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Qtec
06-05-2003, 02:26 AM
TRUE OR FALSE ?
The jump shot was introduced by somebody who couldnt play pool. He was so big and mean, nobody dared to argue .
If you are allowed to jump balls, why dont you just put a net across the table and call it ping pong. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Isnt it against the "SPIRIT" of the game ?
Qtec.

Snyder1
06-05-2003, 05:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> TRUE OR FALSE ?
The jump shot was introduced by somebody who couldnt play pool. He was so big and mean, nobody dared to argue .
If you are allowed to jump balls, why dont you just put a net across the table and call it ping pong. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Isnt it against the "SPIRIT" of the game ?
Qtec.
<hr /></blockquote>

Its funny ... thats exactly my Dads take on the subject. Back in his day (1950's) , if you tried a masse or jump shot, you would be shown the door before the ball stopped rolling. I'm marginal at best at both, but it kills him when I make a masse shot - LOL ...

JS

cheesemouse
06-05-2003, 05:28 AM
Qtec,

One can hold any opinion they wish about the Jump Stick but one relevent fact remains.....IT IS STUPID TO GO TO A GUN FIGHT WITH ONLY A KNIFE... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

pooljunkie73
06-05-2003, 05:34 AM
I agree with Cheesemouse,if it's within the rules you would be crazy not having all the weapons. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Qtec
06-05-2003, 05:49 AM
If its allowed , of course you should use it. I am sure there is an art to it. Its not allowed in any other cue sport i,m aware of. A masse is different because the ball goes round and not over.If i play a great safety and the guy jumps out of it, i feel a little cheated.Know what i mean.
Qtec

cheesemouse
06-05-2003, 06:13 AM
Qtec,

[ QUOTE ]
I am sure there is an art to it. <hr /></blockquote>

You can take this statement to the bank. It is easy to loft the cueball over ob's with a jump stick but the 'artists' have taken it to a higher level; it is now used as an all out offensive weapon. When the whisle blows you better be well armed.

If the jumpstick or jumps with a regular cue were allowed in snooker it would not be long before the perfect 147 was had as a result of a well executed air assault and the stuffy crowd would cheer...LOL

eg8r
06-05-2003, 06:31 AM
This is Earl's argument quite often. He does not mind if you use your playing cue, but he gets hell bent if you pull out the jump cue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Fred Agnir
06-05-2003, 07:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> TRUE OR FALSE ?
The jump shot was introduced by somebody who couldnt play pool. He was so big and mean, nobody dared to argue .
If you are allowed to jump balls, why dont you just put a net across the table and call it ping pong. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Isnt it against the "SPIRIT" of the game ?
Qtec.
<hr /></blockquote>False. Jump shots were allowed in Billiards long before pool was invented. Not that anyone ever jumps in Billiards.

Fred

Fred Agnir
06-05-2003, 07:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Its not allowed in any other cue sport i,m aware of. <hr /></blockquote>Reverse this. The English cue sports are the only ones that don't allow jump shots.

Fred

Deeman
06-05-2003, 09:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> This is Earl's argument quite often. He does not mind if you use your playing cue, but he gets hell bent if you pull out the jump cue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

I may get "jumped" here, but I agree with Earl. The jump cue has allowed less skilled players to get out of jam up safeties that they could never kick their way out of. Now, I use a jump cue because I would be foolish to give someone else that advantage but I think it was a better game when we had to use normal sticks to jump.

eg8r
06-05-2003, 09:43 AM
Agreed. LOL, However like yourself, I do use my jump cue when I cannot kick out.

eg8r

SpiderMan
06-05-2003, 10:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> This is Earl's argument quite often. He does not mind if you use your playing cue, but he gets hell bent if you pull out the jump cue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

I may get "jumped" here, but I agree with Earl. The jump cue has allowed less skilled players to get out of jam up safeties that they could never kick their way out of. Now, I use a jump cue because I would be foolish to give someone else that advantage but I think it was a better game when we had to use normal sticks to jump. <hr /></blockquote>

It's just a matter of perspective. For example, it could just as easily be said that outlawing jump cues would reward players that don't play superb defense. Do they really deserve ball-in-hand if they can't lock the cue ball up really close?

Personally I feel that a "one game one cue" rule wouldn't be bad, but again it's a matter of perspective and each player probably has opinions about whether they would get an advantage from it.

Sometimes I just don't understand the controversy ... shaft-only jumps were legal for years, and you can get over a ball a lot closer with a shaft than with a 40" jump cue. I think it's the fact that people are actually practicing the shot and getting good at it, and the players that see this negating something they have worked on (kicking, etc) are bitching. Maybe I should complain about the guys that masse (or kick, break, etc) too well.

