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Wally_in_Cincy
06-05-2003, 12:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> <font color="blue">strawman </font color>

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<font color="blue">strawman </font color>

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<font color="blue">strawman </font color>

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<font color="blue">strawman </font color> <hr /></blockquote>With all sincerity, what's "strawman" mean? <hr /></blockquote>

I think "strawman" is similar in meaning to "red herring"

HTH /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

MikeM
06-05-2003, 01:59 PM
Strawman: this fallacy creates its own issues and then attacks or refutes these rather than addressing the issue of the core argument. Also refers to the issue created.

MM

SPetty
06-05-2003, 05:30 PM
Thanks, guys. I looked up "Red Herring" and found this, which seems to match what MikeM says:

Also Known as: Smoke Screen, Wild Goose Chase.

Description of Red Herring
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

Topic A is under discussion.
Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
Topic A is abandoned.

Nightstalker
06-05-2003, 06:05 PM
Kind of like the old "bait and switch" scam. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

jjinfla
06-05-2003, 07:15 PM
Strawman is a third party to a contract who has no legal standing in the contract. A red herring is a false clue intended to lead you away from the target.

Fred Agnir
06-06-2003, 07:07 AM
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

http://daltonator.net/durandal/creationism/fallacies.shtml

Normally, a Strawman attack has some form of misrepresentation mixed in with a mocking tone.

E.g. " Just because you'd go following any war monger happily off a bridge doesn't mean the rest of us would be so inclined."

The argument is an obvious misrepresentation, and certainly mocks the opponent's debate stance.

Here's another:

"All of you fantasy world champion wannabes continue on using your beloved ghost ball, while the rest of the real pros know and utilize the secrets of the game. That's why they're pros, afterall."

Now that's a strawman, mixed in with a sprinkle of "Appeal to Authority."

How 'bout this gem:
"For years, you scientist-types thought the world was flat and that bumblebees couldn't fly."

Of course, if anything, it was the scientists that were convinced the world wasn't flat, and were the ones interested in how a bumblebee flies.

Is the statement "angle in, angle out crap" a strawman? I don't see it. It's a related opinion, which itself could be debated.

Fred &lt;~~~ knows a strawman when he speaks it.

heater451
06-06-2003, 10:16 AM
It's also a Lou Reed song, off the "New York" album:

Strawman

We who have so much to you who have so little to you who don't have anything at all
We who have so much more than any one man does need and you who don't have anything at all, ah
Does anybody need another million dollar movie
Does anybody need another million dollar star
Does anybody need to be told over and over
spitting in the wind comes back at you twice as hard

Strawman, going straight to the devil
Strawman, going straight to hell
Strawman, going straight to the devil
Strawman, Strawman
Strawman, Strawman, yes

Does anyone really need a billion dollar rocket
Does anyone need a $60,000 car
Does anyone need another President
or the sins of Swaggart parts 6, 7, 8, and 9, ah
Does anyone need another politician
caught with his pants down money sticking in his hole
Does anyone need another racist preacher
spittin' in the wind can only do you harm, wow

Strawman, going straight to the devil
Strawman, going straight to hell
Strawman, going straight to the devil
Strawman, Strawman
Strawman, Strawman

Does anyone need another faulty shuttle
blasting off to the Moon, Venus or Mars
Does anyone need another self-righteous rock and roll singer
whose nose he says has led him straight to God
Does anyone need yet another blank skyscraper
If you're like me I'm sure a minor miracle will do
A flaming sword or maybe a gold ark floating up the Hudson
When you spit in the wind it comes right back at you

Strawman, going straight to the devil
Strawman, going straight to hell
Strawman, going straight to the devil
Strawman, Strawman, Strawman
Strawman, Strawman



--Sorry, when I read "strawman", Lou kicked off in my head. . . .
============================

WesK
06-06-2003, 10:27 AM
That's what I always thought too.

As a gun owner, I frequently hear the term "Strawman" used in conjunction with illegal firearms purchases. That is, someone (the strawman) purchaces a firearm for someone else (who may or may not legally purchase one).

This is what Merriam-Webster has to say:

Main Entry: straw man
Function: noun
Date: 1896
1 : a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted
2 : a person set up to serve as a cover for a usually questionable transaction

wes

jjinfla
06-06-2003, 11:01 AM
Fred, The old bumblebee story. First heard about it around 1956. Of course the scientists knew that the bumblebee could fly. Afterall, they kept getting stung. But according to all the scientific methods of proof they always came to the result that it was impossible for the bumblebee to fly. Those itty bitty wings just can not generate enough lift for that great big body. I never did hear if all that was just phony folklore, hoax, or actually true. Jake

Fred Agnir
06-06-2003, 11:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Fred, The old bumblebee story. First heard about it around 1956. Of course the scientists knew that the bumblebee could fly. Afterall, they kept getting stung. But according to all the scientific methods of proof they always came to the result that it was impossible for the bumblebee to fly. Those itty bitty wings just can not generate enough lift for that great big body. I never did hear if all that was just phony folklore, hoax, or actually true. Jake <hr /></blockquote>

http://www.maa.org/mathland/mathland_3_31.html

http://ltp.arc.nasa.gov/aero/team/fjournals/wellman/bumblebee.html
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/March00/APS_Wang.hrs.html


If anyone knows why a bumblebee or any insect flies, it's those pesky scientists.

Fred

heater451
06-06-2003, 11:38 AM
From the Dec 2002 Popular Science Magazine (and on-line):

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/article/0,12543,396553-1,00.html



========================

jjinfla
06-06-2003, 01:06 PM
How did we ever get by before the internet?

And of course there is the challenge among master tool and die makers and design engineers. The master tool and die maker boasted that he can build anything that the design engineer can draw. And thus was the Tri-conometric something or other put on paper. Jake