View Full Version : Facts N Rankings for Artistic Pool

06-15-2003, 09:52 AM



06-15-2003, 10:11 AM
Thanks, pretty interesting.

06-15-2003, 11:32 AM

Found that one before, back when I was researching our buddy FL. Notice he ranks 28th...


Now that one was interesting. Did you catch this part:

A sportsmanship award donated by Mike Massey was awarded to Larry Grindinger by player vote.<hr /></blockquote>Wow. I hear Larry really comes across different in person than he does on the boards. Perhaps it's true... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

06-15-2003, 12:53 PM
I saw this on playpool

ISpy on the wall 6 pages

Dear spy on the wall, who in the hell are you. Why do you post a malicious post whose only purpose is to embarrass me? Why are you doing this? You sir have sunk down to the lowest depths of human decency, you can’t go any lower than this. You had to dig, to find an old outdated list that you know is no longer current, and you post that to make me look bad. Bad Bad Bad, sick, sick sick. People write me telling me most of you are sickos or wackos and Al Quida of the internet live on this board. Do you get some kind of kick, hurting somebody else? Does not an attack using false data, make you a sicko sir. This is the bottom feeder’s board, which is why I have left it and have no desire to post here. There are other places that don’t treat people rudely and don’t allow you to do false posts on people. I don’t need you people or your crap.

I founded the world trick shot championship and TASA, the governing body of trick shots in 1995 and began the world’s first real and true trick shot competitions. Up to that point, none had ever occurred. There was this one guy saying he won it year after year after year, but the problem was he was the only one playing, he played only himself, so he won every year, and nobody else was invited to play in his event. He is running around saying he’s won 30 in a row or some silly number like that. If any one wanted a title, they just dreamed one up.

I came along and broke all of these frauds up, challenged all of these people to put up or shut up, they all ran, because none of them had any proof. Let me get this straight, I come in, bust the frauds, run them off, now you bozo’s are calling me a fraud, are you people nuts or what? I knew you were stupid, but this is beyond dumb. I am the guy who said you couldn’t be a fraud; you can’t claim any title, unless you play me, and the others who show up. To be a world champion, we invite the world to be able to come in and play for the first time. Any person, anywhere can compete on a fair playing field, and now be the world champion.

News of this was published in the two major magazines; both ran 3 pages and my pictures, Billiards digest and pool &amp; billiards magazine. My early events were sanctioned by the BCA. I made world champions and North American champions out of George Middleditch, Tom Rossman, Rick Wright, my self and others. These events ran between 1996 to 1999, 4 years. The turnouts were small, the sponsorship was light, and we lost money on every event. I hate to say it, but that is about the same results the BCA has achieved over the last 4 years they have ran it also.

The BCA did not want me running a world event; they had no direct control over. They went out of their way to kill off any chance I had of making a success at this.
Therefore I just gave up and said it’s yours, you run the damn thing.

They offered it to me to run to report to Rossman, I turned it down, they said what about Lillis, I said great. The two of them became partners. Their first event was in 2000, and I spent 40 hrs training the table judge Jim Oliver who put in a fantastic professional job running the event. I turned over all of my shots to them and they used half of them, they used most of my rules. When the 40 shots came in, they only gave me 6 weeks to prepare. I went off on a 2-week tour of military bases to show &amp; teach with Wonder Dog. When I returned, I planned to spend the month to prepare to make a good showing and to contend. I was up on a tank taking promo shots with Wonder Dog and he slid off, I tried to catch him and went off with him.
I landed badly, broke my right foot. I finished the tour on crutches; I did not show, just taught and sold stuff and came home. The event arrives, and I have not been able to play or hit a ball. Half of the shots I now face, I have never made before, don’t even know how to make them. I went into the event, totally unprepared, totally cold. Doing so I realized meant only one possible result, I was coming in last.
I wanted badly to be a part of the inaugural event. If I did not show, they are going to say I am chicken.
My doctor about flipped when I told him I was going to play, he said man, you are on crutches, are you nuts. He turned out to be right.
I got permission from the BCA to play in house slippers and a cane, and off I went. My dress shoes would not fit over my broken and swollen foot.
I spent a lot of time helping other players, how to set up this shot, what that rule means, how to make this masse shot.
I actually saved the event. Few know this story, but Mike Massey was furious over them ignoring his shot input. He felt they put together at best an amateur shot program that favored the person who put it together, most were his show shots. Mike felt it was wired to help the other guy win. We went out to dinner and all night long I begged him to calm down. He was going to walk off in the morning in protest and leave. I said Mike if you do that, you force me to walk with you, and others will follow and support you as well. You will destroy the event, and you will be remembered for that, for a very long time. I said Mike, you don’t know how good you are, you are good enough to spot these guys their advantage, and still beat them at their own game. When you do, you will own them for years to come. Mike signed off on that, and did just that. This was at the Rivera Casino in Las Vegas, Nev, 2000.

