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silverbullet
06-02-2003, 01:53 PM
Anybody know of unusual fundamentals in good players? IE-stroke, stance, bridge etc.

For ex, during the preshot, Effren aims at the bottom of the cueball and then shoots on a different place on the cueball.

sb

cheesemouse
06-02-2003, 02:13 PM
Allen Hopkins>>>has the shortest backswing in the world but it works for him...it's hard to watch... /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Keith Mcready>>>sometimes he hits shots before his bridge hand is on the table...little keith is smoooooth.

MarkUrsel
06-02-2003, 02:32 PM
Nick Varner's shooting arm shakes like a leaf as he's lining up. I have no idea how he manages it into a smooth, nice stroke.

Fred Agnir
06-02-2003, 02:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MarkUrsel:</font><hr> Nick Varner's shooting arm shakes like a leaf as he's lining up. I have no idea how he manages it into a smooth, nice stroke. <hr /></blockquote>Dick Lane gives Nick the 7 on shaking.

Fred

06-02-2003, 03:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr>For ex, during the preshot, Effren aims at the bottom of the cueball and then shoots on a different place on the cueball.<hr /></blockquote>Maybe it's common for Filipinos, or maybe just because Efren was his mentor, but Busta does the same thing. He basically touches the cloth in front of the cueball on his practice strokes, no matter what english he puts on the CB.

DoomCue
06-02-2003, 03:08 PM
I've been told the Filipino players do this because it aids in visualizing the shot, i.e., the cue doesn't get in the way. Any spin that is going to be used isn't applied until the final stroke (the tip stays at the bottom until the final stroke, which may rise for follow, or move left, or right, or a combination of these). That's directly opposed to what I was taught, which is to address the CB by pointing the cue at the area on the CB to cause intended spin. I guess that's why a lot of us traditional American players see their way as odd, but you can't argue with results. I've tried it, and it feels unnatural as hell to me, but whatever works, works. How they can consistently get center ball action is beyond me. Guess I'll be sticking to my method....

KerryM
06-02-2003, 03:15 PM
What about that highly unusual chicken wing type stroke of Bustamante? Maybe he started at a young age? I've watched him carefully and observed these odd things:

1) (already mentioned) cues up really low on the ball for every type of shot.
2) cues up with extreme LEFT english on every shot, even the break. His cue clearly see-saws sideways in his practice strokes, but he comes through the real stroke dead straight.
3) upper arm moves all over the place, so that on his practice strokes, his cue tip is tracing an ellipse.
4) His lower arm is cocked out to the side quite a bit (hence the "chicken wing" comment--though really this is misleading. He has such a phenomenally fluid beautiful stoke that using a term like "chicken wing" really doesn't do it justice. Maybe I should say "violin playing"?)
5) This has nothing to do with fundamentals, but has anyone noticed how far out to the side his pinky finger is on his bridge hand? It's at like a 90 degree angle to the rest of his hand!! Did he have to smash the bones and joints a lot as a kid to develop that ability?

KerryM

06-02-2003, 04:09 PM
Speaking of awkward strokes, I haven't noticed Busta's, but you reminded me of another pro with a horrible looking stroke: Monica Webb. Her wrist bends inward and her elbow flies outward in a weird crooked-arm stroke. It's amazing how somebody can learn to shoot so well with such flawed fundamentals.

Was it Willie Hoppe that learned to shoot when he was so young he had to side-arm his stroke to reach over the table, then just kept the same side-arm stroke through his whole life?

Ya dance with who brung ya, I reckon... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

BillPorter
06-02-2003, 04:54 PM
Fred, right on target. And Michael Coltrain gives Dick the 6 and the pops when it comes to the shakes. Mike is a sad case....I think it is called task specific dystonia.

John G
06-02-2003, 05:30 PM
Interesting, They even have a name for it now. In the 70s there was a pro bowler ( his name escapes me for now ) that would get up on the approach get his stance, ball posistion but couldn't take the first step unless someone gave him a little push. He would just stand there and rock back and forth. Once he started he was OK. Had to quit touring because of it. Go figure. Yes, that poor kid has got it pretty bad. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif What a loss of talent.

