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bluewolf
06-04-2003, 05:48 AM
With centerball or check(like 1/2 to 1 tip), it is easier for me to tell where the cueball is going. I have a harder time with running english in terms of predicting where it will go and also controlling it..

Some people tend to use running only and so I am wondering what some of you who are experienced do. I know it is for position, so wonder if you have a preference or if you use both depending on the situation.

Any thoughts?

Laura

jjinfla
06-04-2003, 06:21 AM
You use IE and OE to make the CB go where you want it after it strikes a rail. Sigel recommends running english on all cut shots. Keep in mind that it is very hard for a beginner not to use some english. If you have a training ball, or a striped ball, try hitting perfect center ball. I am sure after you check the ball you will find that most of the time you will be a little left or right of vertical center. (In perfect CB half of the chalk is to left of vertical center and half is right of it). When that happens you are using english. That is why so many instructors stress using CB when starting out. If a person doesn't know how to hit CB how can he know how much english to use? And according to Sigel's video he is only using an 1/8 to 1/4 tip of english when he uses english. Most people would still call that CB. Jake

pooltchr
06-04-2003, 06:25 AM
IMHO, inside or outside english is neither good nor bad. The type of english used depends entirely on what you need the cue ball to do after the shot. It has minimal effect on the ob, but maximum effect on the cue ball after it hits a rail. As a beginner, most instructors will probably suggest trying to hit most of your shots along the vertical center line of the ball. Top or bottom spin will give you the best control of the cue ball along the aiming path. Once you have MASTERED that, you should begin with the side spin. Any time you do anything that alters the natural path or roll of the cb, you are setting yourself up for potential problems. Learn to take what the table gives you and use speed control rather than spin whenever possible. The results will be much more consistant.
Steve

06-04-2003, 08:15 AM
Laura, you still seem caught up in this ie vs oe thing. Don't think of it in terms of never using ie, or always using oe.

As pooltchr said, you use whatever english is appropriate for the cueball position you're trying to achieve. Neither is "bad" -- I have a feeling that Fast Larry was telling you that for a specific type of shot you were trying to make that using ie might make the shot more difficult.

When you're adept at english shots, you will cut some balls with ie because you want the cueball to go to a certain area of the table. Given a different table layout with different route requirements, you might hit that exact same shot with oe or no english, high or low, because you want the cueball to take a different route.

I'm no teacher, but what I would recommend you do is to learn the effects of english before trying to rely on it too much. Here's a quick quiz: can you describe how english causes or affects the following phenomena?

1. Throw

2. Squirt

3. Swerve or Masse

4. Rebound angle after rail contact

5. Rebound speed after rail contact

When you can accurately understand how english affects these phenomena, and how you must compensate when necessary, then you have a firm enough grasp of english to begin applying it, assuming your fundamental shot making ability with centerball is sound. From that point it comes down to a shot-by-shot decision. You talk about "not thinking" but to play good pool you must at least think (before you get down on the shot) about where you want the cueball to go for the next shot, and therefore you must decide whether and what type of english is appropriate for this shot. As players become more proficient they may appear to not be thinking, but they are still subconciously making the decision about which english is appropriate for each shot.

randyg
06-04-2003, 08:43 AM
Best advice ever given. BlueWolf is not a beginner, but she should still stay on Vertical Center as often as possible........randyg

bigbro6060
06-04-2003, 10:44 AM
laura from a knowledge point of view, you definitely aint no beginner ! you should have all the theory down pat and it's just a case of putting in the table time and developing your skills

I learnt all the theory about english, but then i put that to one side and just hit the table, setting up the same shot over and over and experimented with different tip positions,how much i had to adjust my aim for squirt/swerve and the effect on the angle off the cushion

it's just about programming the CPU baby!

SpiderMan
06-04-2003, 11:10 AM

SpiderMan
06-04-2003, 11:11 AM
I'd agree for the case of near-ideal equipment, but when you have dirty balls the friction between OB and CB often varies from shot-to-shot, ie depending on whether a chalky spot or a greasy spot happens to land at the point-of-contact. For that case, almost anyone's pocketing will benefit from a little bit of outside, as this eliminates OB-path dependency on those uncontrollable parameters. Then, it just becomes a matter of hitting the contact point, and the slight squirt compensation is less evil than the unpredictable cling/throw.

Many beginning players, with no help or instruction, gravitate to slight outside without knowing why. They just note cause and effect, and do what makes their consistency improve. Only a month or so after first picking up a cue, I noticed that cut shots went where aimed much better with OE, though at the time I had no idea why.