I tried to play, but could not hit my butt with a broom. I would hobble up to the shot, stand and try to balance on my left foot and shoot. I never realized the vital necessity of balance between the two feet before. Without it, I was toast. I shot the lowest score of all time; I damn near missed every shot. It was the greatest embarrassment of my life; it was so hard to swallow. I wanted to die, and I almost got my wish. Kimura almost shot as low as I did, and he was on both feet and healthy. In a field of 8, I finished last, 8th, not 28th. Towards the end of my program, I almost passed out and fell to the floor I was in such great pain. You can call the table judge to verify all of this, he saw it, and saw my entire medical file, plus the x rays of my broken foot.

Mike Massey won the lst BCA world event, and he went out and bought a very expensive wood engraved plaque. He give it to me, and he said I won the first sportsmanship award of the year, and every year, a similar award will be presented to a player who shows that same spirit. I have not shown that award on my site, I may put it up soon.
The problem is I never played in another event. I wanted to, I became crippled and could not. They have 3 more events, and each time they get the same small field shows up. They kept combining all of the scores, trying to make the event look like it had 4 times the players it really drew. Next year comes, I don’t play, I drop to 18th, the next year comes, I don’t play, and I drop again to 28th. This is how I got from 8th to 28th, not playing. Had I kept playing, I would have moved up to 3rd at least, or higher. I should have, would have contended had I not been playing with and on a broken foot. I have played dead even with Rossman twice, Gerni has never beat me at anything, ever. Massey knew if I had a good day, I could and would take him; I had no fear of the man. Kimura I can take out one handed. No way no how it was possible for me to come in last, or 8th.

Me being 28th in the world is the biggest joke of all, I have always been in the top 3 in the world, everyone knows that. I saved that first event, and the only reason that event is being played today, is because of me, my courage for creating it, and making it happen in the first place. And you people have the low down guts, to call me a fraud.
Hobbling around with the broken foot had exhausted me, I flew home, walked in the door and fell to the floor with a stroke, and I almost died. They ran me through every test they had, and found my heart was almost twice the size of yours in the hospital. My blood pressure was well over 200+ by l70. I recovered from the stroke with no visible impairments. I am still on today, the maximum dosage of blood pressure medicine they dare give me. I am normal, l20-90.

Walking on an unhealed break caused it to heal poorly, it had to be rebroke, and having two breaks on the same line, that foot is very weak today. If I fell off of even a small footstool, I would probably break it again. Then arthritis hit the break, and bone spurs occurred in new x-rays. Today you will see me walking stiffly, especially if I set down and then get up.
I walk and move around now well, but in great pain. All I take for pain is alleve and a few scotches after 5pm. I don’t do drugs, any kind, legal or illegal, I hate drugs.

