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06-13-2003, 04:51 PM
Gambling and pool has been discussed in many venues, and I hesitate to comment on the overall rights and wrongs. Putting aside the legality issues, the main thing that concerns me is whether or not is it good for the game, and the room owners. In my experience there are two types of gamblers. There is Ed and Bob, the two accountants that come in for lunch hour, and bet $20 on a set. These gamblers, legal or not, seem to be much more harmless than the second type.

These gamblers are the fellows, and gals, that hang out in a room and all they are concerned with is your money. These players will "not get out of the chair for less than $50", or whatever the dollar amount is. These players routinely match up with players who obviously have little to no chance of winning, whether they give weight (handicap)or not. I concede that many top elite players will match up and wager, but for the most part these "pros" actually both have a chance to win. I again concede and agree that this is perhaps not bad for the game, based on these players, and Ed and Bob's enjoyment of the wager or the challenge.

It is a hazy and fine line that sets apart the money grubbers and hustlers from the aforementioned wagerers. Gambling is addictive, and I realize many people need help also. My point teeters within these descriptions. How do you keep the money grubbers from preying on the up and comers, and perhaps turning them off the game and its milieu, and cutting off these up and comers from a fine display of higher calibre pool, without paying through the nose for it. I don't have the answers, but I believe it comes down to the room owners and management. They must pay attention, and really define their goals and then act on them.

My personal answer is to play the money grubber one set, for as little as possible, and beat him. Invariably he wants to play again, when I state that " for the privilege to play me, we must play for nothing"(or a chocolate bar, or pop, or such) I have turned it around. They want money for the privilege to play them, but I want there to be no money on the line. Usually we end up having great sets, and the player does not go home broke. I wonder if this was more widespread it would make a difference.

I have had successful money players mad as heck that I won't play for money, but as I dominate the play they relent. I remember years ago, when I couldn't get matches with the top players because I was poor, and I promised myself I would never do that.

Don't get me wrong, I am happy to play with a wager, but only if the other player is knowledgeable of the game and my skills.

My main concern is that the big fish in the small ponds are having a detrimental effect on the up and coming players, and seriously stunting their personal growth in the game. Like it or notit is the owners/managers that can police this and/or set the precedents, and I feel that they have been lax in this important business responsibility. Do the owners not realize that their customers monies are going into moneygrubbers pockets rather than their till?

rukiddingme
06-13-2003, 05:28 PM
and your point is????
ruk

HalSmith
06-13-2003, 05:48 PM
You always have the choice of saying ,No Thanks I don't gamble.---Smitty

Rod
06-13-2003, 06:03 PM
Being a former room owner I did police a certain amout. If a known hustler come in and tried to take one of my friends or good customers cash, I stepped in. Usually I knew the speed of each player. I just let them know what their in for. If they choose to play so be it. If I don't know the individuals or speed, their on their own. As a room owner I could not hold everyones hand nor had the time to do such. Yes I was aware and so are many other owners. Some are not.

Qtec
06-13-2003, 06:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
My personal answer is to play the money grubber one set, for as little as possible, and beat him. Invariably he wants to play again, when I state that " for the privilege to play me, we must play for nothing"(or a chocolate bar, or pop, or such) I have turned it around. They want money for the privilege to play them, but I want there to be no money on the line. Usually we end up having great sets, and the player does not go home broke <hr /></blockquote>


...and they all lived happily ever after. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif





Q.

Q&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;pool is not gambling ,its a calculated risk.

bluewolf
06-14-2003, 07:50 AM
The writing style of your posts (not referring to content) has changed at least three times. I find this interesting and wonder if you are several personalities. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Laura

DSAPOLIS
06-14-2003, 10:53 AM
Strange post, but I'll add this anyway. You cannot stop the gambling. The only thing you can do (if you object to its existence) is to stop participating in it yourself and go on with your life.

From the sound of your post, you sound very naive about the subject anyway. You come across as a pool room owner sympathizer. As former room owner, I can honestly say that everything you brought up about gambling and instructor fees does not matter. If a guy comes into the room and wins $500, it is doubtful that the guy that lost it would have spent it on drinks, pretzels, or table time if the gambler hadn't got to it first.

Also, if you read my article "Gone Fishin' , I explain that the small fish are the reason that the big fish exists in the first place. How the big fish stunts someone's growth is beyond me. I know these guys exist, but there is an old saying that says that you can't get suckered unless you're a sucker. When you "agree" to play for any amount, YOU put your own butt on the line. If someone's growth is being stunted, don't blame the guy that won the cash, blame the guy that bet it and lost it. I have never felt sorry for anyone that has lost money at a pool table. Myself included.

The gambling rings in every pool hall follow a set pattern, or food chain. Big fish - eat little fish, Fisherman - catch fish. I spent a lot of years out on the road and can back up what I have just said.

If you are upset with this part of the game, and the fact that room owners are being screwed out of cash that is being used for gambling,(rather than on drinks or table time,) then it is my advice that you save your money get yourself a home table so that you can avoid the environment entirely.

Also, the term "moneygrubber" is extremely offensive. As a road player, I considered myself a professional. I played pool for various sums of money against some of the greatest players in the world. Never once did I "grub" for money. An agreement was made on the game and the sum each party would put up, and the winner earned the pot. Sometimes I lost, and sometimes I won. Also, if you're keeping track, I didn't possess a business license to do so. I'll jump out on a limb and say that this happens all over the world ,thousands of times a day, and that is virtually nothing you can do about it.

I don't gamble anymore. Many people that know me, know why I do not gamble anymore. Though it is not something I particpate in , it does not mean that I talk down about (or to) those who do gamble. It is a part of the game that I do not endorse, but at the same time I accept its existence. I am also aware that a majority of the pool playing public does not engage in the level of gambling you described, nor do they participate at the level that I did. Your energy would be better directed in promoting the sport positively and ignoring the seedy part of pool. The more attention it gets, the stronger it grows.

pooljunkie73
06-14-2003, 09:36 PM
Tap,tap,tap

arn3
06-14-2003, 09:53 PM
amgine,,,it is quite apparent that you are a marked man. going over the posts, no one has any decent replies for you. your early observation about the cliques here at ccb are correct. you should re-register under another aka.

tateuts
06-15-2003, 12:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> The writing style of your posts (not referring to content) has changed at least three times. I find this interesting and wonder if you are several personalities. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Laura <hr /></blockquote>

Laura,

There is one personality at work. The real name is etsap-dna-tuc, goddess of words spelled backwards.

sirhC

06-16-2003, 12:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote amgine:</font><hr> Gambling and pool has been discussed in many venues, and I hesitate to comment on the overall rights and wrongs. Putting aside the legality issues, the main thing that concerns me is whether or not is it good for the game, and the room owners. In my experience there are two types of gamblers. There is Ed and Bob, the two accountants that come in for lunch hour, and bet $20 on a set. These gamblers, legal or not, seem to be much more harmless than the second type.

These gamblers are the fellows, and gals, that hang out in a room and all they are concerned with is your money. These players will "not get out of the chair for less than $50", or whatever the dollar amount is. These players routinely match up with players who obviously have little to no chance of winning, whether they give weight (handicap)or not. I concede that many top elite players will match up and wager, but for the most part these "pros" actually both have a chance to win. I again concede and agree that this is perhaps not bad for the game, based on these players, and Ed and Bob's enjoyment of the wager or the challenge.

It is a hazy and fine line that sets apart the money grubbers and hustlers from the aforementioned wagerers. Gambling is addictive, and I realize many people need help also. My point teeters within these descriptions. How do you keep the money grubbers from preying on the up and comers, and perhaps turning them off the game and its milieu, and cutting off these up and comers from a fine display of higher calibre pool, without paying through the nose for it. I don't have the answers, but I believe it comes down to the room owners and management. They must pay attention, and really define their goals and then act on them.

My personal answer is to play the money grubber one set, for as little as possible, and beat him. Invariably he wants to play again, when I state that " for the privilege to play me, we must play for nothing"(or a chocolate bar, or pop, or such) I have turned it around. They want money for the privilege to play them, but I want there to be no money on the line. Usually we end up having great sets, and the player does not go home broke. I wonder if this was more widespread it would make a difference.

I have had successful money players mad as heck that I won't play for money, but as I dominate the play they relent. I remember years ago, when I couldn't get matches with the top players because I was poor, and I promised myself I would never do that.

Don't get me wrong, I am happy to play with a wager, but only if the other player is knowledgeable of the game and my skills.

My main concern is that the big fish in the small ponds are having a detrimental effect on the up and coming players, and seriously stunting their personal growth in the game. Like it or notit is the owners/managers that can police this and/or set the precedents, and I feel that they have been lax in this important business responsibility. Do the owners not realize that their customers monies are going into moneygrubbers pockets rather than their till? <hr /></blockquote>

DEAR MR AMGINE: YOU MAKE A WONDERFUL POINT, A Y0UNG MAN COMES IN THE ROOM AND SPENDS FIFTY BUCKS A WEEK TO PLAY POOL AND HAVE A FEW BEERS AND SOME FUN. THAT IS HIS BUDJET, WHEN HE BLOWS THAT, THERE IS NO MORE UNTIL THE NEXT PAY DAY.
If the room gets the fifty bucks, it helps keep people employed, the government gets taxes paid out of it. If the room lets the hustler take the kid and his fifty, the kid leaves and does not come back for a week. The room loses the fifty, the government loses the taxes, no pool hustler pays taxes, and only the hustler, who is nothing but a parasite wins.
If I owned a room, I would not let the roadies land. If regular guys want to match up and play OK&lt; but real roadies and fly by nighters coming through are nothing but problems.
It is amazing how many room owners actually encourage them, even treat them like they are stars. It boils down to this, the room features and sells gambling, or it does not.

Gambling has killed pool, and the gamblers and pool hustlers are it's disease. This is why it is off of weekend prime time tv and no corporate sponsors will go near it. Until pool cleans these people out, and cleans up it's image, it will remain where it is now, back to 1957 and nothing but a backroom game and no longer recognized even as a sport by any and all of the sports writers in America.
The Ice Mon

Deeman
06-16-2003, 12:51 PM
Ice Mon

Gambling has killed pool, and the gamblers and pool hustlers are it's disease. This is why it is off of weekend prime time tv and no corporate sponsors will go near it. Until pool cleans these people out, and cleans up it's image, it will remain where it is now, back to 1957 and nothing but a backroom game and no longer recognized even as a sport by any and all of the sports writers in America.
The Ice Mon <hr /></blockquote>

Gambling has not killed pool anymore than it has killed the casinos or golf, tennis and snooker...If you need an excuse to take a shot at pool, try more legitimate ones. There are plenty of reasons pool has little success on TV, if that is your measure of success. Try that the balls are too small for people to see on the screen, that small table sports are never as big a field sports, that the vast majority of the world just doesn't love pool the way many of us do. If you think that there is more money lost at pool than in Sunday foresomes on the golf course, you are not living in reality.

I don't care if gambling ends in pool altogether, it's just not a major factor in the sport or the world anymmore. Just don't harp on that old notion that, somehow, gambling is holding pool up from a magic leap forward. It just doesn't wash when your grandmother is spending weekends at the casino and weeknights at church bingo. Get real!

SpiderMan
06-16-2003, 01:21 PM
That was a well-reasoned response to the original posting. I look forward to Amgine's answer to the points you have raised.

SpiderMan

smfsrca
06-16-2003, 05:25 PM
This post and most posts about gambling and pool are largely anachronistic. Throw backs to another time when tournaments were not common and the only way you could learn the game was to match up with someone and gamble. Anywhere there are pool halls nowadays there are quite likely tournaments and those who wish to compete and not gamble simply stick to tournament play. Those that enjoy wagers tend to find one another for negotiated match-ups.
The pool hall hustler waiting to prey upon the unsuspecting innocent is an historical oddity of mythical interest. Your chances of running into such a person by walking into a pool hall is almost zero.