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DoomCue
06-19-2003, 02:29 PM
I get the feeling that everybody hates Charlie Williams and the UPA because they *gasp* want to change the state of men's pool. What is so sinful about that? I would think that the UPA would be getting tons of support, but obviously that's not the case. They've been facing opposition from day one, which seems illogical to me.

I defy anybody to say that men's pool is fine and well right now. If it isn't, then why not try to make some changes? Sure, the boat's going to get rocked; most people are resistant to change. Personally, I welcome any attempt to change the way men's pool is run. If the attempt works, then great. If it fails, what has been lost? The state of men's pool is such that it can't get any worse.

It seems that I'm in a very small minority with my opinion, and for the life of me, I can't figure out why that is. Maybe I'm right and the UPA is trying to turn pool into something that is enjoyable for fans and makes money for promoters, sponsors, and, most importantly, the players. Or, maybe I'm wrong and CW is just a power-hungry tyrant bent on taking over the world. I, for one, would like to give the UPA a chance to make good on their mission statement (which can be found here (http://upatour.org/menu/company.htm)). What does men's pool have to lose?

Tom_In_Cincy
06-19-2003, 03:01 PM
Is the POOL industry in need of a Men's POOL Players organization?

The UPA hasn't been around long enough to be very benificial to its members. But, that may change, one way or the other. CW needs to take a marketing and communications course. The UPA mission statement is OK. but IMO weak.

Only the top 25% of Pro Players can make a decent living playing in tournaments. If its that high.

How important are the Pros to the industry is the real question. How many of the pool playing amatures know enough about the pros to name more than 10 names? (Not including Mosconi and Fats) Is this really important for the industry to survive and grow?

There are only a handful of Pro tournaments that have more than a 5 year life span. (Not talking about the women Pros.. remember this is a UPA question)

When was the last time a NON-Pool Industry sponser was the major sponser of a pool tournament? Do you remember what happened to the Camel Pro Tour?

What is there to be gained by supporting a Players Association of Pro Pool players for the average pool player? And, what could a non-member do to support the UPA?

So far, I don't remember the UPA even asking for support from non-UPA players.

bolo
06-19-2003, 04:06 PM
Has no bearing on the pool industry at all. Whether there is a pro tour or not, just as many players will be playing in local pool rooms, bars and on leagues. Pro players are not at all important to the popularity of pool. I don't think they would agree though. Most pros have a high opinion of themselves. Most everything done by the pros is selfserving, they are very short sighted in my opinion.

DoomCue
06-19-2003, 04:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Is the POOL industry in need of a Men's POOL Players organization?

<font color="blue">I'm not really talking about the pool industry as a whole, I'm referring to the men's pro game. But in response to your question, I think yes, the pool industry does need a men's pro poolplayers organization. Popularity of a sport can only be increased by the popularity of its players. Look at men's basketball. The NBA was near financial ruin until Magic, Bird, and Jordan became household names. Now, money is thrown at basketball players so much, they don't even have to step on the pro court and they're mega-millionairs. There has to be a starting point for men's pool, and I think the UPA is on the right track if they're given a chance.</font color>

The UPA hasn't been around long enough to be very benificial to its members. But, that may change, one way or the other. CW needs to take a marketing and communications course. The UPA mission statement is OK. but IMO weak.

<font color="blue">Why does CW need to take a marketing and communications course?</font color>

Only the top 25% of Pro Players can make a decent living playing in tournaments. If its that high.

<font color="blue">That's one of the things that needs to change, and I believe that's one of the things the UPA is trying to change by increasing the popularity of the sport. You can't say that only 25% of the NHL, or PGA, or MLPBA, etc., make a living. Pro pool players shouldn't have to settle for that, either. Pool is one of the most popular games in the world, yet being one of the best at it serves no financial reward. That makes it kind of pointless to even want to be great player. You can be an average major leaguer and still make millions of dollars. If you're an average pro pool player, you're still having to flip burgers or run hustles just to survive.</font color>

How important are the Pros to the industry is the real question. How many of the pool playing amatures know enough about the pros to name more than 10 names? (Not including Mosconi and Fats) Is this really important for the industry to survive and grow?

