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View Full Version : Best strategies for 8-ball at on Valley 7' table



preacherman
05-06-2003, 02:00 PM
I play mostly on a 8ft table - sometimes 9'. Never on the 7' (except last week for a few hours to get the feel of it). I will be playing in the men's singles, and I would like to know the best way to play on these 7' valleys and what strategy to use on them (and against my opponent). One obvious thing is the balls are in more clusters being that the table is smaller. Is strategy different on these small tables? Any input is appreciated.

Jim
www.geocities.com/pool4christ (http://www.geocities.com/pool4christ)

Predator314
05-06-2003, 02:37 PM
I try not to change my strategy too much when playing on a bar box. The balls will be more clusted, but the pockets are usually more forgiving allowing me to pull off harder shots.

I learned from a friend (and really great player) to play 8-ball kind of like one pocket. He taught me to play safe a lot more to move my balls out in the open while keeping the opponents balls in a cluster. Then when things are clear, go for the run. This is a good strategy to use on any size table, but it seems to be really helpful on a bar table where there will be tighter clusters.

cheesemouse
05-06-2003, 02:56 PM
Preacher Man,
The Valley table is notorious for being inconsistant when going from one table to the next even if they are all new out of the box, which is the situation you will probably see in Vegas at the BCA. That new cb may help some if it truely rolls straight but in general these are a few things I try to keep in mind while playing on the Valley 7ft tables: avoid slow rolling any shots if possible and if you do have to shot one soft side the cb as far as is prudent so it doesn't have a chance to start rolling off until the friction takes over, avoid leaving the cueball in situations where you can't cue down on the cueball (i.e, frozen to the rail ), the tables corner pockets are very forgiving so shots you don't think will go, really will go, the tables are designed to speed up the game so it stands to reason that the cueball will scratch way more often than you are used to on a real pool table so don't let whitey go or you will pay the penalty.....Oh, I nearly forgot Valleys with new cloth an balls bank very long so fire your banks too shorten them up...Here's another one; don't try to get to close to your work, just take the easiest window and take the longer shot cause none of them are that long on a 7 footer....

preacherman
05-06-2003, 03:01 PM
This is what I thought would be a possible strategy.
Thanks!

Jim

preacherman
05-06-2003, 10:51 PM
That's it! So far only 2 people have giving input on my question!

Jim

Rod
05-06-2003, 11:47 PM
Cheese covered most of it. I don't find it that much different other than the pockets are buckets. Exception, don't fire any into the side much over 30 degrees or the ball may jaw out. Take dead aim on the sides. The corners are more than forgiving, you can make a ball past another even if there isn't room just hitting more rail before the pocket. Accept longer shots with the right angle. Follow position is usually best, except where draw is the short or simple route. Speed, play with finesse. A bar box can get away from you if it is fast. Like Cheese said the table speeds vary. Don't bank unless you have to. None of these will do you much good unless you experiment a fair amount before Vegas.

Rod

05-06-2003, 11:57 PM
the best input i can give you(as i own a 7 foot table) is when I play one the 9' tables, i realize the pockets on a 7' are much bigger, the pockets are huge! also, it seems that ballspeed changes on the 7 foot tables, on my table they roll much slower. one other thing i do(i dont know if this is common knowledge or what as i am not a great player) but if you sink a ball on the break, it might be better to take the other set of balls if they are less clustered and easier to run out with(probly common sense) anyway, thats the best i can do for you.......sorry if this doesnt help much, but like I said, I am still developing my game and normally only run 2-3 balls at a time /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
GOOD LUCK /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

dardusm
05-07-2003, 01:15 AM
I have played with the new cueballs and like the way they play. They are the same wieght as the object balls and seem to roll straight. As far as 8-ball strategy, keep with standard strategy such as don't attempt to run out unless your pretty sure you can get out. As Larry Scwartz says in his book, everytime you knock one of you balls in and don't get out creates more advantages for your opponent. My final suggestion is to get in as much practice before your match as possible due to the speed of the tables. Generally, they are super fast and take some getting used to.

