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View Full Version : Hey Scott, what about the cueball last?



bluewolf
05-06-2003, 11:14 AM
The other one was getting too long.

I was having trouble with those long cuts. Then I noticed yesterday if i shot low, since it is easy to see the center of the ball at the bottom, they started zinging in.

I thought that it was just I was having trouble seeing the center of the cueball.

But i have noticed for a long time on those long shots, that my preshot is okay, but when I took my eye off of that cueball and locked onto the ob, I missed the shot and sometimes, Lord forbid, I even hit the ob on the wrong side of the ball.

So after missing a couple of fairly easy long cuts, I went back to going low on the ball and they started falling in the pocket. Only this time, I also realized I was looking at the cb last.

I can see the angle of the shot. I can see where the cb is supposed to hit the ob, but when I take my eyes off that cb, and locked onto the ob, i hit the wrong place on the cb and miss the shot.

Now I have been cleared by scott of having a decent stroke, but even my stroke does weird stuff when I lock onto that ob.

On short shots, I look at the ob last. i mean, the pocket is pretty big and if a person has it ligned up right,well the short ones arent too bad, unless it is a hard cut.

So am doing it this way. Just want to see if it is a quick fix and I have hit on something.

Like I said, my eyes are weird anyway. Nystagmus, astigmatism worse in the left, left a little more dominant but not much more. And on any given day, what was true of one eye flips to the other one like dominance, fuzzy vision or whatever.

Anyway, I was kind of excited when I got those long cuts in. Guess it just takes time to see if this new way keeps working.

Guess I better go back and practice somemore because when ww comes home, he REALLY drills me on those long cuts.

laura

bluewolf
05-06-2003, 11:23 AM
it kind of makes sense why I lag good. I go up and down a couple of times to see the speed of the cloth. Then I adjust the speed of my stroke and the length of the bridge accordingly. But I do not take my eyes off of the cue ball.

A typical lag for me after a couple of practice ones is with in six inches of the rail.

It also comes back straight 90% of the time.Oviously, I never agree to the flip /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ras314
05-06-2003, 01:11 PM
I have heard many arguments over this. My guess is if you have really drilled the strokes Scott showed you into "muscle memory" you should often make even a long thin cut without looking at either ball. Should be interesting to try. Percentage will go up for most people if you focus on the ob. IMO.

Aboo
05-06-2003, 01:25 PM
I truly think this is different for almost everyone. If I focus on the cue-ball last, I tend to miss hit the object ball a lot. Another guy on my team (sl5) says he almost always looks at the cue-ball last, but it depends on the shot. When asked to further clarify, he just says that sometimes he doesn't, lol.

bluewolf
05-06-2003, 01:39 PM
That is what everybody told me like a drone.ob last..ob last...ob last.

I did this by accident. It is just on long cuts.I am also not good enough to do english on long shots, just do that on short ones. On short shots it does not seem to matter much which ball I look at last because they are easy.

I have only done this for two days but so far 50% shots became 70% shots, 25% shots became 50% shots. Still cant do the 85-90 degree ones (that will be a task for later) but as long as I get so I can do the med hard long cuts, I am happy. It was really ticking me off.

Seeing the shot and I knew it should be easy and when it would not go in, sometimes I had a temper tantrum. It is a wonder I did not break my cue as hard as I hit the balls when I was mad.

I tried so hard to figure this out for so long. Things were fine on the preshot, but as soon as I locked onto that ob, strange stuff happened.Living with an apa7 look at ob last diehard, I did not dare to do it a different way. I just kept missing and getting mad and just found this out by accident.

My apa7 hubbie does not like it I am sure, but if I can make those long shots, I am easier to live with.

Some people think that i should not be working on hard stuff due to playing less than a year. I do work on the easy shots of course so I wont miss something stupid, but I want to make the other shots on the table and am very stubborn and will not give up.

