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bluewolf
05-17-2003, 05:42 AM
My chiropractor, who is a good golfer, told us that sometimes when he plays pool at a friend's house, that he runs a rack. grrrrr

Last night I did such a good break, that I could see that the rack could be easily run by someone with shape skills. I thought grrrr. The shots were not hard, well within my reperatoire to make every one.

It seems it comes down to cue ball control. One of our best sevens is not good at long shots. But he is so good at cue ball control that he almost always wins.

Laura

Terry
05-17-2003, 09:37 AM
Hi Laura, I get my little student to work on cueball control as part of any exercise ( including the break).It will take a lot of shots ( practce ) with a consistant stroke to control the CB and it will always be a sruggle with an inconsistant stroke. I will sometimes take a table that is broke wide open and tell her to run the table.Their cannot be any clusters to break open or any balls that need to be bumped (the CB cannot hit any ball except the OB). I say your shooting the one, put your finger on the spot you want to put the CB in order to shoot the two and get shape for the three.If she gets the CB close enough to the spot to shoot the two and still control the CB while playing shape for the three she continues. If the CB lands too far from the spot to maintain CB control, I put the balls back and get her to shoot it again until she gets the desired results and runs the table. It's just a little change from the drills. Terry

Sid_Vicious
05-17-2003, 09:50 AM
Running racks happens easier when you forget about the run entirely. Almost all of my runs... I've had to be told about. "hey, B&R Guy" "Was it, I forget." I said. I can remember the busted runs though, thinking about the run out and hosing shape late in the finish...sid

UWPoolGod
05-17-2003, 09:58 AM
Last night I saw how unbelieveablely important the break is. I was playing a good friend of mine and I was playing pretty well, consistently out from the 2 or 3 and about 4 or 5 BAR. At that time I was making 2,3, or 4 balls on the break. Then my break went cold and I couldn't make anything. After that my friend kept in control of the table and was running me out and all I was shooting is kick shots or long shots with impossible shape. When I did sneak in a win I still couldn't make a ball on the break and he was still controlling the table. Very frustrating.

Some local guns were shooting a couple of tables over race to 8 for $30. One of them controlls the table and gets up 6-1. But he slips up and the other guy controls the table and gets it back to 6-6. The first guy wins again for 7-6 and then the second guy wins for hill-hill. So now it is a $30 game, the first guy asks if he wants to start over to 9 and play for $100. The second guy who waws down 6-1 says no and BAR that last rack.

Sorry for the rant, just makes me know I have to work on my break to compete at a higher level

Todd

ceebee
05-17-2003, 10:36 AM
The Break Shot is the KEY FACTOR in stringing racks together. You obviously have to shoot well & maintain position to string racks together, but if your Break Shot isn't there or you go cold in making a ball on the Break... winning racks may still get you the match win, but you won't be running racks.

Just about every single GOOD Pool Instruction Book states that the Break Shot is the key shot to maintaining control of the Table. When the Rack is broken, a ball is made & the cue ball is in such a position that the next shot is makeable or a leave can be had, you are still in control.

Bad Luck is inevitable, so I won't even go into the arena of having the Cue Ball kicked in a Pocket or behind another Ball.

A good Break Shot can be learned, muscle memory is the key. Repetition is the vehicle for learning muscle memory.

You have to study where you place your grip on the Cue, in order to get a level Stroke through the Cue Ball on the Break Stroke. You have to practice & perfect your address so your Cue goes down the line of aim throughout the Break Shot STROKE. You have to study the picture you want to see, at Cue Ball address, so that your Cue is hitting the Cue Ball precisely where you intend to hit it. After hitting a Break Shot, go look at the Cue ball & see where the chalk mark is... this a tell tale sign of your stroke's good or bad attributes.

There are lots of ways to learn a great Break Shot... some can be learned from your opponent. You can watch your opponent to see what it is they are doing to make a GOOD Break Shot... where do they place the Cue Ball, is there any spin on the Cue ball after the impact of the Cue Ball & the lead ball in the rack, do they use a rail after impact...?

The Pros don't necessarily have great Cue Ball control on the Break Shot either, don't believe me.. watch a few Videos & map the Cue Ball location after the Snap. But,,, they are great SHOT MAKERS & can consistantly get back in line very soon.

So start practicing the Break Shot... cb

Sid_Vicious
05-17-2003, 10:42 AM
"the first guy asks if he wants to start over to 9 and play for $100."

