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PQQLK9
05-23-2003, 08:04 AM
In response to Lee Shry's quote

"If these people [at the Expo] want a lily-white, smoke-free place to play,why not stay home?"

I say if you want a dirty, stinky, nasty place to smoke then why don't you stay home.

Wally_in_Cincy
05-23-2003, 08:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PQQLK9:</font><hr> In response to Lee Shry's quote

"If these people [at the Expo] want a lily-white, smoke-free place to play,why not stay home?"

I say if you want a dirty, stinky, nasty place to smoke then why don't you stay home.
<hr /></blockquote>

I haven't read the letter but in this day and age I don't think it would be asking too much to have folks go outside or have a designated smoking area.

When I was up there in 2000 there was a set of doors that opened to sort of a courtyard right outside the pro arena. That would be good place to send the smokers.

Wally~~smoker

PQQLK9
05-23-2003, 08:42 AM
Good point Wally.I truly believe that smokers have a right to smoke and others have a right to breathe . After all we would not s**t in public.

heater451
05-23-2003, 08:46 AM
I know that the smoking issue has been flogged several times here, but I just wanted to say that, I've know people who used cocaine or heroin, but were able to go between uses longer than the smokers I know--and they compare nicotine and heroin addiction all the time. . . .

I'm fairly ambivalent about 2nd-hand smoke, but sometimes wish that smoky places would consider extra ventilation.


==========================

05-23-2003, 09:20 AM
If are going to a place where you know there will be second hand smoke or a lack of any non-smoking sections, then avoid the place. Itís a really simple solution. I am sick of non-smokers thinking smokers should bend to their will. When you start buying my smokes then you can tell me where and when I can light. The second-hand smoke isnít going to be a health hazard to you unless you are exposed to it for long periods of time. So avoid second hand smoke for long periods of time. You are not going to die from being in a pool hall for a couple hours with second hand smoke.

PQQLK9
05-23-2003, 09:52 AM
Ignorance is a sickness of which Knowledge is the only cure.

Ken
05-23-2003, 10:58 AM
Txshooter, It's people like you that caused me to decide not to go to the expo this year. So you are quite correct, it is possible for me to avoid your smoke. Oh, and thanks for ruining the place the year before. I inquired why they didn't do something about it and was told it's too hard to enforce a smoking ban.

I used to feel that the anti-smoking laws were going too far. Your attitude has changed my mind and I will support any law that infringes on your anti social act.

It won't be long before you can't smoke in or within 50 feet of any enclosed space. That includes your car and your home if there are any people under the age of 18 present and I support that 100%. Enjoy yourself while you can. I hope you live long enough to see that happen.
KenCT

Cueless Joey
05-23-2003, 11:09 AM
That smoke stink in your clothes might be forever though.
I'm sick of smokers who still think they have the right to stink up any place.
I wish everybody would copy California's anti-smoking law.
Nobody misses the good ole days of smoke filled pool halls here.

Predator314
05-23-2003, 11:24 AM
I don't smoke. However, I've been around cigarette smoke in the pool halls and bars for a while. It can stink up the clothes pretty bad and I can definitely can do without it. But when I go to a pool hall and/or bar, I expect there to be a smoke-filled environment.

cycopath
05-23-2003, 11:31 AM
3 1/2 years ago you would have got me arguing with you about smoke bans. But I have quit smoking, and would like to be about to come home from the poolhall and not have to feel like I need to burn my clothes that I wore there. It's bad for business when customers have to leave because their eyes are burning from the smoke in the air. I don't see where it would be that bad making people go to a designated area (outside) to smoke.
But then again live and let live I say.

05-23-2003, 12:01 PM
Earth to Ken. The world doesnít revolve around you. Accept it. Like I said if you donít want to be around smoke, no one is forcing you to go play at a pool hall where there is smoke. It is your choice. And if you decide to go out to a pool hall why should everyone abide by what you want? I donít like to be around self-centered know-it-alls who think everyone should agree with them, but if I wanted to shoot pool and the only place to was where you were at, I guess I would have to put up with that.

heater451
05-23-2003, 12:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ken:</font><hr>. . .Enjoy yourself while you can. I hope you live long enough to see that happen.
KenCT <hr /></blockquote>Take it easy on them Ken--smokers are a dying breed. . . .


================

TonyMN
05-23-2003, 12:46 PM
I play in a cancer benefit tournament each year, and my wife wanted to bring the kids along to see me play a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, smoking was permitted, and it was in a poorly ventilated area, so she kept the kids home.

We had to laugh at the irony of having all that smoke at a cancer benefit.

Tony in MN.

Deeman
05-23-2003, 01:01 PM
Don't worry, soon smoking, drinking and being self-rightous will all be banned and we will all be safe, none of our clothes will smell and our children will be safe (except from Priests, politicians and social police).

Let's just agree that smoking is bad for you, not smoking makes you a better person and that the market will determine what is best at expos, bars and churches until the government decides better for you. Smokers can go to smoking poolhalls and non-smokers to non-smoking ones. Hey, it works in New York and California.

A good solution was put forward in that a "place" could be set aside for the sinners and they can be banished to that area when they need to smoke or drink or wear that discustingly cheap perfume that irritates my eyes.

Aboo
05-23-2003, 01:31 PM
That's a real nice double standard, and this argument has always humored me.
Both sides say "If you don't like it, go somewhere else!", but both think the other is being self-righteous and high-handed. In reality, both sides are being a bit ignorant if you ask me.

Smoking is no more damaging to a person than that cheese-burger and fries your wolfing down from McDonalds, or that Jack and Coke you had just before you left to go home.

The fact is, that they are ALL evil. Banning them will NOT work. You see how well banning liquor worked in the past...
There must be compromise. It might be cost prohibitive for a business to put a decent ventilation system in to accomodate smokers and non-smokers alike, but in the long run, it will not be. Because they will garner more customers from both sides of the fence.

If you ban smoking in my pool hall, I won't go. And I don't smoke anymore. Haven't for a few years. But your are infringing on my personal, constitutional rights. It's like saying I can't pray in school. Or I can't say Pres. Bush is an idiot. You might not like it, but I don't give a damn. I listen to you, tolerate your beliefs and allow you to live with your convictions. I have the god-given right, regardless of where I live, to speak out for what I believe in and act on my convictions.

If ANYONE, from either side, is to short-sighted to see that... I feel sorry for you. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Cueless Joey
05-23-2003, 01:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman:</font><hr> Don't worry, soon smoking, drinking and being self-rightous will all be banned and we will all be safe, none of our clothes will smell and our children will be safe (except from Priests, politicians and social police).

