PDA

View Full Version : Pool or not Pool.



Qtec
06-19-2003, 07:43 AM
3 cushion billiards is not POOL . If you cant put balls in pockets its another game . Or not.

The only true pool games are 9ball, 14/1 and 8ball. All the other games are made up for for guys that couldnt play real pool .
I,m not knocking the other games , they all have their merits but they are other games . Or not .

Q

nAz
06-19-2003, 07:49 AM
3C i think is more challenging then pocket billiards you need to have a good imagination and a good stroke.
And what is wrong with Bank pool or 1 Pocket? those are really good games.

9 Ball Girl
06-19-2003, 07:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> 3 cushion billiards is not POOL . <hr /></blockquote>3C Billiards may not be pool but it sure as hell is in the "food group". It compliments the other. I've been taking 3C Billiards lessons where I play and it has helped me immensely when it comes to kicking or getting out of a safe in 9 ball. My stroke has improved too. JMO

bolo
06-19-2003, 07:57 AM
The are older and more challenging games the 14-1 nine ball and eight ball that are not played anymore. What makes you think they are the original games? Even the rules they are currently played by are bastardized.

Qtec
06-19-2003, 09:08 AM
If you want to improve pool,s image ,you have to make it more exciting .Its what people want to see on TV that will determine in what direction pool goes .People want excitment. The ordinary guy doesnt want tactical battles and lots of safety,s .Bang ,bang ,bang is what they want , and thats 9ball.
Q

thepoolnerd
06-19-2003, 09:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> 3 cushion billiards is not POOL . If you cant put balls in pockets its another game . Or not.

The only true pool games are 9ball, 14/1 and 8ball. All the other games are made up for for guys that couldnt play real pool .
I,m not knocking the other games , they all have their merits but they are other games . Or not .

Q <hr /></blockquote>

I can tell that you've never played 3C. You'll put more thought into one 3C shot than about an hour of nine ball. If it was made up for people that can't play real pool like 8, 9 and 14.1, how come early on the first tables never had pockets? How do you not include one pocket? It was not made up for people that can't play "real pool", because it was invented over 100 years before 8 and 9 ball. Maybe your point is that if the tables don't have pockets it shouldn't be called pool. I'll grant you that. I challenge you to find someone who is half way proficient in "real pool", 3C and 1 pocket and will tell you anything other than: 3C is the most challenging, followed by 1 pocket, then the other games.

ceebee
06-19-2003, 09:21 AM
I just thought I was a good player, until I tried my hand at 3 Cushion Billiards. Ha, I got lucky once &amp; hit 3 billiards in a row. I would hit one or two then go several innings without hitting squat. If you've ever been fortunate enough to watch a great 3 Cushion Billiards match, then you know them Cats have control of the cue ball.

The thought kept running thru my mind, if I had a good grasp of this knowledge, my 9 ball game would be a great deal better.

By the way Pool ain't Pool either..., that's a slang term like Dame is for a Woman. The proper name for the games is Billiards &amp; Pocket Billiards.

Good day...

eg8r
06-19-2003, 01:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
And what is wrong with Bank pool or 1 Pocket? those are really good games. <hr /></blockquote> Considering his previous posts, he is oblivious about 1p.

Rotation is also another pool game. If you consider 9-ball, then you have to add in 10-ball and Rotation.

eg8r

06-19-2003, 03:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>Rotation is also another pool game. If you consider 9-ball, then you have to add in 10-ball and Rotation.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>Not to mention 7-ball, 6-ball, Hawaii, Golf, Cowboy, and a host of other pocket billiard games. Perhaps he meant to call out the most common games, but I agree leaving out 1P, bank pool, and rotation is fairly egregious...

bolo
06-19-2003, 03:42 PM
I would not go that far, in fact I feel 3-C is easier to become good at then pool. I play both, (3-c high run 12) With a pool backgroung billiards came very easy. Most of the 3-C players I know can't play pool a lick.