SpiderMan

Deeman
06-05-2003, 01:10 PM
Spiderman,

I agree that it's either one thing over another (safety play vs. jumping ability) but feel that it's pretty easy (at least for me) to become a good jumper with a short cue. Maybe I'm wrong, but it sure seems easier to learn how to jump than taking years to develop a strong defensive game. Again, as I have learned to jump, it's not a threat or a practical problem for me but it does change the game and makes it easier for less skilled players to get out of a tight spot. That may be good or bad but it makes a very high level skill (safety play) much less valuable.

If they ever invent a tip that will not miscue and a device that beeps if your cue gets out of plane, I would buy it to keep up with the Jones. However, I still think I would get a little concerned that everyone after that came along would not have to make the same investment in the game that we did. Maybe that's a selfish thing but I still like the fact that pro baseball players still have to use wooden bats!

Dee, awaiting the cam powered, steam driven power cue.

Popcorn
06-05-2003, 03:40 PM
As you know there was a time when players played two foul push out. It was played several ways, but it's intent was to take out the lucky leave from the game. It also allowed a little cat and mouse play between the players. When the one foul came out most all players hated it. The first time I heard of it was Johnston City. The Jansco brothers may have invented it, I don't know. Anyway, some of the problems with one foul were and still are, it allowed a less skilled player to play a successful safe. Does that sound familiar, "less skilled"? The major problem is the penalty is too great. A guy rolls you behind a ball and may win the game as a result. With good players, you can't give up ball in hand, it means an automatic loss. Even if you kick and hit the ball, and in most cases you can't really do much, maybe try to catch one side of the ball and hope for a tough leave, but again with good players, you probably lose. The argument that players need to perfect their kicking game doesn't hold water. The skill required to make a successful kick is much higher then the skill required to just stop the cueball behind a ball for a safe. For that matter, the guy can just miss and leave you safe and kicking, that took no skill at all. One foul as it is currently played sucks anyway. Now as for the jump cue and shot, it is far from an automatic shot, but it is at least is some help in coping the one foul B.S. part of the game. The guy may actually try to get out, instead of attempting to win on a Cheap safe that just may present itself and was not even be part of any master plan. You want to make it even, How about if any time you safe me and I hit the kick, you lose, because that is what happens to me if I don't hit the kick. The jump cue adds a lot more to the overall play of the game, it evens out some of the B.S. in the one foul game. Before we start worrying about the jump cue, we need to fix the current rules to reflect a true championship game. Could you imagine such rules in other sports? We are both on the green and if I miss my putt, you get to move your ball closer to the hole, people would think we were nuts, yet they think ball in hand for world class players is OK. Just my opinion.

Sid_Vicious
06-05-2003, 03:48 PM
"If i play a great safety and the guy jumps out of it, i feel a little cheated"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Maybe you needed to "play a greater" safety, a lockup from Satan himself, and then the jumper would be outta luck...sid

SpiderMan
06-05-2003, 04:10 PM
Dee,

Good points obviously. Still, if you feel it's reasonably easy to learn to jump with a 40" cue, wouldn't you agree it's easier still to get over a ball with a shaft jump? That's been legal for a long time. The current equipment rules are more strict than before, not less so, therefore there must be a deeper reason than equipment for the jumping controversy.

Did you see Popcorn's post? He reminded us of something I hadn't really thought about, ie the first time I ever saw 9-ball played you could push out anytime. Things were in a different balance back then, now one-foul ball-in-hand swings things more in the defensive direction and the increase in jumping activity is one response.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
06-05-2003, 04:12 PM
Popcorn,

That's actually the best rationale I've heard for the current popularity of jumping. I'd forgotten that you used to be able to roll out anytime, I never played a game of 9-ball back then. See my response to Deeman.

SpiderMan

Deeman
06-06-2003, 06:41 AM
Popcorn and Spiderman:

I do see both your points. I do remember when all 9 ball was open push out, and was for many years (the Jansco boys didn't invent it, road players did). Maybe jumping with anything is the fairest, I don't know. I didn't see much of the shaft jumping as I lived in Europe while that was going on. Hey, it's much easier for me to keep jumping with a short cue so I won't complain about it too much. I know some safes are easier to play that some jump shots but most open table safes are very difficult to do well. What maybe bothers an old fart like me, as silly as it sounds, is that it is a real challenge (as I remember) to learn to jump well with a regulation cue. I go to VF and see Robin getting people to jump over multible balls in ten minutes. So, just maybe, it's the 51 year old crumedgeon in me wanting the game to be difficult to achieve for everyone. It also just might be simply me looking back at the open roll out era with fondness. After all, all us old guys gotta have something we can look back on and claim, think, wish, it was simply better then than now!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Learning to live with the jump cue....