Let's just agree that smoking is bad for you, not smoking makes you a better person and that the market will determine what is best at expos, bars and churches until the government decides better for you. Smokers can go to smoking poolhalls and non-smokers to non-smoking ones. Hey, it works in New York and California.

A good solution was put forward in that a "place" could be set aside for the sinners and they can be banished to that area when they need to smoke or drink or wear that discustingly cheap perfume that irritates my eyes.

<hr /></blockquote>
Are you playing the "moral card"?
Smoking is not a moral issue in my books.
My father smoked for decades until he had a heart attack. His doctor told him to quit so he did. My mother is a nicotine addict and is hopeless. She cannot quit.
Here in California, smokers are allowed to smoke outside of public places. Small dinky bars still allow smoking since nobody complains there. I don't go to those places that often since I hate barbox pool anyway.
Since the smokers have had their way for decades. Maybe the non-smokers can have their way for decades?
I smoke cigars too but I only smoke with friends.

KerryM
05-23-2003, 01:33 PM
txshooter said: "I am sick of non-smokers thinking smokers should bend to their will"

Could you please explain how this is different than you saying "I want to smoke, and I don't care if it bothers other people--they should bend to my will."
You hear where I'm coming from? I wonder if you have ever considered that pool as a sport or hobby is stronger and better with more participants. tourneys will be larger with bigger payouts, etc. Shouldn't we want as many people as possible to be involved. Is it really such a big deal for you to be considerate of other people, other players, and just take 5 minutes to go outside? The point is not that non-smokers want to make you "bend to their will", it is that all people want other people to be courteous and respectful to them. If you *know* that your smoking is bothersome to other people, are you really so defensive about it that you have to believe that *they* are wrong for being bothered, rather than that you are wrong for bothering them? No one likes to think of themselves as being irritating to other people. In fact, many many people are just not capable of it. Their only recourse is to find a way to turn the situation around and "blame" their accusers. TX, your not alone in this, believe me. A girl on my pool team is a nicotine addict, and chain smokes though every match. If anyone says anything at all like, "I'm going to go sit over here (why?) because the smoke is getting to me", she goes into a defensive fit, because really her mind is just not capable of processing the guilt she feels for being so offensive to those around her

TXShooter went on to say: "So avoid second hand smoke for long periods of time. You are not going to die from being in a pool hall for a couple hours with second hand smoke."

TXshooter,
I would be interested to see your research supporting this. I think the mentality that says what you just said is the same one that says "well, one cigarette isn't going to kill me." You keep saying that to yourself, and get back to me in 30 years with a report of the health of your lungs.

The libertarian in me believes that the proprietors of any business ought to be allowed to run it as they see fit. They should be able to allow smoking if they want, the same way they should be able to admit only men, only people of particular race, etc. However, this does not make such business practices *right*. It just follows the least common denomenator mentality of our sad society. The market should be able to determine what practices will be tolerated and which ones won't. The fact of the matter is that smoking is bad for you. It is bad for anyone around you. It is therefore *STUPID*. If you think otherwise, you should start considering the possibility that you, too, are not all that bright.

I wish so much, TXShooter, that you could intelligently point out to me what the difference is between you inconveniencing me with your toxic smoke which may ultimately kill me, and me inconveniencing you with a request to go outside while you kill yourself. I'll tell you what the difference is. We both have a reasonable desire not to be bothered. You think your desire is more important, for some reason. But here is the main difference. Fulfilling your desire may kill me, while fulfilling my desire causes you absolutely NO additional harm (than what you have already agreed to inflict on yourself.)

I hope you and the many other millions of people who smoke in public come to terms with your offensiveness and step up and become better people. It really isn't a lot to ask, that is what's so unbelievable about it.

KerryM (former smoker)

nAz
05-23-2003, 01:39 PM
Deeman there is no choice here in NYC you can't smoke in any public place anymore. Seems to me that not to many of the player mind it too much, they just step out side lite up and run back in frezing from the cold weather, in the winter that is /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
The people that do not like it much are the card players, you know how hard it is to walk a way from a card table.
oh well my cloths and hair smells better when i get home at least /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Deeman
05-23-2003, 01:57 PM
Naz,

Yes, I guess I was surfing the moral high ground a bit too much. I go many places and don't smoke if it is not allowed. I do like to smoke when I play pool so I select those places based on that and other criteria. Just give me a place and I'll smoke there but don't keep me enclosed for hours and not let me have a place to smoke.

It's funny, but I agree most people who smoke will smoke too much when given free reign with it. That's what was bad at the Expo, it seemed 75% of the people smoked but maybe it was just that a lot of people lit one after another, almost like they enjoyed making smoke!!

I don't know, there got to be a solution for everyone short of banning everything we do. Pass me a Big Mac! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

eg8r
05-23-2003, 02:08 PM
Just because I like a good debate, explain to me this...Why is it your personal right to smoke in another persons private establishment.

Overall, it is unfair to non-smokers because they are forced to breath it when they would rather not, and it is unfair to smokers because they now have to take a walk outside to smoke. The only difference here, is that your right to smoke was not taken away, you just have to do it outside (it is not like you quit your job becuase you could not smoke there), however the non-smokers right to clean air has been taken away if you are allowed to smoke in the building (do we have rights to breath clean air?).

eg8r

Predator314
05-23-2003, 02:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyMN:</font><hr> I play in a cancer benefit tournament each year, and my wife wanted to bring the kids along to see me play a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, smoking was permitted, and it was in a poorly ventilated area, so she kept the kids home.

We had to laugh at the irony of having all that smoke at a cancer benefit.

Tony in MN. <hr /></blockquote>

This has to be one of the craziest things I've ever heard. Smoking at a cancer benefit.

eg8r
05-23-2003, 02:25 PM
Like you, I do expect to smell the smoke when I go to a pool hall. I guess one has to make concessions if they want to go play pool. Here in Tx it will only be a matter of time before the smokers are required the same.

eg8r &lt;~~Might not have to worry about Tx law soon, I think I am headed back to FL.

Aboo
05-23-2003, 02:26 PM
First, you'll still have to breathe it in, coming and going from the establishment.
Second, you made a point of it being private. Pool halls are private, and they have the right to force their clientel to do anything they want. Stop smoking, or breathe the second hand smoke. In an expo environment with large, community arenas involved, these are public establishments, they are owned by the local government, they are inviting the public, smokers and non-smokers alike, to enter that venue.

