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Qtec
06-08-2003, 09:54 PM
Consider this;
START(
%Am1G8%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pm0Q8%Qp5A6%Rp7D7%W p7C4%Xm2G7
%Yl4J4%Zm0Q8%[r9C8%\m2G8
)END

A beginner attempts to to pot the 1B, but keeps hitting the OB too thick [ A ]. The guy on the next table gives a bit of advice.
"Play the same shot but this time use a little IE."
The beginner does this and ,lo and behold, pots the 1B [ B]

What has actually happened here?

Qtec

arn3
06-08-2003, 11:55 PM
the beginner has changed the line of aim. if he is aiming with the inside of the cb, the cb is not hitting the ob as fully as it was before.

the suggested way of shooting the break shot makes no sense to me because the shooter needs to use low outside english to break the rack. in fact i'd say 7:30 or 8:00 english, and the cb should hit close to the third diamond.

it would be better to use low outside and aim with it, rather than use IE

Deniel
06-09-2003, 02:32 AM
Well one possibility is since the beginner use IE the QB is deflected to the left (D line) from it's original path (C Line) and hit the OB at the correct spot.

Deniel ~~beginner himself

Deniel
06-09-2003, 02:34 AM
START(
%Am1G8%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pm0Q8%Qp6A2%Rp7D7%S l6K9%Tj8I4
%Ul1I1%Vl8P7%Wp7C4%Xm2G7%Yl7I4%Zm0Q8%[r9C8%\m2G8%eC1a4
)END

HalSmith
06-09-2003, 03:52 AM
I have to go along the other two post . The shooter probably did a little of both and the throw of the IE helped achieve the results.---Smitty

arn3
06-09-2003, 04:35 AM
at that short distance from cb to ob, i think the deflection is negligable. and using IE, he would be throwing the ob the opposite of where he wants the ob to go. IE, if it has any affect, throws the ob short of the pocket, not into the pocket.

the best way i can describe it without a diagram is this,,,,suppose you line up a straight in shot. your cue would be centered on the cb and aiming center on the ob. the line of aim is straight through the centers of both balls. now, move the cue to either side of center on the cb and continue to aim center on the ob. this is what beginner was told to do - maintain the same aimpoint on the ob, but change the hit on the cb. you see now that your line of aim has changed. it is no longer center to center, it is now at an angle, from one side of the cb to center on the ob.

Fred Agnir
06-09-2003, 07:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Consider this;
START(
%Am1G8%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pm0Q8%Qp5A6%Rp7D7%W p7C4%Xm2G7
%Yl4J4%Zm0Q8%[r9C8%\m2G8
)END

A beginner attempts to to pot the 1B, but keeps hitting the OB too thick [ A ]. The guy on the next table gives a bit of advice.
"Play the same shot but this time use a little IE."
The beginner does this and ,lo and behold, pots the 1B [ B]

What has actually happened here?

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>Squirt.

Fred

Fred Agnir
06-09-2003, 07:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr> at that short distance from cb to ob, i think the deflection is negligable.<hr /></blockquote> I would disagree. IMO, squirt is the only thing that's not negligible in the shot described.

[ QUOTE ]
and using IE, he would be throwing the ob the opposite of where he wants the ob to go. IE, if it has any affect, throws the ob short of the pocket, not into the pocket.<hr /></blockquote>I would suggest to not consider throw (spin-induced throw) as important as you may have originally thought.

This is the exact proof shot that shows the importance of squirt adjustment without much thought whatsoever to spin-induced throw. The classic firm inside-english shot.

Fred

HalSmith
06-09-2003, 07:17 AM
My mistake had my inside outside all screwed up. So I guess you have to say it was squirt like the other post said. Hell it has to be something, unless he just aimed right that time .---Smitty

Fred Agnir
06-09-2003, 07:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HalSmith:</font><hr> Hell it has to be something, unless he just aimed right that time .---Smitty <hr /></blockquote>LOL!! That's probably it. Ockham's Razor and all that.

Fred

Fran Crimi
06-09-2003, 07:53 AM
As Fred said, the CB will squirt to the outside of the ob. That's bad advice to give to a beginner though, because it brings three new variables into the equation that the beginner has little or no knowledge about, which are cb speed, tip placement and cue stick angle of attack. They all have to coincide perfectly in order for the cb to squirt the perfect amount required to make the shot.

