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View Full Version : Outside English and shooting



bluewolf
05-27-2003, 07:59 AM
FL told me I was using ie and I did not know that since I do not think while I am shooting, just shoot.I was also using centerball a lot and just ocasionally oe.

He has been trying to get me to use OE instead to get better position.

I shot 5 racks with oe unless it would miss that way and go in with centerball.It made the long hard cuts go in. The long straightins were already going in and long easy cuts most of the time.

Since so many more balls went in, it seemed almost like cheating, like being a cheating way to get balls in when a person is a bad shot.

Not sure what to think. What do you guys do?

Laura

Yuppie
05-27-2003, 08:03 AM
Puting any sort of english does not really affect the OB (this could be a whole new debate all itself) unless it hits a rail. English is mostly used for positioning the CB after contacting a ball or rail.

It sounds like your aim might be a little off and the lack of compensation when using english is helping your aim. I would say you may have a little to work on as far as aim.

Always shoot a ball with no english unless you have to. Positioning or otherwise.

05-27-2003, 10:56 AM
OE is certainly not cheating -- it's just another technique in the pool player's bag of tricks to use to alter the result of a shot. Knowing when and how to use these tricks are what separates good players from ball bangers.

OE is often prescribed to overcome the effects of contact-induced throw on soft cut shots (CIT is another debatable topic). Hard shots don't throw as much or at all. Maybe you've been experiencing some extreme throw due to dirty balls or worn cloth, and the OE is compensating.

You also must aim a bit differently with english, particularly with long, soft shots and/or low english shots because the spin causes the cue ball to curve off of the aiming line before contacting the OB.

Then there is the whole phenomenon of squirt (yet another debatable topic) which affects aim and requires compensation as well, depending on how much your cue causes squirt -- whether by shaft deflection, tip-end-mass, or the phase of the moon. Fred? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

All of these things can conspire to make a shot with english more tricky to aim properly, hence the recommendation for beginners to use centerball and speed whenever possible, rather than english, to play position. As mentioned, maybe your aim is a bit off and the english is actually correcting it, although that seems uncommon -- most folks can aim centerball shots far easier than english shots.

Fred Agnir
05-27-2003, 11:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Since so many more balls went in, it seemed almost like cheating, like being a cheating way to get balls in when a person is a bad shot.

Not sure what to think<hr /></blockquote>I think that beginners will naturally pick up OE because they find they make balls while aiming at the natural aim line.

That's about it. Inside english is always tougher for a beginner because for the most part, apart from squirt-reduced cues, the aimpoint (for those who aim) for inside-english is not at the natural aim point.

Fred

Rod
05-27-2003, 11:24 AM
So your running racks? There is a reason for use of english.