My primary point in the whole argument is that there are much more destructive things, drinking for one, yet no one thinks of banning them. Why?

Because smoking smells bad? So does your breathe after a beer. Or the floor after you release bodily fluids onto it.

I understand the concerns with 2nd hand smoke, the reality is that a decent ventilation system in a building would take care of that issue. So what is the issue? I like to smoke, you like to drink. Why can't we do it side by side? Because folks think it's easier to force a life-style change than to force a business to care for their customers. And they might be right, who knows.

But outlawing cigarrettes is ludicrous. If you outlaw them, you had better outlaw alchohol first. If you don't, my name will be at the top of the list of the letters to congress and the senate.

UWPoolGod
05-23-2003, 02:33 PM
Firstly I have never smoked, and don't plan to, don't even understand it. The thing that I find funny about smoking is that you spend all of this money on cigarettes, and a good portion of it just burns up sitting in the ashtray. That is the one main thing that I hate when being around smokers is the time spent that noone, not even the smoker, is getting anything out of the cigarrete burning. This is especially terrible in poolhalls when people light up and then leave it to go shoot at the table, letting their cig entrails leak up to the ceiling and fill the room. And think makes people light up cig after cig since they aren't getting all that they could out of their cigarrete.

If they really want to try something besides banning smoking they should fine people who leave their cigarette burning without smoking it. I would make them put it out after each drag, but you know that is never going to happen.

Todd &lt;-- baffled by smokers

eg8r
05-23-2003, 02:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But outlawing cigarrettes is ludicrous. If you outlaw them, you had better outlaw alchohol first. If you don't, my name will be at the top of the list of the letters to congress and the senate <hr /></blockquote> I have been in many dry counties. No alcohol is sold there, so all the locals make their exodus across county lines to buy their booze. Then they drive back home where they drink it up and wreak havoc on the neighbors. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I do not drink (maybe 1 beer a month) and I do not smoke. I would not mind a perfectly virgin pool hall, however, I still go to the smoky ones with all the drunks. Until either is outlawed, I will have to make due.

eg8r

05-23-2003, 02:38 PM
From eg8r:

The only difference here, is that your right to smoke was not taken away, you just have to do it outside (it is not like you quit your job becuase you could not smoke there), however the non-smokers right to clean air has been taken away if you are allowed to smoke in the building (do we have rights to breath clean air?).

Good point ... an old standard, I think, is "Your rights end at my nose." It's probably true that the health risk in smoky places is only for employees, but the stench is a major nuisance for the rest of us. I mean, do you have the right to bring a boom box into a pool hall ... or your dog, or your screaming baby?

UWPoolGod
05-23-2003, 02:49 PM
Did you see where a woman making over $100K/year who got promoted to a different office where smoking was allowed. She was fired a month later after numerous complaints about the smoke since she has athsma. She sued and won $5.8 million(or so) for wrongful firing since athsma is listed as a condition where the employer must go out of his was to make the area workable for her.

05-23-2003, 02:57 PM
Remember that case ... kind of funny, really, thinking one person's discomfort and unfair firing is worth that many millions. But this ain't 1950 ... offices aren't a place to belch fumes anymore, nor are planes, buses or movie theaters. Guess the whole thing's just a change in etiquette ...

05-23-2003, 03:17 PM
My God, txshooter, how incredibly arrogant can one person be?

As has been pointed out more eloquently than I ever could, you're being an inconsiderate hypocrite. I don't personally care WHAT you do to your own body, and I'll never lobby for your cigs to be taken away from you. Kill yourself slowly for all I care (which is exactly what you're doing). But you have NO RIGHT to invade my personal space (including my lungs) with your smoke. And I have as much right as you to attend the Expo or any other public event without suffering from the poison you release into the air I breathe.

It all comes down to personal responsibility and consideration of others. It's hard to believe in this day of the information age that you could be so blind and in denial as to the negative effects of smoking, both firsthand and secondhand. And if you're not, that means you don't give a rat's a$$ about what it does to others. Again, if you choose to do it at home, or elsewhere that it doesn't bother people, then fine, it's your right to abuse your own body. But not mine. It's no different than the inconsiderate idiots who pull up beside me at the redlight with their stereo bass pounding so loud my vehicle and skull resonates such that I get a migrane. Like was said: YOUR RIGHTS CEASE TO EXIST WHEN THEY INFRINGE ON MY RIGHT TO PEACE, HEALTH, AND PRIVACY.

And whoever referred to smoking as a "Constitutional right" needs to go back to grade school civics class. There is no such Constitutional protection. The Constitution protects certain inalienable personal rights, including free speech and freedom of religion, but only to the extent that they do not infringe on other people's rights to peace and safety. For example, the right to practice religion does not allow you to commit human sacrifice in the name of your religion. And libel, slander, or yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater are not protected by free speech. Don't confuse lack of prohibition against something with a "right" to do that thing. Nowhere does it say you have the right to spew poison into the air I breathe. Likewise but off-topic, prayer in school is also not forbidden by the Constitution, but unfortunately some people think the Constitution is an instrument protecting them from everything they don't agree with...

And I want to express my appreciation to you smokers who understand the nature of this issue. I salute you, and I support your freedom to smoke outdoors or in designated areas of public places. If I'm EVER doing anything that someone is sensitive to, and they are reasonable about it, I'll make every reasonable effort to accommodate them. Maybe it's just how I was raised, I don't know.

/end rant

HalSmith
05-23-2003, 07:14 PM
Well Txshooter since everyone else is telling you what a disrespectful idiot you are , I'll throw my vote in with them. You have no respect for someone health to say you have your right to blow smoke in their face and from what you sound like your saying if they don't like it, do something about it.I used to smoke until they told me I had cancer of the throat from smoking. I only hope you catch the cancer like I had and then tell me about the smokers rights.I don't care if you smoke, that just tells me how stupid you are about your health. But I do wish you wouldn't do it where I have to breathe your left over smoke. ---Smitty

pooljunkie73
05-23-2003, 08:04 PM
Good topic!As a hardcore smoker and a poolhall employee,i would rather see the poolhall as NON-SMOKING.This might suprise some of you but,it is the biggest pain in the ass dealing with smokers in the hall.Besides cleaning ashtrays every 5 min. you have to tell them to stop smoking over the tables every 2 min..I have no problem going outside for a smoke when i need one....pooljunkie73 /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Qtec
05-23-2003, 09:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote txshooter:</font><hr> If are going to a place where you know there will be second hand smoke or a lack of any non-smoking sections, then avoid the place. Itís a really simple solution. I am sick of non-smokers thinking smokers should bend to their will. When you start buying my smokes then you can tell me where and when I can light. The second-hand smoke isnít going to be a health hazard to you unless you are exposed to it for long periods of time. So avoid second hand smoke for long periods of time. You are not going to die from being in a pool hall for a couple hours with second hand smoke. <hr /></blockquote>Right on tx.I,m sick of people moaning about smokers.I would like to challenge this guy PQQLK9 to a contest.We are both locked into seperate rooms, both with only one very small window.Me with my cigs and you with your VW or whatever.I will start smoking and you start your car engine.After 5 minutes you will be begging for some second hand smoke,if you are still alive.So next time you start your car,ask yourself this"How many people am i going to poison today"."Truth is the fountain of all knowledge".Keep it real.Qtec.

