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View Full Version : Another "what would you do?" : just cost me $20



Ross
05-02-2003, 09:19 PM
An hour ago I was playing a set for $20. I was giving the guy the 8, it was hill-hill. First I shot this shot:

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I make the 7, but lose shape and end up here /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif :

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There is less than 1/16th inch between the cue ball and the 8 and also between the 8 and the rail. What would you do? (I will tell you later how I butchered it and lost.)

John G
05-02-2003, 10:03 PM
I'd bump it and try to freeze the 8 and force the other player to shoot away from the 8. A lot of people don't handle those little bumbs well.

Ross
05-02-2003, 11:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote John G:</font><hr> I'd bump it and try to freeze the 8 and force the other player to shoot away from the 8. A lot of people don't handle those little bumbs well. <hr /></blockquote>

John, if I had a 1/2 inch or so gap between the cb and the 8 I might have tried that. (Actually there would be a number of options if I had a 1/2" gap). But with a 1/32 inch or so gap I would have been lucky to avoid a double hit, especially with the 8 just a sliver away from the rail.

I probably could have done the cue swipe where you just swipe the cue straight down across the the face of the cb, barely grazing it. But that is considered illegal by some players and some tourneys.

jbullerjr
05-02-2003, 11:44 PM
If the "swipe" is considerd bad form in your area, I think I would have tried this...

Take your jump-cue (playing cue will work, little harder though), get ALL the chalk off the tip. From a masse' position (from above the cb) shoot a little off the contact line. From your diagram I would say around 7 o'clock.

With no chalk on your cue you should get very little movement from the cb and no real chance of a double hit by going slightly off the contact line.

j.

John G
05-03-2003, 12:54 AM
The balls can be as close as 1/8 of an inch and make a legal hit, but if in your area people don't allow it then the only other option I can see would be to thin the 8 with low inside and try to put the cue ball on or as close to the end rail as possible. When you can't do anything else give them distance.

At least they would have a long nearly straight shot with only 1/2 a cue ball. You are in a tough spot here. I set the shot up and tried multiple ways of shooting it. These were the only way that gave me consistant reasonable results.

The reason I'd use a draw stroke would be to allow me to hit the cue ball a little firmer and still control the speed. The easiest way to shoot a shot like this is to pick a target spot on the long rail just brushing the object ball.This helps me to see the shot a lot clearer.

Sid_Vicious
05-03-2003, 07:20 AM
I'd throw "$20 caution to the wind" and play to pinch the CB behind the 9 with a glancing stroke off of the 8. That's a billiard stroke(imo.) You may sell out, but in my opinion my control of the cue ball for the safety behind the 9 is much higher percentage. OR you could do like many do against me, SLAM hard off center on the 8 for a legal hail mary and get lucky. I've lost more cash to sh!t shots like those lately than anything :-( sid

Yuppie
05-03-2003, 07:50 AM
What Sid has in mind is what I would have done. Just play safe and try to get as much distance between the CB and the OB hopefully freezing the CB to the far rail. You may not get a nice a shot, but your oponent certainly could get tougher and tougher shots until he/she messes up and you win the game.

Popcorn
05-03-2003, 08:18 AM
I would do the obvious thing of thinning off the 8 and leave him long. I would also at the same time try to billiard the 9 ball closer to the rail moving it into a little harder spot for him to get position on. It is hard to tell from the drawing, but you may even get lucky and slip behind the nine, snookering him. I'll tell you, he doesn't have to like the shot he is going to be left with, You may still win this game yet.

Ross
05-03-2003, 09:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I would do the obvious thing of thinning off the 8 and leave him long. I would also at the same time try to billiard the 9 ball closer to the rail moving it into a little harder spot for him to get position on. <hr /></blockquote>
Remember I was spotting him the 8.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>
It is hard to tell from the drawing, but you may even get lucky and slip behind the nine, snookering him. I'll tell you, he doesn't have to like the shot he is going to be left with, You may still win this game yet. <hr /></blockquote>

It is very difficult to get over to area of the 9 without a jacked-up masse. Set it up on a table and try it. You don't need a drawing. The 8 ball is about 1/16th inch or less from the long rail, the cue ball is exactly lined parallel, 1/16th inch or less from the 8.