Rod
05-27-2003, 11:28 AM
#3, phase of the moon.

~~~ rod, who plays with an avg weight tip

Popcorn
05-27-2003, 11:40 AM
Stop thinking so much. You do what is required to accomplish what you are trying to do, and as little as possible. except for drawing, I rarely hit the cueball much more then a tip from center. I do a lot with the speed of my stroke. How could you play a whole rack with outside English only? I honest to God, don't understand what you are talking about. There is no magic formula you are going to discover that will be a cure all. Just play the game in the simplest form. To play good pool, it only requires you to do simple things consistently. Don't over complicate it.

bluewolf
05-27-2003, 12:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Stop thinking so much. You do what is required to accomplish what you are trying to do, and as little as possible. except for drawing, I rarely hit the cueball much more then a tip from center. I do a lot with the speed of my stroke. How could you play a whole rack with outside English only? I honest to God, don't understand what you are talking about. There is no magic formula you are going to discover that will be a cure all. Just play the game in the simplest form. To play good pool, it only requires you to do simple things consistently. Don't over complicate it. <hr /></blockquote>

I was playing without thinking about any english. i was just getting down and shooting.Fast Larry claimed that when he was at my house, I was using IE and said this was bad to use OE. I really wasnt thinking about the english, I was just shooting the shot in whatever way the ball goes in. IE different rail shots in different ways depending on the shot.

I was playing by feel totally before Larry said I was using IE. Then when i hit the rack, I was trying to use all oe because he said since I am dyslexic I was getting them mixed up. The long hard cuts went in. I missed a few that should have been centerball.

Even though I did not run a rack 75% of the balls were dropping, more than usual when I used the oe on the whole rack.


I really had gotten to the point that I figured it would take me a long time to get decent at pool so have been relaxed and not thinking too much about it.

I was just surprised when all of those balls went in. I wasnt even standing right, on one foot, body torked, all kinds of weird stuff. It was just a drill. I might as well have been standing on my head.

But since it happened, I wondered about the oe thing. Now I have fullfilled Larry's request and can go back to not thinking and just shoot by feel.

Laura

Qtec
05-27-2003, 02:08 PM
Laura,if we were in your local PH and i said to you that i could walk outside,pick the first person i see,maybe somebody who has never picked up a cue in their life],and after a simple demo[3 shots],this person will tell ME where i have to hit the Qball to make it follow a chosen path.[shape].The only thing that is required is to think logically.Once i get the hang of the PT prog.,i wil post it.By the way,do you have difficulty potting balls with out english.It sounds to me like you are compensating,its notgood.Anyway,what do you think of my proposal.Do you think i,ve lost it?

05-27-2003, 02:26 PM
Not sure how you could not realize what sort of english you're putting on the ball, unless you're always trying to hit centerball and the cue is drifting off target. I find that easy enough to do, for sure.

Anyway, as testy as ie can get, I agree that oe can be easy to pick up and fairly useful, even for those of us who aren't running racks around the competition. Obviously, it's a necessity for certain position routes, but if you have any tendency to undercut shots, or if you want to take a slightly bigger bite out of the ob to slow down the cb, a little oe can go a long way, and the throw can be considerable on moderate to soft shots. This is something I've been working on a bit, using oe as a kill shot off the side rail.

bluewolf
05-27-2003, 04:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Laura,if we were in your local PH and i said to you that i could walk outside,pick the first person i see,maybe somebody who has never picked up a cue in their life],and after a simple demo[3 shots],this person will tell ME where i have to hit the Qball to make it follow a chosen path.[shape].The only thing that is required is to think logically.Once i get the hang of the PT prog.,i wil post it.By the way,do you have difficulty potting balls with out english.It sounds to me like you are compensating,its notgood.Anyway,what do you think of my proposal.Do you think i,ve lost it? <hr /></blockquote>

No you have not lost it. And no I do not have any difficulty potting balls with centerball, except for the ones above my ability. The one the oe helped with the most was a long cut that my apa7 husband says is a hard shot. There are of course some that I rarely make like 90degree cuts but dont worry about them. Also learning banks but not real worried about that, they will come in time.

I was just doing a drill. Just surprised at the results, that is all.

Laura

bluewolf
05-27-2003, 04:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote afternooncaddy:</font><hr> Not sure how you could not realize what sort of english you're putting on the ball, unless you're always trying to hit centerball and the cue is drifting off target. I find that easy enough to do, for sure.

<hr /></blockquote>

Sometimes I thought i was doing outside and someone watching would say no that is inside. I am dyslexic and was constantly getting them mixed up. That is why Larry wanted me to do the drill doing all outside thinking it would fix the problem.

I guess there was this disagreement with him. I did not think it was important to know the difference. I thought that if I just keep shooting, I would eventually know where to hit on the cb to get it to go where I want it to go. All those words were mixed up in my head, just like i mix up right and left. WW will tell me to put left and I put right. He will tell me to put oe and i am just as likely to put ie and think that it is oe.

So of course, my solution, whether you think that it is a copout or not, was to forget the words and just shoot.

Larry was trying to help though.

I had just gotten to the point where none of it mattered anymore, how long it took me to get good or if I ever did.I just got so I wanted to shoot for fun. So with this lackadaisical attitude, it did surprise me when the balls were going in.