Candyman
05-23-2003, 09:20 PM
If you don't know the difference between a VW and a Mercedez, smoke as possibly affected you eye sight! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

UWPoolGod
05-23-2003, 09:36 PM
Strange...I never noticed how much car exhaust affects me INDOORS. Since I have never frequented indoor motorcross/bumper cars/monstertruck shows in have no frame of reference. That may be where you hang out and exhaust may make you upset. I see what your getting at...I will be considerate and shut my car off the next time I park it in between the 12x6 and billiard table. Sorry.

eg8r
05-23-2003, 10:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
So next time you start your car,ask yourself this"How many people am i going to poison today"." <hr /></blockquote>

Well, some of your other posts have shown a bit of knowledge behind them, but this post does not. This is childish, since you know that you are poisioning the air and I guess you feel the need to drag in everyone with you. Sort of pity and I have seen it worked a lot better on a playground between 5 year olds. Since you bring it up, please explain how you are going to compare a closed building (lets choose a poolroom) where the ventilation is poor and you are puffing away, and a vehicle that is spewing exhaust into the air in the wide open with no walls to trap the gases. Surely you might bring up the smog issue, but the smog is not blamed solely on the use of transportation.

This is quite a weak argument, but please amuse us as you try to explain it some.

eg8r

05-24-2003, 01:43 AM
Smitty and the rest of you, read what I posted and not what you think I posted. First off I donít blow smoke in anyoneís face. That is just rude. I am not out to invade someoneís personal space. If I go to someoneís home that doesnít smoke, I am not going to just light up. Again rude. Someone pointed out that a pool hall is a private establishment. If the owner of the place chooses to allow smokers in his place of business, who are you to tell him he cannot? If you want to ban the smoking, ban the drinking too. That affects your driving, I donít like the idea of a drunk on the same road as me.
This really cracked me up. YOUR RIGHTS CEASE TO EXIST WHEN THEY INFRINGE ON MY RIGHT TO PEACE, HEALTH, AND PRIVACY. Like I said donít go to a place where there is second hand smoke and your rights wonít be messed with. It canít get more simple than that. I donít mind smoking in a designated area, thatís fine with me. But in most cases this isnít good enough for non-smokers and they want to eliminate everything.
Yall need to understand, if you make the choice to go into a place of business, you are choosing to abide by what that business allows and doesnít allow and if that business allows smoking, put up with or donít walk in the door. This ainít a hard concept folks. Most of yall are intelligent enough to get on a computer, hit the internet, post on this board, you should be able to grasp this.

Qtec
05-24-2003, 02:03 AM
OK,for the record.Smoking is waste of money,its very bad for your health,its addictive and i would not recommend it to anyone.I believe that the owner of a bar or PH should have the right to decide if smoking is allowed or not.Thats called freedom of choice.In an ideal world every club should have a seperate smoking area .The reason for the smoking ban is based on health grounds;that second hand smoke could be harmful to your health,not because it smells.In a club where smoking is allowed,the non smoker has the choice to stay or not,he has a choice.Imagine a dye was added to gas[petrol]so that instead of being colourless it was blue.If you stood on any corner,in downtown NY,i bet you could,nt see your hand in front of your face.Think of all those cars in the USA pumping out all those fumes ,all day,everyday.Just because you cant see something doesnt say that it isnt there and just because its outside doesnt mean that it doesnt count.We all breath the same air,indoors and outdoors.The most recent study into passive smoking shows that there is more chance of drowning in the bathtub than being harmed by second hand smoking,so lets keep things in perspective.Its easy to point the finger.If smoking is so bad for your health,why can you still buy them and why are American cigarette companies[the biggest in the world]allowed to flood third world countries with cheap cigs? To be continued. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

eg8r
05-24-2003, 08:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If smoking is so bad for your health,why can you still buy them and why are American cigarette companies[the biggest in the world]allowed to flood third world countries with cheap cigs? To be continued. <hr /></blockquote> There are plenty of products that are bad for your health. It is self-responsibility that is the problem. If people would own up to their actions then these types of companies would go under.

I cannot wait till you continue. Maybe in your next post you could try and include all the non-smokers who don't drive. What are they doing to pollute the air. You have shown that smokers don't want to be picked on because they are spewing extra crap into the air, so you tried to bring in car exhaust to help remove some of the blame from the smokers. The car exhaust is lame because we don't have a choice whether or not we go outside, our jobs and recreation are not all located inside our house.

eg8r

smfsrca
05-24-2003, 09:32 AM
I notice that a good number of people are responding to this from the perspective that you have a choice and can choose not to go into a smoking establishment and that a brief exposure to second hand smoke is relatively harmless.
I would like to point out that the non-smoking law is written to protect the workers in these establishments, not the patrons. The workers have no choice and are exposed repeatedly and constantly everytime they go to work. Now, I suppose you could allow a business to hire smokers only, this however is not be possible in a democracy where the majority rules and smoking is not a protected right.
So, regardless of what anyone thinks, the prevailing direction of the law is moving toward non-smoking in all public places of employment as has already been done in California. There is no way of stopping this particular train and and argument to the contrary is pointless.
Steve in CA (smoker 40 years, ex-smoker 6 months)

Qtec
05-24-2003, 10:44 AM
Thats the whole point,i have to go outside.Where is my right to breath "fresh air".Why not just ban smoking completely?I,ll tell you why not ,because then you can,t export these filthy,smelly,highly toxic "cancer sticks"to the rest of the world and make money out of it!Smoke in the workplace was never an issue until somebody discoverd that you could sue your boss and make millions of dollars.It has nothing to do with health.For this reason i accept the fact that the smokers days are over.Have a little sympathy for the poor smoker,all he wants is to shoot some pool,drink a beer and smoke a cigarette in the same building.Is that too much to ask? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

MikeM
05-24-2003, 10:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> If smoking is so bad for your health,why can you still buy them and why are American cigarette companies[the biggest in the world]allowed to flood third world countries with cheap cigs? To be continued. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Time for you to educate yourself.

http://www.thetruth.com/

Qtec
05-24-2003, 11:07 AM
That was a rehtorical question Mike,we all know the answer.Thanks for the info though.

heater451
05-24-2003, 11:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote smfsrca:</font><hr> . . .Now, I suppose you could allow a business to hire smokers only, this however is not be possible in a democracy where the majority rules and smoking is not a protected right. . . .<hr /></blockquote>It's possible, but it won't happen.