My master, a world champion and a 6th degree black belt was going to open up a new Dojo and said, you’re a 2nd degree black belt, come teach and I’ll train you to get back into shape. My back was killing me, I did not know what the problem was at the time, so I began to hang my self upside down on a gravity glider. I also began doing so advanced kicks in our workouts, I blew out both of my Achilles tendons, and they got knots behind my ankles almost the sizes of golf balls. I never knew such pain was possible. My Md got me with a top arthritis expert who teaches at Emory University, and he got me with a sports therapy MD. I had 3 experts working on me. When the sports people saw me they said how did you get in here, I said sort of shuffled. They said they never saw a case that bad, the last time was a pro basketball player who came in being pushed in a wheel chair.
It then even got worse, I had broken my back in 1985 in an almost fatal airplane crash, and I broke the plane in two on the interstate making a mess of the Littlerock morning commute. I spent a year lying in bed flat on my back, and a year to rebuild myself in a health club. Two years later, I barely had the strength to carry a brief case. I lost an inch in height and most of the padding in my spine was compressed and lost due to the impact of the crash. I was now like a car without shock absorbers; I would be in pain for the rest of my life. After that, I went on to become a senior citizen, and as one, I broke every power record in the sport at an age when every one else in any other sport is retired at. I did that with 25% of my power gone, and decades out of my prime.

I was told, there would be a day, when the aging process would cause all of this to just collapse, and my final days would be in a wheel chair. More x rays were made, and they found out my entire spine was now racked with bone spurs, arthritis was taking me over. My right thumb became crippled with it; I could not longer hold a cue. My back was in such pain; I lost all of my strength and endurance. Just before the 2000 world event, I was the most powerful pool player on the planet, right after the event, I became the weakest, and my AA game was now gone forever. Soon any game, was gone.

The doctors all agreed I was toast; my spine was now curving and going into scoliosis. If all this had happened to Wonder Dog, I would have shot him. The doctors wrote me a total medical disability, proof of that is on my license disability plate. I could barely walk now or get around. My range had been once the world and I flew jets, my range now was the ten feet between my bed and my toilet. I spent 2 l/2 yrs crippled. I did not hit a ball, work or earn a dime. I simply retired and I told no one what had happened to me.

I had sent a old video tape to this jerk who writes a column, all I said was look, I do masses just like this Mexican you wrote about, you have a pool player as good as he is. He throws the tape in the corner, never watches it, and forgets why it is there. One day he cleans out the corner &amp; plays the tape, a tape I took off the market 3 years earlier because it had a lot of problems. 3 years after I pulled it, he does a review of the tape and slams it and me. I never asked for a review, he reviewed the wrong damn tape, he never even calls me to ask questions or to tell me he is doing the article. He also printed that same damn rankings list you did, can the guy be any good if he’s ranked last in the world 28th the guy wrote.

I had not looked at a pool magazine during my infirment nor did I want to. I got a call from a friend about the slam. I saw that and frankly went totally fargin ape. It was the worst case of bad journalism I had ever seen. He gave me the incentive to come back, to overcome my medical problems and re enter the world event just once, to show people like him how wrong they had been about me. The doctors told me there was nothing they could do about my back falling apart; frankly they said a wheel chair was where I was going. The Achilles tendons, all they could do was offer an operation, and they said usually you have 2 and they fail, sometimes the 3rd one works, usually all 3 fail and you are worse off than before. They set my odds at only 20%, and those odds suck. They said they could begin giving me cortisone, did not want to, and I said do it, so 3 times a day was the program. They said it might be 3 months before it kicked in and had any benefit, he said frankly mine was so bad off, and he did not think it would work. I complained about me being ranked last in the world, 28th, how could that be fair when I played once and came in 8th. People are now using this against me to smear me. I said you all know, I am not 28th, you all know my true ability, I am getting the shaft here, for you all to make your event look better. After what I did for you, you owe me to correct this injustice.