Laura

bluewolf
05-27-2003, 04:30 PM
Even though the experiment showed me that i could get in more balls than i thought I could, i still do not like thinking while playing pool.

Look at the angle line, look where the cb is supposed to go, no more thinking than those pictures, get down and shoot.

Why do all that thinking on a game that is supposed to be fun and relaxation? Even if I never get any better, at least I am relaxed now when i play and it is fun not drudgery.


Laura

05-27-2003, 04:48 PM
Sounds like an overload of information, as some other posters have said. Apologize if I've added to it.

Don't think anyone should make the game any more complicated than they want to. In other words, I wouldn't go beyond your comfort level until you just feel dissatisfied with, say, where you can put the cb. Then you might read, listen to as much advice as you can stand, experiment with english and observe the results, whatever.

Rod
05-27-2003, 05:46 PM
Be careful of what some say is inside or outside. I've found even some good players have it backwards or do not understand the concept. That being the case it is a term that should be used as left or right. I'd say it is much easier to comprehend your right or left rather than IE or OE. If your standing at the table with a little thought I'm sure you know your left from your right. When your down is not a good time to hear any term. The problem is IE or OE can be left or right. It changes once the o/b is left or right of being straight in. Straight in in a sense has no OE or IE as a stop shot, it only has left or right. In order to have IE or OE you would need to send the c/b to a particular rail with left or right. As an example if you follow this shot, Laura and only Laura which english is inside. It's a bit of a trick question but I did explain. Actually if someone else is in question go ahead and take a shot.

START(
%Af4I6%PX4P0%Ur4D1%VQ0S4

)END

Recently I had a good player tell me this was low inside.
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%AD6Q4%PE4U8%UC9E9%VD7O8%eA4b2

)END

Ralph S.
05-27-2003, 06:11 PM
Hey Rod, wouldnt being left or right handed change the veiw of what some consider as IE and OE? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod
05-27-2003, 06:15 PM
Nope, only if their confused.

Ralph S.
05-27-2003, 06:22 PM
Awww c'mon Rod. I just tryin to mess with ya a little. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif I may have to take a break from BW's posts for a while though, as I am fast becoming one of the confused. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec
05-27-2003, 07:23 PM
Rod,i had to read this 10 times before i understood the question!Talk about complicated.In snooker ,we do it like this,Imagine the Qball as a clock.Draw a line between 12 0colck and 6 oclock,this we call the middle.Striking above the center is"top"and below the center is"bottom"Striking to the left of middle,is called,left hand side,and on the right,right hand side.If i said,hit it with top left hand side,you would hit the white in the region of 10 oclock/11 oclock.Your example would be bottom left hand side.Now we get to the tricky bit.I assume that this inside/outside that you are talking about,refers to the ajustment that has to be made,to compensate for the throw,caused by the use of side.If you are asking do i need to aim more to the left or to the right,then its to the left.In snooker we only use side to play position[shape],we dont use it to pot balls,you cant rely on it.Playing your example,i could miss this shot just by hitting the ball too hard or too slow.How hard you hit it affects how much the ball is thrown off line.If i play the the shot by striking the Qball in the middle,i will always pot it no matter how hard or soft i hit it,only my Qball position will be affected.

Rod
05-27-2003, 08:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Rod,i had to read this 10 times before i understood the question!Talk about complicated.In snooker ,we do it like this,Imagine the Qball as a clock.Draw a line between 12 0colck and 6 oclock,this we call the middle.Striking above the center is"top"and below the center is"bottom"Striking to the left of middle,is called,left hand side,and on the right,right hand side.If i said,hit it with top left hand side,you would hit the white in the region of 10 oclock/11 oclock. <hr /></blockquote>

Yes that is the same, no difference there.


[ QUOTE ]
Your example would be bottom left hand side. Now we get to the tricky bit.I assume that this inside/outside that you are talking about,refers to the ajustment that has to be made,to compensate for the throw,caused by the use of side. <hr /></blockquote>

No, inside or outside has nothing to do with an adjustment.
Sure there is a slight adjustment for squirt, aim or throw as you mentioned. Like you english is only needed to control the direction of the c/b after contact. Whether we use right or left determines inside or outside. In my first post, bottom diagram that is low outside english, or low left. The way to view this is look at the natural angle the c/b would roll without english. That would be the green line. Outside (left is the red line, with yellow (right) being the inside line. So we get the term outside or inside english.
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%AD6Q4%PJ0V0%UC9E9%VD7O8%We1[0%XD8R7%Yd7R0%ZD7R5%_f3G8%`V0L6
%aD8R2
)END

BTW IE or OE can be refered to as hold english after rail contact. In the diagram left would be hold, although it's not a good example.
So you see we are talking about the same stuff. It's just pool players at some point come up with a different terminology. The simple way is just the reference to which english, not OE or IE.

The first diagram in my other post is a bit tricky if one does not know the difference. Top left english can be OE or IE depending on which rail the c/b hits on the follow shot. Once it hits a rail it is either running english or a hold english. It's the same stuff, just different terms.

Rod

Alfie
05-27-2003, 11:58 PM
I think that beginners will naturally pick up OE because they find they make balls while aiming at the natural aim line.

<font color="blue">What is the "natural aim line?" Is it different from the natural aim point? How does one aim at an aim line? Je suis confus.</font color>