Also, I think that a business could offer waivers, if the non-smoking workers wanted to be employed there. The catch there is 'right to work' I suppose--which brings up a different issue, that of how employers are pretty much able to hire or fire you for any reason, as long they don't tell you what that reason is. . . .


========================

heater451
05-24-2003, 12:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote txshooter:</font><hr> . . .Yall need to understand, if you make the choice to go into a place of business, you are choosing to abide by what that business allows and doesnít allow and if that business allows smoking, put up with or donít walk in the door. . . . .<hr /></blockquote>Ah, there's the rub!

Aside from the argument that the law is for the workers, it's true that there is choice involved, which, IMO should belong to the business owners.

However, if an owner chooses to allow smoking, and the majority of his clientele decide to go somewhere non-smoking, he might change his mind.

It's all about the money folks. . . .



=====================

eg8r
05-24-2003, 02:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Have a little sympathy for the poor smoker,all he wants is to shoot some pool,drink a beer and smoke a cigarette in the same building.Is that too much to ask? <hr /></blockquote> I think pity would be a better choice. I ask the same though, what about the non-smoker that wants to go to the same ph, play some pool and not smell like you cig.

Either way you look at it, someone is inconvenienced. So, instead of telling you, "No smoking at all." the ph will now offer you the parking lot. If you take a few minutes every now and then, the non-smoker will not fault you. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

eg8r

eg8r
05-24-2003, 02:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Aside from the argument that the law is for the workers, it's true that there is choice involved, which, IMO should belong to the business owners. <hr /></blockquote> This is true. I understand the law being about the employees, but they themselves had a choice also. A business is a private entity and they should be able to choose to do what they want. I don't smoke but have accepted the fact that my peers do, and if I want to play with them, then I know that I am going to deal with burning eyes, and some nasty smelling clothes.

This choice should be left up to the business owner, just like Augusta doesn't allow women ph should be allowed to allow smoking. If an employee does not like the working conditions then he/she should quit. Government is too large as it is, and it is now stepping in an telling a private business how it should be run.

eg8r

Qtec
05-24-2003, 09:54 PM
Lets say that we are playing each other in a PH thats adopted your policy.Lets say,being a chronic smoker and a nervous kind of guy,after every rack i had to dive outside for my nicotine "fix".Pretty soon you will have had enough.The result will be this;not only will smokers be told where they can smoke but also when they can smoke.If i was playing somebody like yourself,who is visibly affected by my smoking,off course i wouldnt mind going out to the parking lot[where i might get mugged or shot]for my smoke.The majority of smokers are not out to provoke,they are just normal people who happen to have a habit and who are being singled out and persecuted. If you want to ban smoking on health grounds,i can go along with that.If you want to ban smoking because of the the potential risk of lawsuit,i can understand that.BUT,if you want to ban smoking just because it smells,a state of the art airco/ventilation system would solve the problem.I lived in London for 5 years,and believe me,car polution is a major problem.At the end of the day,when you take a shower,you can feel the dirt in your hair.No comment on my other points?

Qtec
05-24-2003, 09:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UWPoolGod:</font><hr> Strange...I never noticed how much car exhaust affects me INDOORS. Since I have never frequented indoor motorcross/bumper cars/monstertruck shows in have no frame of reference. That may be where you hang out and exhaust may make you upset. I see what your getting at...I will be considerate and shut my car off the next time I park it in between the 12x6 and billiard table. Sorry. <hr /></blockquote>Where do you think the air inside comes from???? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif Just because you cant see something doesnt mean it isnt there.

05-24-2003, 10:01 PM
Qtec, I'm not speaking for the others here, but the smell aspect is not the major issue. Granted, the smell sucks, and I hate having it permeate my clothes, skin, and hair when I'm around smokers. But if the smell and scratch, watery eyes were the worst that could happen, I could live with it easily enough.

I think most people arguing against smoking ARE arguing on health grounds. At least I am. I'm a firm believer that secondhand smoke is detrimental to one's health over time -- and enough studies back me up on that. And I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that it's fatal to the smoker, having lost loved ones to it (my mother died of smoking-induced lung cancer 25 years AFTER she quit), so believe me when I say I have your best interests at heart too. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r
05-24-2003, 11:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It really depends on how close to "state of the art" Popcorn wants to get. I got the impression, he did not require a cutting edge computer. If I am wrong, I am sorry.
I am just trying to throw out another possibility. <hr /></blockquote> Without going on with your example, just look to CA and see what is happening. You have to go outside to smoke and I am sure everyone is getting used to it.

I don't think you have read my other posts on this, I do not say anything about the smoke at the ph because I have accepted the fact that if I want to play pool there, I have to put up with it. No more or less. Also, the argument of smell is not the sole point, health is the main issue, and the smell is a horrible by-product of a disgusting habit.

What other points did I ignore? I said the car issue was weak. If we were to remove the cars, then we would travelling around by horse and carriage. On the other hand, if we remove cigs our way of life does not take a step back into time. Requirements are placed on vehicle emissions, some states even incorporate vehicle emissions testing each year. Tell me what you are doing to help out with reducint the cig smoke?

eg8r

Qtec
05-24-2003, 11:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> Qtec, I'm not speaking for the others here, but the smell aspect is not the major issue. Granted, the smell sucks, and I hate having it permeate my clothes, skin, and hair when I'm around smokers. But if the smell and scratch, watery eyes were the worst that could happen, I could live with it easily enough.

