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cheesemouse
03-29-2002, 09:17 AM
Sorry for tricking you into reading this...How to control jumpsticks over use and encourage the developement of kicking skills?
I think it's to late to outlaw jumpsticks and it is too big a job to stay up with the developement of new technology and whether it is legal or not, so, I'm suggesting a new rule that will do the trick. What do you think of this: If you use your jumpstick you have to finish the inning with it.....that's all folks.

03-29-2002, 09:33 AM
Hey Cheesemouse... 'far as I'm concerned, jumpsticks should be absolutely outlawed. Banning them creates only positive side-effects:

1) Well-played safeties actually mean something.

2) Jumping balls with a regular cue, which requires a decent amount of skill, takes on added importance. The nice thing is that when your opponent plays a so-so safe, you can jump out of it... but when your opponent puts you in Alcatraz, you are forced to kick.

In my opinion, jump cues enable all levels of players to get out of safeties fairly equally, and this is absurd.

Soooooo... I'm in favor of your rule stipulating that you must finish the game/inning with any cue you switch to. That'll teach 'em...

- Steve

Rich R.
03-29-2002, 10:28 AM
Although I just purchased a jump/break cue and began jumping balls for the first time in my life. I would gladly accept the outlaw of jump cues. Rich R.

Q-guy
03-29-2002, 11:01 AM
. Just to play devils advocate, When one foul came in we all hated it. Then we discovered how powerful it was and no one was running out ant more. All you did was try to get ball in hand with cheap roll ups behind a ball and passed up shots you would maybe have shot. As one foul became the norm even average players began kicking well enough that you only tried to snooker them if you thought it would be a good one. Now with the jump shot, the player has to be even more careful what they do because a half assed snooker is not worth anything. Add to that just plain lucky leaves after a miss that often resulted in a ball in hand. The jump cue has forced the player at the table to have to play a better game. No looking around for a cheap ball in hand. There is more then one way to look at it. Also the public likes the jump shot. We could go back to putout where one game may last 15 minutes and nobody except the most die-hard spectator even knew what was going on. It is a positive thing for the game in my opinion. The only ones complaining are those who can't stand seeing the in coming player hit the ball after they tried to win with a cheap poorly played safe. Again, just another way of looking at it.

Tom_In_Cincy
03-29-2002, 11:11 AM
Q-Guy, You have nailed it down pretty good. This is how I feel and I support your thoughts.
As much as I dislike the 3 foul rule, sometimes when I am playing an opponent that I know can use the jump cue very well, it is more of a challenge to 3 foul this person than running out. Just a personal vendetta agains jump cues I guess. But, its still fun to see them squirm..

03-29-2002, 11:50 AM
Q-Guy, I must respectfully disagree.

First, you're right, I get sick watching my opponent easily make the hit with a gimmick when he's safe.

There are numerous situations in 9-ball when there's no realistic shot, and no lock'm'up safe. I can't discern what you suggest in this scenario, but I think it takes a lot more skill/control to play a decent safe, than it does to start whacking at awkward bank shots.

I'd rather strive to play perfect pool, ending all my innings on either wins or safes, than ending many of my innings on wins but quite a few on misses.

- Steve

TomBrooklyn
03-29-2002, 11:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Steve_Lipsky:</font><hr> ...jumpsticks should be absolutely outlawed... 1) Well-played safeties actually mean something. 2) Jumping balls with a regular cue, which requires a decent amount of skill, takes on added importance... 3) jump cues enable all levels of players to get out of safeties fairly equally, and this is absurd.<hr></blockquote> The Jump Cue Myth
Steve, well-played safeties still mean something with a jump cue. The idea that using a jump cue makes for an easy shot is a myth perpetrated by those who haven't used one or who are at a skill level where they consider running a rack a routine feat.