That's about it. Inside english is always tougher for a beginner because for the most part, apart from squirt-reduced cues, the aimpoint (for those who aim) for inside-english is not at the natural aim point.

<font color="blue">What is the "natural aim point?"</font color>

Qtec
05-28-2003, 03:17 AM
START(
%Al3J3%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg9V9%Q]3S3%RU6K0%Sb6T9%Tr0C6
%W_5S4%Xh0C3%Yh6D3%Zk5J6%[X6K1%\h1C2%]d1T0%^h0C4
)ENDIf A is the natural angle,B would be outside[running] and C would be inside[hold or check side].The running is left hand side and the other is right.Talking about inside and outside can be confusing,its what i call excess information.Its really going with the natural line or against it.

bluewolf
05-28-2003, 03:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Be careful of what some say is inside or outside. I've found even some good players have it backwards or do not understand the concept. That being the case it is a term that should be used as left or right. I'd say it is much easier to comprehend your right or left rather than IE or OE.

<hr /></blockquote>

The first one, I had to ask Ray what it was. I also get left and right mixed about 50% of the time. The second one, I say hit the cueball offcenter on the side nearer the rail.

I dont know if this makes any sense. Since i get the words mixed, i just look at the shot and hit the cueball in the place where it looks like the ball will go in.

Thanks.

Laura

Fred Agnir
05-28-2003, 06:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> it is much easier to comprehend your right or left rather than IE or OE. <hr /></blockquote>Everytime I see "IE" and "OE," I automatically think "Internet Explorer" and "Outlook Express."

Hope this helps,

Fred

Fred Agnir
05-28-2003, 06:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> A is the natural angle,B would be outside[running] and C would be inside[hold or check side].<hr /></blockquote>I know this is just specific to your example, but I just wanted to point out that the term "outside" and "inside" shouldn't be equated to "running" or "check" as the latter terms are refering to the cueball/cushion interaction, while the former are refering to the cueball/object ball interaction (WRT the pocket).


Fred

Fred Agnir
05-28-2003, 06:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> I think that beginners will naturally pick up OE because they find they make balls while aiming at the natural aim line.

<font color="blue">What is the "natural aim line?" Is it different from the natural aim point? How does one aim at an aim line? Je suis confus.</font color>

That's about it. Inside english is always tougher for a beginner because for the most part, apart from squirt-reduced cues, the aimpoint (for those who aim) for inside-english is not at the natural aim point.

<font color="blue">What is the "natural aim point?"</font color> <hr /></blockquote>The "natural aim point" is the geometric ghost ball, with no consideration to any real-world collision mishaps. That is, it's the beginner's aim. The "natural aim line" is the theoretical path that the center of the cueball would travel such that it would replace the geometric ghost ball.

Fred

bluewolf
05-28-2003, 07:12 AM
I understood what natural aim line was, i think. The angle line based on a centerball hit.

Anyway, I was just shocked when all of the balls went in, because I was used to thinking of myself as a bad shooter. I figured I would just be a crappy pool player forever or at least for a long time. That is why I was so shocked, I guess.

Laura

Fred Agnir
05-28-2003, 07:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> That would be the green line. Outside (left is the red line, with yellow (right) being the inside line. So we get the term outside or inside english. <hr /></blockquote>I think this only holds true some of the time. Consider the following shot standard advanced shot where the first cushion contact is not connected to the pocket in question.
START(
%Ac0P1%BL8P7%CJ7O4%DL8N2%EM7P1%FK7P1%GK7N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK8M6
%KJ7P7%LJ7N2%MK7Q3%NJ7Q9%OJ7M0%PS3P5%Uq0E3%Vc8O2%W h7Z8%Xa9P9
%Ya3P8%ZT6P7%[o3W4%\i3[5%eA7a4
)END

Outside english in this case is in check (hold-up), while inside english would result in the wider rebound angle and would be running. Now move the balls forward a bit.

START(
%Aj2P0%BL8P7%CJ7O4%DL8N2%EM7P1%FK7P1%GK7N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK8M6
%KJ7P7%LJ7N2%MK7Q3%NJ7Q9%OJ7M0%PS3P5%Uq0E3%Vj7O2%W q7V0%Xi9Q1
%Yh4P8%ZT6P7%[e9Y0%\q8V5%eA7a4
)END

Inside english is now in check, while outside english would be running. Same basic shot, but the cushion contact is different.



When I talk to "beginners" about outside and inside, we talk direction of the cut. If you cut a ball to the right, then right-hand english is inside, and left-hand is outside. If you cut a ball to the left, then left-hand is inside and right-hand is outside. We can draw up all kinds of silly diagrams as to why the terms are appropriately called "inside" and "outside."

For those with dyslexia, if you cut a ball to one direction, whether it's left or right, then the *opposite* is outside. Opposite starts with "O." Just like outside. Do people with dyslexia have problems with opposite directions?

Does anyone find any exceptions to these descriptions?

When I discuss with "beginners" the terms "hold-up," or "running," then we discuss the direction the cueball approaches the cushion, the spin, and the resulting rebound (compared to a "natural" rebound).

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks this one get beat to death only once a year

Fred Agnir
05-28-2003, 07:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> I understood what natural aim line was, i think. The angle line based on a centerball hit.<hr /></blockquote>Correct.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I was just shocked when all of the balls went in, because I was used to thinking of myself as a bad shooter. I figured I would just be a crappy pool player forever or at least for a long time. That is why I was so shocked, I guess.

Laura <hr /></blockquote>As I said, beginners will welcome outside english because without any further knowledge, theories, or discussion, they will find that they will make balls using it. The reasons are simple enough of why you make shots with outside english easier than with inside english. But, at this point, you don't need to know or understand why.