I think most people arguing against smoking ARE arguing on health grounds. At least I am. I'm a firm believer that secondhand smoke is detrimental to one's health over time -- and enough studies back me up on that. And I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that it's fatal to the smoker, having lost loved ones to it (my mother died of smoking-induced lung cancer 25 years AFTER she quit), so believe me when I say I have your best interests at heart too. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>Thanks Dave,i appreciate your concern.My mother died when i was 7 and my father died 15 years ago.Both were smokers and both died of smoking related diseases.You think i would know better.All I,m trying to do is offer another point of view.Its the principals I,m taiking about.Hypocracy and double standards.The, "its only a problem if it affects me"attitude.Air polution is air polution,whether it be from cigs,cars or industry.Isnt it strange that in a country with more guns than people that there is all hysteria about second hand smoke?Why do people become hostile if you talk about their cars?Just because i make a point doesnt neccessarily mean i agree with it.So please dont take anything i say personally,i just like a good debate.More to come.........Qtec

Qtec
05-25-2003, 12:00 AM
My friend,if it is only a health issue,ban it.You know it will never happen.Why not?Its the same answer every time,money.Knowing that cigs are so dangerous to your health,why are American cig companies allowed to produce and export,billions of cigs every year to 3rd world countries.Isnt it a given fact that a certain % of these smokers will die of smoking related diseases?The fact is the cig companies are the "dealers",the smokers are the "junkies"and the goverment is the"cop on the take" being paid to look the other way.I,m probably going to take some stick for this. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

UWPoolGod
05-25-2003, 01:34 AM
My God your an idiot.

UWPoolGod
05-25-2003, 01:42 AM
Where do you think the air inside comes from???? Just because you cant see something doesnt mean it isnt there. &lt;--Q

The above message was based on this post. You originally compared smoking to having an exhaust filled room. That was just idiotic.

eg8r
05-25-2003, 01:51 AM
[ QUOTE ]
My friend,if it is only a health issue,ban it.You know it will never happen.Why not?Its the same answer every time,money.Knowing that cigs are so dangerous to your health,why are American cig companies allowed to produce and export,billions of cigs every year to 3rd world countries. <hr /></blockquote> I am sorry, I did forget to reply about this statement before. I was hoping you would let it rest. If your thinking was the way of the land, please tell me why the government has not lifted the "ban" on illegal drugs. The "markup" on cocaine is like 1000%. Surely if the government would look into it. Even if it was not illegal and its price started coming down, it would still be a viable product in which to tax.

eg8r

Qtec
05-25-2003, 03:33 AM
"Why not lift the ban on illegal drugs"?You dont want to know.Dont get me started on this one .You wont like what i have to say.

Qtec
05-25-2003, 04:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UWPoolGod:</font><hr> Where do you think the air inside comes from???? Just because you cant see something doesnt mean it isnt there. &lt;--Q

The above message was based on this post. You originally compared smoking to having an exhaust filled room. That was just idiotic. <hr /></blockquote>The bi-products from cars and cigs are both highly toxic.Where there are cars ,there is no clean air.You can object to me smoking in the same building as you,but i cant say anything about your car exhaust?Instead of calling me an idiot,convince me that I,m wrong by using intelligent argument.A word of advice,the 9 ball is not going to drop just because you ask it to. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

bluewolf
05-25-2003, 05:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>

I haven't read the letter but in this day and age I don't think it would be asking too much to have folks go outside or have a designated smoking area.

When I was up there in 2000 there was a set of doors that opened to sort of a courtyard right outside the pro arena. That would be good place to send the smokers.

Wally~~smoker <hr /></blockquote>

I smoke too but am used to eating in smoke free places and going to other ssmoke free places, where smoking is done outside.

IMO, if a person cannot go an hour or two without smoking, they belong in a 12-step program.

Laura

thepoolnerd
05-25-2003, 09:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote txshooter:</font><hr> If are going to a place where you know there will be second hand smoke or a lack of any non-smoking sections, then avoid the place. Itís a really simple solution. I am sick of non-smokers thinking smokers should bend to their will. When you start buying my smokes then you can tell me where and when I can light. The second-hand smoke isnít going to be a health hazard to you unless you are exposed to it for long periods of time. So avoid second hand smoke for long periods of time. You are not going to die from being in a pool hall for a couple hours with second hand smoke. <hr /></blockquote>

An older (non smoker) had to quit our pool league because his doctor said that due to his chronic asthma he absolutely should not spend time in smoke filled environments. He doesn't have a table at home and there are no non-smoking poolrooms around so he really doesn't get to play much anymore. It must suck getting old. I'd be interested to hear you justify it to him. According to your above post you are telling anit-smokers not to spend alot of time in poolhalls if they care for their health. Doesn't make alot of sense to me. I am not a huge opponent of smoking indoors; I tolerate it every time that I play out. If we played sometime and you want to light up I have no problem and you wouldn't hear complaint one. I just know that if I did smoke; my choice would be to muster the energy to walk outside a couple of times a night, like a trip to the urinal (It would be much more convenient for me to strap on some Depends before a long session.). Or I'd buy a smoke eater. If smoking outside isn't your choice that's fine, because many folks like me will tolerate it without a word. Don't spin this discussion to say that smokers are tolerating non-smokers; it is the exact opposite. It would be different if there were non-smoking rooms to choose from, but that is not the case.

Qtec
05-25-2003, 09:44 AM
Dear Laura,i,m a "live and let live"kinda guy.I,m all for comprimise.I have no problem with a smoking ban in all places where food is served,malls,public buildings,schools etc, but if a PH wishes to partition off a few tables for the benefit of people who want to smoke,whats wrong with that?I,m not pro smoking,I,m pro choice.Idont have a problem with authority,i just dont like people telling me what to do.Some people dont want to be saved.

05-25-2003, 11:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>...but if a PH wishes to partition off a few tables for the benefit of people who want to smoke,whats wrong with that?<hr /></blockquote>Nothing at all. In fact, that's a good compromise, provided that it's either closed off or at least good ventilation is provided. Unfortunately, the PH's I have frequented do not provide non-smoking/smoking areas. If the place is busy, it's usually blanketed by smoke no matter where you are.

If I were opening a new PH (and I've given it some thought) you might be surprised to know that I wouldn't try to ban smoking. I realize that as a business owner I don't need to alienate any segment if I want business to prosper, and face it: LOT'S of pool players smoke. But I most definitely would segregate smokers and non-smokers as much as possible. Give the non-smokers, families, and kids a clean place to play. If they want to venture into the smoke filled room to get some action or play with a smoking buddy, then it's their choice. But tolerating smoke shouldn't be a requirement for someone who loves the game but can't handle the smoke.