Darryl

Wally_in_Cincy
05-07-2003, 06:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dardusm:</font><hr> I have played with the new cueballs and like the way they play. They are the same wieght as the object balls and seem to roll straight...... <hr /></blockquote>

OK, where did you get the new cue ball? We need to know badly.

Wally_in_Cincy
05-07-2003, 06:52 AM
Cheese,

You nailed this one pretty good. Good job.

I would reiterate what Rod said also. Watch the side pockets. They can be tight sometimes.

Fred Agnir
05-07-2003, 07:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote preacherman:</font><hr> That's it! So far only 2 people have giving input on my question!

Jim <hr /></blockquote>Ok, you asked for it. Near the end of the tournament, there will only be pretty much one strategy. Run and gun. There won't be many safety battles. In fact, throughout the 9 matches I played last year, I had one safety battle. Anyone who opted for that safety game didn't survive. Safety breaks or soft breaks meant nothing. Run and gun. That's how it is at normal local tournaments (for the winners) and that's how it will be at the Nationals.

Fred

Predator314
05-07-2003, 07:08 AM
Are they using Valley's in Vegas? They should use the Diamond Smart Tables they had in VAlley Forge.

SpiderMan
05-07-2003, 07:57 AM

SpiderMan
05-07-2003, 07:58 AM
You already mentioned one, the issue with clusters. Another change to remember is that there are no "long" shots, therefore you can use a strategy that has you shaping long rail shots to either corner. Also remember that cuts into the sides get difficult when entering the pocket from much thinner than 45 degrees due to the way the openings are shaped. Finally, a big break is a huge advantage, you are much more likely to make a ball on the break on these tables. Playing BCA rules, the table will still be open and one group may have a significant advantage due to table clutter.

SpiderMan

05-07-2003, 11:02 AM

Fred Agnir
05-07-2003, 11:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr>I can't believe you would advise everyone who goes to Vegas to give up the safety game down the straight-away<hr /></blockquote>Careful reading will show that I did not say this.

It's very easy to report factual evidence. And the factual evidence is that the last man standing in barbox 8-ball is always the guy who runs, guns, and gets out. Obviously, if he runs,guns, and misses, he doesn't get out and he doesn't win.

Any serious barbox player wondering what it takes to get to the top level, that's it. The ultimate goal is to run out at every opportunity. It's all nice and fluffy to expound on the romantic safety game in 8-ball, but the winner's circle is full of gunners. It's simple observation. Sure, play within your skill level is fine advice. I'm just saying what will win it, and what to expect in the final days. And safety play isn't going to be much in the conversation. Not in race-to-5-barbox-8-ball.

Does anyone here have a story about the 8-ball Nationals (APA, VNEA, BCA or anything) where the last 64, 128, or even 256 players weren't super runout players?

Fred

cheesemouse
05-07-2003, 11:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> Fred, all of this run and gun stuff depends on what SL you are. I can't believe you would advise everyone who goes to Vegas to give up the safety game down the straight-away. 'Bar haks', as you would say. Unless you are playing Shorty or some of the other greats, all I can say here is to always keep the safety game in the back of your mind Preacherman. Especially if you are not having a good shooting day. Play safe until your game hopefully returns. IMO, thinking gun and run is the MOST stupidest thing you could do.

WW - doesn't really want of offend Fred, but just take a few potshots at him every once in a while for fun. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

WW,
I don't mean to speak for Fred but I think I know what he means. I have experienced it over and over. In the later rounds of any 8-ball event the cream has floated to the top and the end result is; if you choice safety play when there is the offensive option still availible you WILL go DOWN.....sorry but that's the way it is. Of course one can always win a game with that great safety but you must be in the RUN AND GUN mode or you won't get far against the CREAM...

Rod
05-07-2003, 11:27 AM
That's pretty much it Fred. I know people go there to have fun and play, good for them. Fun is short lived up there, it's a war! Hand to hand combat in the trenches, blood and guts spilled. LOL You might "survive" the first few battles but you haven't won the war. You might feel proud of your 180mm Howitzer break, that is until an Apache gunship fires a rocket in the stack. It just doesn't get any better, it's like a nightmare! ha ha ha Seriously most that go there are armed with a 22 rifle or worst. The old sneak and take a shot offers only a very short life expectancy! Have fun but treat your opponent as a champion because he very well may be one!