I took my case to Steve Ducoff, the director of the BCA and to Tom Rossman and Steve Lillis who run the event. All three are honorable men, all three totally agreed with my position, and they agreed to just drop me off of the list, and today I do not appear on any current world rankings lists. If I come back in and am able to play, I begin with a new slate, the appearance on the broken foot, is considered nothing but an appearance, which is what it was. You people dragging out that old list is nothing but low down chicken S*** bull S***. They totally revised how that list works, because there were other players other than me, that were also being unfairly listed far below their true abilities as well.

Steve Lillis asked me how I was, and I told him my story of why I never returned to play because I had been crippled all of this time. He asked me if I wanted to pray with him and I said yes. He prayed for me, for the blessed savior to heal my wounds and to allow me to return to be able to play, compete and to teach. I went to bed dragging one leg behind me. A beautiful calm fell over me. I had been racked with so much pain I could not sleep, I would toss and turn all night long. For the first time in years, I slept like a baby. When I woke up the next day, I could not only walk, I could trot, and my back had loosened up. I could actually function for the first time in years. Was it the cortisone given to me the day before, possibly, but I doubt it could have worked that fast, and I never went back for any more. Was it the power of the lord who released me from my medical bondage, yes, I firmly believe it was. Steve’s prayer was sincere, he stands in good with the Lord, his prayer was heard and answered.

I immediately booked into the Allen Hopkins Expo this March and headed up to Philadelphia, Pa to entertain and to show. I left and arrived at that show with no practice and no preparation at all. I went into this major show, without hitting a ball for 2 l/2 yrs, neither had Wonder Dog either. A 2nd Christian minister I work with is at email goproclaim@aol.com or www.geocities.com/pool4christ. (http://www.geocities.com/pool4christ.) He felt I had no chance to pull this off. I not only pulled it off, both me and the dog made every shot attempted, and people were requesting the hardest shots on earth for us to make. We blocked the aisles we drew so many people. I invited other fine Christians to show with me in my booth, Tom Kennedy, Tom Rossman and Steve Lillis who runs Gospel trick shot ministries, www.angelfire.com/nj3/gts (http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/gts), you can call him at 973-728-5974. His email is billiards12@hotmail.com This board is filled with the devils front line troops and his imperial guard. Those of you who are cursing and acting like animals on this board, or who are trapped in wasted lives of gambling, getting drunk or drugs, need help.

These two fine Christian ministers will and can help you like they are helping me. There is no charge for this, all you have to do is be sincere, and call them, and pray to the lord, it is that simple. Please all of you nut cases, don’t harass these fine people, you have me to trash, leave them alone, unless you don’t want to burn in hell. By the way, when you get there, I hear hell is packed with your pals; you should get plenty of action, if you don’t mind playing on fire and your forked tail flopping around.

I passed the test and made it through the Hopkins expo, then went on a 10-day tour of the NE and New England, making stops in NYC, Boston, Washington DC. I knew I was back. I will be showing and entertaining at the BCA show in Las Vegas next month with my friend Steve Lillis. If all goes well, I might re enter the artistic world event this fall, or for sure I will return to it next year if my health holds up.

My plan is to return to the game, tour, show and teach, and I am doing that now. I plan to do this for only three years, and then retire to my ranch in Costa Rica and do nothing but play 3-cushion on my Verhoven and never pot a pool ball ever again or come back to the states. I wont be here long, then I will be gone. How about you guys give me a break here and get off of my ass. I am not a fraud, I am the guy who busted all the frauds and exposed them. It was the frauds I exposed, that started this vicious rumor that you guys are repeating today. Their only defense was to call me the fraud, lets get this one right, I am the fraud busting exposing the frauds. Wake up boys, you have been had, it is not true. You can believe it, or not.

VENI, VIDI, VICI, I BET NOT ONE OF YOU HAVE A CLUE WHAT THIS MEANS. IT MEANS, I CAME, I SAW, I CONQUERED, IT DOES NOT SAY I CAME, I DID NOTHING, I LIED, I RAN A CON AND A FRAUD, THAT IS WHAT THE CONS DID I EXPOSED. Now you have the true story about my true ranking, and why I have not played these guys. If I could have, I would have.