06-19-2003, 08:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> 3 cushion billiards is not POOL . If you cant put balls in pockets its another game . Or not.

The only true pool games are 9ball, 14/1 and 8ball. All the other games are made up for for guys that couldnt play real pool .
I,m not knocking the other games , they all have their merits but they are other games . Or not .

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Dear qtec, saying 3 cushion is not pool has to be the dumbest thing I have ever seen in print before. What are you guys smokin over there. You want to see how hard pool can be, go play cribbage and try and run 2 or 3 racks, you never will. Let me tell you how hard rotation is, the world record I heard was only 4 racks, i think efren and fast larry co hold that one. You need an education, the world of pool is much larger than you think. 3 cushion and snooker are much harder games than pool. the easiest game of them all is 9 ball, that is why it is so popular, you can make one ball and win, how hard is that, and even you can understand that game.
The ice mon

highsea
06-19-2003, 11:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> I would not go that far, in fact I feel 3-C is easier to become good at then pool. I play both, (3-c high run 12) With a pool backgroung billiards came very easy. Most of the 3-C players I know can't play pool a lick. <hr /></blockquote>

Bolo, you are the only 3C player I have ever heard say that. I can play pool, but I am a laugh when I play 3C. Virtually every 3C player I know used to play pool, and moved on to 3C for the added challenge. The CB control of the top 3C players is nothing short of magic to me.

A player can get along pretty well in most pool games without knowing much about diamond systems and counting. A 3C player cannot even seriously approach the table without it.

3C is to pool like chess is to checkers.

JMO
-CM

highsea
06-19-2003, 11:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote gna:</font><hr> You want to see how hard pool can be, go play cribbage and try and run 2 or 3 racks, you never will. The ice mon <hr /></blockquote>

WTF? Cribbage?? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
-CM

Steve Lipsky
06-19-2003, 11:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> Virtually every 3C player I know used to play pool, and moved on to 3C for the added challenge.

JMO
-CM <hr /></blockquote>

It's funny... we pool players say that the reason most 3-C players picked up the game is because they realized they could never compete at pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

They're obviously very different games. It is much more difficult to score in billiards than to do so in pool, but this works both ways. Yes, each point is harder-earned in 3-C. But the penalty for missing in billiards isn't even in the same ballpark as in pool.

I play in a 3-C league, as well as some pool leagues, and I can tell you that (for me personally) I've never felt any pressure in a billiards game until right at the very end. I played a match on Tuesday night, and even though I was playing a very strong player, I knew I was going to get approximately 50 innings. How can you feel pressure like that?

Compare that to two strong 14.1 players, who can each count on his opponent missing between 0 and 4 shots in the game. As I said, this is tempered by the fact that it's so much easier to pocket a ball than to score a billiard. So the games are very, very different.

To not include 1-P as one of the majors is a little odd. I can't stand the game, but I can appreciate it.

- Steve

highsea
06-19-2003, 11:54 PM
You make a good point about the penalty of a miss. In 3C it is definitely not the disaster it is in pool. There's no such thing as break and run in a 3C match, so you can't get stuck in your chair and watch helplessly as your opponent runs racks on you.

I guess what I was thinking about was the higher level difficulty of making the shots. In 3C if I get 2 in a row I am happy, 3 is a real celebration.

I guess that's why I play pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

-CM

bolo
06-20-2003, 01:09 AM
One of the things about billiards you always have a shot when you come to the table. Most shots can be made multiple ways and it is sometimes hard to tell if that was the way the guy was really playing the shot. Most all shots repeat themselves on the table. It is the same shot even though it may be laying differently, once you recognize it. You play position and no matter how bad you mess up you still have a shot. I could go on but my point is, it is a very forgiving game. I know old guys that don't even have a stroke anymore still play at .5 or better. Margin for error is big on so many shots especially when the balls are near the rail or in the corner. It is not a subject for debate just to someone who never played the game it looks so much harder then it is. I think the main thing about billiards over pool is, the game is really a lot of fun, that is the biggest attraction to me. I am not so sure about your point about missing. You can go dry just a few innings and the guy does 4, 2, 5, and 25% of the game is gone.