Two Attempts, Two Failures... By Pros.
Jumping a ball with a regular cue consistently requires more than a decent amount of skill, it requires a great deal of skill... before the application of precision and finesse is even considered. Even jumping a ball with a jump cue takes a considerable amount of practice to do with any consistency and control. The last jump cue jump shot I saw was attempted by Janette Lee at Valley Forge. She clipped the ball she was trying to jump, giving ball in hand to her opponent. The time before that was another WPBA pro who cleared the jump but had the cue ball bounce off the table.

It is true that a jump cue can sometimes help a player get out from being hooked. However, it is not an automatic solution, it is never an easy shot, and without excellent execution one can sometimes sell out the ball and possibly the whole game. With a jump cue, one should give as much consideration to the shot as they would to any other difficult shot. Without a jump cue, a jump should rarely even be considered by any but highly skilled players.

Tom_In_Cincy
03-29-2002, 12:05 PM
Tom,
Do you think it is easier to learn to use a Jump cue than to Masse or kick? IMO it is. I have taught players to jump partial balls in less than 10 minutes. But it takes much longer to teach them to Masse or Kick shots.

Jumping a ball is over rated IMO. It doesn't take much skill to learn to jump a ball. Jumping a ball accurately and then getting position, it where the skill comes in..

Just my opinion.

03-29-2002, 12:10 PM
Well, Tom, I agree with you. I think the jump cue is absolutely abused in the WPBA... they rarely make the ball unless it's hanging, and many times just hop the table or miss the hit entirely.

But... in another thread, we have a jump-cue maker saying he taught his insurance salesman, a non-player, to jump within 10 minutes or so. Even if this is an exaggeration, I don't think it will take a decent player more than a half-day to effectively learn the shot. I just can't, and I won't, ever call this a skill.

Maybe I'm just upset because I spent a lot of time learning to jump with a full stick, and these miserable halfcue stumps took a hard-fought advantage away from me.

- Steve

cheesemouse
03-29-2002, 12:16 PM
All,
The jumpstick is here to stay, we all agree but...what about the penalty rule???

Tom_In_Cincy
03-29-2002, 12:19 PM
Penalty RULE? finishing the inning with the jump cue? what if its a 3 piece (like a break-jump cue)? can you screw the 3rd piece back and continue?
I think the rule ought to be ammended to outlaw any cue under 55 inches. Just MHO

Q-guy
03-29-2002, 12:51 PM
The thing is, it does not take any skill either, to miss and as a result maybe get ball in hand through a lucky leave. Like I said we could go back to playing push-out and all fouls. I am was right I guess when I said that you don't like it when you play a safe and they hit the ball rather then you getting ball in hand for an easy win. Want to really talk about something stupid, how about one foul ball in hand in general. There is something that should not exist at all. I would love to see some kind of new rule to cover a foul other then ball in hand. These are top professionals playing by childish rules. Now that I think about 9-ball needs some serious rule changes to call it a championship game. This is not really a debate, I just wanted to give another way of looking at to use of the jump cue. It is no sillier then some of the rules now being used.

TomBrooklyn
03-29-2002, 03:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Steve_Lipsky:</font><hr> -- the jump cue is abused in the WPBA... they rarely make the ball unless it's hanging, and many times just hop the table or miss the hit entirely.
-- But... we have a jump-cue maker saying he taught a non-player to jump within 10 minutes or so
-- Maybe I'm just upset because I spent a lot of time learning to jump with a full stick, and these miserable halfcue stumps took a hard-fought advantage away from me.<hr></blockquote>Steve, the WPBA players are good players. If they have a low success rate with the jump cue, how can it be so easy?

It's true that it's not that hard to get whitey jumping with a jump cue, but it's even easier to kick. Just hit whitey rail first and you've kicked. But if you want to kick, hit a certain ball and pocket it, or move it to a certain place on the table and leave the cue ball in a good defensive position, kicking becomes a high-skill shot.