Rod

Steve Lipsky
05-07-2003, 11:27 AM
WW, all I think Fred was saying was that the top finishers in these tournaments are usually very strong players. They will beat you with offense. Playing nip-and-tuck games in those later rounds is a questionable strategy.

Preacher was asking for advice on how best to play out there, and Fred was just telling him to think offensively. If he doesn't, he may win a few matches, but he won't finish near the top.

If you engage in safety battles when you are in control of the table, and your opponent is running out when he is, you're gonna be in deep trouble pretty quickly.

I will admit that I think Fred went a teensy-bit overboard, though. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

- Steve

Rod
05-07-2003, 11:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I will admit that I think Fred went a teensy-bit overboard, though. <hr /></blockquote>

Steve, LOL Then I guess I wasn't to subtle either! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Fred Agnir
05-07-2003, 11:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr>I will admit that I think Fred went a teensy-bit overboard, though. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>Who, me? Surely not.

Fred &lt;~~~ okay, maybe a little to a lot /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
05-07-2003, 12:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr>

....I have experienced it over and over. In the later rounds of any 8-ball event the cream has floated to the top and the end result is; if you choice safety play when there is the offensive option still availible you WILL go DOWN.....sorry but that's the way it is. Of course one can always win a game with that great safety but you must be in the RUN AND GUN mode or you won't get far against the CREAM... <hr /></blockquote>

On occasions when I have played the higher caliber players in my league or in a tournament, as usual I will get out of line or miss a cluster breakout. I will then play a safety which might work against a player whose ability is about equal to mine. The strong player will then come back with another safety or a bank or a kick which causes me to put my head between my knees and kiss my ass goodbye /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

So I agree with you.

Eric.
05-07-2003, 12:19 PM
WW,

While I do agree with you that you should always keep the safety option in the back of your mind, it won't win you too many games against strong players. I don't know what your experience is with strong barbox 8 Ball players, but it goes like this:

1.Big Break into head ball, drop CB in middle of table.
Look at layout, run out.

2. see #1

You don't see alot of safety play unless it is a really ugly rack. Also, you rarely see someone begin a runout and not get out i.e. leaving 1-2 balls so you can perform Death by Safeties. Based on my own humble experiences, if you don't string racks, you're in trouble.

Eric

Rod
05-07-2003, 12:25 PM
Fred,
I think there are still some weak links at 256 in the singles. After that round the men are left standing. Some used and abused but still standing. LOL

I was telling Scott Lee about playing for 10th place in the team event. We played a team out of Colorado. Dave Kikel the cue maker played on that team. He admitted to being the weaker player of the team. The first round they run all 5 racks. We put 5 back on them second round. Everyone knows how to add. LOL I had run my last 4 racks putting us on the hill at 12 to 9. Then trouble started, my team mates er kind of dogged the final racks. Oh well we lost but that is the type of play that happens, it's real. There may have been 1 safe but I think not. In the late stages your not allowed a single mistake, safetys are very uncommon although it can happen. The winners should be the ones that have the break in the final round, be it teams or singles. If you don't get out, well you know the story.

Rod

TonyMN
05-07-2003, 12:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>
1.Big Break into head ball, drop CB in middle of table.
Look at layout, run out.

2. see #1
<hr /></blockquote>

That is very close to my experience at our end of season tournament. Here is my version...

1.Big Break into head ball, drop CB in side pocket.
Look at opponent run out.

2. see #1

/ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Tony.

Rod
05-07-2003, 01:10 PM
Er a correction sorry, our team run 4 racks the second round. So it was only 9 racks run the first two rounds.

Hope this helps

Fred Agnir
05-07-2003, 01:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> I don't know what your experience is with strong barbox 8 Ball players, but it goes like this:

1.Big Break into head ball, drop CB in middle of table.
Look at layout, run out.
<hr /></blockquote>And if it was Bobby Pickle, who won the Open division last year, he didn't even bother to look at the layout.