SpiderMan

9 Ball Girl
06-04-2003, 12:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> laura from a knowledge point of view, you definitely aint no beginner ! <hr /></blockquote>

I agree. And I for one can't wait to see Bluewolfie play in September. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Qtec
06-04-2003, 12:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Fast Larry told me inside is bad, outside is good <hr /></blockquote> The guy must be an idiot. Qtec

Rod
06-04-2003, 01:13 PM
I agree with you Spidey. Equipment in many rooms is less than ideal. Dirty balls and table conditions play a major roll in what a shot dictates. While it wuld be nice to say use center ball it just isn't possible at times. It could be said to compensate without english. Well one time it works and another time it doesn't. I really depends on the angle.

Yesterday at clicks I run into such conditions. Actually it is very common there so it only takes one or two pushed balls to see the hand writing on the wall. I think one place where some people go wrong is over use of outside, or inside for that matter. By over use I don't mean to often, of course that happens to. What I mean is too much side. A shot only needs a half tip to to prevent skid. At a half tip there is no need for any compensation for aim ie squirt. You don't need special shafts etc, it simply isn't necessary. It starts getting tricky with more side because a little aim compensation is needed. Depending on speed, amount of english and dirty balls, you can over throw a shot. The dirt, chalk, humidity, french fries, hamburger grease etc, magnifies any error.

If I play any 14-1 there I take my own balls. I simply can not rely on their equipment. Outside of dirt etc, which is bad enough, and the combination of worn balls it makes playing 14-1 a chore. The balls don't rack well, a big no no and they don't spread well. Sometimes it's like hitting a brick wall. LOL Pool can be anything but fun or work in some conditions. The newer or even somewhat advanced players may fail to understand just what is happening as you said. They might find OE as a benefit and not know why. Since it works they take the whole bottle thinking more is better. The the bottom falls out because it's not consistant depending on the conditions. Now we need special shafts etc because it can't be us it must be squirt, the cue etc. LOL I realize that's not always the case but from what I hear, here and at the pool room it definately exists way more than it should.

The simple answer is until people know how to identify the cause of the problem it will always be a guessing game. That takes time and there will always be a little guess work even with the best of conditions. So saying center ball is not always the best advice. If english is used it needs to be in moderation especially for a newer player. That and know why your using it. Position, avoid another ball etc is my first thought. To reduce contact induced throw ie dirt etc on certain cut shots is my second thought. But that normally applies if it is at a slower speed. Having a favorite english just for the sake of using it IMO is utterly ridiculous. It takes both sides to play most games well. Even good players make position mistakes and need a little side to get back in line. I think the average amature visions far more than is put into most shots. What they really see is a pro or very advanced players that moves the balls with little to no effort. I think they vision some of this as a super stroke, lots of english etc. In ther efforts trying to do the same there is little to no timing in the stroke and they hit the balls even harder to make something happen. WRONG

Here is an example, yesterday playing a fellow, yes I actually played. LOL After a couple of hours I started playing pretty good. I killed a rack, three balls and c/b in the center. Getting out was not a problem. After that rack the guy asks, " Do you ever shoot hard?" I said well yes I hit that break pretty sweet. He said no during that game and the others you never shoot hard. To which I replied, well I may hit some shots a little harder than you think, I just don't show it!

Rod

Rod
06-04-2003, 03:06 PM
Hey Spidey,
Next time you go to clicks take a dial indicator caliper or such and measure the c/b and a few balls. I'll bet that these balls here are at least .025" worn. Some may be near that far out of round. I'll be going down tommorrow and I'm going to check. These balls haven't been replaced for years. The reason I suggest this is getting a decent rack without fiddling around with the balls to get them frozen. I know a decent rack is difficult at best, even then there will be some gaps. Just curious in what you or anyone else finds.

Rod

qSHAFT
06-04-2003, 05:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Fast Larry told me inside is bad, outside is good <hr /></blockquote> The guy must be an idiot. Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

Not that I want to defend fast larry, but generally speaking from a pure potting point of view and ignoring cue ball position, a minisule amount of outside english does make a shot easier. Using OE you can aim for the theoretical ghost ball point of contact and not worry about compensating for ball cling, a variable that can change with each set of balls, thus greatly simplifying the shot.

I think idiot is a bit harsh, he may have no idea when it comes to interacting with people, but he can make his shots.

Cheers - qSHAFT

bluewolf
06-04-2003, 06:00 PM
"I'm no teacher, but what I would recommend you do is to learn the effects of english before trying to rely on it too much. Here's a quick quiz: can you describe how english causes or affects the following phenomena?"

1. Throw-contact induced throw made less cling by outside english. Inside makes it more cling. This is more with a slow hit.

2. Squirt- name of our dog LOL.. I think it squirts more with english,whatever squirt is.

3. Swerve or Masse- get cueball swerve on long shots so benefit of oe to help throw is two things working opposite..so i use centerball with tip adjustment

4. Rebound angle after rail contact- larger for oe, smaller angle for ie. That is why oe widens the angle on a bank and ie narrows the angle on a bank.