Tom_In_Cincy
06-06-2003, 08:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
After all, all us old guys gotta have something we can look back on and claim, think, wish, it was simply better then than now!!!
<hr /></blockquote>

So true Deeman, So TRUE.
Tap, Tap, TAP.

Can you imagine using a jump cue in a one pocket game? or 14.1?

How about BIH for 14.1 on any foul? or maybe stopping play and restarting the game from the break, in One Pocket, if more than half the balls are in the kitchen?

Why not let your opponent play Virtual pool any you play REAL pool?

Qtec
06-06-2003, 08:52 AM
The only 9 ball i know is the one foul BIH. I would like to know what the other version is, please.
Here in Europe ,just about everybody has their own rules. Most of these rules[mainly 8 ball] are based either on cost or as a sort of handicap for the better player.
EG. If you are playing on a coin table and you play 9 ball,its in your own interest for the game to go on as long as possible.
Just a thought.
Qtec

SpiderMan
06-06-2003, 08:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Can you imagine using a jump cue in a one pocket game? or 14.1?

<hr /></blockquote>

HaHa, reminds me of last year at Xmas when Chopstick and I were both home for the holidays in Memphis. We were playing one-pocket on an 8-footer at Click's east (same night we got screwed on that tab, from another thread) and he left me frozen to the side rail about an inch up from my pocket.

I was looking at a frozen combination into my hole, but from the wrong side. I pulled out my frog, jumped over the combo to hit the other side rail, and kicked it in. He grumbled all night "nobody uses a frog in one-pocket". He was taking lessons from Grady in SC at the time, and I think he went and complained to him about it also. I could have played a decent safe by hitting the nearest ball, which would have herded both up-table (one would go two rails and the other one rail), but I thought what I did was just funnier.

SpiderMan

Tom_In_Cincy
06-06-2003, 09:07 AM
Old style 9 ball (up until the late 1970s early 80s) was a 'two shot foul' BIH only.

If you were shooting and left yourself hooked (blocked from shooting the lowest numbered ball on the table), you had the option of a "roll out" you could 'roll' the cue ball (like the present 'push' shot) to anywhere on the table.

The non-shooting player had the option of playing the table as is or letting you shoot again. If you fouled making an attempt at hitting the object ball, or failed to meet the rules of a good hit, your opponent got ball in hand.

All balls spotted up (in playing order, lowest number closest to the spot).

Cue ball scratch, was BIH in the kitchen. If the lowest numbered ball was in the kitchen, it was spotted up. Some rules allowed for this ball to be raked (taken off the table) and then you would shoot at the lowest numbered ball outside the kitchen. If there were multiple balls in the kitchen (i.e. 2,3,4) and the 5 were outside the kitchen, all balls below the 5 in the kitchen were raked.

If you scrated making the 8 ball, your opponent got BIH in the kitchen with the 8 ball on the spot.

If you scratched on the 8 ball and the 8 was in the kitchen, the 8 would be spotted. (lots of players practiced spot shots a lot because of this very common occurance).

Tom_In_Cincy
06-06-2003, 09:14 AM
Spiderman,
I have never seen anyone even attempt a jump in one pocket. But I have to admit, I have been tempted.

Funny story.. I would love to have seen his face when you made that shot...

heater451
06-06-2003, 10:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> . . .Did you see Popcorn's post? He reminded us of something I hadn't really thought about, ie the first time I ever saw 9-ball played you could push out anytime. Things were in a different balance back then, now one-foul ball-in-hand swings things more in the defensive direction and the increase in jumping activity is one response.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>Popcorn's view makes a lot of sense, but I would still argue the "it should be a skill" side.

He tries to downplay the ability to play safe with a simple stop shot, as not taking any skill. Well, even though it takes less skill, than, say a three-rail hide down table, it has some requirements: 1) You have to have the mindset/training to 'see' the safe opportunity (yes, I know this is still pretty easy. . .), and 2) You still have to hit the shot, with a "normal" playing cue.

That's the major difference--Any type of safe shot, requires the player to make the shot by knowledge and touch, whereas a using a jumpshot puts more of the 'skill' into the equipment--even allowing for the fact that you still have to learn a technique, and aim well, the special stick/tip get the ball in the air.

Now, let me ask this. . . .If jumpsticks are allowed, should something like the Snipercue (http://www.lobo-international.com/Snipercue.com/snipercue/Introduction.html) be allowed? (Nevermind the existing rules specifically about 'aiming devices'.)