The Watchdog
06-20-2003, 01:09 AM
"Pool" is a word derived from the betting rooms of the horse tracks of the turn of the century. The races were extremely popular with the men about town, and were frequently full. Owners installed pocket billiard tables for the men while they were participating in the betting pools.

These betting pools now occupied the same rooms as the pocket billiard tables. Hence the term pool room, and the negative connotations.

Billiards was around long before pocket billiards, and I think the change is obvious, in fact billiards has been around at least twice as long as pocket billiards. The control of the cueball that was available at the invention of the leather tip(Mingaud?) at around the turn of the century made pocket billiards an interesting, and different, game than billiards.

However, now, the term "pool" generally refers to pocket billiards, while "billiards" refers to billiard games.

06-20-2003, 10:35 AM
To: Highseas, I can see you have never played Sang Lee, you are playing him a match to 50, he is ahead, you just post a world class run of 15 to catch up 35-35 and sit down &amp; up he comes. You know, the mayor knows, the pope knows, everyone knows he is going 15 &amp; out on you. You are going down in your chair and there is nothing you can do about it.
The Ice Mon

highsea
06-20-2003, 11:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote gna:</font><hr> To: Highseas, I can see you have never played Sang Lee, you are playing him a match to 50, he is ahead, you just post a world class run of 15 to catch up 35-35 and sit down &amp; up he comes. You know, the mayor knows, the pope knows, everyone knows he is going 15 &amp; out on you. You are going down in your chair and there is nothing you can do about it.
The Ice Mon <hr /></blockquote>

Nope, never played Sang Lee. Never played Ceulemans, Blomdahl, or Habraken.

Never had a lesson from Minnesota Fats or Willy Hoppe. Never played Mosconi, Archer, Grady, Strickland, Varner, Souquet, Efren, Sigel, Rambow, Rempe, Mizerak, or Buddy Hall.

I've never won a Major Championship. I've never played one-pocket. I've never had a run of 100, or even 50. I only own one cue stick. I've never had someone offer to back me for $1000.00 in a race to 9. I've never been to the US Open or any trade expo. I don't own a pool table, because I live on a boat.

I don't gamble, except for low stakes, and I pretty much break even. I don't know Karate, and I don't have a pool playing dog.

I don't hide behind an anonymous account, and anyone that wants to come to Seattle and play will be welcomed. I will prove how cr*ppy I play, and shake their hand when we are done. If they want to play 3C, I will play that also.

I have no pretentions about my abilities. I just happen to love pool. The 3C players I know are very good pool players also. I consider the game very challenging and fun, and I will continue to play, but I doubt seriously I will ever match up with Sang Lee in a race to 50.

-CM

Qtec
06-20-2003, 09:36 PM
They are different games .3 cushion is about QB control and 'pool'is about potting balls .I play a decent game of snooker so i do find 9b easy. Because the degree of difficulty in 3c and snooker is high ,it means that the best player almost always wins. In 9b you can be twice as good as the other guy and still lose . There is more pressure on every shot .Every shot is critical . Its not about potting its about not missing.
In Holland they play 3c with bigger balls .this makes it even harder .Different table , different balls and different objectives. That to me isnt the same game .

Q

06-21-2003, 01:37 AM
Sorry, but I have to say this is one of the most asinine statements I've ever seen on CCB. The idea that this opinion was not coaxed out of you as a reply to a previous post, but was volunteered by yourself as a statement of fact clearly indicates your poor understanding of 3C as well as pool.

First of all, pool (or pocket BILLIARDS) goes back centuries. All three games you mentioned (14.1, 9 ball, and 8 ball) are relatively new games. 14.1 was invented around the turn of the century and was not predominantly played until the teens. 9 ball and 8 ball did not become popular until after around 1940. Snooker, however, was made popular by British officers stationed in India in the mid 1800's. Bank Pool and 1P have been popular as long as, if not longer, than 9 ball or 8 ball.