Laura

bluewolf
05-06-2003, 01:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> I have heard many arguments over this. My guess is if you have really drilled the strokes Scott showed you into "muscle memory" you should often make even a long thin cut without looking at either ball. Should be interesting to try. Percentage will go up for most people if you focus on the ob. IMO. <hr /></blockquote>

I can make the long shot better with my eyes closed than I can if I look at the object ball last. Do my preshot, the cb is the last thing i saw, that is why I think.

Laura

Rod
05-06-2003, 02:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But i have noticed for a long time on those long shots, that my preshot is okay, but when I took my eye off of that cueball and locked onto the ob, I missed the shot and sometimes, Lord forbid, I even hit the ob on the wrong side of the ball.

<hr /></blockquote>

Laura,
That has NOTHING to do with looking at either ball last. LOL Me thinks your alignment was off. Then just another side effect, your stroke could go anywhere if your not seeing the target correctly.

Rod

Popcorn
05-06-2003, 03:30 PM
You may need to get down a little lower on the ball to bring both balls more into your line of vision. If you are too high, you may be moving your head in the process of looking back and forth. You just want to flick your eyes, not your body.

Sid_Vicious
05-06-2003, 03:31 PM
I read in a pool instructional once that when you are making a stroke shot, that looking at the CB last is the avenue to take because you are striving to make absolutely certain that you hit the CB and the stroke exact. I personally count those long thin cuts into this category since you have little to no room for squirt or swerve down the length of the CB roll. Not to try and sound like Patrick here, but my 3rd eye does maintain the picture of the OB and its contact point during the stroke...sid~~~believes ALL rules have bending opportunities at times, which seperates the ladies from the girls and the men from the boys

bluewolf
05-06-2003, 03:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You may need to get down a little lower on the ball to bring both balls more into your line of vision. If you are too high, you may be moving your head in the process of looking back and forth. You just want to flick your eyes, not your body.

<hr /></blockquote>

Thanks popcorn. ww says I am low but not excessively. I am thinking that my head is about 6 inches above the cue.

Laura

05-06-2003, 04:51 PM
I have always been of the mind that you should have your eyes on the object ball last. In any case it may be that you are not stroking straight unless you watch your cuestick go through the ball--thus your better results with eye on cueball last. Heres a drill that I have found helpful. Place two object balls on the table about one inch apart. Place your cueball a few inches in front of the two balls with its center in line with the gap between the two balls. Line up a shot on the cueball with your stick passing through the center of the gap between the two object balls. fiddle it until your lined up with a shot (mark the table so you can set it up over and over again) and shoot the shot. If you're shooting straight, you will not move either object ball on the stroke, and your cuestick will be exactly perpendicular to the tangent line of the two balls after the stroke. <font color="black"> </font color>

caedos
05-06-2003, 07:20 PM
I also tend to think that it may be an alignment issue. Almost everyone on the planet has good natural alignment. We drive in a lane, point at objects, throw things, etc... Something to think about: If I understand you correctly you are experimenting with changing your eye pattern on the lower percentage shots ("long cut shots" I believe you said). This does two things immediately, and both are undesireable if you want to pocket the ball: 1) You change your personal rhythm, and 2)your brain is more analytical than is optimal for playing with any degree of success. The only time I teach an eye pattern with the cue ball (or contact point on the cue ball) being the last thing you look at is when the cue ball is the more important or most sensitive ball (maybe the break shot, the jump, the masse, and maybe a finesse shot). If you set up to the cue ball with good mechanics, have faith in them. The cue ball won't move until you hit it, and you should be set up with your cue tip close to it. A mechanically sound stroke has no choice but to strike where you set it as you move to finish your stroke. Your eye target when you stroke (for most of your shots) should be out at the object ball... however you see that (cue ball line, ghost ball, an aimpoint, or some other direct reference to the target in question).

