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03-28-2002, 07:07 AM
Fran,I've read a few posts where you've mentioned "reading the rack" to determine how you are going to break the balls soft vs hard. My question is if you take a look at the rack and see a misalignment,tilt,gap between balls or something you don't like, why not just ask for a re-rack until you're happy with the rack?. I could see your point if you were in a tourny and a ref racked with the rule "take the rack as it is" otherwise I'd make the person keep racking til I was happy with teh result. It's our right as a player to be content with the rack before breaking IMO..thanx....Gerry

SPetty
03-28-2002, 10:29 AM
Hi Gerry,

I'm not Fran, but "reading the rack" is not the same as looking for a perfect rack. The rack is generally not exactly the same every time, and the misalignments, tilts, and gaps between the balls can often be in the favor of the breaker. But to find these advantages, you must "read the rack". If there are problems with the rack that the breaker can't take advantage of, then of course, the breaker should ask for a rerack.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Gerry:</font><hr> Fran,I've read a few posts where you've mentioned "reading the rack" to determine how you are going to break the balls soft vs hard. My question is if you take a look at the rack and see a misalignment,tilt,gap between balls or something you don't like, why not just ask for a re-rack until you're happy with the rack?. I could see your point if you were in a tourny and a ref racked with the rule "take the rack as it is" otherwise I'd make the person keep racking til I was happy with teh result. It's our right as a player to be content with the rack before breaking IMO..thanx....Gerry <hr></blockquote>

03-28-2002, 03:02 PM
Gerry, SPetty gave you the same answer I would have. I also want to add that knowing how to read a rack is an advantage to the person racking as well. One of the reasons I think the Sardo rack came about was that if you had two knowledgable rack-readers playing each other, you'd see a lot of bickering back and forth and re-racking going on... the racker is using his knowledge to stop his opponent from making a ball on the break, while the breaker is reading the rack and seeing what the racker is trying to do. There's no way the racker is going to allow certain balls to become loose and there's no way the breaker is going to allow other balls to be loose...and it becomes a battle of wits. It obviously takes up a lot of time and holds back play.

That's the down-side of hand racking. But the up-side is that if you snooze you lose, and if you haven't taken the time to learn about racks, you deserve to pay the price, and the more knowledgable player shouldn't be penalized for doing his homework.

Keep in mind that I'm not talking about illegal racking. There's a lot of room to stay within legal limits and still set the rack to your advantage. It's part of the game and I haven't seen any argument to convince me that it should be eliminated. Certainly the player who knows less about racking is going to argue that the rack should be the same for every player (hence the Sardo rack concept) but until I'm convinced otherwise, I see that as forcing an unfair equalization of players, which degrades the player with more knowledge in this area.

Fran

SpiderMan
03-28-2002, 04:09 PM
Fran,

I seem to remember a recent discussion of racks that mentioned a reference book.
Do you know that title and author, and have you read it? Is it worthwhile, accurate?

Probably it's perspective is 9-ball applications, but I would be interested in reading
it anyway if it were highly recommended.

SpiderMan


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Gerry, SPetty gave you the same answer I would have. I also want to add that knowing how to read a rack is an advantage to the person racking as well. One of the reasons I think the Sardo rack came about was that if you had two knowledgable rack-readers playing each other, you'd see a lot of bickering back and forth and re-racking going on... the racker is using his knowledge to stop his opponent from making a ball on the break, while the breaker is reading the rack and seeing what the racker is trying to do. There's no way the racker is going to allow certain balls to become loose and there's no way the breaker is going to allow other balls to be loose...and it becomes a battle of wits. It obviously takes up a lot of time and holds back play.

That's the down-side of hand racking. But the up-side is that if you snooze you lose, and if you haven't taken the time to learn about racks, you deserve to pay the price, and the more knowledgable player shouldn't be penalized for doing his homework.

Keep in mind that I'm not talking about illegal racking. There's a lot of room to stay within legal limits and still set the rack to your advantage. It's part of the game and I haven't seen any argument to convince me that it should be eliminated. Certainly the player who knows less about racking is going to argue that the rack should be the same for every player (hence the Sardo rack concept) but until I'm convinced otherwise, I see that as forcing an unfair equalization of players, which degrades the player with more knowledge in this area.

Fran

<hr></blockquote>

03-28-2002, 04:21 PM
Fran:

I cannot see why the Sardo rack (or any other device which eliminates a bit of luck and most manipulation from the break) is unfair in consequence. Corey Deuel learned how to use a Sardo rack to his advantage. Others can too. At least Deuel's soft break avoids skirting the edge of legality. A tight rack (i.e. each ball in the rack touches the balls next to it) is, after all, a BCA requirement. Let players aspire to break like Corey, not to rack like the local rack mechanic.

Steve

Barbara
03-28-2002, 04:30 PM
Spiderman,

The book you're alluding to is Joe Tucker's "Racking Secrets". Go to www.hillhill.com (http://www.hillhill.com) - you may be able to order it there if it's in stock.

Barbara

03-28-2002, 04:43 PM
I can see where you're coming from and I do agree with your assessment to the extent that it's all about learning how to work with what you are given. Truth be known, Corey isn't the first person to learn how to soft break the Sardo rack, he's one of many, and he won't be the last.