But, as you progress, you'll find that the use of outside english to help "relieve the cut" as Hal Houle puts it can be a detriment to learning. For now, you might as well put the balls in hole. And if outside english accomplishes that, go for it. You wouldn't be alone. Maybe in a year, you'll adjust your centerball aim to a thinner hit and find that you won't need outside english to help the shot go in.

Fred &lt;~~~ used to use outside english on all cuts.

bluewolf
05-28-2003, 07:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
For those with dyslexia, if you cut a ball to one direction, whether it's left or right, then the *opposite* is outside. Opposite starts with "O." Just like outside. Do people with dyslexia have problems with opposite directions?

Does anyone find any exceptions to these descriptions?

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks this one get beat to death only once a year <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, opposite is a problem for me. This how I thought of to tell the difference, that occured to me this morning.Tell me if this is wrong.

Outside-hit on the cb on the part that is outside the angle line. inside-hitting the part of cb that is inside the angle line.

Laura

05-28-2003, 08:06 AM
Bluewolf, perhaps it will be easier to think of it in these terms, which is really the same thing Fred said but just worded a bit differently:

Think of IE being to the side of the cueball "nearest" or "towards" the pocket you're cutting to. Obviously this isn't relevant to straight-in shots, but then neither is IE or OE in that case (unless you're also drawing back to a rail, but forget that for now).

So if you're looking straight down the aim line from CB to OB on a cut shot, the pocket will lie to one side of the aim line or the other. Hitting the cueball on the same side of the aim line as the desired pocket would be inside english. Hitting on the other side would be outside english.

You said that due to your dyslexia you tend to learn things through memorization. If you could then memorize the fact that "inside = same side as the pocket", then shouldn't you be able to determine that outside means the other way? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Qtec
05-28-2003, 08:34 AM
The "natural aim point" is the geometric ghost ball, with no consideration to any real-world collision mishaps. That is, it's the beginner's aim. The "natural aim line" is the theoretical path that the center of the cueball would travel such that it would replace the geometric ghost ball.
I agree,Qtec

Scott Lee
05-28-2003, 08:46 AM
Ralph...No, it doesn't matter whether you're shooting right or left handed. Inside or outside english can still be right or left, depending on which side of the table you are on. That is why I always try to use the terms "right" and "left", when describing which english to use.

Scott

Qtec
05-28-2003, 09:10 AM
Fred,youre twisting my mellon,man.Iwas with you right up until you said this,
When I talk to "beginners" about outside and inside, we talk direction of the cut. If you cut a ball to the right, then right-hand english is inside, and left-hand is outside. If you cut a ball to the left, then left-hand is inside and right-hand is outside. We can draw up all kinds of silly diagrams as to why the terms are appropriately called "inside" and "outside."

For those with dyslexia, if you cut a ball to one direction, whether it's left or right, then the *opposite* is outside. Opposite starts with "O." Just like outside. Do people with dyslexia have problems with opposite directions?

Do you really think this simplifies things?Check the diagram,[the 5 marks the second position of the Qball],both balls are cut to the right.Are they both "inside"?I agree with Rod,as a general rule,you only apply english on the Qball in order to affect its path ,once it has hit a cushion,not to help you pot balls.START(
%A[5K2%E_9M4%P_7Q4%QH7H5%RL1L9%W[6L4%X_2P7%YD0H4%Z[0K5%[C7O0
%\[2L0%]\2L4%^_8M3
)END

Qtec
05-28-2003, 09:28 AM
Thank you David,now i know what Fred is on about.Check my other post,both balls areIE,both balls cut to the right,but one is running and the other is hold.Or not?

Fred Agnir
05-28-2003, 09:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>

Do you really think this simplifies things?<hr /></blockquote>Sure. Maybe. Probably. Or not.

[ QUOTE ]
Check the diagram,(the 5 marks the second position of the Qball),both balls are cut to the right.Are they both "inside"?

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%\[2L0%]\2L4%^_8M3
)END

<hr /></blockquote>??? Without english, neither are "inside." The terms "inside english" and "outside english" really have nothing to do with what happens to the cueball when it hits the cushion.

Did I miss something that switched the conversation to "inside cut"? These terms (inside, outside) really only reference the cueball, object ball, and intended pocket, for "easier" general descriptions of the shot.

E.g., some common phrases:

For the opening break in three cushion, most people will use the standard inside natural three railer.

A common 9-ball dilemma: when pocketing a ball in a corner, you can either double the corner with outside, or send it down table one rail with inside. Of course, if you're closer to straight in, you could double the same corner with high inside english, or send the cueball down table one rail with a touch of high outside english.


If you follow with inside, you might scratch cross corner. Better to use a little outside draw and get back to the center of the table. (Some people actually talk like this).





[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Rod,as a general rule,you only apply english on the Qball in order to affect its path ,once it has hit a cushion,not to help you pot balls.<hr /></blockquote>No disagreement here.

Fred

Fred Agnir
05-28-2003, 09:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Thank you David,now i know what Fred is on about.Check my other post,both balls areIE,both balls cut to the right,but one is running and the other is hold.Or not? <hr /></blockquote>You got it. With inside english (right-hand, in this case), line A looks like running. B looks like hold-up/check/reverse.

Fred

Rod
05-28-2003, 09:46 AM
Thanks Fred,
Yes it helps because that is what I think of also.

