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View Full Version : Kicking at balls-system or feel?



Eric.
04-23-2003, 08:44 AM
I was talking to a buddy about 9 ball and what is the difference between good players. All things being equal, we agreed that breaking and kicking ability is where you get the winning edge, which brings me to my point:

Do you use "feel" and guess the kick/angle or do you you a system/systems to find the kick?

I use systems. I'm one of these screwballs that like to try figure out kicks "mathamatically" rather than know it by Rote. Depending on the kick, I use a modifed version of the "Corner 5", (2) end rail kick systems, and the old "measure the angle" 1 rail kick. I find that knowing the extended lines of the kick helps in making the kick when a ball lies on one of the routes.

As a side note, can anyone help me with a system for this kick:

START(
%Ac1Q4%Bk5P2%Cl2R9%Dl0Q2%Ek8F6%Fe9P6%Ih1O6%Jj2O0%K i8U8%LJ9^9
%Nk6T6%Pg9S2%Wi3G9%XC7X7%[D9Y7%\M4[2%]N8Z9%^f9S9
)END

I was wondering if anyone has a good system when kicking into the side rail first, with the CB in that 1/4 of the table.


Eric

Kato
04-23-2003, 08:53 AM
Feel. I've never felt the urge to learn systems. I learned one system that Voodoo taught me for banking, we never got to the kicks. It's gotta be easy 'cause lord knows I ain't that smart.

Kato

Tom_In_Cincy
04-23-2003, 08:53 AM
Eric,

I use a Rote system that has been pretty reliable for me for the last 15 or so years. I learned it quite by accident. I was practicing One Pocket 2 rail banks.

If you find the Middle between the two balls (CB and OB) and its represented by "A" line it up with the pocket center "B" the angles "C" and "D" are parallel to the line "A-B"

WEI Table (http://www.endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/)

START(
%Ac1Q4%Bk5P2%Cl2R9%Dl0Q2%Ek8F6%Fe9P6%Ih1O6%Jj2O0%K i8U8%LJ9^9
%Nk6T6%Pg9S2%Qi5K6%RC3Z0%SP0Y5%TE7U0%UD3V7%VP1[4%Wj5G3%XC4U9
%[P9[6%\g1S6%]D7Z9%^i2M0
)END

Eric.
04-23-2003, 09:09 AM
Actually, IMHO, I'm not too crazy about the Parallel system. The biggest problem with that system(for me anyway /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif) is that the farther the OB is from the second rail, the more you need to compensate otherwise, the kick plays long. I've used that too, but usually for short kicks. Personally, I compesate 1/4 Diamond for each Foot that the OB is off the rail.

The System I have in mind is used by a very good 3 cush player and I'm hoping someone might know it. I know it roughly (kick from middle short rail Diamond to a little past the second Diamond on the long rail goes to the corner pocket). I can't figure out how to adjust when the OB isn't on the corner pocket line.

Eric

Tom_In_Cincy
04-23-2003, 10:40 AM
Eric,

When you figure that one out.. pls pass on the system thanks.. TIC

Steve Lipsky
04-23-2003, 10:53 AM
The only thing resembling a system that I use is for the following kick:

START(
%AE7D6%Bj4Q4%Cl7T3%Dm1R4%Ec9Q6%Fe5R1%If3P5%Jj2O0%K j5U2%Nk1R8
%Pg9S2%QA8B0%UE9F1%V]2[1%WG2F0%X]2Z8%[^5Z7%\g1S6
)END

When trying to kick to make the 1, I aim (with feel) to scratch in the corner pocket (A). I then hit the kick quite hard, which shortens the angle slightly (the red arrow).

I find this "system" to be quite effective for making balls that are close to the pocket, but not exactly in line with the pocket.