5. Rebound speed after rail contact-oe, speed increased coming off the rail, speed decreased for ie so some call oe running and call ie dieing on the rail (reverse)

Thanks for everyone's suggestions. I was doing good on my long shots and have been doing crappy all week on them. So am learning shape.I figure shape is the answer . Also curious as to people's perceptions of ie vs oe since I seem to like both.

As far as using them to throw the ball into the pocket, this sometimes seems to happen with both but on different shots,but centerball works most of the time anyway.

I know that lots of people say that english does not affect the object ball but affects the action off on the rails. Perhaps it is not the english but the spinning and sliding into the object ball that does it. Beats me.

Thanks a bunch. I will reread all of these posts because they were very good.

Laura

TomBrooklyn
06-04-2003, 07:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>4. Rebound angle after rail contact- larger for oe, smaller angle for ie. That is why oe widens the angle on a bank and ie narrows the angle on a bank.

5. Rebound speed after rail contact-oe, speed increased coming off the rail, speed decreased for ie so some call oe running and call ie dieing on the rail (reverse)<hr /></blockquote>That is incorrect. You are stating that OE is Running English and IE is Reverse. That is usually but not always true, as can be seen from the following wei table (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html) illustration.

START(%Ag3O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%H M7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%P]2O6%Qu3X1%Ro9]2%Wr4D3%Xh0N7%Yr1V8%Ze9P3%[m8Z4%\e9P3%]e0P4%^^2O7%eC3a4)END

On this shot, right english is outside english. If you pot the ball with OE and a little top you can contact the short rail around Point A and this will be a running english contact.

However, if you pot the ball with OE and some draw, you can contact the long rail around Point B. This will be a reverse english contact, even though you used OE.

The opposite is true for Left English which would be Inside English on this shot. In the case of IE, Contact at point A would be Reverse English and contact at point B would be Running English.

By the way, if you stun hit the OB on this shot, I believe you will scratch.

=TB

TomBrooklyn
06-04-2003, 08:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> The guy must be an idiot.<hr /></blockquote>Did it ever occur to you Mr. Qtec, that bluewolf may have misinterpreted or misquoted Fast Larry?

I know Fast Larry. Fast Larry is a friend of mine. Now I don't know much about you, aside from your prediliction for hurling insults willy nilly at people you've never met, but if you know even half as much about pool as Fast Larry does, you are certainly a smart guy.

TomBrooklyn
06-04-2003, 08:36 PM
I use english to get position off of rails.

I don't try to spin object balls into pockets unless I can't hit the contact point and I'm forced to, despite Mike Siegel's assertion that it can't be done.

Also, I am generally reluctant to use english on any shot that I am not comfortable I can make without english, as sometimes applying english throws my aim off a little or can add deflection and swerve factors.

Aside from it just being a preference that some people enjoy using, and some say they are compensating for collision induced throw, but this is a factor I am unable to detect and I ignore, at least consciously with no adverse effect, I am flummoxed as to why anyone, but particlarly a beginner, would be adding this factor of unneccesary complication into their shooting.

As far as dirty ball throw or greasy ball skid, I don't generally worry about that because I rarely play with balls that are not clean and polished. If I'm given a set at the pool hall that is not that way, I have them polished before I begin. Not only does this makes them good to play with, it makes them cool to look at.

bluewolf
06-05-2003, 05:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> The guy must be an idiot.<hr /></blockquote>Did it ever occur to you Mr. Qtec, that bluewolf may have misinterpreted or misquoted Fast Larry?

<hr /></blockquote>

Fast Larry has a preference for running english. I got the impression that he thought that only advanced people should be using IE also. So he has a preference and also thought that I was not advanced enough to be using IE.

I have watched good players at non-handicapped tournies and the pros and noted as I originally stated that some use IE more than OE and the reverse.

I am glad that Tom brought this up because I really do not think having a preference makes a person an idiot. Larry's knowlege is vast, he just has a preference, that is all.

Also, if you have ever met him, he is a pretty funny guy, and sometimes presents things in a funny way.

Laura

#### leonard
06-05-2003, 06:15 AM
Laura go to this site to see my artistic ability.####

1. timesunion.com
2. click communities on left
3. click Art at bottom
4. click colonie art league
5. click members gallery
6. scroll down to Richard "Van Gogh" Leonard

Fred Agnir
06-05-2003, 08:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> 4. Rebound angle after rail contact- larger for oe, smaller angle for ie. That is why oe widens the angle on a bank and ie narrows the angle on a bank.<hr /></blockquote> This is for "running english." Either outside or inside english can be running english depending on which direction and spin the cueball has when it approaches the cushion. If I had a vote, I'd vote to have outside, inside, running, reverse, check, holdup... defined clearly in the BCA book.