It just isn't fair to expect non-smokers to "stay away" when they have just as much "right" (using that term loosely, more like priviledge) to play the game they love as smokers have the "right" to smoke. For many, those activities are mutually exclusive, and that's a shame for our sport. I just hate to hear smokers say, "if you don't like it, stay at home." That argument comes off as completely arrogant when you consider that it could just as easily be turned around to say "why don't YOU stay home and smoke?" It's a stupid argument that doesn't accomplish anything but prove what an inconsiderate jerk someone is.

Ken
05-25-2003, 11:28 AM
All the smokeers who are standing around in their cloud of stench and filth don't have to tell me to stay at home. I went to the Joss finals yesterday. The smoke was about a medium on the Joss scale. The main problem was standing behind others trying to get a glimpse of the action. It seems a smoker would always sneak up behind me and hold his cig just where the smoke would drift directly into my face. He made sure it didn't go into his face, however. I would have to move.

After a few hours I had to go out periodically for "fresh air breaks". It's funny that few of the players were smoking but the fans insisted in making it extremely unpleasant for everyone.

Mike X. has a great operation going. The matches in the closed nightclub area were great. There were bleacher seats, it was cool and no smoke. Busta pasted Archer 9-1. He is awesome with 2 or 3 balls on the break and the only thing to stop him is a scratch on the cue ball. Strickland losing to Clowery was fascinating (Earl was peeved).

Nevertheless, I am not going back for the second day. I've had enough standing around in that gas chamber. Maybe I'll get something accomplished at home. Thank you, all you smokers.
KenCT

eg8r
05-25-2003, 11:57 AM
LOL, probably more of the same you have already said.

The point I guess you missed. You are placing a lot of weight on the US government's desire to keep the money making business of cigs available. If you were to be correct, then why not open the real flood gates. They have not done it and that is why your money issues does not make as much sense as you would like.

eg8r

eg8r
05-25-2003, 11:59 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Idont have a problem with authority,i just dont like people telling me what to do. <hr /></blockquote> I love this quote. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I have said it a million times.

eg8r

Qtec
05-25-2003, 01:25 PM
Thats a bit below the belt,hitting me with the old sick man story.Do you think I dont have a heart?I,m really a nice guy once you get to know me.

Qtec
05-25-2003, 01:37 PM
Dave,you might be surprised to hear this,but i agree.This whole problem could be resolved by people using a bit of common sense and showing a bit more respect for your fellow man.But as soon as money enters the equation!!!!!!!!!!

Qtec
05-25-2003, 01:58 PM
Two cricketers are walking onto the pitch at the begining of the game.D.Holding and F.Willie.So the commentator says"Good moring to all of our listeners,the bowler,s holding the batsman,s willie" " A man who is proud of his own intelligence,is like a prisoner being proud of his cell"

cuechick
05-25-2003, 04:56 PM
Comparing smoking to other self inflicted bad habits just does not jell. If you compared smoking to someone taking their cheese burger and forcing it down your throat and smearing it all over your cloths, then you might have a point.
What smokers don't want to admit is that their choice of self abuse, also abuses others.
All anyone in Vegas had to do is take a look down the hall of smoke outside the tournament area, it was just one long ash tray.
I could not even get a look at the pro charts with out someones cigerette wafting into my face. What I always find interesting is how smokers will hold their lite cigs away from themselves, 'Oh does the smoke bother you, smoking person?'
"HELLOOOOO!!! THAT"S WHAT I"M TAKING ABOUT!!!"
Most of all I am sick of smokers talking about their personal freedoms being infringed apon, when that 'freedom' does nothing but infrindge on others.
The biggest irony is that you even beleive you have a choice, this is an ADDICTION, if you smoke, you are an addict.

Qtec
05-25-2003, 09:40 PM
If smoking is allowed,i dont see how you can blame the smoker for lighting up.If you want to complain,you should complain to the right person.ie,the managment.

Qtec
05-25-2003, 09:44 PM
Just because i,m a sociopath,dosnt mean to say i,m a bad person!

eg8r
05-25-2003, 10:20 PM
I agree. Since it is allowed, what are we to do. I am just biding my time till they are smoke free.

eg8r

HalSmith
05-26-2003, 04:54 AM
Now this is from a very intelligent person. ---Smitty

Ken
05-26-2003, 08:18 AM
You sound like a person who is unhappy that you can not smoke in elevators and airplanes. If you think it is just fine to walk up to a person and send your smoke directly into that persons face then you are one of those who are responsible for all the anti-smoking laws.

Management has no choice but to cater to the smokers because they are in the business of making people want to return. Your inconsiderate pursuit of your filthy habit is coming back to haunt you. I have tried to be tolerant of smokers but when I find they have no concern for me I reply in kind.

You have so many solutions. Smoke-eaters are a joke. You have probably bought into the myth that they can eliminate smoke. Nothing could be further from the truth. Contact management? They are trying to make a living and they have to let you do your inconsiderate thing as long as it is legal and that's not for long.

I know; it's management's fault: not enough smoke-eaters, they permit it so you can do it everywhere without concern for anyone else. You make me sick in more ways than one.
KenCT

05-26-2003, 02:24 PM
I have seen all kinds of crap in these posts. Non-smokers are basically accusing smokers of being inconsiderate, invading personal space, taking your rights away, blowing smoke you peopleís faces, and wanting to smoke in elevators and airplanes. Only two smokers commented on this and neither one of us has stated any of this. Both of are willing to compromise. But from past experience, the majority of non-smokers are unwilling to compromise. You people need to realize that smokers have been around pool halls since they opened. We were here before you. So think of whose rights you are taking away if you want smoking banned? It isnít yours, itís ours. You are forcing smokers and businesses owner to abide by what you want. Rather than avoiding a situation that you find offensive and not entering a place where smoke is knowing smokers are there, you want to change everything and have other people to bend to your will regardless. One would think every non-smoker on this rant is an only child who never learned to let others play with his/her toys. There is no way in hell anyone can say this is a fair solution. And any of you non-smokers that drink in public and drive are a bunch of hypocrites, because after doing that, you are far more dangerous to smokers and non-smokers alike behind the wheel of 2k pounds of steel.

UWPoolGod
05-26-2003, 03:33 PM
And any of you non-smokers that drink in public and drive are a bunch of hypocrites, because after doing that, you are far more dangerous to smokers and non-smokers alike behind the wheel of 2k pounds of steel. &lt;--tx

The difference is any one of us, smokers or non-smokers, has the choice of drinking a bottle or a pint of beer....non-smokers do not have the choice to not breath in your smoke in the same establishment.