Efren Reyes, arguably the best pool player in the world in the last 15 years, grew up playing rotation - another game that's been around longer than the ones you mentioned. He's made dozens of statements indicating that compared to rotation, 9 ball is a kid's game. As a matter of fact, Efren NEVER practices 9ball. His practice routine is "double rack rotation". He spreads TWO racks of balls on the table and runs out 1-1-2-2-3-3-4-4 etc, etc.

As far as your comments regarding 3c, I'll pose to the CCB'ers this scenario: There are two players, Player A has played nothing but 3 cushion his entire life. Player B has played nothing but pool his entire life. These players match up. They play one 9B race to nine for a thousand, with the pool player spotting the 3C player three games on the wire (a one-third spot). Then, they play 3C to thirty-points for a grand, with the 3C player spotting the pool player 10 points (again, a one-third spot). WHO WOULD YOU STAKE? I'll take the 3C player EVERY TIME.

In closing, I just want to say that if your play of the game is as bad as your understanding of the game, then I'll stake the pool playing dog I keep hearing about against you anytime.

highsea
06-21-2003, 04:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote shoop:</font><hr> Sorry, but...snip...
<hr /></blockquote>
Psyche!!

Want me to take this one Q?

-CM

Qtec
06-21-2003, 04:47 AM
Dont let me stop you .
asinine- ezelachtige, kopig. only got a English/Dutch dictionary . donkey like / stubborn / dumb ?

Q

Steve Lipsky
06-21-2003, 11:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote shoop:</font><hr> As far as your comments regarding 3c, I'll pose to the CCB'ers this scenario: There are two players, Player A has played nothing but 3 cushion his entire life. Player B has played nothing but pool his entire life. These players match up. They play one 9B race to nine for a thousand, with the pool player spotting the 3C player three games on the wire (a one-third spot). Then, they play 3C to thirty-points for a grand, with the 3C player spotting the pool player 10 points (again, a one-third spot). WHO WOULD YOU STAKE? I'll take the 3C player EVERY TIME.
<hr /></blockquote>

It's a silly proposition - the house would be the only winner. Neither player would have a chance in hell of beating the other one in his weaker game.

I have seen pool players trying to play 3-C for the first time, and 3-C players playing pool for the first time, and they're both pretty ugly.

- Steve

Fran Crimi
06-21-2003, 05:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> I would not go that far, in fact I feel 3-C is easier to become good at then pool. <hr /></blockquote>

Virtually every 3C player I know used to play pool, and moved on to 3C for the added challenge.

A player can get along pretty well in most pool games without knowing much about diamond systems and counting.

<font color="blue"> True. If you don't mind giving up ball in hand a lot in 9-ball.

<font color="black"> A 3C player cannot even seriously approach the table without it.

<font color="blue"> Well...Willie Hoppe did OK, didn't he?????

<font color="black"> 3C is to pool like chess is to checkers.

<font color="blue"> Holy smokes! LOL

<font color="black"> JMO
-CM <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I think you're both way off the mark here. Bolo: Did it ever occur to you that maybe 3-C players don't play good pool because they don't have the desire to learn the game and that they're content playing their game? That's what I found to be true. Many players who start off playing 3-C, like it and prefer to stay with it. It's not because pool is so hard to learn.

So, CM, not all 3-C players shoot pool. I once played a set of 9-ball with Sang Lee. I'm sure it was his first and last set. Well....let's just say he got great position. LOL. He was a good sport about it but he struggled all the way through.

Here's what I've found:


1.) There are players who start out playing 3-C and stay only with 3-C.

2.) There are players who start out with pool and stay only with pool.

