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View Full Version : My observation, your opinion



ladybilliards
05-14-2003, 04:44 PM
I notice that the top players, Allison, Karen, Gerda and recently Helena, HARDLY EVER show any emotion. Good or bad shot, up 6-2 or down, you'd never know it. I like this style of play and try to pattern my game the same way (though it can be really hard, especially after making a 3 rail shot after being snookered!). Anyway, I think this is what separates Jeanette and Vivian from winning as many tourneys as they probably could. You know how Vivian is, she'll make a great shot, turn to the crowd with her hands up in the air for applause, then miss a straight in shot. What do you all think? Jeanette's always talking to the crowd, which is fun for us and great entertainment for television but is it doing her harm? Do you show emotion on those great shots (during tournament play)? lb

snipershot
05-14-2003, 04:57 PM
IMO, I love it when any pool player shows alot of emotion, it is entertaining and exciting to watch. Showing all this emotion may hurt the players focus, it also may fuel their intensity giving them a greater urge to win, I guess it depends on the player. I myself show alot of emotion when I play simply because I can't keep it all bottled up within, maybe it's because I'm so young and enthusiastic where as older players have been there and done that so it's not as big of a deal to them. But it is certainly exciting when a player jumps up and down or gives the crowd a fist pump in the heat of a match.

Rod
05-14-2003, 04:58 PM
It's hard to say. Maybe if they didn't they wouldn't play as well as the do. I lean towards your theory though.

I rarely show any emotion in tourney play. When I make a strong shot, I just have a great feeling inside. I've even taught players not to show emotion, up or down. As they say, It's not over till the fat lady sings. LOL

Rod

arn3
05-14-2003, 05:08 PM
i don't think you can seperate the game from the personality. it is what it is. maybe if villareal were to shut up, her game would go south real quick. i think she's inconsistancy is because she's a quick shooter who doesn't think too much. for instance, i would be surprised if she ever held concentration enough to run 100 balls.

jeanette is different. you might be right in her case. she is a ham, and her playing to the crowd is manufactured....it is not part of her game.

Popcorn
05-14-2003, 05:12 PM
Never, I have even been told I was not a good sport, because I don't complement my opponent on a good shot. I rarely say anything, even gambling for many hours. I see so many guys making what they think are cleaver remarks or making gestures when they miss or make a good shot, it almost seems they were rehearsing their up coming post shot actions as they were shooting, It can't help. You can't get on that emotional roll-a-coaster when playing, just play and it's a lot easier. I think some of the pros are just showing off and doing what they think looks cool, you see that in the poolroom all the time. I think it looks dopey in my opinion and hurts their game, as well as making them look foolish.

bluewolf
05-14-2003, 05:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ladybilliards:</font><hr> I notice that the top players, Allison, Karen, Gerda and recently Helena, HARDLY EVER show any emotion. Good or bad shot, up 6-2 or down, you'd never know it. I like this style of play and try to pattern my game the same way (though it can be really hard, especially after making a 3 rail shot after being snookered!). Anyway, I think this is what separates Jeanette and Vivian from winning as many tourneys as they probably could. You know how Vivian is, she'll make a great shot, turn to the crowd with her hands up in the air for applause, then miss a straight in shot. <hr /></blockquote>

I get super focussed in most matches. The last time I played a player ranked significantly higher than me, I think one thing that made it so hard to beat her was she was whooping and hollering. I could usually get back into the game but did not have the focus on that match that I usually do.

Laura ----&gt; has a spot teehee

ladybilliards
05-14-2003, 05:29 PM
I was taught not to compliment my opponent during competition. My personality though is one that always gives compliments! So sometimes that's hard for me, if you make a great shot, I say give you kudos. But I understand why I shouldn't because it does nothing but give your opponent more confidence! You don't want to be a poor sport which some will say you are if you don't compliment) but you also want to win! This is another subject huh?!!!!!

lb

ladybilliards
05-14-2003, 05:30 PM
Yeah, I agree that Vivian's quick stroke costs her many matches. And yes, that's her personality.
lb

Popcorn
05-14-2003, 05:36 PM
All that stuff you describe is very disrespectful to your opponent. Good things happen and bad things happen.