Fred

Steve Lipsky
05-07-2003, 01:23 PM
Nope, Rod /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

As to what you said about treating your opponents as champions, this is a funny story. I went to my first BCA 8-Ball Championship 4 years ago. I was playing in the Open division. In my first round I drew a guy named Phil Harrison. His friend is there cheering him on. I notice they both speak with English accents. OK. We play the set, it's hill-hill, and he breaks and runs. I am PISSED. I am watching cripples all around me and I draw this guy in the first round.

I win something like 11 matches on the loser's side, I show up to my next match (playing for 17th place), and I'm playing this guy's friend! Phil was there, and I'll never forget the look on his face when he saw that I was still in the tournament (I actually finished ahead of him). It was priceless.

Anyway, I lose to his friend, a guy named Chris Melling.

A month later, I find out that BOTH these guys had played in the World Championships at Cardiff! The year after that, Melling came in 5th!! 5th place in the World Championships!!

So, Rod, you're definitely right... treat 'em all like they're monsters!

- Steve

WaltVA
05-07-2003, 01:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyMN:</font><hr>
That is very close to my experience at our end of season tournament. Here is my version...

1.Big Break into head ball, drop CB in side pocket.
Look at opponent run out.

2. see #1

/ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Tony. <hr /></blockquote>
Yep - Watched that strategy at work many times in my playoff matches - /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Walt in VA

Michelle
05-07-2003, 01:28 PM
OK, this is interesting and good advice for Men's singles/teams, but what about women's?

I'm playing on a rather strong Women's Open team, I haven't been to Vegas for BCA before....what should I expect??

9 Ball Girl
05-07-2003, 01:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Michelle:</font><hr>
I'm playing on a rather strong Women's Open team, I haven't been to Vegas for BCA before....what should I expect?? <hr /></blockquote>A lot of trouble from the MudHoney team from New York! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif Good luck!

Steve Lipsky
05-07-2003, 01:33 PM
There you go, Wendy! We gotta represent!

(But Mudhoney is playing in the Masters...)

- Steve

9 Ball Girl
05-07-2003, 01:42 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

landshark1002000
05-07-2003, 02:45 PM
hi preacherman:
Early in the game (on a 7 footer) you want your ball group to own the corner pockets near the rack. This means leaving one or more of your balls to blockade a corner pocket. Even a monster break will leave three or more opponent balls needing that corner pocket.

If you can manage the table thru blockade and safety play you will add a turn or two to the opponent's game.

The only advantage is found in freeing your trouble balls for your own run out.

Shoot soft, control the table, own pockets early, shoot the pocket ducks late, soft bump his balls into trouble as you play. If you can't run in one turn; keep him/her from running until you can.

Ted from Phoenix

Rod
05-07-2003, 03:04 PM
Michelle,
Vegas is like a circus, there is so much going on it can be distracting, if you let it. By that I also mean what you do before during and after matches. Being prepared is part of the battle, well rested and showing up early for a match etc. Your team mates need to do the same. I'm sure you know what it feels like to have someone show up late, it just adds confusion that you don't need. Be organized.

Like the mens there are some very strong women teams up there, the talent though does not run as deep.

I'll tell you a story. I coached a ladies team that played out of my room. I spent the last two months before Vegas coaching them in all aspects. Three of them were very good players the other two played pretty good also. Not great players by any means. The last time we got together before Vegas I didn't have them play any pool. I gave them a rather long speech about how to handle themselves before and especially during matches. Afterwards wasn't a real problem because they didn't party, stay up real late, etc.
They lost hill-hill and finished in second place. I was so proud of them because they was not what you would call a killer team. Everyone needs some luck and rolls along the way. Later, one lady I still coached on and off, Madelyn Roberts won the Womens singles. She also played on a womens team here that won the womens singles.

My advice, stay focused on your table. Sure there is a hundered other tables and commotion going on just block that out, there not watching you anyway. Put yourself in your own little world and play pool. You'll be a little nervous but that is natural. Just try not to show any real emotions or signs of weakness. You'd be supprised how body language tells it's story. Play a smart game and put your best stroke on every shot and let the chips fall where they will. Thats all you can do, other than cheer a good win. LOL
First time is an experience but I know you'll do fine.