Assuming there is no adjustment in the weight, when would somebody chose to reset the counter and take this new set? I've had offers like this, most of the time with a weight change and except for added weight, I always turned it down. Opinions???sid

Sid_Vicious
05-17-2003, 11:03 AM
"The Pros don't necessarily have great Cue Ball control on the Break Shot either"

When Allison hit the tour in the first year, she was well in control of whitie and she usually made a ball on the break, most of the time continuing to run the table. Everyone at the microphone wanted to say, "Allison just needs to work on her break, that's her weak point." and I chuckled, "Hell she's running through these other players like sh$t through a goose, and you are criticizing HER!?" I watch Allison play now and see whitie being scratched, and losing position is as common with her now as anyone else on the tour, plus that dominating force isn't REALLY as big. Sure there are other english snooker players to compete with, I personally do not feel that matters in this situation. I feel she should have shunned the consensus and kept "her game" in it's entirety, including her controlled, less than monster break. If it works, don't fix it....sid

bluewolf
05-17-2003, 11:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ceebee:</font><hr> The Break Shot is the KEY FACTOR in stringing racks together. You obviously have to shoot well &amp; maintain position to string racks together, but if your Break Shot isn't there or you go cold in making a ball on the Break... winning racks may still get you the match win, but you won't be running racks.


<hr /></blockquote>

I guess I have been used to playing 8 ball so have been practicing that break. it has steadily gotten better and stronger. Now the balls bust apart, no clusters and no scratches, but usually nothing falls. Since I am starting 9ball league on monday, I decided to practice that break.When I have been practicing the 9ball break, 1-2 balls fall, still no scratches and the one is usually where I can shoot it, even if it is not perfect position.

What is the differnce between 8 ball and 9 ball breaks other than more balls in 8 ball? Since i was using the same technique on both, I am wondering why they fall in 9 ball but not in 8ball.

Laura

05-17-2003, 11:41 AM
well as for breaks, i dont often get the chance to break racks wide open because i play more straight &amp; 1p then i do 8 &amp; 9ball, But when i do play them i usually break from and angle and i treat the break like any other shot with the exeception what i use a complete &amp; thrustfull stroke. i never scratch and usually drop about 3 or 4 balls and then run out after i walk around the table once or twice.

Sid_Vicious
05-17-2003, 11:50 AM
lemme guess that your league is not a B&amp;R bunch of talented players. That being the case, just concentrate on making a ball and holding the CB, cuz even if you miss making a ball...the talent depth will leave you with fewer ball to run for the 9 once that miss(and they will without much doubt.) "More games are won in local leagues not by winners but due to being lost by losers." Think about that, Grrrrrr ;-) sid

Tom_In_Cincy
05-17-2003, 12:12 PM
Great observation Sid,

One ball at a time, keep focused on the shot you are shooting.

Thinking of anything else is just a distraction from your current shot.

Rod
05-17-2003, 01:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It seems it comes down to cue ball control. <hr /></blockquote>

LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

bluewolf
05-17-2003, 02:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> lemme guess that your league is not a B&amp;R bunch of talented players. That being the case, just concentrate on making a ball and holding the CB, cuz even if you miss making a ball...the talent depth will leave you with fewer ball to run for the 9 once that miss(and they will without much doubt.) "More games are won in local leagues not by winners but due to being lost by losers." Think about that, Grrrrrr ;-) sid <hr /></blockquote>

I have never played 9 ball cept with ww and a couple of other people. i signed up for it hoping it would help my cue ball control. Since it goes 1-8, I am assuming that this is true. Just like it is true in apa 8ball, where the average seven will run one rack a set, make 1-2 errors per rack, avg six 3 errors per rack and more errors as you go down. i occasionally see sixes run rack but a rarely a five, so assume 9 ball is pretty much the same.

Laura

Tom_In_Cincy
05-17-2003, 02:03 PM
bw,
I hope you're keeping track of all the information you have learned/aquired in the last 12 months. There is a huge book that can be compiled, and now that you have the time for this, it would be great to offer it to the newbies for APA leagues.

bluewolf
05-17-2003, 02:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> bw,
I hope you're keeping track of all the information you have learned/aquired in the last 12 months. There is a huge book that can be compiled, and now that you have the time for this, it would be great to offer it to the newbies for APA leagues. <hr /></blockquote>

I signed up 1 year ago, but only posted one or two times because the people here knew stuff I had never heard of and I was intimidated.

