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L.S. Dennis
04-27-2003, 07:21 PM
I know there's been a lot of talk about the much anticipated US Open later on this year. But I'm just wondering is anybody plannnig on going to the Sands Open in Reno which takes place in June? It's been running at least as long as the the US Open, in fact probably even longer!

Just wondering,

Hopster
04-27-2003, 08:04 PM
Its from june 3rd-8th ? I may go up there for a day or so to watch. I havent been to Reno in about 10 years anyway.

L.S. Dennis
04-27-2003, 10:54 PM
June 3-8 is correct for the pros. The week before that will be the USPPA handicap tournament, so in all there's 2 weeks of pool in that place.

Scott Smith will be the master of cerimoies so as always it'll be a great show! Hotel reservations can be made by calling 1- 800 - Funstay

Sally
04-28-2003, 07:58 AM
Actually, the U.S. Open is going on their 28th year this year, while the Reno tournament has occurred twice a year for the last 17 years.

MikeM
04-28-2003, 09:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote L.S. Dennis:</font><hr> It's been running at least as long as the the US Open, in fact probably even longer!


<hr /></blockquote>

The Sands is played twice a year. They are up to 37 this time so that's "only" 18+ years. Ten years behind the US Open. I've never been but have a couple of tapes from earlier years. Looks like a well run, highly competitive tourney.

MM

L.S. Dennis
04-28-2003, 03:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MikeM:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote L.S. Dennis:</font><hr> It's been running at least as long as the the US Open, in fact probably even longer!


<hr /></blockquote>

The Sands is played twice a year. They are up to 37 this time so that's "only" 18+ years. Ten years behind the US Open. I've never been but have a couple of tapes from earlier years. Looks like a well run, highly competitive tourney.

MM <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for the info on longivity, I stand corrected on the Sand years in operation. Wheather it's 18 or 28 years they both have been running forever! With air fairs so low right about now, maybe it would be a good time for some of you east coasters to hop on a flight and check it out!

It was there that Efen did his famous 'Z' shot against Earl in the finals that will forever go down as one of the most spectacular shots at case game in any tournament finals.

Hope to see you guys there,

Dennis

Photoguy
04-28-2003, 06:04 PM
The Sands Regency Open is a great tournament. Unfortunately, they seem to be at a point where it will not grow. I have talked to the Sands and the people who run it personally, and by the way, they do a great job.

However, since the prize money is low ($10-12K for first compared to $30K at US Open), you attract less big name players . . . travel cost, etc. doesn't make it worth it especially since the bigger named players live more in the East rather than near the West coast. It seems the Sands also keeps the entry fee lower ($100) to attract more players who figure $500 entry at the US Open is too risky. Also, the West coast is not a real pool mecca compared to farther east.

In June, you will usually get Earl, but not December. Santos S., Bustimante and Parica usually show up, but fewer and fewer Filipinos are showing up because if they aren't a U.S. resident, the casino by law, must take 30% for the IRS . . . Efren will not show up anymore because of that. If other major tournaments are not enforcing that (and breaking the law)it puts the Sands at a disadvantage. The Sands isn't willing to budge and risk their gaming license. Also, in December, many of the Filipinos go back home since they are Catholic and Christmas is a huge deal to them. For whatever reason, the Sands is almost always scheduled (or is the WPBA) the same week as a WPBA tourny so you don't get the big name ladies either. Too bad. Personally, I think the Sands Open could be major tournament if the Sands and the people involved were concentrating only on the open, but with the USPPA tourny also going on before the open and the Sands also putting on a bar table tourny a few months later, it's way too much for the Sands small staff to handle.

L.S. Dennis
04-28-2003, 07:48 PM
You're right abount many things. The Sands is at a point where they can't seem to grow and expand for many of the reasons you point out. Not the least of which is it's limited space up in the mezzanine area. Howevere they are to be commended because through thick and thin during all the bad years pool has had they've always been there to provide tournaments for players to play in. The get kudos for that.

The absolute best place to bring this thing to would be the Reno Hilton (the old MGM Grand) with it's miles of convention rooms in the lower level and unlimited amenities provided there. That would be the dream location for a continuing bi-annual affair such a the Sands now provides.

All that being said, The Sands is still a fun place to go to watch some great pool twice a year and there are always several pros who show up time and time again.

Also lots of great action to be seen in the practice room during the wee hours as well!

