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bluewolf
05-15-2003, 05:48 AM
I started playing in APA in the fall session 1999 as an sl2. I could not stand dc so after playing a few times, I went back to my home town of Roanoke, va, and we were going to try to move there.

There was no APA and the other league had all the spots filled already.

I had originally competed on 8 ft. I ocassionally went to this pool hall in Roanoke that charged 2.50 and hour and the choice was coin operated bar boxes and 9 fts. I had my first real introduction to 9fts.

These two older gentleman came in every day to play one-pocket. I guess that is where my interest started in that game.

Anyway, they were real nice and would sometimes talk to me and give me tips. I once stated that I was getting pretty good at shooting but did not have cue ball control. One of the men replied, "well, that is the whole game!"

This made a big impression on me. Then I realized that a person can 'shoot the lights out', but until they can put that cb where they want it, they are only going so far.

Now just by osmosis I guess, am getting to be a decent shooter because I have been practicing a lot since the season was ended. Also by encouragement here, discovered I could shoot better than I thought I could.

I thought I could not do shape. I found out that I was already doing it, but at a rudimentary level. I was using cheat the pocket, English rarely, lots of top,bottom and centerball but mostly looking at the tangent line and adjusting speed for action off of the rails.

I could usually end up at the right end of the table and the right side of the table, but was missing the finer aspects and often gave myself a harder cut than I would have if I was more skilled.

In watching apa sevens and good sixes, I realized I needed to bump to the next level of shape proficiency so that I can become better at pool. So now, every eveninng, ww gives me shape lessons, to help me with that.

I am wondering about the people here, did it just come naturally?

And any kool shape shots or drill I woulds like to know about two. So far have just been throwing out 1-9 and trying to get shape with limited skill. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Laura

pooltchr
05-15-2003, 06:47 AM
Try placing a small (6") circle of paper on the table where you want the cue ball to end up. Make your shot and see how close you end up. It's frustrating at first, but you are giving yourself an actual goal, and you can see the results. Set up the shot several times and hit with different speed, spin, etc and see what difference it makes. Once you create an actual target for the cue ball, it becomes more real and less of a concept, and you will be able to see your progress.
Steve

Popcorn
05-15-2003, 07:52 AM
Playing position is the game of pool. Shot making is very important of course, because it often get you out of a jam, or you need to come with a shot to get your turn at the table started, but you win through position play. Heres what it comes down to. Good position play has a compound effect. It brings you from one shot to the next keeping the shots reasonably easy. As a result of having an easier shot, it becomes easier to play the next position, and so on. If you are playing from one disaster to the next, with most of your attention focused on crisis management, you can't play well, no matter how good a shot maker you are. So many players spend endless hours setting up shots and shooting them over and over and not one minute working on just moving the cue ball around the table. I don't really have what I would call drills for position play, I do have things I like to do. I like to run balls into one pocket. Not so much to practice my one pocket, but you have to play all kinds position to do it and it is kind of fun. That includes the side pocket, when I don't have anymore shots I just start on a different pocket. I like to practice close up position. In games like straight pool, one pocket and 8-ball, often just moving the cue ball a few inches accurately keeps you at the table. Especially in 8-ball where you may need to be maneuvering around other balls to run out, the little easy stuff, (if you practice it), wins for you, not so much the big shots.

Wally_in_Cincy
05-15-2003, 08:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>And any kool shape shots or drill I woulds like to know about two. <hr /></blockquote>

Black Belt Billiards

SecaucusFats
05-15-2003, 08:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> I started playing in APA in the fall session 1999 as an sl2. I could not stand dc so after playing a few times, I went back to my home town of Roanoke, va, and we were going to try to move there.

There was no APA and the other league had all the spots filled already.

I had originally competed on 8 ft. I ocassionally went to this pool hall in Roanoke that charged 2.50 and hour and the choice was coin operated bar boxes and 9 fts. I had my first real introduction to 9fts.

These two older gentleman came in every day to play one-pocket. I guess that is where my interest started in that game.

Anyway, they were real nice and would sometimes talk to me and give me tips. I once stated that I was getting pretty good at shooting but did not have cue ball control. One of the men replied, "well, that is the whole game!"

This made a big impression on me. Then I realized that a person can 'shoot the lights out', but until they can put that cb where they want it, they are only going so far.

Now just by osmosis I guess, am getting to be a decent shooter because I have been practicing a lot since the season was ended. Also by encouragement here, discovered I could shoot better than I thought I could.

I thought I could not do shape. I found out that I was already doing it, but at a rudimentary level. I was using cheat the pocket, English rarely, lots of top,bottom and centerball but mostly looking at the tangent line and adjusting speed for action off of the rails.

I could usually end up at the right end of the table and the right side of the table, but was missing the finer aspects and often gave myself a harder cut than I would have if I was more skilled.

In watching apa sevens and good sixes, I realized I needed to bump to the next level of shape proficiency so that I can become better at pool. So now, every eveninng, ww gives me shape lessons, to help me with that.

I am wondering about the people here, did it just come naturally?

And any kool shape shots or drill I woulds like to know about two. So far have just been throwing out 1-9 and trying to get shape with limited skill. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Laura <hr /></blockquote>

Buy, borrow, beg or steal Bert Kinister's "The Short Game", "The Middle Game", and "The Long Game". Start with "The Short Game" and do the drills faithfully for six to eight weeks, then move on to the next two tapes and do the same with each. It's going to be frustrating at first, but don't get discouraged. Just keep plugging away until you have each segment down. If you do this, your position skills will improve tremendously. This regimen requires a lot of commitment and discipline but the rewards are awesome.

Some other worthwhile training tapes and books are:
Bob Henning's "The Pro Book" and "The Pro Book Videos"
Steve Campana's "Black Belt Billiards"
Phill Capelle's "Play Your Best Pool"

Remember, books and tapes can give you knowledge but it's up to you to program your brain, eye, and arm with the new info, and that takes a lot of hours at the table.

Fats

ceebee
05-15-2003, 08:15 AM
...sounds like you are on your way to becoming a player. Making balls is important. Obtaining Position without making balls is nothing. But by making balls &amp; obtaining position, you are on the road to stringing shots together.

There are what's called "Pattern Shots", meaning the pattern of the shot can be relied on. There are requirements for this type of shot...&gt;&gt;&gt; stroke &amp; english have to be the constants to obtain the cue ball position. English is mostly used to alter the Cue Ball's path after contact with a rail, so if the Carom path of the Cue Ball doesn't need altering to get around balls or pockets... don't use the english. The Stroke length determines the length of the Cue Ball's run. This is all a very basic interpretation.

If you get yourself a TARGET POOL Book &amp; Ray Martins 99 Critical Shots, it won't take you long to develop an arsenal of pattern shots. Rememeber that the Cue Ball can be made to stop anywhere along it's line of travel, so practice that part as well.

Don't forget to practice the Break Shot too. Practice whacking the rack all across the headstring, moving along the headstring is sometimes required to find the sweet spot. Watch your partner or your opponent when they Break... do they make balls? Where do they break from? What is the Cue Ball's path after their Break Shot? These are tell tale signs about their shot. If they are making balls ... pay attention!

Push outs are important too. THINK when you are pushing out. Are you going to be able to see the object ball? Are you pushing out to a position, where your opponent has a natural shot to hook you again. Can you push out to a place where you have an easy bank to hit the object ball or maybe even a Jump Shot. It's about thinking....

Good Luck..... cb

bluewolf
05-15-2003, 08:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ceebee:</font><hr> If you get yourself a TARGET POOL Book &amp; Ray Martins 99 Critical Shots, it won't take you long to develop an arsenal of pattern shots. Rememeber that the Cue Ball can be made to stop anywhere along it's line of travel, so practice that part as well.