Fred

bluewolf
06-05-2003, 08:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> This is for "running english." Either outside or inside english can be running english depending on which direction and spin the cueball has when it approaches the cushion. If I had a vote, I'd vote to have outside, inside, running, reverse, check, holdup... defined clearly in the BCA book.

Fred
<hr /></blockquote>

Gee. I am just trying to get the hang of doing it off one rail.

Phil Capelle diagrams and words seem to say that check becomes running off the second rail. Running becomes check(slower) off of the third rail.

So that is what I am hearing.

Laura

bluewolf
06-05-2003, 08:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote #### leonard:</font><hr> Laura go to this site to see my artistic ability.####

<hr /></blockquote>

Beautiful pictures, Leonard. I sent you a pm.

Laura

06-05-2003, 08:56 AM
bluewolf, just to hit on something that Fred and others are saying, I've noticed in virtually all of your posts about english, you're always using the terms IE and OE. I'm wondering if always thinking in those terms might lead to some of the confusion about the subject?

As Fred indicated, there are many different ways to refer to the direction of english that are more appropriate to specific shots. Some shots should be thought of as "inside" or "outside" but others should be seen in terms of "running" and "check." Scott Lee made a point in another thread about always thinking in terms of just "left" and "right" because those are absolute terms. The other terms like inside, outside, running, check, holdup, reverse, etc. are relative terms that depend on each shot. I find when analyzing a shot that I naturally tend to think (for example) "I need to hit this shot with (high-left/low-right/a little left/etc) english to put the cueball where I want." Seldom do I ever think in terms of "running" english, or "holdup" english, or "inside" english. Still, you must *understand* that left means running or outside FOR THIS SHOT but also left will mean holdup or maybe inside on other shots.

Popcorn
06-05-2003, 09:07 AM
I have no idea what you are talking about. English is a tool you use as needed. It is not something you do for no reason. There are specific uses for it and the better the player the more they can use it to their advantage. One player does not use all inside and another uses all outside, that's nuts. Outside can assist in pocketing a ball sometimes because it reduces the friction and may prevent a ball skidding. Some inside may help when cutting a ball in that is frozen to a rail. You use it as needed and as little an amount as you can. Beyond that you stay around the center line of the cue ball. I don't know what it is you are searching for. There is no secret out there someone is keeping from you, just play the game in the simplest way you can. Even for a pro, the goal is to keep it simple. Good pool is just a continuum of simple things that can be accomplished by most average players if the did not screw it up for themselves.

Qtec
06-05-2003, 09:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]


Quote Qtec:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The guy must be an idiot.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did it ever occur to you Mr. Qtec, that bluewolf may have misinterpreted or misquoted Fast Larry <hr /></blockquote> No it didnt. Why should it? Am i a mind reader ? Am i supposed to disbelieve everything people say on this forum ? [ QUOTE ]
I know Fast Larry. Fast Larry is a friend of mine. Now I don't know much about you, aside from your prediliction for hurling insults willy nilly at people you've never met, but if you know even half as much about pool as Fast Larry does, you are certainly a smart guy.
<hr /></blockquote> Because FL is a friend of yours its normal that you should want to defend him. Let me say this,if he didnt say it ,i take it back. If he did say it,then i still say he doesnt know what he is talking about [on this point] OK.
Just because you can play pool ,doesnt mean that you can teach it.The difference is, the coach teaches you the right way, and the player shows you how to play like he does.You often hear ""this is the way i do it"" or ""i always do it like this"" Does that ring a bell?

Maybe i do have a big mouth ,sometimes i jump in. I never said i was perfect. I dont expect anything from anyone exept the truth. A lot of people come here for advice and if you let things like this go, people might get the wrong idea. I was just trying to help. If you know that this is not what FL said ,why didnt you set her straight.Or would you rather she continue to believe this ""misconception""
Qtec

bluewolf
06-05-2003, 09:11 AM
Seems like the tangent line enters into this in terms of how the cb will act and also top and bottom.Also the number of rails one is referring to.

I have experienced with different variations but just a few types of shots.

Laura

Fred Agnir
06-05-2003, 09:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Phil Capelle diagrams and words seem to say that check becomes running off the second rail. Running becomes check(slower) off of the third rail.<hr /></blockquote>I hope that's not what he's saying.

Fred &lt;~~~ not about to call Phil Capelle an "idiot."

Wally_in_Cincy
06-05-2003, 09:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr>....I know Fast Larry. Fast Larry is a friend of mine.... <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe you should check out playpool.com. He needs some help over there. LOL

Wally~~thinks the Fast Man deserves to get back what he dishes

bluewolf
06-05-2003, 10:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Phil Capelle diagrams and words seem to say that check becomes running off the second rail. Running becomes check(slower) off of the third rail.<hr /></blockquote>I hope that's not what he's saying.