- Steve

DSAPOLIS
04-23-2003, 10:53 AM
Eric,
When judging kicking systems, it is also important to note that a lot of players miss kicks due to not taking cue ball width into consideration. The cue ball is much wider than the line, and this effects the angle of deflection, as does spin. When setting up a diagram, the line should represent the center of the cue ball or object ball. Also, when using a kick such as the one you illustrated, it is helpful to identify what needs to be accomplished. Do you want to kick to make the ball, or are you returning a safety? in this situation, lets say we are playing 9 ball. In the shot you diagrammed, it would be difficult to manipulate the cue ball in such a way to hit the five, and chances are, you would hit the rail above the side pocket, or hit the rail on top of the 5 (coming up short) more times than you'd care to, completely missing the 5, and in a rotation game such as 9 ball, giving up ball in hand. Very low percentage and it violates some rules. With this option:

START(
%Ac1Q4%Bk5P2%Cl2R9%Dl0Q2%Ek8F6%Fe9P6%Ih1O6%Jj2O0%K i8U8%LJ9^9
%Nk6T6%Pg9S2%Wj9H1%XG2[1%[F3[0%\C2Y5%]D4X5%^f9S4%eB2a0
)END
We can either hit the 5 ball in the way diagrammed, and if we are off on our calculation, we still run the chance of hitting the rail above the five, and then contacting the 5. Or, if we are off to the other, pay attention to the green arrow in this diagram:

START(
%Ac1Q4%Bk5P2%Cl2R9%Dl0Q2%Ek8F6%Fe9P6%Ih1O6%Jj2O0%K i8U8%LJ9^9
%Nk6T6%Pg9S2%Wj9H1%XG2[1%Ys1D1%ZG5[1%[F3[0%\C2Y5%]D4X5%^f9S4
%eB2a0
)END

If you try to scratch on this one, you have no choice but to make contact with the 5 ball. This shot requires english, and though it is easier than the original shot that you diagrammed, it is very high percentage (to hit the 5), and that is what should dictate what you will be doing.

Earlier I said that your initial shot violated some rules, and these are the rules.

In studyiung the great Phillipino players such as Reyes, Buatamante, Parica, and ANdam, the first thing you notice about their kicking, is the lines. Also, they take the shortest kick route, and play a high percentage shot to ensure they hit the ball. I would examine all of the players I just mentioned, and study what they do when judging the kick. If placed in a situation such as this, I beleive to simplify the shot, and to make contact with the 5, Efren Reyes would probably do something like this:

START(
%Ac1Q4%Bk5P2%Cl2R9%Dl0Q2%Ek8F6%Fe9P6%Ih1O6%Jj2O0%K i8U8%LJ9^9
%Nk6T6%Pg9S2%Wm2G8%Xs1M9%Yr7O8%Zi4[0%[C3C6%\j9F7%]i0Z7%^g8T1
%eA7a9
)END

In this scenario, we are not only kicking at the 5, we are taking the shortest route, and we are also kicking to make it, as opposed to simply making contact. This is what separates the Phillipino players from the rest of the pack. Even if Efren were to miss this shot, depending on the angle he hits the five, the cue would probably come to rest behind the pack. What system is being used here? A basic diamond sytem. Guys like Bustamante and Reyes keep it simple. In high pressure situations, you really don't have the time or the luxury to do mathematical calculations. Also, all rails react uniquely, and if your feel is off, so will your mathematical calculations. It is a combination of feel, which is determined by what the percentages are in relation to what the player is comfortable doing. By studying what the best players do, you will see a pattern. If anyone is more successful in any area of the game, it is important find out what they are doing to be successful. It comes down to decisions.

Decide what needs to be done
Decide how you are going to do it
Evaluate the outcome
Decide what has worked, and what hasn't worked
Make the necessary adjustments

If anyone is having more success in kicking (or any area of their game), it is because they are making better decisions in all of the above areas, on a daily basis. I spent a lot of time with Francisco Bustamante in Germany, and I learned to watch his eyes when he judges a kick. Evaluate how he looks at it, and adjusts and re-adjusts. Watch what the better players do in different situations, and you'll see there is more than one way to kick, as is evident by the shot you originally diagrammed.