"If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same"
RUDYARD KIPLING

bluewolf
05-14-2003, 05:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ladybilliards:</font><hr> I was taught not to compliment my opponent during competition. My personality though is one that always gives compliments! So sometimes that's hard for me, if you make a great shot, I say give you kudos. But I understand why I shouldn't because it does nothing but give your opponent more confidence! You don't want to be a poor sport which some will say you are if you don't compliment) but you also want to win! This is another subject huh?!!!!!

lb <hr /></blockquote>

I think that depends on the skill level. sl2-3 compliment each other on every good shot or even if it is close. Once the sls go up, they are doing less of that imo. If I am playing a two I am saying good shot because they need to be encouraged. If i play somebody higher, I am just trying to beat them and find it distracting to keep saying good shot. Really, I need all the focus i can get when playing a good opponent, even if I do have spot.

Laura

Hopster
05-14-2003, 05:45 PM
Its best not to show or feel anything till its over. It so easy to lose perspective of things when too pumped up. Sure things might have gone great for that one shot and you feel on top of the world and you go the next one and blow it cause youre not focused properly.
I have seen many many gamblers, not just in pool let their emotions take hold and everything goes to hell after that.
Stay calm, stay focused and stay QUIET.
That also eliminates another excuse for losing by the way, you cant blame yourself for losing sight if you stay that way.
Just an opinion.

Popcorn
05-14-2003, 05:54 PM
.QUOTE
"If I play somebody higher, I am just trying to beat them and find it distracting to keep saying good shot. Really, I need all the focus I can get when playing a good opponent, even if I do have spot."

If you recognize it is a detraction, I would suggest you not do it. I don't know that players want to be hearing "nice shot" anyway, some may, but too bad. Some may feel you are being sarcastic, others may just think you are sharking them. If you interact as little as possible with the other player, you are better off in the long run. You don't need a game face on or anything like that, just pay attention and play the game, that's how you win, and sometimes you don't.

heater451
05-14-2003, 06:10 PM
I agree that one shouldn't unduly distract his/her opponent, but I also think that a even a higher-level player likes recognition for a shot that really took some skill.

However, when I compliment someone on a shot, I try to keep my voice low, and go with a simple, "nice shot, John"--loud enough to be heard, but not so invasive as to require a reply. I try not to break anyone's rhythm.

Also, I tend to find that many advanced players have enough focus as to not lose their rhythm, or may even be able to stop, respond to the compliment, and
get right back into their zone.

Mostly though, I try to be quiet.

Oh yeah--I also tap the butt of my cue sometimes, but it doesn't do much on carpet!



=========================

dg-in-centralpa
05-14-2003, 06:33 PM
Personally, I don't show much emotion during my games. If my opponent makes a nice shot, I'll let him know. I try to stay focused on the match at hand without getting into side conversations during the match. Then I lose my concentration. Oh well... at my age that's all I have left to lose.lol /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sid_Vicious
05-14-2003, 07:54 PM
I'm against the grain I guess...watching the imported snooker players is barely even fun. That painted on flat, no emotion face and the robot actions through their movements is not what I think spectators want, at least I don't. EVERY good time I've had locally watching fine players play and win have been when animation and showmanship have been mingled in. Just me I guess...sid

05-14-2003, 08:34 PM
Popcorn,

Have to agree that silence is golden, but find it a rule that's almost impossible to follow. Envy those who can keep a lid on it, but for me the tension tends to build if I don't talk to the balls a little.

Suppose it's self-sharking? But think the key is clearing your head before you get down to the next shot.

Funny experience today ... was playing (just practice) with one of the better regulars at my ph. Still, for me, it was sort of a big deal because he usually plays at one of the top tables and I'm pretty anonymous ... Guy keeps a total poker face. I just wanted to hang in there and play a capable game.

I do tolerably well, games are nearly even, though I botch some nice runs and barely finish off a couple of ragged ones. But in the last game, after a clean run from the 4, I'm looking at simple side-pocket shot that'll leave me straight in on the 9 ... not talking to the balls at all ... I feel the innards seizing up a little and somehow I butcher the 8 off the point and can't help but looking at the ceiling and laughing ... then, out of the corner of my eye, I see it scooting right down the rail into the corner pocket, and laugh even harder, though plenty embarrassed.

Had to let out some air and chuckle, "Jeez, what a way to end the day," as I got down on the 9. It wasn't quite a gimme and I managed to sink that in the center of the pocket. Had to give the guy credit -- he kept a straight face through it all. Wish I could pull that off ... hope I didn't piss him off, though.

jjinfla
05-14-2003, 09:38 PM
I believe that the reason they do not show emotion when they make a great shot is because they are so good they expect to make the shots and it is no big deal for them. And they win because they are better then the rest. Jake

WaltVA
05-14-2003, 11:04 PM
Good to remember the football coach's advice to his team; "When you get in the end zone, act like you've been there before."