Fred &lt;~~~ not about to call Phil Capelle an "idiot." <hr /></blockquote>

It is always possible that I did not read it right. Perhaps someone smarter will clear that up

Eric.
06-05-2003, 11:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Since I am a beginner, I am presenting this from the viewpoint of a beginner.

I do not know where I learned IE, only that I knew it when I picked up a cue after not playing for 30 years. I do not know if I learned it as a young adult or in my attic where I played with my dad at the age of ten.

Fast Larry told me inside is bad, outside is good. While i do mostly centerball and I do use outside on some shots, when I am doing my usual not thinking, just get down on the shot and shoot, I am using inside often.I did not know this. Larry was at my house one night and pointed this out. I really do not think about english unless practicing it in a drill.

Initially doing lots of outside per Larry, like any quick fix, i played better. Then I started playing bad again because I think that just shooting works better for me than to fight my natural inclinations.

Also with centerball or inside(like 1/2 to 1 tip), it is easier for me to tell where the cueball is going.

With outside, it is kind of 'hail mary',the ball bounces off the rails, frequently running down the table, or hit softs runs softwhere shorter, but having no idea of where it will end up, praying I will have a shot.

I do not know if it will help to say that I am very artistic. Right brained and do not think when a canvas is in front of me. I think that other than standing when planning strategy, when I get down on that cueball, all conscious thought flies out of my brain with the speed of a locomotive.

I can think when doing drills and I guess drills do help.

We watched allison vs jeanette lee last night. Allison used a lot of IE, jeanette used OE. Dont know whhy but allison had better cb control. I mean, I dont know if there is a english choice connection.

Any thoughts?

Laura <hr /></blockquote>

cheesemouse
06-05-2003, 11:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr>....I know Fast Larry. Fast Larry is a friend of mine.... <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe you should check out playpool.com. He needs some help over there. LOL

Wally~~thinks the Fast Man deserves to get back what he dishes <hr /></blockquote>

Wally,
He is falling into the same trap he got caught in over here at the ccb...He knows what he's doing; he likes it...the difference is over there it is smut talking wolfers heaven. He has found himself a home...LOL

Rod
06-05-2003, 11:27 AM
[ QUOTE ]
We watched allison vs jeanette lee last night. Allison used a lot of IE, jeanette used OE. Dont know whhy but allison had better cb control. I mean, I dont know if there is a english choice connection.

<hr /></blockquote>
Laura,

English isn't a fad, they use it for a reason. Just to make a comment about inside or outside without a reference is confusing at best and leads no where. Put this stuff in a diagram and do tell where the next shot is and where the c/b went. Chances are any pro player would shoot many shots the same way.

I really don't know how to answer a question if there isn't one to begin with. You have to have a clearly defined statement or question if you expect a defined answer or reply. Would you care to elaborate on any of the two hundred or so words of text?

But leave this out, [ QUOTE ]
when I get down on that cueball, all conscious thought flies out of my brain with the speed of a locomotive.
<hr /></blockquote>