WW talked me into posting starting last august, saying that the ccbers liked to help begineers.

BTW, nobody listens. Sometimes they dont even listen to the sevens. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

Tom_In_Cincy
05-17-2003, 02:28 PM
bluewolf wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, nobody listens. Sometimes they dont even listen to the sevens.
<hr /></blockquote>

They may not listen, but they do watch and, at some point in time, they will ask about something that your book might cover in detail.

Its worth a shot, kinda like Ewa's "Pool for Dummies" book. You could author a "APA Pool for Dummies" book.

bluewolf
05-17-2003, 02:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>
They may not listen, but they do watch and, at some point in time, they will ask about something that your book might cover in detail.

Its worth a shot, kinda like Ewa's "Pool for Dummies" book. You could author a "APA Pool for Dummies" book. <hr /></blockquote>

Even better, I could wait a year and call it "Running Racks APA style"

Laura

Tom_In_Cincy
05-17-2003, 02:41 PM
Laura,
Why wait? you could start rite now and just list all the subjects covered in the last few months and spend time on one of them at a time, explaining them in detials that a newbie at the APA would understand and appreciate.

bluewolf
05-17-2003, 02:48 PM
Geez. I already started writing two books (one 1/3 finished) and I havent finished them either.

"Why do today what you can put off til tomorrow?" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

arn3
05-17-2003, 03:58 PM
pocketing skills require the ability to pocket at many different speeds with use of english. positioning is the result of your command of these skills. position play improves with your comfort level in pocketing.

chances are, when you approach a difficult shot, you will only use one speed, and one kind of english,,the one you are comfortable with in order to execute the shot. this is where your position game falters. even when the shot is fairly routine, i'll bet there is a subconcsious level that allows you to hit the cb only a certain way.

we are more limited than we think.

Popcorn
05-17-2003, 04:36 PM
Kind of a catch 22 thing going on there. Better position play makes for better ball pocketing, because you have easier shots, which makes for better position play because easier shots let you do more with the cue ball and not risk a miss. When it finally begins working, you see a player jump in skill level almost overnight. The jump I believe is due though to the better position, again because shots are more manageable. Even a great shot maker can't control the cue ball much when it is all they can do just to keep making the object ball, so they are doing the same thing in reverse because they play in a constant state of crisis management. If you take a player like Ray Martin, or Danny DiLiberto, you can take away a lot of their shot making skills and you may not notice. Their cue ball control is so good they have less need for them. There is also less pressure on the player that once he is in line knows they can control their own fate from there on without worry. The great thing for the weaker player is, they really have a lot to look forward to. If they are working at it, when their game begins to come together, they will probably play better then they ever imagined. They look at say, a good player in their area they admire and say I wish I could play like that. The fact is, they probably can. Only so many players are gifted, the rest worked at it. From being in the pool room business and hanging out for so many years, I stopped being amazed at how players can improve with work. A guy you thought would never be able to play a lick, ends up winning tournaments. Back to the original theme here, I fully believe position is everything. You can't play good pool by chance or being surprised all the time. You need to know what the cueball is going to do, you can't be guessing. Players that seem to have a lot of heart, may actually just play a less pressured game then another player because they know what they are doing. If they had to deal with some of the runouts other players have to, they may be dogging it themselves. I just don't see anyone's game going beyond a certain point, without very good cueball control. With it the sky's the limit.

05-17-2003, 04:47 PM
i'd also like to add, that 99% of the time i get out is because i always try to keep and angle on all of my ob ball, that way theirs not to much for me to do with the cb, just control my speed.

keep and angle

bluewolf
05-17-2003, 06:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote muujahid:</font><hr> i'd also like to add, that 99% of the time i get out is because i always try to keep and angle on all of my ob ball, that way theirs not to much for me to do with the cb, just control my speed.

keep and angle <hr /></blockquote>

My rudimentary position skills are based on angles off rails and cb speed. I also use draw, and stop or follow a few inches and the 'let it drift' method. You know, you hit a ball soft and it comes off the rail a bit so that it will drift a short way.

I understand top, low, ie, oe (basically) but can only use side spin on easy shots.I also found out that oe can send it so far down the table, it is at the wrong end, based on where I want it to be.I know everyone says ie is horrible, but it seems to take the ball to the middle of the table or the spot (head or foot depending on end I am at)which is easier for me to control right now.

If the shot is long or especially long and difficult, I can often make the shot, but not with english.