Drawing a parallel with the jumpstick's skill requirement, the Snipercue would allow more precise aiming, but the player still needs the ability to stroke correctly to complete the shot. One argument might be that the Sniper replaces the ability to aim, but the human skill is used to shoot--well, I would counter that the jumpstick replaces the ability to 'get air', but the shooting still relies on the player.

And, why shouldn't the same sports-minded thinking that disallows "Big Bertha" drivers and corked bats, apply to jump cues?




=============================

SpiderMan
06-06-2003, 10:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> Now, let me ask this. . . .If jumpsticks are allowed, should something like the Snipercue (http://www.lobo-international.com/Snipercue.com/snipercue/Introduction.html) be allowed? (Nevermind the existing rules specifically about 'aiming devices'.)

Drawing a parallel with the jumpstick's skill requirement, the Snipercue would allow more precise aiming, but the player still needs the ability to stroke correctly to complete the shot. One argument might be that the Sniper replaces the ability to aim, but the human skill is used to shoot--well, I would counter that the jumpstick replaces the ability to 'get air', but the shooting still relies on the player.

And, why shouldn't the same sports-minded thinking that disallows "Big Bertha" drivers and corked bats, apply to jump cues?




============================= <hr /></blockquote>

One point I've tried to make a few times is that I don't think the jumping controversy is so much about equipment, it's really just about the activity.

You aren't seeing all these special jump cues because they are "allowed", you're seeing them because they are "required". Until 5 or 6 years ago, you could go to BCA nationals and execute a jump shot with just your shaft. Then along comes the 40-inch-minimum requirement and an industry is born. But I guarantee that if you roll back the clock on the rule set, I can jump out of a closer lock using a shaft than using any of the current "jump cues".

SpiderMan

Sid_Vicious
06-06-2003, 10:24 AM
I jump well, and own more than one jump cue, but having said that, I would still not grumble if forcing the player to use his full length play cue for jumps was the rule. I jumped fairly well with the long stick before the JCs came in the mail. I don't really feel that shaft jumps are the way to go though. I've seen balls 1-2 inches away jumped that way, and there IS something wrong with that IMO..sid

heater451
06-06-2003, 11:30 AM
Ah, I see where you're coming from with the concept vs. equipment argument.

I re-read your prior post, and wanted to address part of it:
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> . . .Still, if you feel it's reasonably easy to learn to jump with a 40" cue, wouldn't you agree it's easier still to get over a ball with a shaft jump? That's been legal for a long time. The current equipment rules are more strict than before, not less so, therefore there must be a deeper reason than equipment for the jumping controversy. . . .<hr /></blockquote>I think we would need to know the train of logic, leading up to the specifics of the requirement (40" length).

I'm thinking that a 40" cue could still be considered a "full" cue, because it could be considered a cue that a child might use, as opposed to just a shaft. Could/Would anyone shoot a full game with a shaft only?

After that, I might keep equipment-targeted arguments about jump sticks centered around special tips.

BTW, if it meets the 40" requirement, is the aluminum tube, rubber-gripped, jump "rod" allowed by the rules? (If it is, then all arguments go out the window. . . .)

==================

06-06-2003, 11:48 AM
I am all for one cue per game, you do everything with it. No shortcuts. Let your skill and that one stick play the game and not any extra equipment.

smfsrca
06-06-2003, 12:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Cheap safe that just may present itself and was not even be part of any master plan. You want to make it even, How about if any time you safe me and I hit the kick, you lose, because that is what happens to me if I don't hit the kick.<hr /></blockquote>
You are absolutely correct. Especially for a three foul loss situation, which is usually opportunistic and the reward is much greater than the risk.
I would suggest that the safety player has to give up the equivalent of what he is getting. If the miss will give the opponent ball-in-hand, a make will give the shooter the same. If the miss will give the apponent a win a make should give the shooter the same.

On the other hand, 9 ball characteristically offers rewards and penalties which are not proportional to the risk. That is one of the appeals of the game.

Fred Agnir
06-06-2003, 01:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> I think we would need to know the train of logic, leading up to the specifics of the requirement (40" length).<hr /></blockquote>The conspiracy theorists say that the rulez determined 40" lengths because... Bob Meucci was well into mass producing the New (at the time) jump cue handle which was about 10". His voice must have been pretty loud.

Fred &lt;~~~ should have bought one for posterity

Deeman
06-06-2003, 01:31 PM
Fred,

I have one of those exact 10" Meucci models and am not all that attached to it. Bob actually gave it to my, at that time, 6 year old daughter to use as her regular cue! She is now a 26 year old lawyer in Chatanooga.