Rod

Rod
05-07-2003, 03:19 PM
Great story Steve,
They do come out of the wood work sometimes don't they!
I'm sure there will be at least one more this year. LOL

Rod

Ralph S.
05-07-2003, 04:10 PM
Slow rolling the cb is almost completely out of the question. Playing safe slightly more often may be of some use to due to size difference in the amount of playing area on the smaller tables. The most important note I will mention is this: check the rails!!!! At my state championships, we had brand new tables as we do every year. The rail heights were not quite set right one year causing you not to get true angles when playing kicks and banks. The rails were set slightly higher than they shouldve been. Make sure to check this out.

Barbara
05-07-2003, 04:29 PM
Michelle,

Keep your eyes focused on the table at all times! There will be people walking around you everywhere and that can be the distraction of death! Even when you're not shooting, focus on something on the table. Or focus on something else, but focus! Don't become distracted with mind chatter.

Good luck and good rolls!

Barbara

05-07-2003, 04:36 PM

landshark1002000
05-07-2003, 04:50 PM
Hi preacherman:
Your question deserves a better answer than a short, bumper sticker response.

Robert Byrne wrote a checklist for how to win at 8-ball.
It's on page 165 of "Byrne's new standard book of pool and billiards".

His twelve simple guidelines are the best I've read (or used).

Ted from Phoenix

Fred Agnir
05-08-2003, 07:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote I said:</font><hr>Careful reading will show that I did not say this<hr /></blockquote>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr>I'm still reading that you are a run and gun man.<hr /></blockquote>

Please don't put words into my mouth.

I didn't say that I "... would advise everyone who goes to Vegas to give up the safety game down the straight-away." You are on a slippery slope. I won't defend saying it, because I didn't say it.

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever seen Jackie Robinson play? He won the whole APA 8-ball national championship in about 1999. I played with him and others every month for a year in the APA tour tournaments. This tournament had players from the Washington D.C./Maryland area. Jackie Robinson was also a great one-pocket player. He was also a great run and gun player. I have seen him shoot some devastating safes, and he knows exactly when to play them. I will guarantee he won the big dance with good safety play.<hr /></blockquote>Is he or isn't he a run and gun player? I guarantee that he had to make balls after the safety play. If you're not in the runout mentality, there's only so far you'll go. What you've said thus far about Mr. Robinson doesn't contradict that.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cheesemouse:</font><hr>Of course one can always win a game with that great safety but you must be in the RUN AND GUN mode or you won't get far against the CREAM... <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>While I do agree with you that you should always keep the safety option in the back of your mind, it won't win you too many games against strong players. <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> ...the top finishers in these tournaments are usually very strong players. They will beat you with offense. Playing nip-and-tuck games in those later rounds is a questionable strategy.<hr /></blockquote>


Fred &lt;~~~ never said to throw out the safety game.

05-08-2003, 09:57 AM

Fred Agnir
05-08-2003, 10:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> So Preacherman, just listen to Fred and beware of all those guys who just run rack after rack after rack on that last day. After all, Fred has been to Vegas. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>I'm glad you chose to use a strawman tactic. I hope everyone else was able to get my point, even if you choose not to. Vegas has nothing to do with local tournaments that reflect the same theme. If your area isn't like this, then consider yourself unique. Doesn't it seem odd that these other people on the board from East to Midwest to West report results similar to what I'm reporting?

[ QUOTE ]
. I have played a guy named Dennis Brison who I saw run 3 racks of 8 ball in a row at Valley Forge. I sent my friend up to challenge him, and he ran another 3 racks in a row, on a bar table. When I used my safe strategy on a big table, I almost beat him because he was a little off that day. <hr /></blockquote>Doesn't this prove my point? He ran 3 racks on your friend and some other person. How did the safety game help if the other guy is running racks? Do you think he stopped running racks because you were going to play safeties against him? Do you think your safety game is going to beat him more times than his runout games beat you? Don't you have to run out at some point? And in the end, you didn't beat him! Just what exactly are you saying?