Walt in VA

Popcorn
05-15-2003, 01:06 AM
I got a PM from someone saying the quote looked familiar. It is from the poem "If" by Rudyard Kipling. I know this is not pool related but I always thought it was an inspiring poem.


If
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream -- and not make dreams your master;
If you can think -- and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings -- nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run --
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And -- which is more -- you'll be a Man, my son!

John G
05-15-2003, 01:57 AM
I agree, One of my most favorite poems. Read "Invictus" by William Earnest Henley. I think you might enjoy it. As to showing emotion, if it's a serious match, I agree, It's disrespectful to your opponent. There is plenty of time for kudo's when the match is over. A simple tap of the cue or a snap of fingers is adequate recognition. Anything else can turn around and bite you in the a$$

bluewolf
05-15-2003, 02:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> .QUOTE
"If I play somebody higher, I am just trying to beat them and find it distracting to keep saying good shot. Really, I need all the focus I can get when playing a good opponent, even if I do have spot."

If you recognize it is a detraction, I would suggest you not do it. I don't know that players want to be hearing "nice shot" anyway, some may, but too bad. Some may feel you are being sarcastic, <hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn,

I think jumping up and down and whooping and hollering is very immature and silly.I do think it is distracting to the other player. I was not the one whooping, I was quietly playing my game, it was my opponent that was doing all of the noise.

OTOH. THe session before last, I played a girl who was picking up a cue for the first time. We bent the rules and allowed her to get coached on every shot. I and everyone around her certainly did say good shot when she made a good shot. She needed this for her self esteem.This is different.

The discussion started out with pros. Even though I am way below that, I know that whooping is borderline sharking. It would be like all the time I was shooting, I was singing, Ive been working on the railroad"

I would consider that either scenario as sharking even if it is not technically sharking by definition. But whooping it up, dancing around to take the focus off of the game and onto the person, imo, is very distracting and makes it hard for the other player to stay in their game.

Once again, I DO NOT WHOOP. I am quiet because I want to be as focussed as I can. The ONLY time I say good shot is with a beginner and say good match at the end and shake. At that point I may compliment them on a certain super shot they made. But during the match, no way.

In the case where the girl was whooping, she was 2 skill levels above me.Even with my spot, she was hard to beat with all of that noise.My focus is good but after that I realize I have some growth to do in that area also.

She had such a bad attitude that she would not even shake after the match. Such poor sportmanship that even some of her teammates were glad that I had beaten her. Now that is pretty bad when your teamates want you to lose because you are so b**chy.

It is also unfortunate, that in league play, teamates on either side will often complliment the players on either team. They mean well and do not realize that this does not help the player to play their best game.

I went to a tourney once where you draw names and go play. It was so nice to play in an atmosphere where all there was was the table, myself and the person I was playing.

In the case of the woman I was playing, I was able to zone out the roar of the sidelines, but did find it hard to focus when she was whooping,loud, obnoxious etc.

Laura

stickman
05-15-2003, 05:11 AM
I try to contain my enthusiasum, but sometimes I have to express my joy at performing a very difficult shot. I don't show much emotion on poor shots. I know how disturbing it can be to play with someone who curses, grumbles, and throws things. As far as expressing my pleasure, I don't feel that I over do it, but I play pool for the pleasure it brings me. One thing I've learned is to walk around the table, take out my scuffer, rough the tip up, and rechalk after I've made an incredibly hard shot. I use the time to allow my emotions to settle back down. Even if I loose the match, I can still take joy in the small victories. Personally, I have to play with emotion. It may not be necessary to express it, but sometimes it's hard to hold back. Did you ever read the book, The Pleasures of Small Motions?

pooltchr
05-15-2003, 06:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> I also think that a even a higher-level player likes recognition for a shot that really took some skill.

However, when I compliment someone on a shot, I try to keep my voice low, and go with a simple, "nice shot, John"--loud enough to be heard, but not so invasive as to require a reply. I try not to break anyone's rhythm.

Also, I tend to find that many advanced players have enough focus as to not lose their rhythm, or may even be able to stop, respond to the compliment, and
get right back into their zone.

Mostly though, I try to be quiet.

Oh yeah--I also tap the butt of my cue sometimes, but it doesn't do much on carpet!



========================= <hr /></blockquote>
I agree, particularly in a tournament setting. I also tap the butt of my cue to acknowledge a nice shot. My problem comes from the other side. If I am shooting, I often hear the "nice shot" comment, but if I am really focused, I may do nothing more than nod my head in response. Not being rude, just trying to hold my focus.