05-26-2003, 03:42 PM
Your reasoning is flawed, you do have the choice not to go around smokers, you know they are there, donít step foot in the door. People on the road have no clue whether you have been drinking or not. Try again.

eg8r
05-26-2003, 05:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote txshooter:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote txshooter:</font><hr>You people need to realize that smokers have been around pool halls since they opened. We were here before you. So think of whose rights you are taking away if you want smoking banned? It isnít yours, itís ours. <hr /></blockquote> One would think every non-smoker on this rant is an only child who never learned to let others play with his/her toys. <hr /></blockquote> Sounds childish to me, and then you blame non-smokers for child games.

Who says smokers were first in the pool hall anyways. Did the royalty smoke near their lawns when they first started the game? I don't know. Did they start smoking near their tables when the game moved inside? Once again I don't know. I just think it is childish to say "We were here first, if you don't like it, then go somewhere else."

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote txshooter:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote txshooter:</font><hr>Non-smokers are basically accusing smokers of being inconsiderate, invading personal space, taking your rights away, <hr /></blockquote> Your reasoning is flawed, you do have the choice not to go around smokers, you know they are there, donít step foot in the door. <hr /></blockquote> So here we have you blaming non-smokers for removing a "right", yet you then limit ones rights yourself.

This debate/argument will never end here on the board. The fact of the matter is, slowly but surely, more and more areas are enforcing a no smoking ban. It might not ever happen everywhere, but it definitely is going to continue in the near future.

eg8r

thepoolnerd
05-26-2003, 06:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote txshooter:</font><hr> And any of you non-smokers that drink in public and drive are a bunch of hypocrites, because after doing that, you are far more dangerous to smokers and non-smokers alike behind the wheel of 2k pounds of steel. <hr /></blockquote>

Unfortunately, smokers drink and drive also.
I am not a huge opponent of smoking in poolrooms, we play and you smoke that's fine; no complaints. The only reason I (and others, likely)posted is a smoker posted earlier about him getting fed up with non-smokers, many of whom tolerate it quietly like myself. My wife won't let me sleep in the same bed after playing pool because of the smell of smoke in my clothes and hair and on top of that I've apparently inconvenienced smokers. I don't understand how you can say that non-smokers are unwilling to compromise. I've dealt with it quietly for years. I would prefer a ban on smoking in public places. Better yet, if half of them would step outside for a smoke, there would be no need for a ban.

John G
05-26-2003, 06:42 PM
I've followed this post from the beginning. Many times I've wanted to give my view, as an exsmoker, so here goes, I quit smoking in 1974,I smoked 1 1/12 to 2 packs a day. Having the need to frequent places where smoking was one of the prevailing activities, due to occupational necessity, I had to make a decision. My decision was to continue my lifestyle but personally abstain from smoking.

Like many, I didn't believe that being in close proximity with second hand smoke was harmful. I believe it now. There are very valid arguenents for quitting smoking and avoiding second hand smoke. None of which I'll argue now. In an environment where smoking is present smokers could be and should be a lot more considerate and respectful of those around them. Could be and should be It's the responcible thing to do.

This is where I begin to have a serious problem. In the hysteria to avoid smoke, non smokers are far to willing to violate someones elses liberty's with the justification that they have a right to breath healthy air. And we do, but at what cost. Of course health is a major issue but so is freedom. And in the end it still should be my decision to be around it or not.

It's really no differant then driving on a freeway with reckless drivers. Oh I know , none of us are reckless, we all drive perfectly safe and legal. The fact is I know that a freeway is a dangereous place because of selfish and discourtous drivers. But still I use it often. Again, my decision.

The reality is as a society were willing to give up anything as long as it's not us doing without. The simple truth is the smoker has a right to harm themselves with a disgusting habit, wether I like it or not. Just as I have a right to avoid or frequent places where they are present. Again my decision.

We need, as a society, to be more respectful of each other. What we don't need is the government legislating respect into our lives. There is an old story that goes something like this. When the Germans came for the Jews, I wasn't worried because I was a Catholic. And when the Germans came for the Pole's, I wasn't worried. I was a Catholic. But then they came for me. For those that are willing to give up someone elses choices what are you going to say when they come for us.

Respect, a simple little word that can be so powerful. I'm asmatic so now like many I'm forced to avoid smoke most of the time. But still, in the end, it still needs to be my decision

John G

Qtec
05-27-2003, 09:47 PM
txshooter,give it up man,you might as well bang your head against the wall.It seems to me that these guys are fanatical anti-smokers.To be objective you have to be able to put yourself in the other guy,s shoes,i dont think this has happened or will happen,to them this is a health issue." "you can lead a horse to water,but you cant make it drink"

05-27-2003, 11:00 PM
I knew I wasn't going to change anyone's mind. They have their opinion on this issue. I respect it, I just don't agree with it. I was wrong in lumping all smokers together as being unwilling to compromise. Some do some don't. If the place I play at bans smoking I'll go somewhere else or if it becomes law, I'll just buy a table and play at home. But it's time for this thread to die.

PQQLK9
06-02-2003, 06:35 PM
Maybe he thinks a Volkswagen is more toxic than a CLK500.

bluewolf
06-03-2003, 06:22 AM
John,

I think that my views are like yours in certain respects.

I used to be a non-smoker and hope to be one again soon. I remember what it felt like, how my throat felt like it was closing up around smoke and my eyes burned. And of course, the smell was offensive when around smokers.It is kind of like being around bad body odor, in the way it smells to many non-smokers.

So, I do try to be considerate. We have smoking and non-smoking parts in our poolhalls. When our league is on the smoking side, I try to not sit next to someone who is bothered by smoke. I have been in restaurants where smoking was allowed. If the tables were close together, I usually asked the person at the next table if smoking bothered them. If they said yes, I did not smoke or I stepped outside.

I think that lots of smokers have no idea the effect this has on non-smokers. And now that the non-smokers are so vocal and many in an obnoxious way, it makes difficult to have a meeting of minds. If people could sit down and discuss their feelings in a respectful, sane way and 'drink tea'with one another, maybe there would be more understanding, more compassion.

I do not like smoking bans enforced by the government due to some political beliefs of mine. I am okay when an establishment decides to not allow smoking. Some places we go to have a smoking section. Some do not.We do not let that keep us from going to a place we want to go.

Laura