It's the same with jumping. Jump cue makers and salesmen like to tell you how easy it is to jump. And like Tom In Cincy said, it isn't very hard to get whitey airborne. What the jump cue makers don't emphasize though, and where a distinction is often failed to be made; is that there is a big difference between just getting whitey airborne and making a shot or not selling out. Tom In Cincy admitted this also. I'll bet you spent a long time learning to jump with a full cue, because it's pretty difficult to do well. Consequently, jumping with a full cue is usually a last ditch effort in an otherwise hopeless situation.

A jump cue just brings the jump shot into the realm of reasonable possibility for most players who otherwise would exclude the option as too low-percentage to even attempt. It adds a new dimension (the third dimension) to the game. And jumping balls is fun and looks cool./ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

SpiderMan
03-29-2002, 03:29 PM
Well Steve, I won't say that I disagree with you, but playing the devil's advocate: What about the guy who has achieved the skill to play real lock-down safeties that even a frog can't get out of? You want to take away his hard-fought advantage by making "simple" safeties more effective /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Steve_Lipsky:</font><hr>
Maybe I'm just upset because I spent a lot of time learning to jump with a full stick, and these miserable halfcue stumps took a hard-fought advantage away from me.

- Steve <hr></blockquote>

SpiderMan
03-29-2002, 03:43 PM
We seem to forget the real reason jump cues have proliferated - implementation of the 40-inch rule. Before that, shaft jumps (which are easier to master than jump cues and work at even closer range) were legal for years.

So the jump cue, combined with the rule it evolved in response to, has actually made it harder to jump out of safeties. I'd put my spare shaft up against a bungee any day, but it hasn't been legal for over 5 years.

SpiderMan

Tom_In_Cincy
03-29-2002, 04:18 PM
Tom

It only looks cool when you make the shot and get shape. Otherwise it looks like a poor attempt at playing out of a safe. Kicks and Masses are cool looking too.. but not as bad as jumping over balls making the OB and then flying off the table.

Chris Cass
03-29-2002, 05:08 PM
Hi Cheese,
As far as tournaments go. I've heard of a tourney in Mississippi that enforces that rule.

My thoughts in this discussion is this. The majority of the people I know that don't like the jump cue, simply can't jump with consistency. When I jump, I'm not going for the mere hit but, to pocket the ball. I also can jump with a full cue. I worked hard to be somewhat consistent with both.

Safe is Safe, as far as that goes IMO. I kick also if the shot requires it. The public likes the jump shot, it's exciting to watch. As far as skill goes, sure anyone can jump in 10 min. but you can't be consistent in 5 hrs. It takes time.

I love the masse myself and enjoy a 3 rail kick too. Skill is the key to everything. There's nothing better than to watch a player with all around skill.

Advantages of the jump go to the taller players and you can blame the jump cue on the Philippinos. Them little guys don't miss and they require the jump to become legal.LOL Just kidding. They can kick like mules too.LMAO

Seriously though, my opinion is this. The jump should only be allowed in 9ball. That's only cause it's here to stay for awhile. I'd rather see 2 foul shoot out. I also think straight pool, banks, one pocket, artistic billiards or trick shot exhibitions should be the ones televised.

Every pro I know would use any means to add a shot or a piece of equipment in there arsenal to win. The evolution of pool in general is made for the public. The players either adapt or get ran over.

Still something about ramming a ball into the slate that irks me inside. Also, you should be flogged if you jump in straight pool, that degrades the game IMO.

Best regards,
C.C.

03-29-2002, 07:26 PM
I with you TomB, it is fun and looks cool. I began a campaign many years ago preaching that to pound the ball into the slate and leave it's surface seemed to me to be obnoxious to the game, and conceded that if a full length cue was used the more power to you. I bought a jumper BECAUSE the rules said I could use one and my kick and bank game sucks. I would still accept the rule to change to requiring the play cue for jumpw, 'cause I have a fair talent with the long stick. Untill then I urge all you safety kings to pinch me too tight on the freeze. That's the challenge to those worried about my jump cue and my abilities with it....sells out with the jump attempt but given 2.5-3.0 ball distance is damn effective for both pocketing the ball and getting general shape

Cuemage
03-29-2002, 11:43 PM
I like seeing my opponent jump balls b/c:
1. It's a low percentage shot.
2. It's unlikely they can return me safe.
3. A foul can happen 3 ways (missing the ball, going off the table, hitting wrong ball).

I do own a jump cue, but I use it as a last resort (no kicking lane or if it's a hanger). I feel much more in control of how I leave my opponent if I am kicking.

Question: If you could be a world-class jumper, or a world-class kicker, which would it be?

The Cuemage

cheesemouse
03-29-2002, 11:50 PM
Cuemage,
Kicker, no doubt. Why???I'm not sure anymore. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Alfie
03-30-2002, 02:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris Cass:</font><hr> Still something about ramming a ball into the slate that irks me inside. <hr></blockquote>
The real problem is not the sticks. It's the jump shot itself that doesn't belong in billiards. Alas, I think both are here to stay.

Doctor_D
04-01-2002, 08:22 AM
Good morning:

Following months of practice, as well as direction from my coach, I have reached a point where I can consistently jump from a distance of Two (2) inches to Three (3) diamonds accurately. No balls flying off the table. Object ball contacted as intended. Object ball pocketed 40% to 50% of the time. For myself, since it has become a very valuable tool in my game with a Bunjee Jump Cue, I find the jump shots useful and strategic. However, as I witness others "trying" to jump, there are too many people jumping and/or attempting to jump who should not be.

So, with all that having been said, I am in favor of jumping because I am good at it. I have also found that pushing out to a jump shot has also worked well for me when I have no clean shot after the break.

Dr. D.

Chris Cass
04-01-2002, 11:11 AM
Good Job Dr. D.,
You should push out to a jump or a bank. You should never jump if hooked on the snap and have the option to push out. I've seen players giving up the option to push out. That's crazy.

I myself may jump once in a set to seven. That may be even over estimating. The shot doesn't come up all that often, for me. Your coach knows his or her stuff though, the shot is worth the effort, even for once a set.

There are times when you can jump and go three rails for the kick too. You just have to let your imagination fly. LOL I'm one sick puppy, I know.

Regards,
C.C.

Alfie
04-01-2002, 11:30 AM
&gt;&gt;&gt; Following months of practice, as well as direction from my coach, I have reached a point where I can consistently jump from a distance of Two (2) inches to Three (3) diamonds accurately. No balls flying off the table. Object ball contacted as intended. Object ball pocketed 40% to 50% of the time. &lt;&lt;&lt;

very good. Do you ever employ the throw technique where you release the cue and catch it as it bounces back?

&gt;&gt;&gt; Lead, Follow or Get Out of My Way !!! &lt;&lt;&lt;

Watch your step.

04-01-2002, 11:41 AM
Steve, I think there's a trade-off involved with jump cues. It's definitely easier to grab the cue and jump than to know one of a hundred diamond systems. That part is true. But a jump shot is a stone-cold sell-out shot if the player only knows how to get the ball airborne and nothing more. Just knowing how to jump isn't good enough. There's a lot of skill involved in knowing how to jump with different speeds and spins. Even if you make the ball you still have to get shape or at least make sure you see the next ball. Not easy to do when you're jumping into a cut shot.

Also, I think jump cues help eliminate some of the bad luck. I remember in past years before we used them, many times when my opponent would get me on 3 fouls, the first foul was often the result of a bad miss and a lucky roll. The next two fouls was my opponent taking advantage of his good luck. I like the option of being able to jump out of jail when you were put there purely by your opponents good fortune rather than their skill.

Fran

Doctor_D
04-01-2002, 12:03 PM
Good afternoon:

I have learned to use the Dart Stroke which has worked well for me. However, I do not release the cue after contract.

Dr. D.