I was never afraid to play them, I played them, I was never afraid to play any one any where, any one of them will tell you that. Some will read this and it will now come into focus, others will continue to rag me, do what you gotta do boys, C’est la vie….My friend Mike Massey just won in Kiev, and has now won 3 out of the last 4 world championships in the Artistic world. I was the one who would not let him walk out of the first one. I would have loved to had the chance to play in these and to have made my self famous as Mike has, but fate did not allow that, so all I can do is now cheer Mike on from the sidelines.
Best Wishes,
Fast Larry Guninger

06-16-2003, 09:53 AM
What you have presented here was also put on playpool by yappingwolf. This appears to be inaccurate information, except for the sportsmanship award.

I have the correct information, but doubt that most of the ccbers could give two flips since most of them are not into artistic pool. Why did you care enough to post this here?

Do you have a personal vendetta against this person. If so, you can keep it to yourself or go duke it out with him.


06-17-2003, 07:22 AM
To All Media Contacts, Billiard Fans, and “Artistic Pool” Friends,

In the summer of 2002 the WPA APD (World Pool Billiard Association) Artistic Pool Division released a “ranking list” of those players that had competed in one or more events since the initial competitions started in May of 2000. Each player that participated in these events was given a ranking position based on a special “power rating” factor. This ranking was later discovered to have a tremendous “skewing effect” to the “true” abilities of those listed. The best efforts of many individuals to make this ranking valid in statistical calculation and credible presentation fell short of its original intent – to give those dedicated to “artistic pool” some sort of recognition as skilled professionals and dedicated individuals to this pioneering discipline.

“Fast Larry” Guninger was listed on the original ranking list as Mr. Larry Grindinger. His initial placement and presentation on this list was “skewed” to an extreme due to many factors, and therefore, provided a totally invalid image of his “true” position in the world of “artistic pool” superstars. Larry pioneered many of the original concepts of the “artistic pool” movement on the pro level with his TASA organization. In addition, he developed his skill of “artistic” cue movements to a level most would only dream of. Power strokes, 2 table spectacular shots, Ripley’s Believe it or Not records, and many titles in this magnetic discipline called “artistic pool” became a mainstay of Larry’s life, giving tremendous credibility to this special “crusade” internationally.

Realizing the original “power rating” ranking was not realistic and invalid for many of the players, it was subsequently removed from each source of media release, except for one that still exists – www.ontherack.com (http://www.ontherack.com) I have repeatedly asked this site to remove this “invalid” ranking list until a credible and valid system of ranking the players could be developed. For a period of 8 months there has been no response to my requests and now pleas to them to remove this list. Therefore, to whoever it may concern, let this document be an official notice that “Fast Larry” Guninger and those on the original list are all on an equal footing of “professional skills, professional image, and professional demeanor within the “artistic pool” international domain.

Until such time that a new ranking system is released to the public, events will simply list the results without a cumulative ranking of skills. We are truly sorry for any and all harm the original ranking might have caused any player. Any and all remaining “ranking” lists for “artistic pool”, that a person might find in cyberspace or written release are hereby invalid and void of value. A new “ranking” system for the international arena of “artistic pool” should be forthcoming in early 2004.

Respectfully Submitted,

Tom Rossman, President
WPA Artistic Pool Division


Has anyone even seen 'On the Rack' in recent months. It appears that the site was undergoing some kind of construction on 12/10/02. Speculation is that the magazine is out of business. Anybody know?

Regardless of whether you like Larry or not, it would be nice to know the truth, after yappingwolf made such a point to post these links. I had extreme second thoughts about presenting this at all because I think that many people here could not give a flip. After, YW posted the links, however, one which may not even be valid, it seemed the right thing to do.

It does appear that Larry competed ill in 2000 and due to his determination to support the organization was given a sportsmanship award. He did not compete for the next two years, yeilding lower points, according to the system then in use.