If the beginner consistently missed the shot full, then IMO it would be better to work on aiming thinner on the shot with center ball and facing whatever psychological demon is causing the player to hold back on the cut rather than use cb squirt to try to compensate.

Fran

arn3
06-09-2003, 02:59 PM
welllll,,,,of ie i said "IF it has any affect", answering hal's assumption that it did.:)

arn3
06-09-2003, 03:04 PM
fred,,,,you think it's squirt and NOT a change in his line of aim that made the diff?

[quote=Fred Agnir"Play the same shot but this time use a little IE."
The beginner does this and ,lo and behold, pots the 1B [ B]

What has actually happened here?

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>Squirt.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

tateuts
06-09-2003, 05:20 PM
Sorry, I don't buy that squirt explains it. I can achieve the same effect by having the player put draw on the ball.

Qtec
06-09-2003, 06:07 PM
What effect do you mean?
Qtec.

caedos
06-09-2003, 06:12 PM
I'll vote with Fred and Fran on this one. Squirt will definitely produce that result. If the player is initially shooting the object ball into the rail, the path of the cue ball's center may originally be aimed at the contact point. If no other part of the shot is changed, putting IE (right sidespin)will squirt the cue ball off the original line and to the left. In this case, the shooter made the ball.

If all angles and speeds are the same as the original shot, no amount of vertical spin (follow, draw, or stop(non-spin)) will alter the resulting line of the object ball in favor of pocketing the ball. You might even put the object ball into the rail even more with some collision-induced throw.

tateuts
06-09-2003, 07:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> What effect do you mean?
Qtec. <hr /></blockquote>

The effect of correcting the aim. Cut shots hit with draw tend to cause the object ball to overcut. I don't know why.

Another way to correct the aim, believe it or not, is to have the player look at the right hand side of the object ball when they shoot this shot.

Chris

06-09-2003, 08:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr>Wow, I'm learning a lot. I didn't know that squirt and colliosion induced throw have much impact on a one foot shot. I don't miss too many of these.<hr /></blockquote>I would argue that squirt is most significant on short shots. On longer shots the spinning of the CB compensates for the squirt by bringing the CB back towards the line of aim. I'm guessing that the CB squirts most from the line of aim probably a several inches from the cuetip contact point, depending on all those magic factors that (arguably) cause squirt -- amount of english, speed of hit, tip-end mass, shaft deflection, moon phase, or whatever other theory you subscribe to. Fred can chime in here if he cares to with more exact info, as he is the resident CCB scholar on the subject. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And as far as collision induced throw (CIT) goes, the distance of the shot should have no relevance whatsoever, given the same CB speed at the moment of OB contact. CIT is most signficant from softer shots. Hard shots reduce throw significantly, to the point of practically eliminating it, at least that what I've always been taught.

So to sum up, I can easily imagine that squirt would be more significant on a one foot shot than on, say, a five foot shot, with CIT being equally significant regardless of distance, given equal CB speed at contact.

Given all that, I would agree with Fred that squirt was the most likely cause of this "correction."

Edit: Whoa, tateuts, did you delete your post? I spent all that time and energy replying, and then you go and delete it. Harumph... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

arn3
06-09-2003, 08:54 PM
that you perform this shot with IE, doing everything possible to eliminate deflection. first of all, the distance between cb and ob is already short. let's add a predator shaft, and shoot at a speed that impart as little deflection as possible.

so now we have negated the squirt to a miniscule amount. are you saying the that because there is now zero squirt that the ob will not be pocketed?

i believe when you "shoot the same shot", and by this, i interpret as meaning you are aiming to the same point(NOT THE CONTACT POINT, BUT AIM POINT) but use inside english delivery on the cb, you have changed the line of aim. i know i'm not explaining this right and it may be a matter of terms, but when i draw a diagram i know it is right. and i think i was right in my other explanation above.

Qtec
06-09-2003, 09:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'll vote with Fred and Fran on this one. Squirt will definitely produce that result. If the player is initially shooting the object ball into the rail, the path of the cue ball's center may originally be aimed at the contact point. If no other part of the shot is changed, putting IE (right sidespin)will squirt the cue ball off the original line and to the left. In this case, the shooter made the ball.