04-23-2003, 11:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> I was talking to a buddy about 9 ball and what is the difference between good players. All things being equal, we agreed that breaking and kicking ability is where you get the winning edge, which brings me to my point:

Do you use "feel" and guess the kick/angle or do you you a system/systems to find the kick?

I use systems. I'm one of these screwballs that like to try figure out kicks "mathamatically" rather than know it by Rote. Depending on the kick, I use a modifed version of the "Corner 5", (2) end rail kick systems, and the old "measure the angle" 1 rail kick. I find that knowing the extended lines of the kick helps in making the kick when a ball lies on one of the routes.

As a side note, can anyone help me with a system for this kick:

START(
%Ac1Q4%Bk5P2%Cl2R9%Dl0Q2%Ek8F6%Fe9P6%Ih1O6%Jj2O0%K i8U8%LJ9^9
%Nk6T6%Pg9S2%Wi3G9%XC7X7%[D9Y7%\M4[2%]N8Z9%^f9S9
)END

I was wondering if anyone has a good system when kicking into the side rail first, with the CB in that 1/4 of the table.


Eric <hr /></blockquote>

What is that susposed to be that we are looking at ??? Im lost.

eg8r
04-23-2003, 11:53 AM
The code you see... [ QUOTE ]
START(
%Ac1Q4%Bk5P2%Cl2R9%Dl0Q2%Ek8F6%Fe9P6%Ih1O6%Jj2O0%K i8U8%LJ9^9
%Nk6T6%Pg9S2%Wi3G9%XC7X7%[D9Y7%\M4[2%]N8Z9%^f9S9
)END <hr /></blockquote> is used to diagram shots on a pool table. Use this link... Wei Table (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/)

If you copy that code above, then click on the link. Once the pool table shows up, hit the paste button and hit ok.

You should see the table layout.

Enjoy,

Eg8r

Eric.
04-23-2003, 12:02 PM
Dave, with all due respect, I disagree with a couple of your points. In the kick you diagrammed:

START(
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%Nk6T6%Pg9S2%Wj9H1%XG2[1%[F3[0%\C2Y5%]D4X5%^f9S4%eB2a0
)END

I think this kick requires alot of sidespin to work. I feel that because of the drastic spin needed, it lowers the "make percentage". The kick I diagrammed is played with a "dead ball" making it more reliable.

I've always used systems to kick. I learned them from 3 cush players who all seem to use several systems for different kicks. Now I am far from the ultimate knowledge on this (maybe some other banned Poster is /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif) but all of their systems seem to work with track lines. For example:

START(
%JP8^8%KK8^6%LP1^7%NL1^3%OQ2^2%Po4Y1%Wj4D9%XK2[0%YJ0U0%ZD1O4
%[q6D6%\Q3Z9%]q8K0%^V8Z9%_D3M9%`T4C7%an2X9
)END

Depending on which track line the OB lies on, is which Diamoned you need to play to. In my example, lets say the OB is hanging in the corner pocketand the CB is corner hooked, you need to play the CB to Diamond 2 (the middle line).

Obviously, this is the basic "Corner 5" system. While this works, there is a slight amount of compensation needed. The point is that alot of accurate systems involve track lines and counting Diamonds. When I said mathamatical I wasn't saying I'll break out a Slide Ruler /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif, just saying that if your CB has a starting number and you add/subtract X amount of Diamonds, you can find the Diamond you need to play to.

I hoping someone has a good "side rail first" system for the times when it is your only way to make a good hit.

Thaks to all you guys for responding.


Eric &gt;wants to kick like a Rockette

Steve Lipsky
04-23-2003, 12:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> I think this kick requires alot of sidespin to work. I feel that because of the drastic spin needed, it lowers the "make percentage".

Eric &gt;wants to kick like a Rockette
<hr /></blockquote>

Eric, one thing I would say about that is that Dave's system involves a "maximum". Maximum systems are, in my opinion, at least as reliable as dead-ball systems.