Not trying to be mean or rude but your post suggests it was written in the same state as the above quote.


~~~ rod, hope this helps

TomBrooklyn
06-05-2003, 11:50 AM
Well argh, Qtec. I can defend him because he is not here. To tell you the truth, if he was here, I wouldn't be saying as much about it, because he can be a lot more obnoxious than almost anyone, so....aaarggghhh. Forget about it.

TonyMN
06-05-2003, 12:12 PM
Laura,

IIRC, running becomes check, and vice-versa, when the rails are non-adjacent (opposite side of the table). It will remain running side as long as the rails are adjacent.

e.g.

Wei Table (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pl2O8%Qj0A5%Ra8\1%S s6J6%Wj9D4
%Xl2O0%Yb9Z9%Zj6C5%[`8D1%\b5[3%eA9a3
)END

At A, the left hand english (running) opens the angle, and at B the same english (but now check, because this is a non-adjacent rail), closes the angle (to a lesser amount).

If the cue-ball had been hit towards C, with the same left-hand spin, it would open the angle at C, then open the angle further at A (roughly).

Clear as mud?

Tony.

Rod
06-05-2003, 12:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Phil Capelle diagrams and words seem to say that check becomes running off the second rail. Running becomes check(slower) off of the third rail.<hr /></blockquote>I hope that's not what he's saying.

Fred &lt;~~~ not about to call Phil Capelle an "idiot." <hr /></blockquote>

It is always possible that I did not read it right. Perhaps someone smarter will clear that up <hr /></blockquote>


Again no reference to the shot, rails or english. You can't clear anything up without a reference. It is definately possible to have check become running english off the second or more rails. It is also possible to have check remain check off the second rail. Add check, check then running. You can even have check, then running and then check. There all just statements, it really doesn't mean anything without an explanation or a diagram. LOL Am I going to diagram them? No but I could and give the reference in a position route. Instead I'm just painting a picture in my mind, the same as when I play pool. Visualization

~~rod, adding to the confusion /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

St Paul Gal
06-05-2003, 12:14 PM
I'm pretty much done over there. Between Sniper and the rest, visiting is pointless and demeaning.

bluewolf
06-05-2003, 12:23 PM
To Rod and Tonymn,

Yes, both of your posts were very helpful, thankyou.

Laura

Wally_in_Cincy
06-05-2003, 12:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote St Paul Gal:</font><hr> I'm pretty much done over there. Between Sniper and the rest, visiting is pointless and demeaning. <hr /></blockquote>

Did you ever read "Lord of the Flies" ? LMAO

bluewolf
06-05-2003, 12:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> .

Not trying to be mean or rude but your post suggests it was written in the same state as the above quote.

~~ rod, hope this helps
<hr /></blockquote>

I edited my original post. Hope that helps. If that is not good enough, that is okay. It is the best way I can say it.

TomBrooklyn
06-05-2003, 12:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> To Rod and Tonymn, both of your posts were very helpful, thank you.<hr /></blockquote>How about mine? I thought my diagram was more interesting than Tony's.

bluewolf
06-05-2003, 12:57 PM
LOL. Yes. And your explanation was very good.

Nightstalker
06-05-2003, 01:10 PM
I personally only intentionally use english when I need it, otherwise I try to use straight-follow or straight-draw to obtain the position I need. Usually that is all that is necessary. No need to over-complicate things. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Rod
06-05-2003, 02:29 PM
Muchoo Grande better. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]
With centerball or check(like 1/2 to 1 tip), it is easier for me to tell where the cueball is going. I have a harder time with running english in terms of predicting where it will go and also controlling it..

Some people tend to use running only and so I am wondering what some of you who are experienced do. I know it is for position, so wonder if you have a preference or if you use both depending on the situation.

Any thoughts?

Laura <hr /></blockquote>

As for check sometimes it is a little more simple for some when they don't know their way around the rails. It can be more of a defensive move just to make sure you have some kind of shot. Not necessarly the best shot but a shot all the same. Yes running english can get away from you, it happens all the time. The trick with any english is how much and speed of stroke. In time you'll need to experiment with both. Set up a simple shot and use different combinations of english to play position on one ball. The reason being you need options when a particular route is closed.

For those dear souls that tend to go one way they are limited. Their only playing half of the game per-say.
I use what the situation calls for. One rack may have two check shots and three running shots or any number of each. What ever way to give me the best angle on my next shot.
Watch the strong players or pro's they use all of the options.

Rod

bluewolf
06-05-2003, 03:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Fast Larry told me inside is bad, outside is good <hr /></blockquote> The guy must be an idiot. Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

Sorry. I did a booboo. Fast Larry said that he did not say this.

Laura

SpiderMan
06-05-2003, 04:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>
With centerball or check(like 1/2 to 1 tip), it is easier for me to tell where the cueball is going. I have a harder time with running english in terms of predicting where it will go and also controlling it..

Some people tend to use running only and so I am wondering what some of you who are experienced do. I know it is for position, so wonder if you have a preference or if you use both depending on the situation.

Any thoughts?

Laura <hr /></blockquote>

BW,

Since you've edited your original question, I'll post again here at the top.