If all angles and speeds are the same as the original shot, no amount of vertical spin (follow, draw, or stop(non-spin)) will alter the resulting line of the object ball in favor of pocketing the ball. You might even put the object ball into the rail even more with some collision-induced throw.

<hr /></blockquote>

I agree. This is purley a question of squirt and aiming. The beginner does sometimes get mixed up by thinking that the point of contact and the point of aim are the same. The only time this is true is with a straight shot. In this example we can only assume that the beginner was in fact aiming correctly .The fact that the ball was potted using IE would seem to suggest this.
The proper way to help the beginner would be to find out what the problem really is and then take it from there.
The danger now is that the beginner might think that to pot balls ,English is needed.They will continue to pot all balls with E until they cant do it any other way. What originally was a minor aiming error has now become a major problem. This result of this quick fix advice,however well meaning, ultimately hasnt helped .
Before anyone starts using E they should be able to hit the CB IN A STRAIGHT LINE. This might sound easy but it isnt. To calculate where you want the CB to go you must know the natural angle . To know the natural angle you have to play the CB without E. If you cant you will never be sure where the CB is going.
In all sports you have to start with the basics. You can save yourself a lot of problems by taking a few lessons from a teacher or coach .
A player will tell you how HE plays the shot. A coach will tell you how YOU should play the shot.

Qtec

tateuts
06-09-2003, 09:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> Edit: Whoa, tateuts, did you delete your post? I spent all that time and energy replying, and then you go and delete it. Harumph... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I thought the part about the wind direction, phase of the moon, and time of the month might be taken in the wrong way.

You people have been reading too many Predator shaft ads...

tateuts
06-09-2003, 10:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> I would argue that squirt is most significant on short shots. On longer shots the spinning of the CB compensates for the squirt by bringing the CB back towards the line of aim. <hr /></blockquote>

This is exactly what I mean and the problem with these "theories". Maybe this makes sense to you, but it sure doesn't play out on the table, regardless of reason. Think about it for a minute. A hair thin cut shot with inside english from a foot is no sweat. From 8' it's damn near impossible. What am I missing here?

Chris

TonyM
06-09-2003, 10:54 PM
That's the whole point Arn3. The LINE of aim stays the same! But the actual CONTACT POINT on the object changes due to squirt.

The guy is aiming too thick. The obvious answer is to simply aim thinner. You have to hit a different contact point on the object ball.

By adding some inside english, the guy can use the same aim line, and hit the correct contact point.

And as Fran said, it's bad advice.

Yes, it temporarily solves the potting problem by allowing the player to sink the ball. But it will come back to bite him down the line.

It is far better to simply learn to aim thinner, then to "trick- in" the pot with the use of english imo.

Sometime down the road he is going to have to be able to make the shot with centerball, outside english AND inside english.

I prefer to teach potting angles with no english first, so that the change in aim line cause by squirt can be visualized for both inside AND outside english later.

Tony

TonyM
06-09-2003, 10:57 PM
This is a common misunderstanding about squirt imo. The distance between the balls doesn't effect the angle change due to squirt. Only the magnitude of the actual sideways displacement at the object ball contact point. You still have to compensate for squirt.

Suppose the guy had a cue with a very short pivot point?

The squirt could easily cause the change in direction observed.

And I agree, it could not be throw, as it is in the WRONG direction.

Tony

TonyM
06-09-2003, 11:06 PM
Let's take your question one step further.

Suppose I wave a magic wand and give the player a magic "zero squirt" cue (btw, a Predator is a low squirt cue, but by no means a zero squirt cue).

So now he aims the shot as per his misses, and then slides the entire cue sideways in a parallel fashion to add 1/2" of sidespin.

What happens?

He still misses the shot!

In fact, he misses it worse due to throw!

Btw, shifting the cue sideways, parallel to the original aim line DOES NOT change the original aim line! With zero squirt, the center of the cue ball will take the exact same path as it would with a center ball hit (assuming no swerve of course).

To make the shot uses IE, it REQUIRES a significant amount of squirt.

To compensate for squirt, you have to aim the cue at an ANGLE away from the center of the cue ball towards the direction of the applied english. You do not aim the cue on a parallel line.