My .02

Carl Oswald
BCA - Referee and Instructor
The Billiard Studio___________Plano, TX
Cue Tech Poolschool________Richardson, TX

bluewolf
05-06-2003, 07:44 PM
Good suggestions all of them.I know it is often hard to tell without watching a persons stroke and alignment.

Looking at the cb last made the success rate go up a lot. I was also having trouble holding the image of the shot in my mind, like I would see the angle and where the cue ball was supposed to be, but when I got around to the shot, I had lost the visual image to a slight degree, which was enough on a long one to result in a miss.

So am now practicing keeping the image in my mind until I get down on the shot. Then I am lined up and my cue is where it is supposed to be on the cb, then I dont have to keep saying 'there is the shot, there is the cb(ghostball)'in my mind and can just stroke and shoot.

When I say the visualization mantra until I am down and lined up, I can shoot it better even looking at the ob, but better still with the cb last.

I have practiced the cueball through the balls but not at such a short distance. Now if I could do that on the lag, ie cb comes between the balls right before it gets back to the home rail, that would be awesome. Thanks, I think I will try that.

Laura

ras314
05-07-2003, 12:45 AM
Ok, going to expose my ignorance here. Two things come to mind, 1. your hit on the cb may be changing when you focus on the ob and 2. it is possable for the cb to "throw" the ob a bit, especially when the angle is around 35-45 deg and the hit is slow (lag speed).

For 1. try the speed drill while focusing on the spot where you hit the back rail, see if it comes back straight.

For 2. Try outside english with a level cue or a faster speed to reduce throw when taking the shot.


START(
%AN7O4%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM1I6%I L9O2%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg3I8%R]2_0%UD3C9%VL7I3%WN0J0
%Xf5I8%eA6a3
)END

This should be a high percntage shot.

bluewolf
05-07-2003, 04:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> Ok, going to expose my ignorance here. Two things come to mind, 1. your hit on the cb may be changing when you focus on the ob and 2. it is possable for the cb to "throw" the ob a bit, especially when the angle is around 35-45 deg and the hit is slow (lag speed).

For 1. try the speed drill while focusing on the spot where you hit the back rail, see if it comes back straight.

For 2. Try outside english with a level cue or a faster speed to reduce throw when taking the shot.

This should be a high percntage shot. <hr /></blockquote>

1. Yes, my hit or aim on the cb changes when I look at the ob. Now I have nystagmus which is jerking eye muscles for what that is worth. Not sure if that matters on that. Would have to ask an eye doc bout that one.

I do not come up on the shot and do follow through and freeze. Do I have a minor head bob? Dont know. I had an all day lessong with scott. He fixed a couple of minor things in my stroke, said I had a nice stance, good bridge etc. he comes here in june, I will watch my tape with him. I know that moving my eyes back and forth so much makes my eyes hurt.

2. The ball comes back straight on the lag at least 80% of the time on a level table.

This is what I think. Lots of experience here. These guys, many, have hit in so many shots, I believe that they have literally memorized many of the angles on the table plus other knowlege of superb shape and lots of other things, so much knowlege that some of it is over my head. Someone said I would not understand it until i reached sl6. I say balony.It will take much longer LOL.

How could i possibly have a level in three years that people with 30 years of experience have.

I have played for less than a year and did not come out of the womb stroking a cue. Right now, I have to use some somewhat unorthodox techniques to zip in those long shots.I believe in time as I gain experience, the tricks will drop off of my play.

oe- I know throw exists but not seeing it as much of a factor to miss the long shot. Although someone did tell me to hit a little thinner thsn it lookd,so perhaps that is throw.

No english on the long shot as that would just add another complication right now. mostly bottom and will do centerball or top when i am a little better at this.To use eng on long shots requires, imo, a very good player. It takes a good player to take a shot say that is natural with centerball or oe, then use ie to get the right shape, especially on a long shot.

Do use oe for position on short shots or when I want the cb to go to the other end of the table..