Fran Crimi
05-03-2003, 09:29 AM
Ross, the way the diagram looks, it looks like you can thin the 8 with the cb, hitting the side rail and then coming to rest on the bottom rail. If that's not the case, then I would probably shoot the cb with extreme low right, with a kill stroke, with the objective of bringing the cb to rest on top of the 9, leaving him long or having to shoot over a ball. The 8 would come off the rail and probably land in the center, near the head spot.

I would shoot that shot with a very short bridge length and a very flat hand, kind of like a nip draw shot, but without jacking up.

Fran

Popcorn
05-03-2003, 09:39 AM
I am sorry, I forgot he was getting the 8. I like
Ms. Crimi's solution then.

L.S. Dennis
05-03-2003, 09:58 AM
Ross,

I just went out to my billiard room/garage and set this shot up several times hitting it in everyway immaginable.

First of all forget all this swiping and bumping not realistic options. The only thing to do here is what Fran suggests, hitting it thin with a little inside and try to leave the cue ball down at the end rail and as straight as possible. If he can make the shot and draw all the way back he deserves to win the game. If not you should win it.

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L.S. Dennis
05-03-2003, 10:06 AM
By the way, tonight I intend to ask Gene Miller an established tournament director of many years as to the legality of the 'swipe concept' as I'm not thoughly convinced that it is legal and proper.

Ross
05-03-2003, 10:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote L.S. Dennis:</font><hr> Ross,

If he can make the shot and draw all the way back he deserves to win the game. <hr /></blockquote>

L.S. - see note to Popcorn above.

John G
05-03-2003, 10:39 AM
You may be correct. It might not be legal in 9 ball under current rules, but the shot comes up in one pocket often enough to know it. The easiest way to perform this is to hold the cue just behind the ferrule with your fingers and lift quickly. Dependant on how well see it's possible to have the balls extremely close together and not foul.

Sid_Vicious
05-03-2003, 12:03 PM
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Seems elementary to keep it simple(KISS.) One thing to make happen, and with the bottom english you get both more needed angle off the long rail and a tough of rolling action(natural IMO) from the 8. My thoughts would be simply on getting to the space behind the 9, the 8 would be a Christmas gift to myself if it doubled into tougher shape if I missed the CB pinch...sid

Ross
05-03-2003, 12:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> START(
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Seems elementary to keep it simple(KISS.) One thing to make happen, and with the bottom english you get both more needed angle off the long rail and a tough of rolling action(natural IMO) from the 8. My thoughts would be simply on getting to the space behind the 9, the 8 would be a Christmas gift to myself if it doubled into tougher shape if I missed the CB pinch...sid <hr /></blockquote>

Sid, I don't see how it is possible to get the cb to the side rail like you diagrammed unless you are going to do a hell of a masse. The tangent line off the 8 actually goes to the outside points on the two corner pockets and the cb is too close to the 8 to cut it at all. Try it with the clearances I had and let me know what you find.

So far the best suggestions I've seen are:

1. Just try to roll it down as close to the far end rail as possible and leave a long but highly makeable shot.

2. Much better, I think: Fran's idea of using a nip draw off the 8 to get the cb to roll directly toward the 9. I just tried this and this seemed to work the best of any of the options, since it brought the 8 to the middle of the table (lengthwise) and by aiming to bump the 9 I had a good chance of leaving a jacked up shot, or if lucky, a snooker. I had to practice the nip action a couple of times to get the feel for it. It is easy to foul with the draw by having the side of the cue stick catch the 8 ball as the 8 comes quickly off the rail.

3. I found another approach as well that is much easier to execute than it sounds. Stand over the cue and 8 from that side of the table. Using an almost completely vertical cue, just nip down on the far side of the cb directly across from the 8. The cb bumps the 8 lightly and dies and leaves the same shot for the opponent. Or if you bump it a little too hard the 8 comes off the rail following the cue ball and they tend to marry. Of course your opponent will probably be able to shoot you safe again, but you are unlikely to sell out on this shot.

All-in-all, the nip draw seems to have the best balance of being do-able and aggressive. My opinion only, of course.

Sid_Vicious
05-04-2003, 08:57 AM
These are the kinds of positions that ONLY the player at the table really sees. You are certainly right, there's not enough room at 1/16th of an inch for my shot, and the nip shot would be the most logical and safe way to go.