~~~ rod, it really helps

Rod
05-28-2003, 10:35 AM
Fred,
My shot as illustrated was a simplified explanation, how silly of me. However if you move both balls equal amounts up from the end rail the inside or outside still applies.
In both your diagrams it is still inside or outside. The term hold or running doesn't change that. That term is for the altered path off a particular rail as you diagramed.
Your explanation to beginners is good, I just took a different route with a picture or diagram.

~~ rod, not awake yet, going in for some oatmeal, emm yumm

Rod
05-28-2003, 10:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The first one, I had to ask Ray what it was. I also get left and right mixed about 50% of the time. The second one, I say hit the cueball offcenter on the side nearer the rail.
<hr /></blockquote>

The first one is a trick question. Either english is inside or outside depending on what english and which rail is contacted. The only answer is pick one english and point to the first rail of contact. LOL

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know if this makes any sense. Since i get the words mixed, i just look at the shot and hit the cueball in the place where it looks like the ball will go in. <hr /></blockquote>

Your right it doesn't. Don't worry about it, all in due time.

Ross
05-28-2003, 11:19 AM
When cutting an object ball:

Inside english - sidespin resulting from hitting the cue ball off-center on the side closest to the object ball

Outside english - sidespin resulting from hitting the cue ball off-center on the side farther away from the object ball

That is all there is to it. You either hit on the inside (side toward the ob), center, or outside (side away from the ob).

Is that really that complicated?

05-28-2003, 11:50 AM
Post deleted. Never mind, I'm a dork... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Scott Lee
05-28-2003, 02:56 PM
David...No you're not! Although Ross is correct, and that is an excellent example of the definition of 'inside' and 'outside' english, it is frequently more complex than that. For example, inside &amp; outside english are also referred to as 'ball-side' and 'rail-side' english, as well as 'running' and 'reverse' english...all of which can be right or left english, depending on the lay of the table! That's why I believe in the simplest way to describe it accurately enough, to reproduce spontaneously...and that is plain old 'right' or 'left' english! KISS rules!

Scott Lee

05-28-2003, 03:17 PM
Thanks, Scott. At least somebody thinks I'm not a dork. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

At first I didn't realize that Ross was referring to the side of the CB that contacts the OB during the cut -- I thought he was referring to where the pocket was in relation to the view perpendicular to the aiming line, in which case it would depend on which side you were viewing from. Immediately after posting it dawned on me. Duh. So to save face I deleted my post.

Move along folks, nothing to see here... /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

/me stuffs hands in pockets, looks around sheepishly, and whistles...

FWIW, I agree with you guys, and I myself have a pretty good grasp of IE and OE. I see it naturally I guess, I don't have to think about it really. I'm hoping that between Fred's, Ross's, and my simplified explanation that bluewolf might click with one of 'em and be able to overcome her problem.

But simply using "left" and "right" doesn't cover IE and OE because as you said, either can be the other (??? yeah yeah, it makes sense to me, so shaddap!). For example, if you wanted to teach someone to overcome throw by using english (I know, the more proper technique to overcome throw would be to adjust your aim for a thinner cut, but stick with me here -- this is an illustrative example), you couldn't say "always use left" or "always use right" because obviously it depends on direction of the cut. But if you could teach them to recognize IE vs. OE, then you could simply say "always use OE." Yeah, that's an oversimplified example, but I do think it's worthwhile to understand the concept of IE/OE in more than terms of left/right. I consider OE/IE vs right/left as being complementary but very different, much like right/left vs. North/South -- they can at times mean the same thing and at other times mean the opposite. See what I mean?

BTW, Scott, the next time you're travelling the I-75 corridor between Atlanta and Chattanooga, I'd love to buy some of your time for some reinforcement instruction! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ross
05-28-2003, 04:16 PM
Scott, if you are talking about a particular shot, then referring to right or left english works fine. But when discussing some general principles of pool, understanding the terms inside and outside english actually makes the discussion more straightforward.

For example, compare the statement:
"To make a sharp cut on a ball frozen to the rail, hit the rail first with a lot of inside english"

to its left/right equivalent:
"To make a sharp cut on a ball frozen to the rail, and you are cutting it to the left, hit the rail first with a lot of left english. And if cutting it to the right, use right english."

Another example of a statement that would be cumbersome to translate into right/left terms:

"Beginning players usually have more difficulty pocketing balls when using inside english than when using outside."

And at a more advanced level, many concepts in pool can best be understood in terms of "inside" and "outside" english. For example, some pool gurus have shown both through physics and through empirical tests, that inside english does not have much effect on ob throw, while outside english can have a considerable effect. Now that knowledge may be a bit esoteric, but some players like to know why they tend to overcut when they use inside english. (The reason is because both inside and outside english cause equal amounts of cb squirt, but for inside english shots there is little compensating ob throw.)

Many other discussions on this forum depend on understanding these terms as well. One that comes up repeatedly and leads to a lot of debate is related to BW's post - if you have to cinch a ball, does it help to use a bit of outside english?

I agree with the KISS principle, but I don't think it is asking too much for pool players to learn these concepts.