This is the secret behind back hand english.

and btw, BHE would never work with a zero squirt cue.

It needs squirt to work.

Tony

TonyM
06-09-2003, 11:10 PM
"The effect of correcting the aim. Cut shots hit with draw tend to cause the object ball to overcut. I don't know why."

To some degree I think that you are correct.

The reason why is suggested in Ron Shepard's APAPP.

It is due to throw. Ron hypothesis is that throw is maximized with a stun shot (no top or bottom spin on the cue ball, ie: a sliding cue ball).

So if you apply a bit of draw, or a bit of follow to the cueball, you slightly increase the sliding surface speed of the cueball at the moment of contact, and slightly reduce the throw.

I think that this is correct, but the effect would not likely be large enough to correct for the poor aim in the case shown.

Tony

tateuts
06-09-2003, 11:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>Squirt.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

OK, Fred, you know more about squirt than I do.

But I have some pretty cool cases too. Justis, Swift, Fellini, George, Porper (tooled leather), Whitten and a couple I'm still trying to figure out who made them.

Do you think we need psychiatric help or is this normal?


Chris

tateuts
06-09-2003, 11:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> I agree. This is purley a question of squirt and aiming. The beginner does sometimes get mixed up by thinking that the point of contact and the point of aim are the same. The only time this is true is with a straight shot. In this example we can only assume that the beginner was in fact aiming correctly .The fact that the ball was potted using IE would seem to suggest this.
The proper way to help the beginner would be to find out what the problem really is and then take it from there.
The danger now is that the beginner might think that to pot balls ,English is needed.They will continue to pot all balls with E until they cant do it any other way. What originally was a minor aiming error has now become a major problem. This result of this quick fix advice,however well meaning, ultimately hasnt helped .
Before anyone starts using E they should be able to hit the CB IN A STRAIGHT LINE. This might sound easy but it isnt. To calculate where you want the CB to go you must know the natural angle . To know the natural angle you have to play the CB without E. If you cant you will never be sure where the CB is going.
In all sports you have to start with the basics. You can save yourself a lot of problems by taking a few lessons from a teacher or coach .
A player will tell you how HE plays the shot. A coach will tell you how YOU should play the shot.

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

Well gee, Q-Tip, if you knew the answer why did you ask the question?

Chris

arn3
06-10-2003, 01:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> ,,,,So now he aims the shot as per his misses, and then slides the entire cue sideways in a parallel fashion to add 1/2" of sidespin.

What happens?

He still misses the shot!

In fact, he misses it worse due to throw!

Btw, shifting the cue sideways, parallel to the original aim line DOES NOT change the original aim line!To make the shot uses IE, it REQUIRES a significant amount of squirt.
Tony <hr /></blockquote>

i see now the reason for our misunderstanding!!!:):):)

i was not suggesting parallel shift alignment. i was assuming that he was shifting to IE but still pointing his cue to the original point. the poster wrote "shoot the same as before but with inside english". i took "shoot the same" to mean aim at the same point(not contact point, but the point that the cue was originally pointing at) only use IE instead. and this why i think he pocketed the ball. not because of squirt but because he actually changed the line of the cb.

here's where i think you and fran are mistaken,,,,, i don't think a beginner would understand parallel shifting when he changes the contact point on his cb. i think a beginner would continue to aim at the same aim point as before. thus shifting his line of aim.

this is what i thought i explained(as best i could) in the above reply to halsmith. oh well /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif:)

Fred Agnir
06-10-2003, 06:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> You people have been reading too many Predator shaft ads...
<hr /></blockquote>Could be. But, on the other hand, I've been discussing squirt long before Predator was in existence. Maybe I'm a fortune teller?

Fred

Fred Agnir
06-10-2003, 06:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> I would argue that squirt is most significant on short shots. On longer shots the spinning of the CB compensates for the squirt by bringing the CB back towards the line of aim. <hr /></blockquote>

This is exactly what I mean and the problem with these "theories". Maybe this makes sense to you, but it sure doesn't play out on the table, regardless of reason. Think about it for a minute. A hair thin cut shot with inside english from a foot is no sweat. From 8' it's damn near impossible. What am I missing here?