Sid_Vicious
05-15-2003, 07:03 AM
"Did you ever read the book, The Pleasures of Small Motions?"

That's one I've not read. Does it address self appraisal or appraisal of others????sid

Popcorn
05-15-2003, 07:06 AM
After the match, it is often a good time to reestablish communications with your opponent. Maybe even discuss the match afterwards. You don't really dislike the guy your playing, but an inexperienced player, or a hot head, can misinterpret the goings on during a match and take it personal. One of the things I sometimes notice with the non-gambling player is, they often take the match personal, when it is not, or at least should not be. When I first met my wife, she would see me play and did not understand we did not actually hate each other, even though we competed fiercely. There were no grudges, it is just a game. There are guys that can't seem to see it that way, they think if someone changes lanes in front of them, it is a personal attack. But in general with a pool game, when the game is over, it's over, till the next time.

Yuppie
05-15-2003, 08:36 AM
I get angry, pissed off even, if the game is delayed for any reason. I guess that's how I get distracted. Not so much hearing or saying "nice shot," but rather when something holds up the game and takes either player out of the game and concentration.

For example, I play with a friend often, and sometimes during a game, he'll answer his cell phone and talk for a bit even when it's his turn at the table. So I have to wait. Or when friends drop by and talk while we're playing. When all that happens, I might as well quit for the day or go get my own table.

stickman
05-15-2003, 08:41 AM
Part of it deals with self appraisal. I found it helpful to my game, but not everyone does. I'd read it again, but my wife has it, and who knows if I'll get it back. She did send over my Scott Lee tapes though. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccbboard&amp;Number=44300&amp; Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=The%20Pleasures%20of%20Smal l%20Motions&amp;Match=Entire%20Phrase&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Lim it=25&amp;Old=allposts&amp;Main=44279&amp;Search=true#Post4430 0

Popcorn
05-15-2003, 09:05 AM
That is not that much of a distraction. Try playing $100. a game, in a place with a live band and the table next to the dance floor.

Tom_In_Cincy
05-15-2003, 09:43 AM
IMO,

1st- if you can quickly release the emotion and then get back into your rhythem, this is ok. Not many players I have seen (pro or otherwise) have been able to do this very well.

2nd--I try to keep my rhythem steady. To do this, no shot is more important then the current shot. Its not always easy and the only way I can do this is go from one pre-shot routine on one shot to the same pre-shot routine as quick as possible for the next shot (eliminating emotions between the shots)

MikeM
05-15-2003, 09:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> .QUOTE
"
OTOH. THe session before last, I played a girl who was picking up a cue for the first time. We bent the rules and allowed her to get coached on every shot. I and everyone around her certainly did say good shot when she made a good shot. She needed this for her self esteem.This is different.


Laura <hr /></blockquote>

Last night in league we played a team that we had played earlier in the season that has three generations from one family. Grandpa, Dad and a boy about 11-12 yrs old. In the last game of the first round (modified BCA format) we needed only four balls to win the frame. The kid ended up with a shot needing the bridge and he didn't know how to use it. Neither did his teammates so we showed him the proper way to use the bridge and he sank the shot, ran out and we lost the point. (I won't mention the CCBers name that got beat 8-0 /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif).

I played him in the last game of the night. He ended up with a tough leave with only a cross corner bank shot available. When he finally called timeout I went to the table and showed him where to hit the cushion with his ball and WesK (oops didn't mean to mention his name /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) reminded him to use inside english and he drained the shot dead center and beat me too.

Even though it hurt us to help hime it was worth it. After the match he thanked us for helping him learn. The whole pool hall was making a big deal over him and I think he'll practice with a bit more enthusiasm for awhile because of it.

MM...off topic, but a nice story.

Aboo
05-15-2003, 02:29 PM
I play better when I keep my emotions in check. Although it is hard to do sometimes. If an opponent makes a very nice shot, I'll tap the butt of my cue on the ground, I never talk to the person shooting during their turn at the table. When the balls are being racked, by one or the other is a decent time to mention a sweet shot too, or an unlucky break. *shrugs*
I agree with the celebrating being disrespectful to the person your playing, depending on the situation. In a money or tourny game, I would think it would be VERY disrespectful and could get ugly if they consider it sharking. (The compliments I mean)
If your jumping up and down and whooping after sinking the 9 on a wicked bank on a 500 dollar match... your liable to get your ass kicked. Depending on the situation of course.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif