PDA

View Full Version : The "Scott Lee" lesson *DELETED*



06-13-2003, 11:48 AM
Post deleted by amgine

Wally_in_Cincy
06-13-2003, 12:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote amgine:</font><hr> I read under the replies to "promotion of the game" that Scott Lee is upset about his being charged too much for giving a lesson in a particular pool room.

<font color="blue">I don't know who you are but I think you have lost your mind /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Why in the world should Scott be charged more for table time than anybody else? </font color>


..Number one, no lesson is worth $150,

<font color="blue">A lesson is worth what someone is willing to pay. Scott is a very good teacher and very professional. He squeezes a hell of a lot of instruction in 4 hours, videotapes it, and offers a money-back guarantee. </font color>

Number 2, is the fact that if a salesperson selling hot dogs came INTO the pool room and set up shop, the owner would not be happy...

<font color="blue">Apples and oranges </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

BTW Scott did not ask for free time. Just the normal rate.

eg8r
06-13-2003, 12:30 PM
Paragraphs please...... It is just easier to read.

eg8r

06-13-2003, 12:38 PM
Fine member, you miss the point. Mr. Lee is not being charged more for the table time. He is being charged a portion of the proceeds of the business he is running in this person's room. he has set up shop using someone else's overhead, just as the hot dog vendor would be, if he came in and sold hot dogs. It just happens that Mr. Lee's business includes the use of tables, while selling hot dogs does not.

Fred Agnir
06-13-2003, 12:41 PM
I think you need to read it again. You missed all the important issues and harped on non-issues.

To go with your hot dog analogy, if you came in say my parking lot business selling hot dogs, I may want a piece of your action. Should I tell you the first time, or the fourth time? Should I demand that you pay more than I would charge anyone else for the space? Should I, after I told you say 10%, then charge you more, say 40%, of your gross after all is said and done? After all, you're charging $2.00 for a hot dog, and everyone knows no hot dog is worth $2.00.

Should I now get mad at you for not understanding the needs of the Parking Lot Industry, after I just hosed you?

Fred

Fred Agnir
06-13-2003, 12:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote amgine:</font><hr> Fine member, you miss the point.<hr /></blockquote>Is that you Larry?

06-13-2003, 12:52 PM
To veteran, the fine member. If You were selling hot dogs in my parking lot, and I sold food inside, I would have you arrested and taken away. if a charity set up a fund raiser in my parking lot, it might be different, but not if they handed out coupons for my competitor. I suspect that the few people arguing this point have not owned their own room, and have not had a house pro in that room offering lessons. I think this would change the scenario a bit, when a service you offer is not purchased, while the services of a " by night" service provider are.

06-13-2003, 01:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>Is that you Larry? <hr /></blockquote>LOL! I was thinking the very same thing, Fred... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anybody else notice anything familiar with the new guys gna and amgine? Or is it just me? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Fred Agnir
06-13-2003, 01:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote amgine:</font><hr> To veteran, the fine member. If You were selling hot dogs in my parking lot, and I sold food inside, I would have you arrested and taken away. <hr /></blockquote>I was talking about a Parking Lot business, not a food business that had a parking lot. Sheesh.

Thanks for playing. Reading comprehension might have helped, but it's too late for that, now, isn't it?

Fred &lt;~~~ where's Sparky?

Wally_in_Cincy
06-13-2003, 01:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr>
Anybody else notice anything familiar with the new guys gna and amgine? Or is it just me? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

There used to be a guy who posted here as enigma ....amgine backwards. Not the same guy I don't think.

Qtec
06-13-2003, 01:36 PM
What if he had said it wasnt a lesson .?? They could just have settled up outside. Does the owner take a cut on money games as well.?

Q

Rod
06-13-2003, 01:50 PM
You sound frustrated.

Candyman
06-13-2003, 02:06 PM
I would say that what Scott does in someones PH is between him and the owner. What a student pays is between that person and Scott. Neither of which is any of your business. It is people like you trying to always tend to somebody else's business, that makes my big old butt sick. You remind me of the "thought police". Just leave us alone and quit ruinin' my day. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

highsea
06-13-2003, 02:36 PM
Would a Flight instructor pay more for an airplane rental than any other pilot?

Would a Golf teacher pay higher green fees?

Would a Sailing instructor be expected to pay higher boat rental fees than any other renter?

Why should Scott pay higher table fees? He shouldn't. The room owner's table fees are based on his operating costs per hour, not on who's at the table. Should a beginner pay less than an expert because it takes him longer to run a rack?

Besides this, I believe that the room owner is being shortsided. The student will certainly be back in to practice what he was taught in the lesson, which translates into additional revenues for the PH. Chasing the instructor away with unfair pricing will cause him to take his business (and student) elsewhere. That's just bad business sense.

-CM

cycopath
06-13-2003, 02:50 PM
You'd think if the room owner wanted to charge someone more for their table time it would be the gamblers paying it, not instructors. The gamblers are exchanging a hell of a lot more money than an instructor anyway. It always kills me how the room always has a "reserved" table sitting there unused most of the time, while you can't get a table and you have to be put on a waiting list.

SpiderMan
06-13-2003, 02:54 PM
That is an excellent, sensible analogy.

SpiderMan

arn3
06-13-2003, 03:24 PM
so while he could have been more accomodating, business is business. if he decides to change his rate with scott, so what.

what scott is doing is is setting up temporary business in someone else's shop. kinda like a freelance insurance salesman setting up for a few hours in another's office. and doing this where'ere he goes.

what i find interesting is scott's bloated view of his importance to a room he doesn't frequent.

"A smart room owner knows that just having a nationally recognized instructor in their room is an enormous benefit to the". " However, I am providing a valuable service to this room owner's clientelle, at the student's request...AND bringing business into their room."- that's utter nonsense. 5 hours in a room a couple of times a years means nada. players were frequenting the room before and after he left. scott comes and goes and will be a blip on the screen.

and he's also getting carried away with this "extortion" and "criminal discrimination" stuff. the manager called the owner after she let scott on the table. this tells me she felt uncomfortable about her decision and wanted it verified. if she was uncomfortable about it then why did she do it in the first place? maybe scott politely introduced himself and continued onto the table, ASSUMING things would play out HIS certain way. maybe the owner didn't like scott making assumptions.

bluewolf
06-13-2003, 03:50 PM
This is all very confusing.

Scott's rates are very reasonable.

We had an all day lesson. The next day, Scott and I met at the poolhall for a couple of hours. The pool owner got his usual rate for the both of us.

Just do not see the issue here. Kind of like making mountains out of molehills, to quote an old saying.

Laura

DSAPOLIS
06-13-2003, 04:02 PM
From "amgine"

The owner of the room is paying lights, staff, and rent, and has spent dollars cultivating players in his area. The Mr. Lee walks in and charges one of "his" players $150 for instruction. Number one, no lesson is worth $150, so I feel Mr. Lee is taking advantage of the avid players interest and image of the game. Number 2, is the fact that if a salesperson selling hot dogs came INTO the pool room and set up shop, the owner would not be happy...what difference is it that Mr.Lee comes in and sets up shop.

Comparing what Scott does to selling hot dogs is ridiculous. If it were not for Scott's tripod, nobody would even look twice in his direction as long as the table time is paid for. Scott's instruction is possibly worth more than he charges. I don't see where it is your business to comment on how much Scott Lee's fees are, especially considering the distance he travels to give top notch instruction. People are willing to pay the price he charges, and I have yet to hear of anyone complain that it was not worth every cent. Your comments would be justified if Scott was substandard in his instruction, but he is not. He shows up with a smile on his face with a ton of energy and passes along his knowledge, regardless of how long the drive was. Saying that Scott or other instructors like myself and Tim Miller are taking advantage of players is way off base,and uncalled for. As an "elite" player, perhaps you can start teaching students also. After about two weeks you will have a completely different point of view.

06-13-2003, 04:12 PM
To the fine member, money games are illegal in most places, let us not forget this small fact. It is also illegal to do business in a community without a business license. Perhaps if pool people stood up and made their business a real law abiding venture, some image issues would be cleaned up. I understand the gambling side of the game, and hesitate to comment except on the legalities. But very simly, yes, it would be very similar to the "Scott Lee" situation especially with a road player. If a person comes in and uses the rental of your tables(yes at regular price) and he generates revenue from that, the owner should get his fair share. The reason this is not discussed openly is that most be understand this is illegal. In part, so is marching in and charging for lessons, with no business license, and no government cut. And, in my opinion, extremely rude to the owner.

snook
06-13-2003, 04:19 PM
im not taking sides here, but the room owner DID NOT charge scott more table time, thats absurd.

he took A PERCENTAGE of what the lesson cost.

this was stated earlier and nobody seemed to see it. there is a difference though.

its like this, for the dumb hot dog analogy. im renting space, i charge everybody the same rent, the guy with a car, and the guy selling hot dogs, but since the guy selling hotdogs is more than making his money back than what rent cost i'm charging his a percentage of what he sells each hot dog for.

this does two things to the owner of the lot. it either a) makes him more money because of the extra cut or b)gets rid of competition in his lot and he sells more hot dogs in return

06-13-2003, 04:19 PM
To the fine Mr. Sapolis. Thank you for your input. I have given lessons for 5 years now, and stand by my statement that no lesson is worth $150. This comes from much experience, but another member puts it, if someone is willing to pay...it is worth it. I hope that when that fine member is in Russia, and starving because of lack of food supply, that I am selling bread. I understand that both you and Mr. Lee are regarded as good instructors, but that still does not change my view that $50per hr for a three hour session is too much. I am not saying the market won't bear it, I just feel that if the consumer shops around he can find a better deal for a lower investment. I am stunned however that you do not see the validity of the argument that some of the proceeds go to the owner. The owners rights, at the most basic level, are protected by law for just this reason.

snook
06-13-2003, 04:20 PM
now that i think about it, this is an unfair argument until we find out if "local pros" get charged a percentage for giving lessons, then we can know if it was fairness or stupidity

tateuts
06-13-2003, 04:47 PM
I can't hold my tongue anymore. Scott was there at the request of an employee of the club, who was a former customer, working for that person (not the club) as an instructor. Scott did not set up shop in the club soliciting customers, but was there at the invitation of an employee/customer.

How in the name of heaven, can you rationalize a pathetic attempt at levying a "tax" by the owner, over and above table time, because Scott has been asked by an employee for a lesson?

I own a business - a damn good business - with lots of loyal customers. If my customers are happy, I'm happy. There is no way I could morally justify such an action.

I don't care if Scott adds value to the place or not. He was invited there. The owner has the right to remove him, and Scott has the right to smear the owner for his irrational GREED 'till kingdom come as far as I'm concerned.

While Scott has too much class to say this, I don't. I found your critisism of his fees to be repugnant. It's none of your business what fees Scott commands.

Chris

pooljunkie73
06-13-2003, 04:54 PM
Amgine,

Why do some people pay $20 for a timex and some pay $2000 for a rolex?Because the rolex is better,right?Mr.Lee and Blackjack get paid that because they are that damn good. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Do you think a house-pro should have to pay the owner a cut of a lesson he/she gives?I don't think so.As for Mr.Lee having to pay extra for his lesson,that's extortion!Plain and simple.

Tom_In_Cincy
06-13-2003, 05:12 PM
amgine wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
I am stunned however that you do not see the validity of the argument that some of the proceeds go to the owner. The owners rights, at the most basic level, are protected by law for just this reason.
<hr /></blockquote>

This is going nowhere, "The owners rights" were already negociated. Then the owner changed his mind, and caused 'the' problem. Your argument is only VALID if the owner didn't get paid or lost business. Neither happened.

BTW, what law protect the owners rights in this particular argument? The right to refuse a customer a service?

Tom_In_Cincy
06-13-2003, 05:15 PM
TAP..TAP..TAP

rukiddingme
06-13-2003, 05:18 PM
I had a lesson from Scott this week and found his fees reasonable for the professional instruction given. I plan to have another lesson in the future when I have mastered what was shown to me. If I have to have a refresher I can always refer to the tape that Scott will provide me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I had the lesson at a pool hall in Chicago and there are no lessons offered there by the management or ownership so there was no problem as far as they were concerned. They were happy to see him. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I must say that the person who just registered today to start this thread is way out of line. What Scott charges are between him and his students.
Although I have only met Scott once I can assure everyone that Scott has more class in his little pinky than what this rude ___ could have in a lifetime. Hell, it even sounds like he's a little bit jealous to me... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
ruk

06-13-2003, 05:40 PM
I must say I fully enjoy this discussion, but if we are to continue, let us leave the instructors name out of it. This unfortunate event is interesting in its ideals, not in the characters. That said, in answer to one poster, whether an employee invites a teacher or not, he still must get the owner's input. Employee theft is the biggest problem most businesses face.

In regard to the value of a particular watch, or lesson, I am forced to agree. The value of an item or service is in the eye of the beholder. A Timex at $20 and a Rolex at $2000 is a bit extreme in analogy, but I understand the point. My comments were based on what the customer needs, not the value of the lesson. If the watch buyer needs to tell what time it is, would he be better to buy the Timex, or the Rolex? That is up to the customer. And this is my point exactly. The customer could tell the time just as well with the Timex as with the Rolex(for all intents and purposes), but the Rolex customer wants prestige, and probably some gold.

My goal is not to attack any instructor, but to educate any naive student. Yes you can pay excessively, and have the Rolex, but be aware the Timex will do the same job.

As to the house pro comment, the whole idea is that the owner gets ALL the money from the pro's lessons, because it is IN HIS HOUSE...hence house pro. The house pro gets a wage.The wise owner uses a house pro for a variety of purposes, but they are all to make the owner money. A house pro should be a maitre'd, an instructor, a tournament director, a PR man, a pool mechanic, etc. I am not saying there are not house pros out there that snow their owners, but that is a deal between two consenting adults.

highsea
06-13-2003, 05:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote amgine:</font><hr> Mr. Lee is not being charged more for the table time. He is being charged a portion of the proceeds of the business he is running in this person's room. he has set up shop using someone else's overhead. <hr /></blockquote>

I don't see that Scott had "set up shop" in this room. From what I can see, Scott runs his business from his home or office. He makes his travel schedule known, and takes appointments. He will give a lesson wherever the student requests. It may be his home, a pool hall, or the student may travel to Scott's home for the lesson, whatever. The details are worked out before the lesson takes place. In this case it was a pool hall, and Scott notified the management and received permission before the lesson began.

I am a Network Engineeer. Company A calls me to come to their site and troubleshoot a computer problem. They lease their office space in an office building owned by Company B. I fix their computers, and they pay me. (substantially more than $50.00/hr., BTW) Is Company B entitled to a portion of my money because I fixed a computer in their building? Does this apply to all professions, i.e. plumbers, electricians, painters, sheet rockers, interior designers, consultants, etc.?

Just for grins, say that Company C is also in that building, and is in the same line of work as me. Should the building owner require that Company A gives the business to Campany C? After all, I'm taking business away from them, right? What if Company C is not as efficient as me, or is unable to solve the problem? What if their rates are higher than mine? If I ran Company A I wouldn't lease my office space there.

The point is that Company B is in the business of leasing office space. The pool hall is in the business of renting table time. Even if they had a house pro, it would still be a form of discrimination to prevent another instructor from renting the table for the purpose of a giving a lesson.

As far as Scott's rate goes, it is irrelavent. If the student agrees to it and is happy, then it was a good deal. I imagine that at the end of the year, when you account for all the travel costs, hotels, meals, etc. $50.00 per hour barely pays the bills. I suspect Scott does this because he enjoys it, not for the money.

Regardless of whether it does or doesn't, you have no business making the kind of public remarks you made as to the worth of one of his lessons. You are not involved in the transaction, it is between Scott and his students, and their concern alone.

-CM

06-13-2003, 05:53 PM
To rukiddingme, the whole crux of the matter is outlined in your comment concerning an instructors charge, being between him and the student. I agree when the instruction takes place in the instructors private studio.

I have had my own hall, where I never charged for lessons, and I have been a house pro, where I educated the owner that his are the proceeds, and I get but a cut. I am amazed at the responses to this initial post. I would be very interested to see how many of the replies are from people who own a room, or have experience as a house pro. One example stated that in a particular room there was no facility for taking lessons, and that in that particular case, instructor and owner agreed to details. This is the owners choice. I am sure also that this particular instructor has class if you say so, but then I see an attack on me personally, which is kind of the pot calling the kettle black. I strongly stand by my initial point that the owners should benefit from the immediate financial rewards of the instruction, whether or not an individual feels there are residual benefits, which non room owners may be sadly mistaken about.

pooljunkie73
06-13-2003, 05:53 PM
The reason i used the watch anology is you get better quality in the rolex.In my opinion this holds true in instructors also.You could have an "elite" player instruct you for $50,or a pro player who makes his living doing this for $150.I personally would rather pay the $150 for the QUALITY instruction.

highsea
06-13-2003, 06:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote amgine:</font><hr> That said, in answer to one poster, whether an employee invites a teacher or not, he still must get the owner's input. Employee theft is the biggest problem most businesses face.

The customer could tell the time just as well with the Timex as with the Rolex(for all intents and purposes)

Yes you can pay excessively, and have the Rolex, but be aware the Timex will do the same job.

<hr /></blockquote>

WTF??? Who are you suggesting was going to steal something?

A sundial will tell time also, why buy a watch at all?
(Hint) QUALITY

-CM &lt;~~~okay, I'm done.

06-13-2003, 06:01 PM
I am going to leave this sleeping dog lie, but with one clarification. My statement that no lesson is worth $150 stands. Not any particular instructors, but ANY lesson. People who have ample funds can choose what they pay, and instructors can choose what they charge...nobody is forced to sign up. My concerns are not for the people already entrenched in the game, but for the persons trying to break in and learn the game, and I believe it is valuable for them to know that they can get excellent instruction for much less, or free, perhaps if they frequented a room that had such advice and instruction available, and valued their business.

Tom_In_Cincy
06-13-2003, 06:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I am sure also that this particular instructor has class if you say so, but then I see an attack on me personally, which is kind of the pot calling the kettle black. I strongly stand by my initial point that the owners should benefit from the immediate financial rewards of the instruction, whether or not an individual feels there are residual benefits, which non room owners may be sadly mistaken about.
<hr /></blockquote>

This "POT" has had enough of your closed minded babble. You can stand all you want by your opinion, but you've lost what little respect you could have gained by being just a little open minded.

It doesn't take being a House Pro or PH owner to know what is going on in a pool room. Customers are the BOSS, with out them, the House Pro and the PH owner are just members of the un-employed.

This sure sounds like someone that hasn't played any pool in anywhere here in the mid-west.

heater451
06-13-2003, 06:12 PM
You seem to have a beef about what Scott charges, and are using your belief that his price is inflated, in order to say he is too miserly to pay the table time. (By now, I have seen that you didn't mean to personally attack him, although you seem to be holding him up as a bad example, but bear with me. . . .)

If you go back to Scott's post (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=83484&amp;page= 0&amp;view=expanded&amp;sb=5&amp;o=7&amp;fpart=) you will see that the following are true.

1) Scott had a prior agreement with the owner, whereas you said, "This should be discussed and handled with the room owner beforehand".

2) Scott was not paying table time, because it is usually paid by his students, but the current one was an employee, and was not being charged.

3) The owner arbitrarily sent the manager to inform Scott that he wanted a percentage. (The telephone conversation we are not privy to, but Scott's view was that the manager was on the phone already, and did not make a special call--this to address the post that she felt she made some bad decision.)


In another post, and with the hot dog sales analogy, you equate what Scott does with making sales within a sales place--which is probably illegal, but certainly unethical. However, Scott was not there in a 'competitive sales' position. He was offering something outside of what the hall did. (There may still be a question of business legality, but I will leave that alone.)

Now, I would side with the owner's decision to charge a percentage, if he tried to negotiate, instead of forcing it. The other side, as "arn3" put it, the owner can "do what he wants"--in which case, he certainly could simply ban Scott, if he refused to pay. However, assuming that Scott and the owner had an existing verbal agreement, then I'm not sure how stable the ground is that the owner stands. . . .