Don't forget to practice the Break Shot too. Practice whacking the rack all across the headstring, moving along the headstring is sometimes required to find the sweet spot. Watch your partner or your opponent when they Break... do they make balls? Where do they break from? What is the Cue Ball's path after their Break Shot? These are tell tale signs about their shot. If they are making balls ... pay attention!

cb <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for the encouragement. Do you mean the TARGET POOL game. I have that and 99 crit shots, also Play Your Best Pool by Capelle.

I like the paper idea. Believe it or not, when I first started regular 8mo ago, I tried that because even then I knew it was important. I thought I was not doing position. I did not focus on it much because I missed a couple of shots while thinking of the next one.

Now I am a better shooter, better than I thought I was I guess, so that is motivation to learn better shape.

Laura

bluewolf
05-15-2003, 08:30 AM
Can you give me the link for the kinister tapes? i had it before but lost it. Thanks.

Laura

cycopath
05-15-2003, 08:43 AM
http://www.bertkinister.com/bert_kinister_pool_videos.html

MarkUrsel
05-15-2003, 08:47 AM
One of the best drills I've ever been shown was from a lesson I took with Tony Robles.

He sets up a table similar to this:
START(
%AD1O6%Bf8Z7%CO9Z0%DX1E2%Ep9N6%FW7Z7%Gg0D1%Hg5E3%I q8O6%JN8E1
%KN7Z6%LW3D0%Mg5Y6%NX5Y5%OM8D1%PG8U8%WD9Q4%XG4U1
)END

Starting with high-top center (two tips above center), try to break up the cluster near the top side pocket. Using top center (one tip above center), try for the cluster further away on the top rail. Dead center should break the cluster at the center of the far short rail, etc...

This applies in so many game situations, especially ball-in-hand, trying to run out the table situations. It's a drill I work on every time I practice. Tony teaches kind of a 'cross' system on the cueball. From dead-center, go one or two tip-widths up, down, left, or right. the two closest clusters can be broken out with high top right and low bottom left respectively.

Good luck and hope this helps.

bigbro6060
05-15-2003, 09:44 AM
right from the start i knew that Cue ball control is what separates the 'players' from the 'bangers'

as my game has developed, i realise that the most important skills for improving cueball control is observation and memory. Every time you take a shot, you should be adding a piece of data to your pool computer. if the cueball didn't go where you wanted it to go, why not ? where did it go instead ? Whenever i encounter a shot which didnt go anywhere near as planned, i will set it up and play it over and over with different speeds and spins.

Even though it seems there are millions of different shots on the pool table, really there are less than you think. Just a matter of pulling out from your pool computer all the relevant data for a particular shot and using it, making minor adjustments as necessary

I'm still programming my pool computer, i'm sure i will continue to do so for many decades to come /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

smfsrca
05-15-2003, 10:11 AM
Laura
Ed Nagle, who recently passed away, was a great teacher, my coach and friend. Ed used to teach the following excercise.
Starting with 3 balls, throw them out at random, take ball in hand and run out in order. If you run out then increase the number of balls to 4. Then to 5 and so on until you reach the highest number where you are challenged but not overwhelmed. This will give you a goal and a measure of your ability. If you can run out 6 or 7 balls consistently you are a top player.
Steve in CA

Perk
05-15-2003, 10:16 AM
I like the method that was mentioned that Tony Robles teaches, but something to consider on a simpler notion is to set up a shot similiar to this:
START(
%AH7U2%Gr8O8%Hr9I3%Ir7U8%PV8U1

)END

Take this simple cut shot on the one ball and watch how different players or yourself pocket this ball for shapes for one of the other three balls. For some it may be a "nobrainer" cut and drift down table, others make it a three rail shot to guarentee a perfect angle. Practise this type of shot to get used to 2 rail/3 rail shapes. In this case, 3 rail shape can give you a larger margin for error due to the rail as a last contact point. If you are just a bit slow, you still have a good shot, and a bit long and the rail helps straighten/kill the cueball.

Good luck.

bluewolf
05-15-2003, 12:47 PM
Here is a situation I have been frequently faced with. I played safe so that my opponent would get his trash off the table. He now has one ball and the 8 and I have an open table to run. I have 4 balls at one end and one and the eight at the other end. I am perfectly capable of getting these 4 easy shots in, it is just how to get shape on each one so that they ARE easy shots. After I get the fourth one in, I want to send the cb down table for a short or mid length shot on the other ball, then get good shape on the 8.