3.) There are players who start out playing pool and develop an interest in 3-C and eventually play both. Some enjoy 3-C so much that they switch to playing predominately 3-C but can still hold their own on a pool table. Others stay mainly with pool but enjoy a good game of 3-C occasionally.

4.) The more obscure and rare group is the group who starts out playing 3-C and desires to learn pool. Not too many of them around, not because they feel pool is difficult. I think it's more of an elitist attitude. The purist 3-C players feel theirs is the sport of kings and pool is the lower of the games. It's totally a social attitude and has nothing to do with game difficulty, although I'm sure they'll tell you 3-C is much more difficult.

They're two different games.

Fran

Qtec
06-21-2003, 08:33 PM
Fran [ QUOTE ]
They're two different games.

<hr /></blockquote>
Thank you Fran.
I have played snooker and billiards [ on a snooker table ] and believe me , they are not the same .
Are the balls the same size in 3c and 9b? This would make it easier.



Qtec

highsea
06-21-2003, 09:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <font color="blue"> Well...Willie Hoppe did OK, didn't he????? </font color><hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red"> I never saw Hoppe play. It would surprise me if he didn't have some kind of system, but I'll take your word for it. </font color>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr>
<font color="black"> 3C is to pool like chess is to checkers.
<hr /></blockquote>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
<font color="blue"> Holy smokes! LOL </font color> <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red"> OK, poor analogy. I was trying to say that they are different games, and IMO 3C is (at least for me) more difficult to learn than pool. </font color>
-CM <hr /></blockquote>
So, CM, not all 3-C players shoot pool. I once played a set of 9-ball with Sang Lee. I'm sure it was his first and last set. Well....let's just say he got great position. LOL. He was a good sport about it but he struggled all the way through.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Fran, I hope you don't think I was denigrating pool!

I was just commenting that the "average" pool player can gain some level of proficiency by practice alone, without knowing any diamond systems, where that knowledge is a practical requirement in 3C. At least for me, this makes the game (3C) more difficult to learn. I also find shot selection more difficult in 3C than pool, but that may be just due to the fact that I have played a lot more pool.

When a pool player gets to your level, I would imagine that you would need a very solid understanding of the diamond systems to be anywhere near competitive. Learning to count through playing 3C has helped my pool game a great deal.

Also the 3C players I know have all played pool first. That may just be a reflection of the scarcity of billiard tables compared to pool tables in my part of the country. I wasn't saying *all* 3C players play pool.

And finally I want to say thanks to you and and Carol and Sarah for taking the time to give us the updates and posts on the WPBA. I enjoy hearing the players' perspectives. Good showing in Peoria. I heard you played very well. That Karen's deadly.

-CM

highsea
06-21-2003, 10:10 PM
Shoop, I think you might be preaching to the choir here. Qtec has played all those games you mentioned. (with the exception of double-rack-rotation, I would venture)

His initial post was of the "is it or isn't it variety". He was trying to draw out opinions, rather than to state his own. I would say he was successful, wouldn't you?

Q knows the difference between billiards and pocket billiards. That's why the first sentence said POOL in big caps.

He was just funnin. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

-CM

Fran Crimi
06-21-2003, 10:38 PM
Hey CM,

Thanks for taking the time to explain. Nah, I didn't think you were dissing pool. I just wanted to nudge you and bolo a little about the dangers of talking about pool in absolutes. There are very few absolutes in pool. With maybe the exception of physics, everything we discuss is really just personal experience.

The story about Willie Hoppe is that when he wrote his book he supposedly had to have someone write the section on diamond systems for him because he never used any. I also heard that Sang Lee doesn't like to use systems and plays mainly by feel, but I don't have a verification on that from Sang. I will ask him the next time I see him.

I'm glad you enjoyed our road stories.

Thanks again,

Fran

06-22-2003, 01:00 AM
Hi miss crimi you sure is purty, Bryan shoemaker wrote it for hoppe in 1941 in the book billiards as it should be played. Yes this is true about Sang lee, you can ask him if you want, if you can find him.
The ice mon