As far as the rack mechanics go out there...yep, I agree that it can get out of hand sometimes. However, even a tight rack that is done by hand doesn't have to have the same tension between balls. I think one of the most beautiful (and important) parts of the game is the human element. Take away human interaction with the equipment and you are getting closer to a computer game.

The problem with any standardized rack like the Sardo is that once you learn how to maximize your percentages, there's no more to learn, no more challenge...you just get to do the same thing over and over again. That's not pool. That's pinball.

Fran

Ralph S.
03-28-2002, 05:24 PM
Fran, it is very good to see you posting once again. Please continue as I am sure the majority if not all of us miss your insight and what you have to offer.
Ralph S.

JimS
03-28-2002, 05:38 PM
My experience has been that it's not at hillhill. Email Joe at ne10ball@cox.net

stickman
03-28-2002, 05:44 PM
www.roadplayer.com/JTProLessons.asp (http://www.roadplayer.com/JTProLessons.asp)

I was on the site yesterday, but can't get on today. Maybe server problems.

Doctor_D
03-28-2002, 08:26 PM
Good evening:

I agree completely with you on this one. Fran is a very valuable member of our CCB family.

Dr. D.

03-28-2002, 10:19 PM
Spiderman...I have a book on reading racks, it wasn't all I thought it would be but I have to admit that part of the reason is that to study a rack in our local atmosphere usually has the friendly opponent courteously asking, "Did I leave something loose, should I re-rack?" That routine made me sort of self conscious of peering into racks here in Dallas league play. You're welcome to borrow the book, and maybe you'll produce a renewed interest in me if you find positives worth pursuing...sid

Gayle in MD
03-28-2002, 10:40 PM
Welcomee back Fran. I'm happy to see you posting once again,
Take care
Gayle in Md.

TomBrooklyn
03-28-2002, 11:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> ...one of the most beautiful (and important) parts of the game is the human element. Take away human interaction with the equipment and you are getting closer to a computer game.

The problem with any standardized rack like the Sardo is that once you learn how to maximize your percentages, there's no more to learn, no more challenge...you just get to do the same thing over and over again. That's not pool. That's pinball.<hr></blockquote>I agree with your contention that knowledge of racking and breaking techniques is an intrinsic and strategic part of the game. Somewhat as an aside, however, I feel obliged to object to your pinball analogy as being flawed. I am a former approximately "A" level pinball player from years ago when I was a regular at Palisades Amusement Park's Sportland. Understandably, most people have no way of knowing how "good" pinball is played, as vitually all public pinball machines are improperly set up to provide good play. Even at Palisades Amusement Park, a pinball mecca, only one concession provided machines suitable for advanced play; the rest were attractions for unwitting tourists. They might be compared to improperly set up or poorly maintained bar boxes. Pinball actually has a lot of "feel" associated with it; and involves the ability to constantly discern and take advantage of particular quirks that develop individually on each machine and within it's various parts. It may actually be more similar to reading a hand rack than it is to the unvarying Sardo. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Vagabond
03-29-2002, 12:10 AM
Hello Mates,
When I am on the road if my opponent tries to screw me with a ``Mud Rack``,I screw him back with my ``special Mud Buster`` break.The worst racks(crooked)I have seen were from boys from Wayne county,West Virginia
Vagabond

03-29-2002, 12:48 AM
Hi Tom,

I'm sure someone could come up with a better analogy other than pinball than I did.

But I was just thinking...on the advanced level you're speaking of, once you get to know a particular pinball machine, then it is kinda like playing with a standardized rack. Sure, you still have to feel the shot when you execute, same with pool.

Speaking of pinball...that Microsoft space cadet pinball game has me nutz. There's supposed to be 8 levels...I'll be damned if I can get past 3.

Fran (junior space cadet)

03-29-2002, 01:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I think one of the most beautiful (and important) parts of the game is the human element. Take away human interaction with the equipment and you are getting closer to a computer game.

Fran <hr></blockquote>

Fran:

I agree that the human element in any game is the most interesting and important feature of the game. It is why we play and watch the game! Perhaps a return to 14.1 as the championship game would be the best cure for the problem posed by the Sardo rack.

Steve

Q-guy
03-29-2002, 01:58 AM
You are 150% right. I have sat and watched matches where the breaker had the guy re-racking and corner balls were out. There was almost a guarantee of one of the corner balls going, and he is calling for a re-rack. As long as the 1-ball is frozen to the second two balls, once I take a look I am probably accepting the rack.

SPetty
03-29-2002, 10:03 AM
After reading the Racking Secrets book, I had to get close to the rack in order to inspect it through my bifocals, and started getting accused of "smelling the rack"!

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Sid Vicious:</font><hr> Spiderman...I have a book on reading racks, it wasn't all I thought it would be but I have to admit that part of the reason is that to study a rack in our local atmosphere usually has the friendly opponent courteously asking, "Did I leave something loose, should I re-rack?" That routine made me sort of self conscious of peering into racks here in Dallas league play. You're welcome to borrow the book, and maybe you'll produce a renewed interest in me if you find positives worth pursuing...sid <hr></blockquote>