The answer is most experienced players will choose english based upon the individual situation, usually to affect cueball action off the first rail. Less often english will be used to "throw" a shot so that cueball movement off the object ball can be slightly modified or so that a shot can be made from an approach line that is not ideal (such as when the CB is very slightly blocked from the ideal line).

But, given a situation which allows me several options, I would tend to choose a small amount of outside english because my pocketing is improved by the reduction of cling effects (as Rod and I noted in posts further down, reduction of cling is often a great tradeoff for the miniscule squirt compensation needed).

SpiderMan

Rip
06-05-2003, 07:23 PM
Reading this thread reminded me of an experience I feel the need to share.

A few years ago I tried to teach a pig to dance. It was very frustrating for me...and it was a complete waste of the pig's time.

Believe it or not,
Rip

Qtec
06-05-2003, 09:43 PM
START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pl4V3%Qj0A5%Ra8\1%S s6J6%TI6D4
%Ws1K3%Xm1T9%Ym6Z4%Zp1C4%[K1D0%\m2Z9%]p4D0%^s5I4%eC7a4
)END
Check, check,running,and then checking at point A ?
Qtec

bigbro6060
06-05-2003, 10:12 PM
You can do a hell of a lot with centreball but of course english is necessary for some shots

Many players overuse it though

I have these drills where i just break the balls up nice, and have BIH and try pot all the balls,any order, like straight pool

then i do the same but every shot has to use follow, see how many i can make

then the same but every shot has to use draw, see how many i can make

then the same but every shot has to use left or right english (with no follow or draw), see how many i can make

gets very interesting !

TonyM
06-06-2003, 01:01 AM
"but when you have dirty balls the friction between OB and CB often varies from shot-to-shot, ie depending on whether a chalky spot or a greasy spot happens to land at the point-of-contact. For that case, almost anyone's pocketing will benefit from a little bit of outside, as this eliminates OB-path dependency on those uncontrollable parameters."

But there is a two edges sword to this as well. A small change in the amount of sodespin can therefore affect the path of the object ball.

It can be shown (both by equations and on the table) that it might be better to stay near the center of the cueball and reduce the throw by the application of a bit of follow or draw (or speed) then by using "a tiny bit" of outside english.

The reason is that a small change in tip location (ie: more or less sidespin) is far more detrimental than most people realize.

They get into a habit and use the OE english without thinking about it.

Playing weekly snooker for the last two years has nearly cured me of the OE english affliction.

I've seen that it is not a benefit and more often another variable that can result in missed pots.

Tony
-centerball unless the position demands it....

06-06-2003, 04:45 AM
well i'd say that in order to get used to the way english plays out, you have to incorporate it into your practice, i my self use english on angles and cut shots because i can control the speed of the cb and most importantly for me, i keep the cb in the center of the table &amp; from the center of the table theirs damn near no shot that can't be made. so just play with it in practice alot &amp; eventually you'll get comfortable with it, just let it control you or your game.

Qtec
06-06-2003, 05:35 AM
Thank you Tony, this is exactly what i have been saying. Any pool player who wants to check his stroke should get himself on a snooker table.If you constantly play with english ,you will be lucky to pot 3 balls in a row.

Qtec

cheesemouse
06-06-2003, 05:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Thank you Tony, this is exactly what i have been saying. Any pool player who wants to check his stroke should get himself on a snooker table.If you constantly play with english ,you will be lucky to pot 3 balls in a row.

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

But playing with out radical english is so BORING.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

bluewolf
06-06-2003, 06:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Thank you Tony, this is exactly what i have been saying. Any pool player who wants to check his stroke should get himself on a snooker table.If you constantly play with english ,you will be lucky to pot 3 balls in a row.

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

QTEC, I would like to know about this snooker. I have seen some small red balls at the pool store. We have a snooker table in one of the poolhalls. Please send me a private on this.I am thinking that this would help me game plus I like those little red balls. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

#### leonard
06-06-2003, 06:57 AM
Laura just go to BBC.Com/snooker and check the video box on Ronnie O'Sullivan 147 in 6 12 minutes he earns 269 thousand dollars. ####

Fred Agnir
06-06-2003, 07:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyMN:</font><hr> Laura,

IIRC, running becomes check, and vice-versa, when the rails are non-adjacent (opposite side of the table). It will remain running side as long as the rails are adjacent.

e.g.

Wei Table (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)
<hr /></blockquote>Here's an interesting non-adjacent double-check.

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pm0U9%Qj0A5%Rn6[2%Wj5D3%Xm1T9
%Yo3Z5%Zj5C7%[L8^5%eC7a4
)END

FWIW,

Fred

Qtec
06-06-2003, 07:34 AM
Frank knows what he,s talking about.
http://www.fcsnooker.co.uk/

Qtec

Eric.
06-06-2003, 07:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rip:</font><hr>
Believe it or not,
Rip
<hr /></blockquote>

Shouldn't that the Rip(ley) /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif?


Eric &gt;believes

SpiderMan
06-06-2003, 08:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> It can be shown (both by equations and on the table) that it might be better to stay near the center of the cueball and reduce the throw by the application of a bit of follow or draw (or speed) then by using "a tiny bit" of outside english.Tony
-centerball unless the position demands it.... <hr /></blockquote>