These kinds of situations come up so much for me. That is why I play safe so much and pick the balls off. It is not that I am incapable of running the balls, it is that I am incapable or limited in my ability of getting the shape I need to run the balls.

Symantics? perhaps. But i see that I can pot the balls.My winning for last 10 games is 70%. In each of the three times I lost it was because of shape or lack thereof.

Here are some things I want to learn. This is important. When you use ie or oe,do either the ob or the cb reverse spins or do they keep spinning the same direction.I wondered about this because bottom on the cb imparts top to the ob. It makes sense that this would happen with english but I wanted to ask. And when the cb hits the rail, does it come off at a reverse spin?

I hope to learn the following things also from the tapes, books etc.But I suspect it has a lot to do with experience. Cant learn everything in a book that took someone 30 years to refine.

WW talks about memorizing patterns. He is very good at this. I learn better by knowing the concepts and then experimentation and expereince.

I hope that these recommended books focus on concepts rather than specific patterns. The way the balls spin, how they spin or act after hitting the ob and/or the rail.

Rather than seeing many patterns, I see experience, experimentation with the concepts and a few basic concepts.

1 The effect of the cb on the ob in various eng, top, bottom,etc
2 The effect of the rail on the cb or in the case of banks on the ob.
3 Effects as follows in terms of where the cb goes:
Top middle, top ie, top oe
Center center, center ie, center oe
Bottom center,bottom ie, bottom oe

Tangent line and when top or bottom veres off the tangent line. How far does it have to travel before this happens at various speeds.From my experiment, it appeared that it vered off sooner with top, so I used top when the shot was a 'scratch' shot.

The effect of ball speed on the above.

I think that I need concepts and experience to learn the delicacies. I have a feeling that just like being able to shoot well comes from potting a bunch of balls, once learning the basic concepts of shape, this ability will come the same way.

In the end, I believe that it will be a natural thing with time on the table .

I do appreciate everyones comments though and your time and will get the kinister tapes once I allocate the money.

I know I have a lot of questions. To quote from:zen mind, beginners mind "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities (questions), in the expert's mind there are few"

Laura

bluewolf
05-16-2003, 09:45 AM
Early this morning I got out some of the books I had that had position stuff in them;

99 critical shots-had a hard time understanding these and it seemed like in some cases, this was the hard way to do the shot. Also did not seem to deal much with concepts, just the shot.

Play Your best Pool-I had tried to read this earlier and got bogged down. Turned to part on eng and position. Very good at explaining the concepts and the diagrams were easy to read.

Bernes standard book of pool and billiards-also liked his diagrams and explanations.

Messing around with 9ball last night.I would tell ww the shot and how I would get on the next ball.(these were easy shots) 1-5 okay with position, but must have planned bad position somewhere because the 6,7 etc were on the opposite end from the cb. Looked like a double kick situation for a legal hit on the six. I was not pleased. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Laura

bluewolf
05-16-2003, 09:55 AM
For some it may be a "nobrainer" cut and drift down table, others make it a three rail shot to guarentee a perfect angle. Practise this type of shot to get used to 2 rail/3 rail shapes. In this case, 3 rail shape can give you a larger margin for error ]

I know I need to learn that 3 rail stuff. I have been using drifting, stop shots, draw, and sometimes a litter ie,oe off the rail but it is often not delicate enough, if that makes sense.

I also have not learned to see the large margin of error. last night I was doing position and after the 5 ball, could not go any farther. On one shot, I wanted to stop it on a dime and could do this, but it does not leave margin for error.