<font color="blue">That's really the problem, isn't it? Isn't it sad that most people believe Minnesota Fats was a world champion player? It's even worse that most people outside of Asia don't know Efren Reyes is 100 times better than that loudmouth ever dreamed of being. Golf is now one of the biggest sports in the US, with millions of dollars in purses at tournaments. Where was it before Tiger? Golf was stagnating, just as men's pool is now. We need a Tiger Woods for pool. And that's where growth comes from, because it ain't the game itself that needs to be sold to average joe, it's the players! The NBA Finals had their lowest ratings ever this year. Why? Because there were no "superstar" players in the eyes of the fans (Read - no Kobe, no Shaq, etc.). Hopefully, the UPA, being an organization by the players for the players, can change public perception of the players.</font color>

There are only a handful of Pro tournaments that have more than a 5 year life span. (Not talking about the women Pros.. remember this is a UPA question)

When was the last time a NON-Pool Industry sponser was the major sponser of a pool tournament? Do you remember what happened to the Camel Pro Tour?

<font color="blue">There were many factors in the demise of the Camel Pro Tour, most notably the fact that the tour was sponsored by a company that couldn't advertise on TV. Live and learn, and hopefully the UPA doesn't make that mistake again.</font color>

What is there to be gained by supporting a Players Association of Pro Pool players for the average pool player? And, what could a non-member do to support the UPA?

So far, I don't remember the UPA even asking for support from non-UPA players.

<font color="blue">How does anybody support any other sports organization? Show up to events, buy licensed merchandise, and spend money on the sponsors' wares. Hopefully, the UPA will be good enough to make fans want to support pool just as fans do for basketball, hockey, baseball, football, etc.</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

I seriously doubt the UPA is out to harm the game of pool. These are professional pool players, looking to increase the popularity of their sport and increase their financial rewards. The WPBA has managed to do those things for the women's pro game, hopefully the UPA can do the same for the men's pro game. I think the UPA definitely has that in mind, since the UPA contract is based on the WPBA contract. It's going to be slow going, in any case, due to the resistance the UPA is facing, but I look forward to the day when I see pool players earning millions of dollars a year.

Tom_In_Cincy
06-19-2003, 04:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DoomCue:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Is the POOL industry in need of a Men's POOL Players organization?
<font color="blue">I'm not really talking about the pool industry as a whole, I'm referring to the men's pro game. But in response to your question, I think yes, the pool industry does need a men's pro poolplayers organization. Popularity of a sport can only be increased by the popularity of its players. Look at men's basketball. The NBA was near financial ruin until Magic, Bird, and Jordan became household names. Now, money is thrown at basketball players so much, they don't even have to step on the pro court and they're mega-millionairs. There has to be a starting point for men's pool, and I think the UPA is on the right track if they're given a chance.</font color>

<font color="red"> Comparing apples to oranges, there is a huge fan support base for PRO sports (Pool is not considered a top level Professional sport, like the NBA, MLB, NFL or NHL) Where are you going to draw fans from for all the money (advertising dollars) when they continue to watch and attend the MAJOR Sports? </font color>

The UPA hasn't been around long enough to be very benificial to its members. But, that may change, one way or the other. CW needs to take a marketing and communications course. The UPA mission statement is OK. but IMO weak.

<font color="blue">Why does CW need to take a marketing and communications course?</font color>
<font color="red"> Apparenly you aren't familiar with CW's post here and on other forums. CW needs to address quesestions and issues more politically correct. Marketing and communication skills are lacking IMO </font color>
Only the top 25% of Pro Players can make a decent living playing in tournaments. If its that high.

<font color="blue">That's one of the things that needs to change, and I believe that's one of the things the UPA is trying to change by increasing the popularity of the sport. You can't say that only 25% of the NHL, or PGA, or MLPBA, etc., make a living. Pro pool players shouldn't have to settle for that, either. Pool is one of the most popular games in the world, yet being one of the best at it serves no financial reward. That makes it kind of pointless to even want to be great player. You can be an average major leaguer and still make millions of dollars. If you're an average pro pool player, you're still having to flip burgers or run hustles just to survive.</font color>
<font color="red"> Exactly how is the UPA increasing the popularity of the sport? I am curious!! And once again, you compare a MAJOR Sport to Pool, this is not accuate. There is a HUGE fan base for Baseball, Football, Golf and Basketball, Advertisers can only support so many sports, TV only makes money and shows the product (sports) if the advertising dollar are there. </font color>

How important are the Pros to the industry is the real question. How many of the pool playing amatures know enough about the pros to name more than 10 names? (Not including Mosconi and Fats) Is this really important for the industry to survive and grow?

<font color="blue">That's really the problem, isn't it? Isn't it sad that most people believe Minnesota Fats was a world champion player? It's even worse that most people outside of Asia don't know Efren Reyes is 100 times better than that loudmouth ever dreamed of being. Golf is now one of the biggest sports in the US, with millions of dollars in purses at tournaments. Where was it before Tiger? Golf was stagnating, just as men's pool is now. We need a Tiger Woods for pool. And that's where growth comes from, because it ain't the game itself that needs to be sold to average joe, it's the players! The NBA Finals had their lowest ratings ever this year. Why? Because there were no "superstar" players in the eyes of the fans (Read - no Kobe, no Shaq, etc.). Hopefully, the UPA, being an organization by the players for the players, can change public perception of the players.</font color>
<font color="red">This might be a factor for advertisers, but what kind of player in pool come come close to the impact of a Tiger Woods? </font color>
There are only a handful of Pro tournaments that have more than a 5 year life span. (Not talking about the women Pros.. remember this is a UPA question)

When was the last time a NON-Pool Industry sponser was the major sponser of a pool tournament? Do you remember what happened to the Camel Pro Tour?

<font color="blue">There were many factors in the demise of the Camel Pro Tour, most notably the fact that the tour was sponsored by a company that couldn't advertise on TV. Live and learn, and hopefully the UPA doesn't make that mistake again.</font color>
<font color="red"> So Far, the list of sponsers for the UPA (off their website) is limited to Pool Industry groups. Why would a NON-Pool Sponser show up for a MEN's club of poor players? </font color>

What is there to be gained by supporting a Players Association of Pro Pool players for the average pool player? And, what could a non-member do to support the UPA?

So far, I don't remember the UPA even asking for support from non-UPA players.

<font color="blue">How does anybody support any other sports organization? Show up to events, buy licensed merchandise, and spend money on the sponsors' wares. Hopefully, the UPA will be good enough to make fans want to support pool just as fans do for basketball, hockey, baseball, football, etc.</font color> <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red"> The UPA is only sanctioning events that agree to UPA rules. I don't see how this will help gate attendence (the UPA is currently pushing for a boycott of the World Pool event in NY)How does this help POOL? the Fans or sponsers? </font color>

I seriously doubt the UPA is out to harm the game of pool. These are professional pool players, looking to increase the popularity of their sport and increase their financial rewards. The WPBA has managed to do those things for the women's pro game, hopefully the UPA can do the same for the men's pro game. I think the UPA definitely has that in mind, since the UPA contract is based on the WPBA contract. It's going to be slow going, in any case, due to the resistance the UPA is facing, but I look forward to the day when I see pool players earning millions of dollars a year. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> I'm not sure that any of the average pool players even care that the PROS earn Millions of dollars, except that it makes the Pool Industry's products cost more.

Pool's popularity is not dependent on the PROS. Its the game that attracts the individual. The industry is not suffering because of the Pros lack of a men's organization.

Why is it so important to have POOL as big as GOLF? What can it possibly do for you or me?

It can only make the few top players richer (like I care) or the industry richer, what can it do for the average player?

If you think that if Pool's image were better, that you and your game would be more respected? or, that your standing in the pool genre would change somehow more 'positive', or that you could see (on TV) events that you couldn't attend in person, or that somehow advertisers would see the 'light' and consider pool players a target for making more money?

I still just don't understand why this is so important.
At this point I am beginning to care even less.

</font color>

John in NH
06-19-2003, 09:15 PM
Hi Tom,

I've included my answers to your questions as regards the UPA Tour, it's obvious we have a difference of opinion.

Is the POOL industry in need of a Men's POOL Players organization? Absolutely yes, creates more interest in pool, that's what it's all about.

The UPA hasn't been around long enough to be very benificial to its members. But, that may change, one way or the other. CW needs to take a marketing and communications course. The UPA mission statement is OK. but IMO weak.

The UPA is a young organization that is trying to find it's way into professional pool, I believe it is on the right track, the professional player needs a catalyst or someone who will support the interests of the professional player in the world of pool.

Only the top 25% of Pro Players can make a decent living playing in tournaments. If its that high.

Yes that is true but the UPA needs to be given a chance, only time will tell if they will be successful. I don't think it's fair to blame one person (CW) on the failure of the UPA, there is a Board of Directors behind him.

How important are the Pros to the industry is the real question. How many of the pool playing amatures know enough about the pros to name more than 10 names? (Not including Mosconi and Fats) Is this really important for the industry to survive and grow?