Anyway, to bring back to a point, Scott was not trying to avoid paying. He was just stating how the owner was trying to put the screws to him, when they had already had an agreement about Scott conducting his business in the hall.

(Oh, yeah, I don't think any reference to Scott adding value to the business or not is relevant to the existing argument--if Scott wasn't adversely affecting business, then there should be no complaint on that ground. And, when you say, "Anyone that wants a piece of this pie will have to show these players that they have more to offer, like any other business", you've strayed into the value area.)


======================

arn3
06-13-2003, 08:47 PM
there was no negotiation on this incident. the instructor came into the poolroom, introduced himself, probably told the manager about his past solicitations there, took a table, and continued with his instruction. scott ASSUMED things would be as before or TOLD the manager about situations before.

the manager has doubt. THEN the manager called the owner. owner says "no way". no way means no way.

arn3
06-13-2003, 08:54 PM
the biggest problem with arguing on a message board is that one minute, pointless point that is tangental to the main arguement, can generate a life of its own. pretty soon, the main arguement is lost.

arn3
06-13-2003, 08:55 PM
/

tateuts
06-13-2003, 09:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr> / <hr /></blockquote>

Oh yeah?

\

So there!!!

Chris

arn3
06-13-2003, 09:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr>

WTF??? Who are you suggesting was going to steal something?

-CM &lt;~~~okay, I'm done. <hr /></blockquote>

yes------------table time

arn3
06-13-2003, 09:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr> / <hr /></blockquote>

Oh yeah?

\

So there!!!

Chris <hr /></blockquote>

why i oughta........*^$*

arn3
06-13-2003, 10:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr>
I am a Network Engineeer. Company A calls me to come to their site and troubleshoot a computer problem. They lease their office space in an office building owned by Company B. I fix their computers, and they pay me. (substantially more than $50.00/hr., BTW) Is Company B entitled to a portion of my money because I fixed a computer in their building? Does this apply to all professions, i.e. plumbers, electricians, painters, sheet rockers, interior designers, consultants, etc.?

Just for grins, say that Company C is also in that building, and is in the same line of work as me. Should the building owner require that Company A gives the business to Campany C? After all, I'm taking business away from them, right? What if Company C is not as efficient as me, or is unable to solve the problem? What if their rates are higher than mine? If I ran Company A I wouldn't lease my office space there. <hr /></blockquote>

first off,,,,the owner can do anything he wants. so the issue seems more like, "was it the right thing to do".

paying for pool table time is not close to being the same as a lease of space. the student/employee does not have the privelege of doing anything he wants on the table he pays for, as co.A does when it signs a long term lease to conduct business.

just for grins, if the poolroom has an instructor established in the room, then the owner can damn well tell the traveling instructor to go elsewhere or pay a %, as he would be taking business away from the poolroom instructor.

the quality of the instruction has no bearing on the situation.

highsea
06-13-2003, 10:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr>
first off,,,,the owner can do anything he wants. so the issue seems more like, "was it the right thing to do".
<hr /></blockquote>
I think that was what Scott was getting at. The owner pays the manager to manage the room in his absence. He should accept the decicions the manager makes. The manager allowed the lesson to take place. It was after the lesson was in progress that the manager raised the rate for the table.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr>
paying for pool table time is not close to being the same as a lease of space. the student/employee does not have the privelege of doing anything he wants on the table he pays for, as co.A does when it signs a long term lease to conduct business.
<hr /></blockquote>
Nor is a pool table a hot dog stand. The student was renting the table to play pool. I will give you a different analogy. When I rent an airplane for a flight lesson, the owner of the plane does not get a cut of the instructors pay. I hire the instructor separate from the airplane.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr>
just for grins, if the poolroom has an instructor established in the room, then the owner can damn well tell the traveling instructor to go elsewhere or pay a %, as he would be taking business away from the poolroom instructor.
<hr /></blockquote>
Yes, he is entitled to do this. He should do it before the lesson begins.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr>
the quality of the instruction has no bearing on the situation.
<hr /></blockquote>
I think the student would disagree with you.

-CM

highsea
06-13-2003, 10:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr>

WTF??? Who are you suggesting was going to steal something?

-CM &lt;~~~okay, I'm done. <hr /></blockquote>

yes------------table time <hr /></blockquote>

My original question stands. WHO is being accused of stealing?

-CM

arn3
06-13-2003, 11:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> Yes, he is entitled to do this. He should do it before the lesson begins.
-CM <hr /></blockquote>

that's really a point being missed. sl came into the room and discussed it with the MANAGER. i suspect sl took all too much for granted. the manager became wary about her decision, AND THEN called the owner.

arn3
06-13-2003, 11:23 PM
was not directed TO THIS SPECIFIC INCIDENT. amgine was refering, i think, to the arbitrary giving of free/cut-rates table time that is rampant in pool, that accounts for a major loss of income in the pool hall industry. it is this and other types of income loss in pool that amgine relates to the SL incident.

06-13-2003, 11:45 PM
Wait a sec, who would work in a pool hall if they didn't get free table time?

You want burger flippers or pool players? Can't believe pool hall owners are paying anything like a living wage to the guys behind the counter. It's got to be a sideline and a way to get time to work on your game. But correct me if I'm wrong, anybody on either side of this ...

As for cut-rate time ... I think that any regular expects a little consideration, just like you should get a few free ones at your home bar if you're not a tight-ass. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

wolfdancer
06-13-2003, 11:45 PM
Not sure I understand this thread...is Scott Lee now selling hotdogs?..Hope they're kosher..

highsea
06-13-2003, 11:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr>
that's really a point being missed. sl came into the room and discussed it with the MANAGER. i suspect sl took all too much for granted. the manager became wary about her decision, AND THEN called the owner.
<hr /></blockquote>
I think you are making an assumption here. That is not the way I read Scott's post. I am not alone in this view.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> 3) The owner arbitrarily sent the manager to inform Scott that he wanted a percentage. (The telephone conversation we are not privy to, but Scott's view was that the manager was on the phone already, and did not make a special call--this to address the post that she felt she made some bad decision.)
<hr /></blockquote>

And again, the owner pays the manager to manage the room in his absence. He should accept the decisions the manager makes. The manager allowed the lesson to take place. It was after the lesson was in progress that the manager raised the rate for the table. And even than, the actual amount charged was in excess of the agreed percentage. Apparently 20% PLUS the table time.

In addition to this, Scott stated that had given lessons there in the past, and had only been asked to pay the standard rate. When he came in this time to give the lesson, he stopped and talked to the manager. He had no reason to expect that the previous arrangements were no longer acceptable to the management. If the management of the PH decided to change their policy in that respect, they should either state so prior to the lesson beginning, or allow the lesson to take place at the old rates, and then let the instructor know that any future use of the facility would be at a higher rate. The way they handled it was unethical in my opinion.

I also believe it was a bad business decision. Sure he made an extra $30.00 that day, but I would be surprised if it doesn't cost him much more than that in the long run.

-CM

06-14-2003, 12:35 AM
Sounds like to me poor Scott Lee got hosed bad. He should simply never go back there and take his future business to a new place. When a deal is made, it should not be changed once the guy is committed to his fees and cannot raise them or put the ph owners required cut into his price.

Guys like Scott get taken care of by a lot of rooms who want a top instructor in, they give them the table time free to promote instruction &amp; practice while they are in town. Others are greedy and want a big bite out of the guy, he has to pass that bite on, and the price of his lesson soon becomes beyond the average room players budjet.
Some room owners are smart business men, a small few are nothing but failed pool road hustlers, and they maintain that old preditor mentality. A tiger never changes his stripes. Scott just ran into a preditor. The vast majority of room owners would never do anything this stupid that would cause hard feelings from a lot of people.
The Ice Mon

Scott Lee
06-14-2003, 01:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr> there was no negotiation on this incident. the instructor came into the poolroom, introduced himself, probably told the manager about his past solicitations there, took a table, and continued with his instruction. scott ASSUMED things would be as before or TOLD the manager about situations before.

the manager has doubt. THEN the manager called the owner. owner says "no way". no way means no way. <hr /></blockquote>

arn3...You don't have any idea what you're talking about!
I have a fine relationship with the manager of this particular poolroom. In fact, she had inquired about lessons for herself and her husband (btw, her team just finished 3rd in the BCA national tournament). In fact, she was embarrassed to come tell me what the owner had said to her. She did NOT call him to tell him I was there. It was part of a phone conversation after an employee meeting, where my student took an hour break, for the meeting, before finishing the last hour of the lesson. The facts are that I have taught in this room several times before, AT THE REQUEST of my students, and been charged the normal rate. If there was a change to be made, I should have been notified BEFORE the lesson commenced, so that my student and I had the opportunity to decide whether to go somewhere else or not. This was not the case...it was after-the-fact, and then I was overcharged more than I was told I was to pay. I paid the fee, and left.

As far as the room owner being "owed" a part of my fee, that should be between me and them, and not relegated to an employee to tell me...and certainly not in the middle of a lesson. Most room owners are grateful to have me come into their rooms, and freely state so. If they comp my time, and only charge the student, that is their business. If they charge us both, that's fine too. I have NEVER asked for, nor expected free table time in any poolroom. Since table time is generally part and parcel of taking lessons from me, the student is free to have the lesson anywhere they choose...in a bar, poolroom, private home, club, or anywhere else.

Personally, as I love to play pool myself, and often go out to poolrooms when I am on the road, I spend thousands of dollars in poolrooms all over the country on an annual basis. As I stated I am NOT looking for freebies!

As for my fee...it is far below some other professional instructors, both in my sport, as well as others (Allison Fisher charges $1500/day and nobody gripes...more power to her)! How much do you pay your doctor or lawyer per hour? As was stated, I travel TO my students, and do not expect them to pay my expenses to come to them. I charge a fair rate, am unabashedly unashamed of it, and people SEEK ME OUT to take instruction from me. On top of that, I offer people a permanent video record of their lesson, and a money back guarantee if they are not happy! So far, out of the many 1000's of students I have taught over the years, ZERO have been unsatisfied, to my knowledge.

As far as your riduculous statement that no lesson is worth $150...you obviously have no knowledge of training in professional sports, nor any other discipline, as $50/hr is NOT considered outrageous in any field. Would you expect to pay more to take a golf lesson from Jack Nicklaus or Tiger Woods, than you would from your local course pro? If not, you are sadly uninformed. Now I am not comparing myself to those fine gentlemen, but I am considered one of the better pool instructors in the country (by my own peers, as well as my students), and I am one of very few traveling instructors. I am very proud of what I do, and I teach many 'pro bono' lessons as well. DESIRE is the main ingredient for learning from me...not just whether you have the $$$ to pay me. Frequently my students get much more time than they pay for. I teach because I love it, and because I'm good at it. I asked for opinions from other room owners, which you are NOT. You are, however, welcome to your opinion...which, as you can plainly see, you are in an extreme minority.

Scott Lee

stickman
06-14-2003, 02:37 AM
You're entitled to believe that Scott's rates are too high if you wish. You can also choose not to engage him. As someone who did though, I'm quite happy, and don't feel the least bit cheated. Actually, I received considerably more time than I paid for. I didn't expect it, but was very appreciative of it. I learned more in a couple of hours of Scott's instruction than I would learn in a lifetime of hanging out in the poolhalls in my area. If possible, I'll engage him again, the next time he's through this area.

As for the particular incidence you refer to here, I can't pretend to know what happened, but would be hard pressed to believe Scott was out of line, based on my own personal dealings with him.

highsea
06-14-2003, 02:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr> was not directed TO THIS SPECIFIC INCIDENT. amgine was refering, i think, to the arbitrary giving of free/cut-rates table time that is rampant in pool, that accounts for a major loss of income in the pool hall industry. it is this and other types of income loss in pool that amgine relates to the SL incident. <hr /></blockquote>

Well, this discussion is about A SPECIFIC INCIDENT.

Amgine's statement was this: "That said, in answer to one poster, whether an employee invites a teacher or not, he still must get the owner's input. Employee theft is the biggest problem most businesses face."

I asked AMGINE a question: "Who is being acused of stealing?"

You responded to my question to AMGINE, stating that table time was being stolen or attempting to be stolen.

The way I understand it, the employee gets free time as a perk, and Scott was completely willing, and even expected to pay for his table time. To imply that someone was trying to steal from the PH is a cheap shot.

I think this is completely ridiculous, given the context of this discussion, both for amgine to imply this, and for you to come back and say what AMGINE was thinking when he made this statement.

You should change your username to "The Amazing Kreskin"

-CM

arn3
06-14-2003, 03:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr>
,,,,,,,

You should change your username to "The Amazing Kreskin"

-CM
<hr /></blockquote>

you're showing your age spots. take some geritol and quiet down. what is ridiculous is you drawing the thread towards personnal comments about posters, grampa.

arn3
06-14-2003, 03:31 AM
first of all, i haven't said anything about your fees. that was the amgine's beef, not mine. get what you can friggin' get.

and second, i'm only restating what you first posted. go back and reread your own post. can i help it if you just now decided to elaborate on your post?

highsea
06-14-2003, 03:39 AM
Hey Scott,
Let me know if you plan to come out west anytime. This old geezer would love to get a lesson from you.

And the table time in on me.

-Gramps

jbullerjr
06-14-2003, 03:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> The point is that Company B is in the business of leasing office space. The pool hall is in the business of renting table time. Even if they had a house pro, it would still be a form of discrimination to prevent another instructor from renting the table for the purpose of a giving a lesson.

<hr /></blockquote>

First off I would like to say that, IMHO, what happened to Scott was wrong. My favorite saying---"I can play by ANY rules, just let me know what they are BEFORE we start."

But, I do agree that it would not be out of line for the pool hall get a percentage of a traveling instructors fee...IF they have a house instructor.

If you disagree with that, consider this...
Same pool hall sells cues, does tip repairs etc...
I go in, rent a 9', put out and sell my cues, repair cues etc...
Should I only have to pay table time?
I am offering a product/service that the pool hall offers, effectivly taking away some of their business.
Remember, I am not talking about Scott's incendent, I really think what happened to him was wrong.
I just believe that there could be circumstances where a pool hall should expect a percentage.

On another note...

WTH!!!
No one gives the house a percentage of thier winnings?
I usually give 10%, I am rewarded with free table time, getting a table pretty much whenever I need one, free drinks etc...
Is this an abandond practice?

J.

Scott Lee
06-14-2003, 04:34 AM
arn3...My mistake! As for "he finally responds"...the first I even saw of this thread was about 4-5 hours ago.
Some of us actually WORK for a living, and don't have 12 hrs a day to spend on the computer! As far as elaborating, I only responded because, as you pointed out, amgine, put words in my mouth, and I wanted to straighten him/you, or whoever, out, with the truth...

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
06-14-2003, 04:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jbullerjr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> The point is that Company B is in the business of leasing office space. The pool hall is in the business of renting table time. Even if they had a house pro, it would still be a form of discrimination to prevent another instructor from renting the table for the purpose of a giving a lesson.

<hr /></blockquote>

First off I would like to say that, IMHO, what happened to Scott was wrong. My favorite saying---"I can play by ANY rules, just let me know what they are BEFORE we start."

But, I do agree that it would not be out of line for the pool hall get a percentage of a traveling instructors fee...IF they have a house instructor.

J. <hr /></blockquote>

Although the owner of this room is a known professional player, he lives several hundred miles away, and does NOT give lessons in this room...at least not that I am aware of (and I asked). They do NOT have a house pro, nor anyone providing instruction, although there well may be those capable of it locally.

Scott Lee

highsea
06-14-2003, 05:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jbullerjr:</font><hr>
...But, I do agree that it would not be out of line for the pool hall get a percentage of a traveling instructors fee...IF they have a house instructor.

If you disagree with that, consider this...
Same pool hall sells cues, does tip repairs etc...
I go in, rent a 9', put out and sell my cues, repair cues etc...
Should I only have to pay table time?
I am offering a product/service that the pool hall offers, effectivly taking away some of their business.
Remember, I am not talking about Scott's incendent, I really think what happened to him was wrong.
I just believe that there could be circumstances where a pool hall should expect a percentage.

On another note...

WTH!!!
No one gives the house a percentage of thier winnings?
I usually give 10%, I am rewarded with free table time, getting a table pretty much whenever I need one, free drinks etc...
Is this an abandond practice?

J. <hr /></blockquote>

I have no objection to a house asking for cut of the business PROVIDED you were not there to conduct a prearrainged transaction. I think it should be negotiated in advance, so the person has the opportunity to decide if he wants to pay. I think you agree with this.

If your customer called you up and said "I want to buy that cue we were talking about, meet me at the PH on friday and I will pay you for it", the PH should not get any of your money. If you just showed up and started unpacking your wares and laying them out on the table, that is a different thing.

I am curious, though, since you bring it up. I see dealers packing their wares to tournaments and PH's on a regular basis. What is a typical cut for the house for these guys? The places I play seem to treat the person as doing a service for their customers, and welcome them. BUT, usually they are not in competition with the house. They are doing tip repairs, and maybe offering a few higher end cues.

As to the cut of the winnings in a tournament, I have never seen someone pay the house a percentage. I suspect you are in a minority there, but I don't really know. It may be an abandoned practice as you suggest. I think it is a great idea, if the house reciprocates as they do for you, as it generates good will among all parties.

The reason I used my business analogy was that I was trying to find out where others draw the line. Obviously the owner of the building doesn't get a cut of my business because his tenant called me in. If I setup shop in his lobby, he would have a legitimate bitch.

The same thing applies to my flight instructor. Neither the owner of the airplane or the operator of the airstrip get a cut of the instructor's fee, because I hired the instructor and negotiated the plane rental. If the instructor setup shop at the airstrip, he could be expected to pay a percentage to the airstrip.

I did not agree that Scott had setup shop at the PH. He was doing essentially the same thing that my flight instructor does when I rent an airplane and ask him to meet me at an airstrip.

To me, there is a distinction between the person who is at the particular place to solicit business, and the person who is there to perform a prearrainged service for a customer of that business.

Lively discussion though!

-CM

highsea
06-14-2003, 06:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr> you're showing your age spots. take some geritol and quiet down. what is ridiculous is you drawing the thread towards personnal comments about posters, grampa. <hr /></blockquote>

You are evading the issue, junior. Amgine makes all kinds of unwarranted attacks on a respected member of this board, and rightfully gets slammed for it. He implies that there was some kind of thievery being perpretrated or attempted. When I called him on this, you piped in and backed him up, suggesting that they are trying to rip off the PH on table time, and that quote: "it is this and other types of income loss in pool that amgine relates to the SL incident"

Expect to be challenged.

You still have not said who was trying to steal table time, or what you base that assumption on. Since you can speak for amgine, perhaps you would care to enlighten the rest of us on those "other types of income loss" that relate to the SL incident?

As to personal attacks, look at your own response.

You and amgine both hide behind anonymous tags and attack from the shadows. Very bold. Why don't you step out into the light so we all know who we are talking to?

Qtec
06-14-2003, 06:11 AM
In my own humble opinion this particular incident had nothing to do with money.
[ I can hear Wally thinking ,"what wierd idea is Q going to come up with now ".] /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

If this was purely a question of cash , the owner would have got the manager to ask S. to come to the phone.

In my own humble opinion this was just an IMPOLITE way of telling someone to F..K OFF !!!

Q always says ,"if youve got something to say, SAY IT.

Q.

Kato
06-14-2003, 06:18 AM
Quite simply sir, a lesson is worth what the market bares. It's free enterprise and it's a good thing.

I have a lesson set up with Scott on June 28. I'm driving quite a substantial distance to meet him. I have every intention of paying his fee, paying the time, and taking him to dinner. Is it worth it? After all, I'll end up paying more than his fee plus 5 hours of driving. I say again, is it worth it? From what I understand, Scott is a bargain at twice the price. Darn straight it's worth it.