Anybody who read this before edit...I tried my wild shot on the home table, and it was far to hard, close if not impossible. Funny how things look from the rail. It don't always work as it seems it would...sid

L.S. Dennis
05-04-2003, 10:06 AM
Ross,
Unless I missed it you never did tell what your final shot was and how you lost! Just curious.

Ross
05-04-2003, 05:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote L.S. Dennis:</font><hr> Ross,
Unless I missed it you never did tell what your final shot was and how you lost! Just curious. <hr /></blockquote>

Damn you, Dennis, for remembering to ask! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I thought everyone would forget so I was putting this answer off as long as I could since my shot was a total brain fxxx. I tried to use bottom right and shoot toward the near short rail like this:
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The idea was to leave him a long cut on the 8. But it had to be shot so soft I didn't really get the draw on it I wanted to. The cb caught the inside of the point of the corner pocket, rolled across the face of the pocket looking like it was going to settle and leave him "point" hooked, paused, and then went "plop" for the scratch. Hell of a safety, huh?

Fran Crimi
05-04-2003, 07:38 PM
Since we're tearing you apart, Ross...let's continue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

As far as what you did on the 8 ball shot, you shouldn't feel like you had a brain fxxx. It doesn't happen that often where the two balls are arranged as such so you can't drive the cb to the same rail. That's pretty unusual.

Now if you really want to talk about a brain fxxx, I'm sure Dennis and Popcorn will agree that you went to sleep on the 7 ball. Was it nap time for you? Were you nipping at the booze? Did you forget where "low" is located on the cb?? How did you wind up like that?

Haha! Just ribbing you, but as I'm sure you know, what you did on the 7 ball is what cost you the 20 bucks. The 8 ball was just an indication that you didn't get away with your mistake this time.

Hey, we all do it.

Fran

Ross
05-04-2003, 09:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Since we're tearing you apart, Ross...let's continue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
As far as what you did on the 8 ball shot, you shouldn't feel like you had a brain fxxx. It doesn't happen that often where the two balls are arranged as such so you can't drive the cb to the same rail. That's pretty unusual.<hr /></blockquote>
Yes, I think very unusual. I looked at the setup for a while and then started worrying because I had NO idea what to do. I usually can see a decent safety at least, even if it is a difficult one. In this setup, I couldn't even see what I considered a half-way decent safety and no offensive shot.

[ QUOTE ]
Now if you really want to talk about a brain fxxx, I'm sure Dennis and Popcorn will agree that you went to sleep on the 7 ball. Was it nap time for you? Were you nipping at the booze? Did you forget where "low" is located on the cb?? How did you wind up like that?<hr /></blockquote>

Both napping and nipping (actually, maybe guzzling is the word...). And why didn't someone tell me before that you can put BACKSPIN on the cue ball?! I thought that was cheating. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

You are exactly right - the problem was with the 7 ball shot. I'm not sure what happened to the "low" on the cb. I was mentally tired, had missed some shots earlier that are usually easy for me and my confidence was not where it should have been. I got into that "don't make a mistake" mentality. In this case I was thinking, "don't overhit the cb" and I think I let up on my stroke at the last minute.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm sure you know, what you did on the 7 ball is what cost you the 20 bucks.<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, that and the easy shots I dogged earlier. I could have put this guy away 2 or 3 times in this set!

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, we all do it.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, can't win them all. And if you do start winning most of them, you just have to give up a bigger spot!

jbullerjr
05-06-2003, 03:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> 3. I found another approach as well that is much easier to execute than it sounds. Stand over the cue and 8 from that side of the table. Using an almost completely vertical cue, just nip down on the far side of the cb directly across from the 8. The cb bumps the 8 lightly and dies and leaves the same shot for the opponent. Or if you bump it a little too hard the 8 comes off the rail following the cue ball and they tend to marry. Of course your opponent will probably be able to shoot you safe again, but you are unlikely to sell out on this shot.

<hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Isn't that what I said/posted?

J.

Ross
05-06-2003, 01:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jbullerjr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> 3. I found another approach as well that is much easier to execute than it sounds. Stand over the cue and 8 from that side of the table. Using an almost completely vertical cue, just nip down on the far side of the cb directly across from the 8. The cb bumps the 8 lightly and dies and leaves the same shot for the opponent. Or if you bump it a little too hard the 8 comes off the rail following the cue ball and they tend to marry. Of course your opponent will probably be able to shoot you safe again, but you are unlikely to sell out on this shot.

<hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Isn't that what I said/posted?

J. <hr /></blockquote>

Oops, so you did! I didn't quite understand the masse angle your were describing in your post so I guess I kind of glossed over it. But now I see you were saying the same thing that I did. I guess it just means that great minds think alike! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

05-06-2003, 03:10 PM
Ross... yuk! not a very good position to work from, certainly no oportunities for offence. Since the 9 is pretty much irrelevant here the best option I can visualize is actually a shot I once saw in a pro snooker match. I believe it is still a legal shot here.

Lay your cue across the table as in diagram "A". Stand above the 8 holding the cue with thumb and forefinger just behind the ferrul and back of wrist resting on the table. This is not a swipe shot but rather a quick but light forward flick of the wrist. By using strong lefthand side the deflection carries the tip away from the 8 so there is no chance of cue tip foul. If executed properly there should however be a soft double hit between the cueball and the 8 leaving both both balls still relatively close together. You'll no doubt face another safe back at ya but at least you won't have sold out.

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05-06-2003, 03:26 PM
yo, all you had to do was shoot the 7ball with a lil draw, the cue would have came off the rail and gotten right behind the 8ball, and then you draw back to the 9ball game over. Or since you had gotten stuck right on the 8ball, i would have pushed the cb softly dead in the 8ball making extremely sure that neither ball goes anywhere. or just push the cb right into the eight or push it directly to the other rail.

that situation is really simple, to get out of, you just did'nt play the 7ball the right way. next time you know draw the 7ball, keep and angle on the 8ball and again draw off the 8ball and you good for the nine either way.

Yuppie
05-06-2003, 03:34 PM
What about safing off the 8ball, leaving him with almost the same shot?

Basically, softly hit almost straight down on the CB, sending the 8 to the rail stopping dead the CB.

Would that work?

Ross
05-07-2003, 09:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob Perkins:</font><hr> Ross... yuk! not a very good position to work from, certainly no oportunities for offence. Since the 9 is pretty much irrelevant here the best option I can visualize is actually a shot I once saw in a pro snooker match. I believe it is still a legal shot here.

Lay your cue across the table as in diagram "A". Stand above the 8 holding the cue with thumb and forefinger just behind the ferrul and back of wrist resting on the table. This is not a swipe shot but rather a quick but light forward flick of the wrist. By using strong lefthand side the deflection carries the tip away from the 8 so there is no chance of cue tip foul. If executed properly there should however be a soft double hit between the cueball and the 8 leaving both both balls still relatively close together. You'll no doubt face another safe back at ya but at least you won't have sold out.

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Bob, thanks, I'll try this. (As I understand it: you are facing the end of the cue, reaching over the cb, back of wrist on table, forefinger and thumb holding end of cue, and flicking the cue toward you into cb). I've remember seeing this done before somewhere but I never got around to practicing it.

05-08-2003, 08:10 PM
Ross... you understand it right, and actually it's quite a controlable shot. You do have to take care though to hit it with side away from the angle that your shooting to avoid the cueball kicking back into the tip and fouling. I remember it was Alain Robidoux from Quebec who I first saw make such a shot. It was during the team world snooker championships quite a few years ago. The shot is far more likely to come up in snooker with the the larger tables and more common safety play. Being myself somewhat vertically challenged I have had the rare occassion to use it myself. Always worthwhile to have a couple extra tricks in your bag. ...Bob

Rod
05-08-2003, 08:22 PM
Bob,
After reading that if I understand correctly your not holding on to the butt end of the cue? Depending on the rules BCA says you have to hold on with both hands. I'll have to look up the rule. If it was TE I don't know their ruling. If than can be done in Snooker it would save me to. A 6' wide table is a long reach for me.

Rod

05-10-2003, 08:53 AM
Hi Rod... Good to connect with you again. As I diagramed it for Ross it was with the but end of the cue resting on the opposite long rail and you hold the cue with the thumb and forefinger just below the ferrule. Normally the shot would be done with the butt simply resting on the table surface as long as there's room.(not a problem on most snooker tablesBy resting the back of your wrist on the table it creates a stable base for the shot. As for holding the cue with both hands, I'm sure that would also be possible but it would basically just be a case of "fudging" it to satisfy the rules. ...Bob