My comments to Laura probably reflect a lot of people's in that her documented efforts into safety play (though highly advisable at times) might serve her better if focused on other more offensive areas.

Fred &lt;~~~ never underestimates the value of the safety game.

bluewolf
05-08-2003, 10:56 AM
Jim,

The most important thing in my opinion is to know what you do well and what you are weak at. Also gauging your opponents strengths and weaknesses earlly on is helpful, if you have the time. I have beaten players that were better shooters than me.

I know that I cannot runout, or havent yet. i have beaten players who were better players than me by playing safe and setting up my run.

Football teams, basketball teams watch videos of their opponents. If the team is a fast team (ie a run out player) they try to get them off their pace. They know the team they are playing , which I realize is much more easy in league (where I watch all the players, partly for this reason. In vegas, you will probably not have the luxury of evaluating your opponent in much detail. I think you can tell pretty quick what their desired pace is.

I won because when i played higher skilled players who were run and gun types, I got them off their pace.

I do not know what level of singles you are in. If you are not in with the top 7s, this is doable, imho.

And ww, dont worry, I know what I am good at and try to play to my strengths, control the pace, and put them in positions of their weaknesses. obviously this would not work with Danny Green, but then again, who knows.

Some players do not fold no matter what. It seems though that from observation that it is possible to get even a decent 7 off their pace.Most, except for the very top sevens make one to two mistakes a game, and allison fisher makes mistakes too. Take advantage of their mistakes. It is all out war when you are at the table.Mercy is a sickness.

Get your balls where you need them for your run out, put theirs in places that it makes it difficult for them to run out. And of course, if they run 5-6 balls and miss, you have got them. Then they are putty in your hands.

If this sounds arrogant, Anything in this post I have either done or observed.

It is a jungle. It is war. I play to win.As in a war, I will either win or I will mangle them (in this case their heads) to my fullest capabilities.

Laura

Fred Agnir
05-08-2003, 11:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> Fred, all of this run and gun stuff depends on what SL you are. <hr /></blockquote>Maybe this is where we've gotten on different pages. The BCA National 8-ball tournament is not handicapped. There is an assumption that if you're going to plop $125 for entrance fee, $300 for air fare, $400 for a room, that you are of a certain caliber player that will be able to face-off in a short race to 5, on a bar table. I'm sure there are high-level players that can take off a local tournament with strong safety play, but they are the minority. The strong runout players more than likely prevail. That's what my experience has been. If the majority of players on this board or elsewhere see and experience something different, I'm certainly open to listen. I'd hope you would be willing to listen as well.

I view the 8-ball National Open as a large higher-level amateur tournament. The "runout-from-everywhere" mentality is what I've seen and expect to see. You will see safety play, but that won't be the overall theme, especially in the final days. I think that this is an appropriate report to the original question. Jim (Preacherman), do you think this information is detrimental?

Fred

bluewolf
05-08-2003, 11:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Jim (Preacherman), do you think this information is detrimental?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

I think that I thought that this was somewhat handicapped like the apa ones, say 4-6, mid 7s, top 7s etc.

Btw-jim is on a jet plane..singing

Laura

Rod
05-08-2003, 12:21 PM
Fred,
That's the way I view it also. That and some people just go to play have a little fun etc, it's their vacation. Their two or three and out and enjoy doing whatever, sometimes watching.

A large percentage however go there to really play and have hopes of winning or at least cashing to help cover expenses.
It's all really moot in this case. Here we discussing or arguing sometimes and the guy that posted the question was packing his bags a few hours later. The question was rather open-ended anyway. Just like many questions here at times, you need to add a few disclaimers based on your answer.

In Jims Words ---[ QUOTE ]
Never on the 7' (except last week for a few hours to get the feel of it). <hr /></blockquote>

Now how much are you going to tell a guy thats going to help him in this situation? He won't remember after the first rack is broken. Not ony that he waited until the last minute and probably never read 1/10 of the replies!

You could see the urgency-- [ QUOTE ]
That's it! So far only 2 people have giving input on my question!