Scott Lee
05-28-2003, 04:16 PM
David...Headed there next month! Check your PM's.

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
05-28-2003, 04:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> Scott, if you are talking about a particular shot, then referring to right or left english works fine. But when discussing some general principles of pool, understanding the terms inside and outside english actually makes the discussion more straightforward.<hr /></blockquote>

Agreed...but only after the student has mastered vertical axis pool, and has learned what top and bottom spin with NO english do. Up to that that point, right and left, when referring to sidespin, imo, are more appropriate.


<hr /></blockquote>Many other discussions on this forum depend on understanding these terms as well. One that comes up repeatedly and leads to a lot of debate is related to BW's post - if you have to cinch a ball, does it help to use a bit of outside english?

I agree with the KISS principle, but I don't think it is asking too much for pool players to learn these concepts.

<hr /></blockquote>

...and the answer is NO. Trying to thin cut a ball with sidespin is LESS accurate than using centerball or draw.
This is a common misconception about cut shots. I just discussed this very thing with RandyG in Dallas last month, and he agreed with me.

Scott Lee

qSHAFT
05-28-2003, 08:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> Scott, if you are talking about a particular shot, then referring to right or left english works fine. But when discussing some general principles of pool, understanding the terms inside and outside english actually makes the discussion more straightforward.

For example, compare the statement:
"To make a sharp cut on a ball frozen to the rail, hit the rail first with a lot of inside english"

to its left/right equivalent:
"To make a sharp cut on a ball frozen to the rail, and you are cutting it to the left, hit the rail first with a lot of left english. And if cutting it to the right, use right english."
<hr /></blockquote>

Actually Ross I believe that the second statement is clearer and less ambiguous. Consider that because you are going cushion first the actual cut angle reverses meaning that in reality the shot is incorporating outside english rather than inside english. The second way you state the shot there is no such ambiguity.

Cheers - qSHAFT

05-28-2003, 09:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> David...Headed there next month! Check your PM's.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>PM's checked! Now check yours! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

SpiderMan
05-28-2003, 09:44 PM
Hey Ross,

I think what you were saying is that the terminology "inside" and "outside" english, when relating to cue-ball sidespin on cut shots, is more universal than calling it "left" or "right" english. If that's the case, I wholeheartedly agree.

I think the specific terms "left" and "right" are appropriate when discussing specific shots, but otherwise "inside" and "outside" make a lot more sense.

Regarding using outside to "cinch" a cut shot .... In this case you are trading one variable for another, removing object-ball throw due to cling but adding cue-ball squirt due to the off-center hit.

In most cases I'd say it's a good trade, for this reason: Cling-induced throw will vary from shot-to-shot with parameters such as cut angle, whether the contact points have a chalk scuff on them, etc. Cueball squirt will for the most part be only a function of tip offset from center. That means that you can eliminate a constantly-changing variable and substitute one that, while it must be allowed for, is predictable and small (for the small tip offsets needed to get enough OE to counteract OB throw).

Probably this is the reason that most players, even without any help or instruction, will gravitate toward a little bit of outside on most cut shots. By trial and error they see their pocketing percentages go up. It is more accurate to compensate for very-predictable CB squirt than less-predictable OB throw.

SpiderMan

bluewolf
05-28-2003, 09:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> Scott, if you are talking about a particular shot, then referring to right or left english works fine. But when discussing some general principles of pool, understanding the terms inside and outside english actually makes the discussion more straightforward.

For example, compare the statement:
"To make a sharp cut on a ball frozen to the rail, hit the rail first with a lot of inside english"

to its left/right equivalent:
"To make a sharp cut on a ball frozen to the rail, and you are cutting it to the left, hit the rail first with a lot of left english. And if cutting it to the right, use right english."

<hr /></blockquote>

This is funny. To me there are several variations of rail shots ie-ob frozen, cb at a cut, both frozen, ob not frozen but nest to rail, ob out from rail and inch or two. After a bit of struggle, I learned a few months back that these rail shots went in pretty easy. i just learned what hit made each one go in, depending on the shot. I know I used english on a couple of ocasions, center on most of them. Just did not know the words, just how to make the shot.

I am getting better actually, I only mixed them up once today. I liked ross definition the best.

Laura

Rod
05-28-2003, 09:58 PM
Ross, you silver tounge devil /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Qtec
05-28-2003, 10:04 PM
START(
%I_5J5%P`5P3%Qb4O3%R^8P6%W[4B6%Xb4O8%Y[4[8%Z]9C4%[_4J4%\^1C4
%]_8L2%^`3O7
)ENDIf you cant hit the ball in a straight line,you have got a problem.I think some people think they need to use english[offcenter striking]vertical axis striking to potballsIf you hit the OB on the right spot it will always drop.As for shape,consider this.START(
%A[3N5%BJ6S0%CJ0Q3%DK1J2%EN6X5%FK1T5%GL1H4%HM1F9%IO1C 3%JJ3L6
%KS5Z8%LI7O2%MP6Z0%NL7V6%OM9E2%P\4S9%QO2A9%RT7Z4%T[2C5%W[3B9
%X[3\3%YO5C7%Z[1O9%[T8Z8%\[2O9
)END I pot the 1 in pocket D,hitting as high as possible,and the Qball hits the rail at A.I then pot the1,hitting the Qball as low as i can ,he Qball hits the cushion at B.Would you agree that i can pot the 1 and hit all the balls between A and B,simply by hitting the Qball lower or higher?