What I want to do is this. If i have bad shape on the short shots, go long and then come back down to the other end for better position on the short ones. Then maybe I wont have to play safe so much.. Really do keep english to a minimum.When I want the cb to go to the middle of the table, off an easy cheat the pocket shot, use ie, because it typically does not run as much. Do use draw with tangent and the rails and varying stroke speed much more than english.

Laura

stickman
05-07-2003, 05:31 AM
Laura, I do just the opposite. I tend to shoot CB last on shorter, easier shots, often where cueball placement is more critical. I revert to OB last on the longer, thin cuts, long banks, etc. where the shot is more critical. Of course, I'm also a firm believer in doing what works best for you. What works for one, doesn't always work for someone else. I hope you continue to have success with the new technique.

Jim

stickman
05-07-2003, 05:42 AM
Something I've seen many times: A good player lines up on a shot and closes their eyes and makes it. This causes me to believe that alignment is of primary importance and preference of CB last or OB last is of secondary importance. Something to think about.

bluewolf
05-07-2003, 06:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> Something I've seen many times: A good player lines up on a shot and closes their eyes and makes it. This causes me to believe that alignment is of primary importance and preference of CB last or OB last is of secondary importance. Something to think about.
<hr /></blockquote>

I am not a good player. But assuming that the shot is lined up correctly, I will get the shot in with my eyes closed more often than looking at the cb or the ob. Imo, what this means is it is not the stroke, alignment, ability to see the angle that is the problem. What is making me miss the shot when I have the eyes open is that strange organ between my ears.

That is why so many good players say to see the balls going into the pocket. It short circuits negative sel talk such as ' I will try but might not make it'. Other than good technique, I believe that confidence is very important.

From a newby, just how I see it.I lost a lot of matches early on because of negative self talk.

Laura

pooltchr
05-07-2003, 06:28 AM
Laura,
If you can make the shot with eyes closed, but not when looking at your target, maybe you are making a minor adjustment based on the way things look once you get set to shoot. The angles look different once you are down on the shot. What you see at address when standing in front of the shot, and again about mid-way down when you place your bridge hand are pretty solid looks at the angle. It will look different when you are down on the shot. Just another opinion from another perspective, but something to think about. My wife has finally learned after much admonishment from me not to adjust her shot after she is down on the table. If it looks wrong, stand up and start over.
Steve

Sid_Vicious
05-07-2003, 07:15 AM
"My wife has finally learned after much admonishment from me"

How'd you phrase/word that she was still adjusting, say for the third time much less the umteenth time? I have NEVER had any flavor of significant other who would stay the least bit calm, usually there was a cue put down on the table and somebody quit for the day. Just asking...sid

pooltchr
05-07-2003, 08:29 AM
VERY CAREFULLY!!!!! LOL

John G
05-07-2003, 09:11 AM
Why don't you just set up a camara and record yourself in the same manner as the original tape and then compare them. You should be able to see even subtle differences if in something has changed.

bluewolf
05-07-2003, 12:46 PM
After reading ccb, this morning went to the pooltable.

Everything was going in. It did not matter if I looked at the cb,ob,x,y, or z ball. Nothing mattered. Just couldnt miss hardly.90% or so going in even the hard ones I do not make very often.

Now later I had a conversation and then went and played pool again. Playing bad.I realized I had udder stuff in my brain from the conversation. Then started saying this mantra right before the shot, shot good again.

Cant explain it cept maybe when I have udder stuff in my mind, I shoot bad.Maybe the mantra kept the udder stuff away from my pool. Not sure.

I am though more concious of my stroke and alignment as a result of everyone's suggestions so thanks again.

Laura

bluewolf
05-07-2003, 12:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Laura,
My wife has finally learned after much admonishment from me not to adjust her shot after she is down on the table. If it looks wrong, stand up and start over.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

If I get down and have to change something, that means my alignment is now not right and I will miss the shot. If I have to change anything, I have to stand back up, see the shot again, and step back into the shot again or I will miss it nearly all of the time.

Laura