Ralph S.
06-02-2003, 05:41 PM
Speaking of McCready, how about that side arm stroke of his? If I stroked like that I'd miss by a mile.

miko
06-02-2003, 08:38 PM
One more reason, many Filipinos do this to hide what's the real english they apply to the cue ball. You will see that most if not all hustlers in the Philippines do this, specially in big money games.

arn3
06-02-2003, 10:46 PM
a lot of players aim that way, especially the filipinos. if everyone used the same fundamentals, we'd all be robots.

i don't know if there's a theory for it, but one thought is that you see the CB clearer because the cue is not blocking. also,,,have you noticed most players(from beginner to intermediate) pocket better with a draw stroke on the CB?

06-03-2003, 08:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr>...have you noticed most players(from beginner to intermediate) pocket better with a draw stroke on the CB? <hr /></blockquote>I must've been in the minority then. Follow shots were always easiest for me to aim and pocket with. To this day, after playing for 20+ years, I still have to be extra careful when aiming draw shots with any angle, as my natural tendancy seems to be to either cut way too thin or way too thick when applying draw.

Qtec
06-03-2003, 08:44 AM
Why? Q

Qtec
06-03-2003, 08:47 AM
Do you use the ghost ball method?
Is your cue angle flat or near flat?
Do you lower your bridge when playing draw?
Qtec

06-03-2003, 10:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Do you use the ghost ball method?
Is your cue angle flat or near flat?
Do you lower your bridge when playing draw?
Qtec <hr /></blockquote>Yes, I suppose you could say I use the ghost ball method. I didn't call it that until a few years ago when I became familiar with the term, but I've always just visualized the contact points between CB and OB, and just send the CB contact point to the OB contact point.

I always try keep my cue as flat as possible unless I'm trying to shoot a swerve (mild masse) shot. Actually, I'm pretty good at intentional swerve shots. It's when I DON'T want the CB to swerve that I sometimes have trouble, even when drawing with no side english. It's not enough of a problem to lose a lot of racks over, just an annoying inconsistency when I'm shooting draw cut shots. And yes, I flatten my bridge when shooting draw shots.

Scott Lee is scheduled to come by my house this month for a full day of coaching. I'll be sure to run it by him -- he can probably identify a stroke or aiming problem that's the culprit. The fun part will be un-training 20 years of whatever bad habit is causing it... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

cycopath
06-03-2003, 11:31 AM
Luc "Machinegun" Salvas barely takes time to line up a shot before he hits the cueball.

Qtec
06-03-2003, 11:51 AM
Try this. If you aim through the bottom of the Qball,[no english], you should be aiming for the bottom of the ghost ball. This way you will always have a flat cue angle. Try and visualise the ghost ball in front of the OB,see the point that in touches the cloth,aim for there. Remember, the point that you are aiming at is always the middle. Sounds to me that its just an aiming problem. Good luck. Qtec

miko
06-03-2003, 01:30 PM
I guess it is to prevent their opponents from learning how they executed the shot.

UTAddb
06-03-2003, 10:03 PM
I think its Archer who takes about 5 practice strokes then looks at the OB for the 1st time on his final stroke.

L.S. Dennis
06-03-2003, 10:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr> Luc "Machinegun" Salvas barely takes time to line up a shot before he hits the cueball. <hr /></blockquote>

Did you ever get a chance to watch Lou "Machinegun" Butera line before a shot? Blink and you missed it!

bluewolf
06-04-2003, 04:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr> Luc "Machinegun" Salvas barely takes time to line up a shot before he hits the cueball. <hr /></blockquote>

Does this mean no preshot?

Laura

Deeman
06-04-2003, 08:04 AM
[ <hr /></blockquote>

Does this mean no preshot?

Laura <hr /></blockquote>


Not even a thought of a pre-shot.

pooldaddy9
06-04-2003, 08:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr> Anybody know of unusual fundamentals in good players? IE-stroke, stance, bridge etc.

For ex, during the preshot, Effren aims at the bottom of the cueball and then shoots on a different place on the cueball.

sb <hr /></blockquote>

I catch myself doing the same thing sometimes.It's not trying to hide the shot,I can see the shot clearer that way.

Qtec
06-04-2003, 09:00 AM
Is he any good. Q

Qtec
06-04-2003, 09:04 AM
Fundamentals are fundamentals. What you are talking about is style. Qtec.