Kato

cheesemouse
06-14-2003, 06:28 AM
Scott,

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, she was embarrassed to come tell me what the owner had said to her. <hr /></blockquote>

In fact there are two owners of this business. I know both of them and I have never found them to do anything except promote the game of pool. In fact both owners are high caliber players. Both are respected players and gentlemen at the table showing respect to all. While I believe owners can do whatever they wish in there own place of business I can't help but believe there has been so sort of mis-communication in this incident...I have e-mailed one of the owners but have yet to get a reply. I am curious to hear the owners side of the story...

bluewolf
06-14-2003, 07:00 AM
Go get em scott!

Scott has always given me all and more that I paid for. He does a great service by traveling to locations all over the country and is booked well in advance.

That is why the last time Scott was here, I booked for an entire day. Scott helped me in many areas. If it were not for Scott, I would not have a stroke!!! That is worth more than gold for anyone who loves this sport.

His fees are less than other instructors of his caliber and they do not come to you, you have to go to them.

When someone comes on here and says that Scott charges too much, it makes my blood boil!!!

This man gave me my stroke and has a very special place in my heart. I do not know who you are, Mr. Amgine, but it seems the green eyed monster has got you by the balls!!!

Laura

Ralph S.
06-14-2003, 07:09 AM
Amgine, let me tell you about my first meeting with Scott. I had contacted Scott for an all day session. His price was $300 bucks. When he arrived, on time I might add, he introduced himself, set up the camera, and started right in to teaching. No wasted time. I was an above average player, but quit playing and never touched a cue for 12 years. Scott had me straightened out and fairly close to the speed I used to play at.

Now, I play beyond the level I was. I will note that I was skeptical at first, having never met him before and paying that kind of money. When he stated all day he wasnt kidding. I figured he was meaning an 8 hour session as all day, when in actuality we went atleast 12 hours, then went for some dinner and talked for another 2 hours. When I told him of my skepticism at first, his reply before we started the lesson was this,"If you do not feel it is worth the price agreed upon, I will shake your hand and we will part ways with no money exchanging hands." Let me tell you, that is what having confidence in your abilities is all about. Can you make that kind of claim? I didnt think so.

His instruction that I received is first rate. What credentials do you have?

As for taking a percentage of his fees for giving the lesson in this "other pro's" pool room, is absolutely ridiculous. If the owner didnt like it, then he obviously needs to get off his ass and make sure professional instruction is provided in his room.

I will bet any dollar amount he wouldnt treat Earl Strickland or any of the other top names in such a manner that he did Scott.

Plainly Amgine, you and the room owner need to wake up and smell what your are shoveling, and believe me, the smell aint pleasant! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

06-14-2003, 08:11 AM
After having his a losing argumant at AZ Billiards with Blud and having his @ss handed to him at Playpool.com, is this FL,using AMGINE &amp; GNA &amp; BOLO to come back to argu with you `Bozos`???

jbullerjr
06-14-2003, 09:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
Although the owner of this room is a known professional player, he lives several hundred miles away, and does NOT give lessons in this room...at least not that I am aware of (and I asked). They do NOT have a house pro, nor anyone providing instruction, although there well may be those capable of it locally.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Mr. Lee,

Please understand, I was not reffering to you particular incident. I tried to make that very clear, at least twice in my post. I read your post of the meeting and am on your side 100%.

I was stateing my opinion about the post I qouted. I included an example that might make someone think about the situation from both sides.

I don't own a pool hall.
I don't sell cues.
I am not a pro player and could use the help of a qualified instructor (such as yourself /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif).

But, years of debate teams,managment and corporate structuring, die hard...always trying to see both sides.

In your case, you were mistreated. From your post about it, you must have incredible patience.

&lt;------Might have lost it when told to pay $44 for 1/2 hour of table time.

J.

jbullerjr
06-14-2003, 10:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr>
I have no objection to a house asking for cut of the business PROVIDED you were not there to conduct a prearranged transaction. I think it should be negotiated in advance, so the person has the opportunity to decide if he wants to pay. I think you agree with this. <hr /></blockquote>

Without a doubt, I do agree.

[ QUOTE ]

If your customer called you up and said "I want to buy that cue we were talking about, meet me at the PH on Friday and I will pay you for it", the PH should not get any of your money. If you just showed up and started unpacking your wares and laying them out on the table, that is a different thing.<hr /></blockquote>

Once again, I agree. Please note: I am not taking the side of the pool hall in Scott's situation. He was mistreated and cheated.

[ QUOTE ]

I am curious, though, since you bring it up. I see dealers packing their wares to tournaments and PH's on a regular basis. What is a typical cut for the house for these guys? The places I play seem to treat the person as doing a service for their customers, and welcome them. BUT, usually they are not in competition with the house. They are doing tip repairs, and maybe offering a few higher end cues.<hr /></blockquote>

I don't really know, I was just using it as an example.
&lt;----Not a cue dealer.

[ QUOTE ]

As to the cut of the winnings in a tournament, I have never seen someone pay the house a percentage. I suspect you are in a minority there, but I don't really know. It may be an abandoned practice as you suggest. I think it is a great idea, if the house reciprocates as they do for you, as it generates good will among all parties.<hr /></blockquote>

I have never really done this on tournament winnings, just um...one on one matches /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif.
I do tip the tournament director if I win though.

[ QUOTE ]


The same thing applies to my flight instructor. Neither the owner of the airplane or the operator of the airstrip get a cut of the instructor's fee, because I hired the instructor and negotiated the plane rental. If the instructor setup shop at the airstrip, he could be expected to pay a percentage to the airstrip.<hr /></blockquote>

Good point.
But, your instructor has very little exposer while teaching you, the pool instructor has quite a bit more.
Also, what if the owner of the plane had one instructor that they wanted you to use? He certianly has that right and IMO has the right to request a fee from a different instructor if they are profiting from his investment.

[ QUOTE ]

I did not agree that Scott had setup shop at the PH. He was doing essentially the same thing that my flight instructor does when I rent an airplane and ask him to meet me at an airstrip.

To me, there is a distinction between the person who is at the particular place to solicit business, and the person who is there to perform a prearranged service for a customer of that business.<hr /></blockquote>

I also don't agree that Scott "set up shop" and wasn't trieng to imply he did. My statements are not and should not be linked to Scott's incident.

My intent was to show the side of a pool hall that has a house pro. My statements are only based on a pool hall that has a house pro.


Scott was wronged. Plain and simple.

If the pool hall or the plane owner has already agreed to the arangement, it should not change.

[ QUOTE ]

Lively discussion though!
-CM <hr /></blockquote>

Yea, too bad it (the whole thread) started on a sour note.

&lt;----Should have started a new thread.