Fran Crimi
04-28-2003, 09:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Photoguy:</font><hr> but fewer and fewer Filipinos are showing up because if they aren't a U.S. resident, the casino by law, must take 30% for the IRS . . . Efren will not show up anymore because of that. If other major tournaments are not enforcing that (and breaking the law)it puts the Sands at a disadvantage. The Sands isn't willing to budge and risk their gaming license. <hr /></blockquote>

A few years ago, I had to research that law for the WPBA so I'm pretty familliar with the 30% rule. Here's how that works:

If the player is a non-resident from a country that the U.S. has a work treaty with (I've yet to find a country that we don't...maybe Iraq?) and they are earning U.S. dollars as self-employed person, such as pool players in tournaments, then all they need to do is file a form with the IRS to obtain an alien non-resident ID number. I can't exactly remember the form number...I think it may be either a W-7 or W-11. But once they get that ID number then all they have to do is present it to the tournament director and 30% will not be withheld from their prize money.

Obviously, that means the player will have to file a US non-resident tax return at year-end, but I'm sure that they could come up with enough expenses to offset the tournament winnings, or at least show very little year-end income.

So, there's no reason a foreign player should have to have 30% taken from them, but it's up to them to take the necessary steps to get a non-resident ID number.

Both the WPBA and the BCA withhold 30% from foreign non-resident players who do not produce an ID number so this is a common practice that's been going on for years now. They also must withhold 30% from any U.S. citizen who does not present either an SS or tax ID number.

Fran

Photoguy
04-28-2003, 11:20 PM
Fran,
Thanks. Great info. I am going to have to research this further.

L.S. Dennis
04-29-2003, 08:00 AM
Fran,

What you say I beleive if most accurate. I think somewhere in the cobb webbs of my memory I have read something like this before. That being said, the only reason for some of these players not showing up would be a sheduling conflict or the meager $12,000 first prise offered by the Sands.

This might be explained by the paultry $100. entrance fee,
but on the plus side where else in the country can anybody pay just $100. and have a chance to play Earl Strickland or Efren Reyes? I remember in past years you had to be a member of the PBT to get in that tournament and then pay an entrance fee of about $400 just to get in it. I like the low $100 entrance and a tournament that is open to anyone. It gives the average person a chance of a life time to play the best the sport has to offer. Once again KUDOS to the Sands!

Fran Crimi
04-29-2003, 09:24 AM
Another thing these foreign players should be aware of is that just because 30% was withheld from their checks, it doesn't mean they can't get it back. They just have to file a non-resident return for that calendar year and offset the income with expenses that can be documented. I think a lot of the foreign players don't know that they can get the money (or at least most of it) back. They have up to three years to file to recover money withheld or they will lose it.

Fran

Fran Crimi
04-29-2003, 09:42 AM
You'd be surprised, Dennis, to hear of how many foreign players really don't know the law regarding the 30%. It's understandable that they wouldn't know about it because if no one tells them that the money isn't gone for good, how would they know otherwise?

It would be nice if instead of just handing them a check with 30% withheld and saying, hey that's the law, deal with it, that the tournament officials instead would take the time to explain to them what they need to do. Maybe even have the forms on hand for them to file to get their ID numbers for the future, and an explanation of how to get their money back by filing a tax return.

The problem is that somebody in the accounting dept. says to withold 30% from foreign non-residents, and when the checks are handed out, none of the officials know why. All they know is that's what they were told to do.

So, what else are these players supposed to think other than the U.S. gov't is grabbing 30% because they don't live here?

That's why I started researching the law. Everybody was taking 30% out but nobody seemed to know why, other than the fact that it was the law. I wanted to know why.

Fran

Popcorn
04-29-2003, 10:14 AM
I wonder how many players get involved with taxes? Most tournaments deal in cash and don't even want to give you a receipt for your entry. I have had them not even want to take a check. I used to keep records of all my expenses and tournament winnings were so meager anyway, I reported everything I won in tournaments. I forget how my accountant reported it, I would have to pull out an old tax return, but I kept track of the mileage to the tournaments and any expenses that could be contributed to a professional player and gave them to him. Like I say, I am not sure how he used all these figures, as he did my accounting for my other (real) business. What do real pros, that do it for a living, or as a second job do? I wonder if it is worth someone trying to add to their tax return "Professional pool player" and claming various expenses they have regarding their pool playing and how would they do it. I did it because, 1. I was playing in tournaments and winning money and 2. I was in the pool room business which, I guess is related, maybe that is how my accountant made the connection. It would be great if someone could write off all your practice time and mileage to and from the pool room and tournaments. Anyone ever done it besides me? Any accountants out there?