I have found "on the table" that the opposite is true, "a tiny bit" of outside on cut shots benefits more often than not. The exception would be when the equipment is very good and clean, so that contact throw (skid) does not vary from shot to shot.

I keep an open mind, however, and as an engineer would be interested in a posting of your equations that prove otherwise /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

SpiderMan

Popcorn
06-06-2003, 08:46 AM
What size are the pockets you are talking about. I have played snooker in England, Denmark, Holland Germany and most of Europe. I was surprised to see how big the pockets were. In the US the snooker tables are much tighter then in Europe. I remember seeing Rex Williams playing in the US and he could not play on the table, he lost gambling to a local guy. He quit and said he never played on a table like that. On most American 5 x 10 tables and even the 6 x 12's the holes are very small, you can't even shoot a ball down the rail. In Europe I thought the tables ridiculously easy from what I was used to. Forget about a table set up for golf, you can't make the ball if it more the a few feet from the hole.

TonyMN
06-06-2003, 09:29 AM
Qtec,
That looks correct to me. The amount of spin is diminishing with each rail contact, so don't expect much left at the end.

Tony in MN.

TonyMN
06-06-2003, 09:33 AM
Fred,
That is a good example that breaks the rule. I was basing my information from something in the 99 Critical Shots book, and I will have to go an re-read that page.

Tony in MN.

Fred Agnir
06-06-2003, 09:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> What size are the pockets you are talking about. I have played snooker in England, Denmark, Holland Germany and most of Europe. I was surprised to see how big the pockets were. <hr /></blockquote>ditto.

Fred

Qtec
06-06-2003, 09:53 AM
Popcorn, it does make a difference what kind of table you play on. All tabels have the same size pockets ,its how they are cut that makes the difference .Certainly, on the continent most tables are not comp. standard [prof].The reason for this is simple. If its too difficult, people wont play. People want to pot balls . If you are being introduced to a game the promoters want you to enjoy, not be frustrated. Most people here switch to pool because they find snooker too difficult.Most clubs now have one or two match tabels, and like you say,potting along the rail is sometimes impossible.
As for Rex. Those were the dark days for snooker. Pro. snooker then was a club. A self protecting club. They only admited one[ or maybe two] players each year. Even if the top ten amateurs were ten times better than the profs.,only one could play. It didnt exactly encourage good players to continue playing and it kept snooker down.
What I was suggesting was that if you practice on a snooker table you will find that english wont help you pot balls and you will clearly see if you are hitting through the middle .
I dont know of any American snooker players. Does your last name begin with a M ?

Qtec

Fred Agnir
06-06-2003, 10:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Most people here switch to pool because they find snooker too difficult.<hr /></blockquote>I think you misspelled "boring."

Fred

Popcorn
06-06-2003, 10:16 AM
I am no snooker player, I was over there hustling pool and did play a lot of snooker. In the early 90's quite a few American player were going back and forth to Europe, especially Germany gambling. It was not unusal to win $20,000 to $50,000 on a trip. I was there a number of times for months at a time. The European players were very naive as to pool hustlers, they believe anything you told them, they bet high, didn't ask for spots and seemed to never quit. This changed of course after a while, and an American could not get a game, but it was nice while it lasted. I will say this was not the case in Holland though. They did not seem to have the ego problems the Germans have, they would pull up when they saw what was happening. I spent a lot of time in Holland (Netherlands) even though I was not making any money there, I liked it. Might be the nicest people in the world, although they are stoned a lot. (coffee and dreams)

Qtec
06-06-2003, 10:18 AM
When i first started playing snooker, long time ago ,I was using english on almost every shot. It took me a long time to get out of it.Even now i sometimes find that i automatically line up wrong. At a certain point the only ball i could shoot through the middle was a straight shot.
The fact is ,if you cant shoot straight you have a problem,this is why you should learn to shoot staight.
You are absolutely right.There is nothing like playing with extreme side ,sending the Qball round the table, coming off 5 rails and the Qball stoping on a dime.

START(
%AH0O1%EE2O0%PN2E9%Uk4[1%Vq9P4%WE4N0%XN3F2%YJ2D2%ZC8L7%[q7O3
%\K9C7%]M3I9%^i7[2
)END
Qtec

Qtec
06-06-2003, 11:48 AM
LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Nice one Fred
Qtec

Mr Ingrate
06-06-2003, 12:06 PM
An SL 3.14! PI Wolf, is that you?



~~~ 17 post 'til the CCB US Open ~~~

Deeman
06-06-2003, 12:26 PM
Dave. I'm neck and neck with you on the posts. Of course, since you are running the tournament, I bet they will let you slide on the 200 requirement!

Dee

Mr Ingrate
06-06-2003, 01:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman:</font><hr> Dave. I'm neck and neck with you on the posts. Of course, since you are running the tournament, I bet they will let you slide on the 200 requirement!

Dee <hr /></blockquote>

Dee,

I'm bound and determined to make it legally without requiring special dispensations. I apologize in advance for the quality of my posts.

~~~ Now 15 posts away from the CCB US Open. Yes! NPR posts also count! ~~~

Fred Agnir
06-06-2003, 01:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr Ingrate:</font><hr> I'm bound and determined to make it legally without requiring special dispensations. <hr /></blockquote>Like an Annika Exemption?

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks Dave can go on his own sponsor's freebie

Qtec
06-06-2003, 09:03 PM
If she was allowed to play off the woman,s tee, i reckon she would easily have made the cut.In boxing you dont get a lightweight against a heavyweight.The only advantage the men have is power.
Q