By a maximum, I mean that you are actually removing spin from the equation, because you are using as much as is possible. In print, it sounds weird, but in practice, it's a valid concept.

Look at the following:

START(
%Gr4D4%HE9G9%Iq1L9%Pq1N7%QC0R6%RC0Q2%SC0O7%TC0K8

)END

Kicking to make the 7 can be a gimme using your personal maximum right-english. Depending on the person's stroke, it will be somewhere between A and C, probably. As long as you know what your maximum is, this shot is almost 100%.

Trying to play the above kick to point D, using only a little bit of english, is where things can go wrong. Now, the spin has become a very important part of the equation - because you almost have to guess how much to use.

Blackjack's shot, as a maximum, is valid in my mind.

- Steve

Eric.
04-23-2003, 01:05 PM
Great point, Steve. I have to agree with ya (and Blackjack) if we're talking about Maximum spin.

As a side note, my experience is that lotsa spin seems to be more consistant with multiple rails, rather than just one rail.

Eric

Rod
04-23-2003, 01:18 PM
Steve,
I use the basic diamond system along with feel. Along the same line of David's knowledgeable post above and your kick as shown. What I do and need to know is where the pockets are. When I know a line to a pocket whether it be one or more rails I adjust that line or speed and english to hit or possibly make the o/b. It is important to make that o/b as big as possible so I want a path that gives me the best option. Sometimes it's into or comming out of that path, like 3 cushion as an example.

Here is another 1 or preferable two rail shot that IMO gives me the best option. I know I'll hit the ball but I plan to make it. A friend and I were playing some cheap sets when he left this. I don't care if it is this game or in a tournament I'll go this way rather than shooting directly at the ball. My sense of feel is much better than trying a bank that IMO is a higher percentage shot.

START(
%GD0I2%HP1Z7%I_8J2%Pr1D7%UD5K3%V]2Z9%Wf6C9%XC6J3%Y^5Z4%Zq2E7
%\e7B9%]r2F5%^f3C3%eC3a1%_b2S7%`g8N8%ar8G4
)END

Since I know where the corner pocket is I adjust with about 1 3/4 tips below med speed so it makes the angle longer. What is amazing he left me almost the identical shot later. I had said earlier I was going to make it and play position. He said, ok lets see you make this one, same results and he shook his head.

In this case the pocket wasn't in line with the shot, just a reference but as you and David illustrated many times it can be. Running english on the two rail in Davids post is the best option if the long to short rail kick isn't available.

Rod

eg8r
04-23-2003, 02:35 PM
Well, Eric I think everyone here is pulling your leg. Let me tell you my honest approach.

I close my eyes real tight (almost till it hurts), and hit the cb REAL hard. That always used to work. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

04-23-2003, 02:57 PM
Why not try it from the short end of the table???

START(
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)END

cheesemouse
04-23-2003, 03:43 PM
Eric,
I used the 'upside down clock off the table bellybutton with quiescent cueball speed system' for kicking but I've never been able to explain it to anyone....LOL...there is also a unfocused eye double vision thingee involving the shaft of your cue that is totally unexplainable....LOL...I'm serious it just doesn't appear that way..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

DSAPOLIS
04-23-2003, 04:02 PM
I understand what you are saying, Eric. The cue ball in my diagram was shown to have the severe English applied, not sure if you saw that, but it obviously has to be used.

The system you use is fine, but check out this sytem and see if it will work. It is a basic

aim= Start minus finish A=(S-F) formula for 3c. I found an excellent example of it located at this site.

http://www4.sympatico.ca/eric.perreault/diamond_system_en.html#1

there are other systems there as well, but this the simplest one to figure out if your head spins with the mathematics.

Eric.
04-24-2003, 07:41 AM
Now we're on the same page, David. The link you found is the Corner 5 or Basic Diamond system. If you notice, each 3rd rail diamond has a "connecting diamond" to the 4th rail. The idea is that if you have an OB on one of these track lines, it's an easy kick. Thanks for your input!

Eric