Chris <hr /></blockquote>You're missing squirt, obviously. If you think it's "damn near impossible" at long lengths, why do you think that?

Fred

tateuts
06-10-2003, 09:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> I would argue that squirt is most significant on short shots. On longer shots the spinning of the CB compensates for the squirt by bringing the CB back towards the line of aim. <hr /></blockquote>

From 8' it's damn near impossible. What am I missing here?

Chris <hr /></blockquote>You're missing squirt, obviously. If you think it's "damn near impossible" at long lengths, why do you think that?

Fred
<hr /></blockquote>

Fred,

I'm talking about when the cue ball has to travel the length of the table with a lot of spin before making a very thin cut on an object ball. I don't know anyone who relishes this situation. If I'm using low inside english, I have to actually aim a couple of inches off the object ball to make this shot work.

Chris

Fred Agnir
06-10-2003, 09:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred:</font><hr>You're missing squirt, obviously. If you think it's "damn near impossible" at long lengths, why do you think that?

Fred
<hr /></blockquote>

Fred,

I'm talking about when the cue ball has to travel the length of the table with a lot of spin before making a very thin cut on an object ball. I don't know anyone who relishes this situation. If I'm using low inside english, I have to actually aim a couple of inches off the object ball to make this shot work.

Chris <hr /></blockquote>Ok, what are you compensating for? If you're hitting low inside, I assume you're compensating for swerve?

IMO, if you understand the concepts of swerve and squirt, a long inside english shot is no different (difficulty-wise) than a long outside english shot.

What do you think of this shot?
http://www.omniscium.com/pbsa/ShowShot.asp?ShotID=28


Fred &lt;~~~ aims off the pocket on many english shots

tateuts
06-10-2003, 11:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>Ok, what are you compensating for? If you're hitting low inside, I assume you're compensating for swerve?

IMO, if you understand the concepts of swerve and squirt, a long inside english shot is no different (difficulty-wise) than a long outside english shot.

What do you think of this shot?
http://www.omniscium.com/pbsa/ShowShot.asp?ShotID=28


Fred &lt;~~~ aims off the pocket on many english shots
<hr /></blockquote>

That's a pretty standard (but advanced) 9 Ball shot - center left hit it pretty firm, to drive the cue ball into the rail and the english runs it. I personally have to adjust my aim on this by just a hair, hit a little thinner on the object ball to compensate for the english, but it's not too bad. But in this case, I do not believe the cue ball swerves much because you are hitting it with enough speed for the english not to bite into the cloth.

I think we're talking about two different things. In the shot I'm talking about, with the cue ball traveling so far, with low inside, the cue ball bites and kills and the english takes, turning it in toward the object ball, like a masse. I can hit thin cuts all day from one foot with low inside, but from 8 feet the cue ball is defintely swerving and needs to be compensated for.

Chris

Fred Agnir
06-10-2003, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> What do you think of this shot?
http://www.omniscium.com/pbsa/ShowShot.asp?ShotID=28


Fred &lt;~~~ aims off the pocket on many english shots
<hr /></blockquote>

That's a pretty standard (but advanced) 9 Ball shot - center left hit it pretty firm, to drive the cue ball into the rail and the english runs it. I personally have to adjust my aim on this by just a hair, hit a little thinner on the object ball to compensate for the english, but it's not too bad. But in this case, I do not believe the cue ball swerves much because you are hitting it with enough speed for the english not to bite into the cloth.

I think we're talking about two different things. In the shot I'm talking about, with the cue ball traveling so far, with low inside, the cue ball bites and kills and the english takes, turning it in toward the object ball, like a masse. I can hit thin cuts all day from one foot with low inside, but from 8 feet the cue ball is defintely swerving and needs to be compensated for.

Chris <hr /></blockquote>This is not a "swerve compensation shot" for me. To get that much travel, I'm hitting this shot very firmly. No time for swerve to do much compared to squirt. You say you'd aim this thinner. I would never aim this anything but thicker. It is an advanced shot, IMO. And it's all squirt. Not swerve nor throw.

I'm guessing (just a guess) that if you think in terms of squirt first, swerve second, you might not consider your long inside english shots as impossible as you do now.

Fred &lt;~~~ waiting for the light bulb