I'm not sure how you could include fats in the same breath as mosconi (he's not in the same league). The pros are the elite of the industry and they are very important, the amateurs have their own organization which has gone out of it's way to restrict the pro players from participating with them. At least the UPA does not exclude amateurs from participating in pro tournaments.

There are only a handful of Pro tournaments that have more than a 5 year life span. (Not talking about the women Pros.. remember this is a UPA question)

The fact is the UPA has not been around for five years, your question is without merit.

When was the last time a NON-Pool Industry sponser was the major sponser of a pool tournament? Do you remember what happened to the Camel Pro Tour?

How can you compare the UPA Tour with the Camel Pro Tour, I don't know of any non pool industry sponsor's in the UPA Tour.

What is there to be gained by supporting a Players Association of Pro Pool players for the average pool player? And, what could a non-member do to support the UPA?

An average player can join the UPA Tour as a standard member (amateur) this will help to show support for the professional player and will give the organization the resources that it needs to solicit pool venues that are geared to the pool playing professional, another way is to attend the various pool venues that are sponsored by the UPA tour, supporting the vendors who advertise with the UPA is always a plus.

So far, I don't remember the UPA even asking for support from non-UPA players.

Anyone can join the UPA tour, I've been a member for over a year and am proud of it.

Regards,

John

Tom_In_Cincy
06-20-2003, 08:07 AM
Guys,

I really hope that I am wrong about my comments and opinions about the UPA, I would think that it could only be a 'positive' for the pool world to have a successful Pro Men's orgainization. Time will tell, truthfully, I didn't give the UPA this long to last.

Maybe if the UPA could make some more impacting progress, we could all be happy.

Seems like each time the UPA enters into a 'sanctioning' discussion, it's all 'negative'. Maybe it would be best if the UPA would keep these discussions private, until all issues are closed.

I just don't share your feeling (right now anyway) about what the UPA can do for its members or pool in general.

Ken
06-20-2003, 10:18 AM
I have no idea who's saying what here. We have quotes inside quotes inside quotes.

Anyway, someone said the UPA never asked for money from non-players. That could not be more wrong. There are many who signed up at the $5,000 level because they thought the UPA was a great idea.

There are plenty of people who support the UPA. There are those who point to the WPBA and say the men need a similar organization. The WPBA works for its members by soliciting sponsors and sites to host tournaments. That's the sort of thing that the UPA could do to help its members.

There is a big difference in the organizations, however. There are few independent pro events available to the women. The men have many tournaments to play in but the promoters are not making a lot of money off these events. It seems that the UPA leadership has decided that it needs to take over the independent events to make sure the players get paid.

The UPA leadership has decided that if an independent promoter will not accept its terms the UPA will refuse to permit any of its members to play in the tournament. This is what has many people worried including some of those $5,000 members who at first thought the UPA was a great idea

The UPA leadership thinks they are the only ones who care about the pro players. The fact is that the promoters are involved in tournaments primarily to provide opportunities for the pros. Many of them are players themsleves and have the players' best interests in mind. They would love to make a huge profit by holding events and sharing the money with the pros but there just isn't that much money there. So the UPA is now fighting with the promoters and has them scared and mad as hell.
KenCT

dardusm
06-20-2003, 11:21 AM
I just think that Charlie is going about it the wrong way. The sport is too brittle at the moment to be alienating potential supporters. The key is patience. For example, the US open has had some problems but the UPA should support the staple tournament of the sport. I understand that there are things that need to be changed but it must be done in an intelligent way not the my way or the highway routine. Also, I blame the industry as a whole for not supporting professional pool enough. I am always amazed at the lack of vision and support from those who would benefit the most. If pool's own industry doesn't support a tour then why on earth would others offer support? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif JMHO

DoomCue
06-20-2003, 01:06 PM
I think you misunderstand my comparisons of pool to major sports. You said,

[ QUOTE ]
Comparing apples to oranges, there is a huge fan support base for PRO sports (Pool is not considered a top level Professional sport, like the NBA, MLB, NFL or NHL) Where are you going to draw fans from for all the money (advertising dollars) when they continue to watch and attend the MAJOR Sports? <hr /></blockquote>

The idea is to turn pool into a major sport. Golf has done it, NASCAR has done it, why can't pool? Part of the mission of the UPA is to do just that, increase awareness of the game and the players, and thereby increase pool's popularity and potential earning value.