Rod
05-28-2003, 10:23 PM
Sure you can, no side english is needed.

bluewolf
05-29-2003, 04:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> If you cant hit the ball in a straight line,you have got a problem.I think some people think they need to use english[offcenter striking]vertical axis striking to potballsIf you hit the OB on the right spot it will always drop.<hr /></blockquote>

You are right. After I had been playing pool for three months, WW was trying to teach me English. I got real frustrated and said 'get that english away from me, I am still trying to learn centerball'. Although there was a time when i was using inside to cheat the pocket, which ww said was kind of backwards, up until a few days ago, I have used centerball almost exclusively.When i was using ie to get right angle side shots in, I was told to use centerball to make my aim better. I am glad I followed that ccbers advise. I had developed a good eye and almost always hit where I was aiming. I was missing due to lack of experience in reading the angle line, but at least I have a decent eye.

Fred says beginners often find oe helpful, but beginner or beginner/intermediate, I think it can be a crutch and the person does not develop aiming skill. I do think that when I started using oe on certain cuts I was only 50% on, I was probably missing due to contact induced throw.

Laura

Ross
05-29-2003, 09:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> ...
I am getting better actually, I only mixed them up once today. I liked ross definition the best.

Laura <hr /></blockquote>

Ok, what do I win? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Ross
05-29-2003, 01:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Ross, you silver tounge devil /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Rod, how did you know?

http://www.duke.edu/~rulmer/splittongue2.jpg

Qtec
05-29-2003, 03:50 PM
For example, some pool gurus have shown both through physics and through empirical tests, that inside english does not have much effect on ob throw, while outside english can have a considerable effect. ""You cannot be serious""Qtec.This does not make sense.

05-29-2003, 04:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>For example, some pool gurus have shown both through physics and through empirical tests, that inside english does not have much effect on ob throw, while outside english can have a considerable effect. ""You cannot be serious""Qtec.This does not make sense. <hr /></blockquote>Hey Qtec, just a friendly suggestion: I've noticed on many of your posts that the words tend to run together, especially when you're quoting from another post. This post of yours was a prime example. I have a hard time myself making sense of posts like this, not because what you say doesn't make sense, but because I have to work to pick apart your words from someone else's. You guys can't expect me to actually *think* all the time, now can you? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If you wouldn't mind, could you hit Enter a few times in your post so that things don't run together as much?

Oh, and if you're going to quote another post, the easiest thing is to hit the "Quote" icon instead of "Reply", then trim out what you don't want to leave in the quote. Or to manually quote, you can just type in the quote tags in square brackets yourself (or click it in the Instant UBB Code menu below the composition window). See for yourself how I quoted your post above?

Not being critical, just wanting to be able to read your posts better. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Fred Agnir
05-30-2003, 07:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>For example, some pool gurus have shown both through physics and through empirical tests, that inside english does not have much effect on ob throw, while outside english can have a considerable effect. <hr /></blockquote>

""You cannot be serious""Qtec.This does not make sense. <hr /></blockquote>Well, Ross did go on to explain what he was talking about, so he made sense of it.

Fred

Qtec
05-30-2003, 09:14 AM
Fred ,you got me this time, he did.I read the question wrong,i thought he was talking about squirt.

phil in sofla
05-30-2003, 05:17 PM
Buddy Hall likes to shoot with OE, all other things being equal (that is, unless the position requires something else be put on the ball). He calls it 'helping English,' and would generally always use it on a cut on the 9 ball (when nothing particularly needs to be done with the leave).

Just before I got my 314, I was beginning to play with OE and throwing the ball in, and similar to your experience, I found balls very easy to pocket that way. It almost scared me and didn't seem right-- I figured that was the wrong way to make balls, and that it was more or less beginner's luck, that it couldn't be that easy, and I'd soon find that out. Because I wasn't only using OE, I was making an adjustment for cue ball deflection as well, and I KNEW I really didn't know how much to adjust, and figured I was just luckily getting it right then, but would fail down the road, probably at some criticial moment in a match.

OE (or IE, for that matter) reduces the 'cling' or cue ball induced deflection, which with dirty balls will cause the object ball to undercut from the line you aimed at. The problem is that it introduces both deflection of the cue ball off the cue, and throw of the OB off the geometrical line it is struck at. That is, it can help the line of the shot stay true (by reducing the first factor), but can hurt the line of the shot by the other two mechanisms.