I think that my position skills would be better once I can make those hard shots with confidence and also more experience with english, with is now kind of rudimentary.

I know you cannot learn it from a book but the berne book and the capelle book have helped me to see the concepts.

Laura

9 Ball Girl
05-18-2003, 06:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Running racks happens easier when you forget about the run entirely. Almost all of my runs... I've had to be told about. "hey, B&amp;R Guy" "Was it, I forget." I said. I can remember the busted runs though, thinking about the run out and hosing shape late in the finish...sid <hr /></blockquote>

This is true. I broke and ran twice in a row a week ago against my friend and I hadn't noticed it until I was set to break for the 3rd time and he said, "Are you going to do it a 3rd time?" and I was like, "What are you talking about?". Well, he told me and when I started to pay attention, or get out of my zone, I couldn't do it. Go figure.

arn3
05-18-2003, 10:01 PM
yes and no on the catch-22 thing. i know your point, but the bottom line in pool is "make the damn shot". almost any teacher will instruct a pupil on some sort of method of ball control when approaching a shot. but they will also end with "ok, so now you know everything you have to do to the CB. now focus and make the damn shot. never leave the table on a miss."
i play 14.1 and used to think much like you. but i keep missing the damn shot and leaving the open table to my opponent.

danny d and martin,,,,take away their pocketing and their position play won't help. a player learns to pocket before he learns position. one definitely comes before the other.

bluewolf
05-19-2003, 03:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Kind of a catch 22 thing going on there. Better position play makes for better ball pocketing, because you have easier shots, which makes for better position play because easier shots let you do more with the cue ball and not risk a miss.<hr /></blockquote>

Now this is why I want to learn shape. So that an easy shot is turned into an easier one. I suspect though that shape is acquired the same way as potting balls, time on the table.

Laura

05-19-2003, 08:12 AM
If I feel like I am the better player in the match or have the match advantage, I am going to opt for the re-set on the match....More so if the other guy has the break in a 9-ball match...I would rather play the longer race...in case a dog a ball somewhere I don't want it to cost me the match....If I feel like I am in a bad game.....then I will opt for playing the single game and if I lose I then have options...JMO....RC

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> "the first guy asks if he wants to start over to 9 and play for $100."

Assuming there is no adjustment in the weight, when would somebody chose to reset the counter and take this new set? I've had offers like this, most of the time with a weight change and except for added weight, I always turned it down. Opinions???sid <hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn
05-19-2003, 09:03 AM
Quote
"i play 14.1 and used to think much like you. but i keep missing the damn shot and leaving the open table to my opponent."

Why were you missing the shots if you were in position?

NBC-BOB
05-19-2003, 12:28 PM
The name of the game is cue ball control.It doesn't make any difference what game your playing.Just look at the top players and thats all you see,cue ball control!

KerryM
05-19-2003, 12:58 PM
Laura,
I have been playing APA 9-ball for a couple of seasons now. The best thing it has done for me is taught me to control the cue bal on the BREAK. This is absolutely critical, particularly for me. I am a SL-8, and I have to go to 65 balls. If I'm playing a 4, they only need 31. Every time I scratch on the break, its like giving them a few balls for free. How well you "run racks" is obviously dependent on how well you control the cue ball, but really the break is the key to multiple racks. I have been really working on my break a lot. I went on a radar gun, and with a cracked ferrule and a pretty crappy break, I hit 24mph. I think my max is probably about 26 mph. Now that may be as fast as Johnny Archer (he is supposedly around 25mph), but I can only put the cue ball in the center of the table maybe 50% of the time at that speed. 50% is just not good enough. So what I'm doing now is hitting the rack at about 20 mph, maybe even less, but with dead square contact with the one ball. My cue ball hops maybe 3 inches and stops right there. I average a ball on about 90% of my breaks, scratch maybe 5% of the time, and frequently make 3, 4, even 5 balls. It is amazing how much of a benefit the CONTROL brings over the POWER.
One differnece between 8-ball and 9-ball is that the 9 ball rack is 6 balls less massive. A softer hit will put those 9 balls all overthe table. It seems like in 8-ball, the extra power is better, because there are so many more balls to shoot after the break. I find I run more racks when I smash the hell out of the rack, unless I am brekaing for the second ball. Then my speed would be less than my 9-ball break.

Anyway, for 9-ball, strive mostly for CONTROL on the break.

My $0.02

KerryM