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

I replied after that and knew it was probably a waist of ink.

Rod

ladybilliards
05-08-2003, 12:26 PM
Are you talking about hall of fame, Jackie Robinson?!
Wow

bluewolf
05-08-2003, 12:33 PM
I am sure he is. I will tell him to read this.

Laura

Rod
05-08-2003, 12:35 PM
Laura,
BCA has never been handicaped at the national level. What a joke that could be at a national event. Even local leagues are not handicapped in a one on one situation. That means you play me heads up! LOL Here they may limit the total team handicap in a league. In other words say a 35 point team total. It could be five 7's making that total. Where another league may be open so you could have over 50 point ranking. In vegas however they all play even.

hope this helps-- good luck in league tonight!

Rod

bluewolf
05-08-2003, 12:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>Maybe this is where we've gotten on different pages. The BCA National 8-ball tournament is not handicapped. <hr /></blockquote>

Not talking about sl per sey, an analogy.

You are in a fierce battle in a jungle. You have a pistol and your enemy has a machine gun. Your enemy does not have to be that accurate to kill you but you have to be very accurate to kill him. You cannot make any mistakes.So you hide and wait for him to be vulnerable and kill him.

To me this is like it is in pool the lower players have the pistol, the 6-7 have the machine guns. If the lower player is playing a good player, it is important to not make a mistake because it might be your last.

In that case, it is best to hide and strike, try to put him in position that he gets balls off the table but does not run out. It is also good to try to get your balls where you want them on the table for the run at the end and at the same time not giving your enemy an easy hit.By using this hide and trike tactic, being able to tell where you need to put your balls, in the end, you should have about 3 balls and the 8 in proximity to run them with easy shape. In the ocassions this cannot be done, that is why it is important to be good on long shots and also shape to get the cb where you want it to go.

This would be only ocassionally sucessful against a good(sl6 or so) player, but it is the only weapon that the weak player has. If they do not have even a small weapon, they will lose 100% of their battles

This would , of course not be successful against someone who runs 5 racks in a row like the man with the pistol would not prevail against 5 attackers with machine guns.

Just like the man with the pistol, give him an additional weapon and his chances of winning the battle improve. He does not have to hide as much but can strike more. And if you give him enough weapons, he will rarely have to hide.

I think that pool is much like this. As a player becomes better, they have more and bigger weapons, so they do not have to hide as much as they did when they did not have anything but shortrange bullets (ie,can only make short shots etc)

I see a triad. Good shooting, good safety play, good position skills (the break too)

I think it is like either the less advanced player is good at one of these or they lose all of their matches. As they get better, they get better in the whole triad, although there might be a slight preference.

It is war and using the weapons you have and trying to get bigger ones so that you can win more battles.War, win, mangle.

Laura

bluewolf
05-08-2003, 01:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Laura,
BCA has never been handicaped at the national level. What a joke that could be at a national event. Even local leagues are not handicapped in a one on one situation. That means you play me heads up! LOL Here they may limit the total team handicap in a league. In other words say a 35 point team total. It could be five 7's making that total. Where another league may be open so you could have over 50 point ranking. In vegas however they all play even.

hope this helps-- good luck in league tonight!

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

In 1999, ww apa team went to vegas, airfare and hotel payed for. In addition to the team competition, there were singles competitions handicapped to some degree, like sl2-4 etc. We were thinking about getting me to some of the qualifyers while I still have a spot, but we just have not done it and I know this is weird, but I did not like Los Vegas.I just hate the thought too of being across the country from my furkids.

Thanks. I hope to play someone good. A 5 would be nice and fun because whether I prevailed or not, I would try to play my very best. Someone told me I would get better faster by playing better players .