J.

highsea
06-14-2003, 12:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jbullerjr:</font><hr>
Also, what if the owner of the plane had one instructor that they wanted you to use? He certianly has that right and IMO has the right to request a fee from a different instructor if they are profiting from his investment.
<hr /></blockquote>
Then he would be operating a flight school, not an airplane rental business, and I would go elsewhere. The instructor I hire is MY choice, and is based on many different factors, his reputation, experience, references from other students, etc. In the "SL Incident", the PH did not offer instruction to players, it was a prearrainged meeting between an employee and the instructor, and I don't see why anyone would think that the PH was entitled to a percentage. Simply "profiting" from their investment is a tricky standard to apply, as I showed in my analogies.

Also, I was not implying anywhere that you were siding with the PH against Mr. Lee. You clearly stated your position on that incident at the beginning of your post.

I was trying to show that there was a difference between what Scott does, and your example of the guy who comes into a PH, rents a table and starts selling cues and repairs.

-CM

arn3
06-14-2003, 04:25 PM
it was already explained, but dead brain cells have kept you at a loss.

but i was wondering how long it would take for you to pull the ole anonymity angle, your last hurrah.

tell me, DO YOU walk around with your name and address printed in bold caps on your tie-dyed Tshirt.

see ya later pops, you're no fun anymore.

highsea
06-14-2003, 04:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr> it was already explained, but dead brain cells have kept you at a loss.

but i was wondering how long it would take for you to pull the ole anonymity angle, your last hurrah.

tell me, DO YOU walk around with your name and address printed in bold caps on your tie-dyed Tshirt.

see ya later pops, you're no fun anymore. <hr /></blockquote>

Same ol' same ol'

See ya at the fishin' hole.

arn3
06-14-2003, 05:02 PM
my responses were twofold.
one, everyone was jumping on the original poster.
two, your original post was bitter, self important, and obviously one-sided. you have your forum and backers here. seems the only one unarmed is the PH owner. at least you didn't "name" the owner(although it wouldn't take much detective work). could've been what you said, did, maybe you were the 20th instructor to travel through the room that week. maybe the owner just lost a tough match and wasn't in the mood. maybe his gripe has a business logic that hasn't been brought up. anyway, he never got a shot to come back at you.

Scott Lee
06-15-2003, 02:54 AM
Cheese...SEE? You know more than I do! LOL I only know about Mark...don't know about his partner. I have never had anything but respect for him (although we have never met). He seems to be someone interested in providing a quality place to play, with very good equipment. I haven't seen the room in Fargo, but I expect it is at least the same. I also heard he is looking at opening a place in Des Moines, IA...where it is sadly needed. I would be VERY interested in what you hear. Perhaps you could PM or email me with this info, when you find out something. It's possible that I misunderstood something, but I don't think so. I have nothing to hide, and have only told exactly what happened, as it happened. I was treated very fairly the other times I have been in this room...three times to teach, and twice just to play, and take a break from driving through the area. This seemed to me, to be unreasonable behavior, since it was implemented 2/3 of the way through the prior scheduled lesson, and the price was 'upped' by 400%, over the previous times I had taught there. Had they told me of this "updated" policy beforehand, my student and I could have discussed it and agreed on how to handle it...which I will certainly do with any future potential lessons there. I might add, that several other customers have asked me about lessons there as well. Since I only come through there very sporadically, I keep a database, and call or email interested people, when I know I'll be coming through. I do the same thing all over the country.

Scott

Scott Lee
06-15-2003, 03:04 AM
J...Not a problem at all! LOL I was just trying to answer your question of whether instruction was being provided locally, either by the owner, or his representatives. Thank you for you kind support.

Scott Lee

AndyG
06-16-2003, 07:43 AM
Hi Scott, I've followed this thread with a great deal of interest. I haven't seen any room owners weigh in with an opinion, so here's my perspective as a 20 year room owner.

As long as you didn't disturb any other customers, didn't abuse my equipment, or otherwise create a disturbance, I see no reason to charge more than the going rate for table time. I wonder if the owner would have been upset if you'd been giving a friend some instruction at no charge. Perhaps he'd estimate the worth of your instruction, and charge a percentage of that also.

In my totally biased opinion, the owner was way out of line, and his actions were not in the interests of promoting the game.

AndyG

OnePocketChamp
06-16-2003, 09:42 PM
I had a lesson with Scott Lee a few months back and never once did he try to sell me any hot dogs, is this now another revenue venture for Scott? Scott, if you are out there, next time you come through Dallas I'll take two and do you also offer them with grilled onions???????

TomBrooklyn
06-16-2003, 10:54 PM
Just to show you how valuable hot dog selling space can be, there was an article in the NY papers a few weeks ago about a hot dog vendor who had several prime cart locations including one in front of the Metropolitan Museum of Art on 5th Avenue, and he hadn't paid his rent in a couple of years. He owed the city over four hundred and thirty thousand dollars.

Scott Lee
06-17-2003, 01:04 PM
Andy...Thank you very much for your valued opinion. I am surprised no other room owners stepped up with an opinion, on either side, as there are several who post here regularly. I even suggested they could contact me privately, via PM or email, if they wanted to make a comment positive or negative...as I am sincerely interested in this issue.

Scott Lee

Cueless Joey
06-17-2003, 01:39 PM
Scott, I guess we need to appreciate places like Hollywood Billiards who actually OPENED a private area for you to give me lessons during a busy night.
It boggles my mind why a pool hall owner not loosen up to PROMOTE this game.

9 Ball Girl
06-17-2003, 01:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr>It boggles my mind why a pool hall owner not loosen up to PROMOTE this game. <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe they're just in it for the money?

Wendy&lt;---is wondering when Scott will be in NY...

06-17-2003, 07:55 PM
Amguire, Scott Lee and Blackjack have forgotten more than you will ever learn. You should be more respectful to them, you are a nobody,they are somebodies. Until you identity yourself, and prove you can teach and not just harass people, my advice to you is to shut up.
The Ice Mon.

Scott Lee
06-18-2003, 08:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr>
Wendy&lt;---is wondering when Scott will be in NY... <hr /></blockquote>

Wendy...Oh geez! Between your gorgeous smile and Carol's sexy picture too...I wanna be there NOW!!! LOL I am still compiling a database of lessons and exhibitions that I can put together up in NY/NJ/MA/VT/NH/ME...but I'll GET there!
LOLOL

Scott Lee

charlieb
06-18-2003, 11:03 PM
I have never known Scott to say "times up" at the end of a 2 hr lesson or a 3 hr. lesson My times with him have always exceeded the time limits. The tapes are invaluable as tools to gauge if you have the necessary components working for you. Also, I have never read a disparaging word about him from any of his students. He drove across LA County for our last session in Orange Co. and arrived with a smile and a totally positive attitude. Like they used to say "different strokes for differnt folks"