Laura

stick8
05-16-2003, 01:23 PM
I am old man when I was coming up no tapes no tv, learned thehard way,play ,play. guys better than you cost but you eather learn or get out.I am teaching my grand son 12yr, he is good shoot maker but lacks on position. so i put ball at head of table one at bottom and make him shoot position, hoping he will learn table speed from this. help would be excepted I only know basic thanks OLD MAN STICK

stick8
05-16-2003, 01:28 PM
P.S&gt; he has won three 14 and under tourny just on his shoot making abilety . PROUD GRANDPA STICK

Rod
05-16-2003, 03:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I am wondering about the people here, did it just come naturally?
<hr /></blockquote>

Some people just learn faster. They have a nack for the game. If a person doesn't try to make this game to complicated it can speed up learning. Now there is all kinds of information books and tapes. I think many times it can confuse a newer player, there is just to much information. I'd never say information is bad it just depends on how you digest that and in what order. One need not be concerned about any advanced aspects until they can hit the cue ball consistant and where their aiming, basic fundamentals. Squirt, throw and a host of others doesn't make any difference if the stroke is delivered poorly. All real learning starts from a decent stroke. You learn little from a poorly executed shot, other than something went wrong in your fundamentals. One can't base anything from the shot because it was not hit properly.

When the balls go in then you have a basis to observe the c/b travel at that particular angle. If shot with center the c/b will leave at the same angle no matter where the o/b ball is or which pocket. Just practice shots at different angles. Set them up at 15, 30, 45, 60 and 75 degrees.I didn't add 90 here for a reason, even 75 is a little far out. You'll notice how the c/b has a change in path for each angle. As you become familiar with these angles, with center you'll know what to expect. Distance is a factor on heavier hits so up close at first and then add some distance but not to tough. The object is to pocket balls to learn, not miss and learn little. Other than your stroke. LOL You can learn from missed shots, but in the earlier stages its hard to put that to practical use.

The next step is the same angles with top and bottom.
As one gets better a 1/2 tip of english can be used at the same angles to alter the path. Then a full tip etc. Keep in mind though if you intend to use 1/2 tip and hit it with over a tip it changes the rebound angle a large amount.
The combination of low left,low right and top left or right fall in there too. What's important though is knowing when you need to use english. Thats why you need to know the effects first. I see a lot of english used and there really wasn't any need for it. Practice those angles from both sides of the table. If you use english the same applies, both sides.

For instance at roughly 45 degrees you can play position on every single ball along the way just using speed of stroke. As the angle changes you'll see what is possible. Whether it rebounds off the short rail or the long rail doesn't make any difference the angle stays the same, without english. Even with english it's consistant as long as it is the same amount. There is the rub, with the same amount.

START(
%AH0K1%BO6G8%CY2H0%Dl5W5%Eb8H3%FZ4W9%Gd1W6%Hj7H8%I N4W5%PS6P8
%UC7M0%Vg3O7%YC9L4%ZF8K6
)END

Learning what to expect combined with speed control is the whole game. LOL

Rod

Qtec
05-16-2003, 10:20 PM
Qball control depends on two things.Where you hit the Qball and how good your technique is.If you can strike the Qball exactly where you mean to every time, the Qball will do the same thing every time.We determine where the Qball is going to go by where we hit it.For this exercise imagine a line on the Qball from top to bottem,this is our hitting area. Try this,on the diagonal place the nine ball 2ft from the corner pocket and the Qball 2ft from away from this ball so that you have a staight shot.Pot the 9 and stop the Qball dead .You should be hitting the Qball just under the center, and the Qball should still be on the diagonal after the pot.Repeat this till you are comfortable and then,using the same stoke ,pot the 9 but this time you want the Qball to run through and end up on the other side of where the 9 was.You are not allowed to roll the Qball and you have to play all shots at the same pace.Do the same drill and try and screw the Qball back{3or 4 inches].The point is this, if you have to screw the Qball back 2 or 10inches, just play the shot with the same pace[power,speed]but hit the Qball lower or higher.If you can master this ,and it isnt easy,you will see an imediate improvement.To make it more difficult juat move the Qball further away.If you can pot a long 9 and run the Qball through 4inches every time you are doing hitting the ball in the right way and you are hitting the Qball in the right place.This is a straight shot drill and no English.Qtec