Laura

wolfdancer
05-08-2003, 09:13 PM
51 replies to the "best strategy"...play safe, run and gun, etc...do this, do that.... the best strategy is there is no planned strategy...every shot, unless you stay in line perfectly, calls for a new game plan..that planned runout now has to be abandoned..that ball you wanted to save has to be made to save your turn at the table, you now need to play safe, etc....
the only sure strategies..never miss a makeable shot; never leave your opponent a makeable shot...always wear clean underwear

Warren_Lushia
05-09-2003, 01:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Nope, Rod /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

As to what you said about treating your opponents as champions, this is a funny story. I went to my first BCA 8-Ball Championship 4 years ago. I was playing in the Open division. In my first round I drew a guy named Phil Harrison. His friend is there cheering him on. I notice they both speak with English accents. OK. We play the set, it's hill-hill, and he breaks and runs. I am PISSED. I am watching cripples all around me and I draw this guy in the first round.

I win something like 11 matches on the loser's side, I show up to my next match (playing for 17th place), and I'm playing this guy's friend! Phil was there, and I'll never forget the look on his face when he saw that I was still in the tournament (I actually finished ahead of him). It was priceless.

Anyway, I lose to his friend, a guy named Chris Melling.

A month later, I find out that BOTH these guys had played in the World Championships at Cardiff! The year after that, Melling came in 5th!! 5th place in the World Championships!!


- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

hey steve, melling made the last 16 a couple years back in cardiff, so i think you meant 9th (9-16) instead of 5th. its a crying shame he didn't get an auto invite last year.

in case your wondering, there is a very strong crew coming over from england. phil "the farmer" harrison will be there again, but i don't think melling is going. as far as singles goes, keep an eye out for michael (mick) "the machine gun" hill and darren (daz) "dynamite" appleton in particular. daz has reached the last 64 in cardiff previously, and he won one of the qualifiers last year to get into the field. daz gave me a list of ten or so players that were going, but that was a while back, and i can't remember all of them without going back and looking it up. carl morris is one who pops into mind, who has won a world championship at english 8 ball. i think lee kendall will be there, but i believe he has to play in the masters. i'd watch out for this group, especially because they're playing in the team event too!! ouch!! i'd be surprised if these guys don't make an impact.

cool story btw! i'm trying to remember, but i think phil harrison made the last 64 in cardiff last year.

warren..

jjinfla
05-09-2003, 08:01 AM
Just continue doing what got you there. And remember that all the the other players there are the best in their respective leagues. As far as ratings, 6's in the APA are just average C players using Capelle's rating system, as are most 7's. In the BCA "C" players are just cannon fodder for the real players. Just my observations. And yes they do run and gun, but when stuck they play safe, and most of all they use their little grey cells all the time. Jake

SpiderMan
05-09-2003, 01:09 PM
I counted a lot more than that, dated prior to the post I'm answering. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
05-09-2003, 01:29 PM
Rod,

If one of your opponents let you to the table somewhere in the middle of his run, and you were faced with choosing between a hail-Mary two-rail kick or an easy-to-execute safety that would leave your opponent only a similar kick, I can't believe you'd go for the HMS. If he's a fine player, all the more penalty to you if you miss either the shot or the safe.

SpiderMan

Rod
05-09-2003, 02:10 PM
Your right no HMS here, depends on the two rail but I'd most likely play a tight safe. OTOH due to a not so good roll on a break out I ended up with this up there.
START(
%Ad0Y9%BK2Q4%Ci8K3%DU3X8%EN6Z6%Fg0O3%GH9P7%Hd1L3%I Z4Y8%Pa3W7

)END

The 9 is my last ball and it can't be cut in the side. I cut the 9 in the upper left corner. I shot this at warp speed, the c/b doubled the side went across table and reversed back to point A. The diagram doesn't show it but the 8 has 1/2 pocket.

START(
%Ad0Y9%BK2Q4%Ci8K3%DU0X4%EN6Z6%Fg0O3%GH9P7%Hd1L3%I Z4Y8%Pa3W7
%QW8S7%UX6S9%VU2C7%YC7D0%ZY4Y0%_U7D2%`\0[5%aZ2Z3
)END

Without showing it, you should have seen the shot before this one! LOL The break out did create a problem. I think it was a well aimed hail mary.

Rod

bigbro6060
05-09-2003, 05:44 PM
Chris Melling is the current King of UK style 8Ball pool

he's amazing!

If he decided to take up 9Ball, he would make an impact, he's trying his luck at snooker too now