You said,

[ QUOTE ]
Apparenly you aren't familiar with CW's post here and on other forums. CW needs to address quesestions and issues more politically correct. Marketing and communication skills are lacking IMO
<hr /></blockquote>

I'm familiar with his posts. I don't think Charlie needs to attend any marketing classes since I doubt he's doing the marketing. He may have input, but I'd bet that the UPA has a team working on marketing. I know the WPBA does. The UPA, contrary to popular belief, is not a one-man show. As far as being PC and CW's communications skills, I've found Charlie to be quite intelligent and cogent in his postings.

I get the feeling that you personally don't care about the state of men's pool. That's fine, I can accept that. There are millions of people out there that don't. But there are plenty of us who do care, and want to see our sport grow and receive the attention and monetary awards it deserves. There are millions of people who don't play football seriously, yet they still manage to spend billions supporting the game. What's wrong with wanting the same for pool?

You asked, "Why is it so important to have POOL as big as GOLF? What can it possibly do for you or me?" It can do plenty for me, maybe not for you. I aspire to be a full-time professional player. I'm playing in the US Open, and I have sponsors. However, at this point in time, there isn't enough interest in the game by non-players to justify my quitting my day job, where I make more money than just about every pool player I can think of. Having pool in a bigger spotlight can make our game more popular, more rooms will open up, more tourneys will be put on, and larger purses will be available. The USTA just announced that the winners of the US Open (tennis) will receive a million dollars each. I feel that our sport can do the same thing, given time. Why can't there be financial reward like that in pool? Right now, it's because an organization like the UPA receives so much resistance, not only from non-players, but from mis-informed players and people who are satisfied with the status quo. I've always felt that excellence should be rewarded. Excellent golfers, tennis players, basketball players, baseball players, hockey players, NASCAR drivers, etc., are all rewarded. None of those sports started off with their players getting rich. Only time, and increased popularity of players, paved the way for the salaries those people make today. I think pool is at that beginning stage right now, and hopefully, if more people will open their minds and allow the UPA a shot, then pool can become a billion dollar industry like those other sports.

UWPoolGod
06-20-2003, 02:50 PM
Golf has done it, NASCAR has done it, why can't pool? &lt;---Doom

These along with all of the other major sports have to ability for large venues with a lot of talented people. They fill stadiums or let people wander around the course, which leads to huge revenue and the large payouts, . With Pool there is a small table where maybe the first 10 rows being able to see good around the table. After that people would have to look at monitors or through binoculars to get a good look. And so tops you would get maybe 500-1000 people set up around the room. Not vey much incoming revenue to take care of the overhead and leave enough for the players.

DoomCue
06-20-2003, 03:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UWPoolGod:</font><hr> Golf has done it, NASCAR has done it, why can't pool? &lt;---Doom

These along with all of the other major sports have to ability for large venues with a lot of talented people. They fill stadiums or let people wander around the course, which leads to huge revenue and the large payouts, . With Pool there is a small table where maybe the first 10 rows being able to see good around the table. After that people would have to look at monitors or through binoculars to get a good look. And so tops you would get maybe 500-1000 people set up around the room. Not vey much incoming revenue to take care of the overhead and leave enough for the players. <hr /></blockquote>

Snooker doesn't seem to have a problem with this in the UK. They still manage to have millions of dollars on the line, even with limited numbers of seated fans. The majority of viewers for any pro sport aren't seated fans. By far, the majority are television viewers. That's where the money is. Television contracts account for billions of dollars for the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, Olympics, etc.

There will always be those who would rather watch an event in person, even if they can't see jack. Hell, I've used binoculars to watch Andre Agassi at the US Open in NY, to see Neil Peart's drum solo at a Rush concert, and to see which player has the ball at a football game. Being there somehow makes us a part of the event, even if we can't see anything. Personally, I have no problem looking at monitors. I did it when I went to watch the 2000 US Open, where Earl beat Okumura. I've been to "major" sporting events where I had to do the same thing, that's why they have the monitors in the first place.

In the end, the biggest money maker for sports isn't bringing the fans into the venues (although yes, seated fans are important, they're just not the MOST important financially), it's getting the TV contracts, and the sponsors. The added bonus of TV coverage is obviously exposure; exposure for the game and exposure for the players. If the UPA can get extensive TV coverage, we can count on in influx of money into pool. This in turn will increase interest in leagues, pool halls, pool merchandise, and the players themselves. The entire industry could leap forward. I'd love to see a pro player do another commercial like the Miller Lite "Just Showin' Off" commercial with Steve Mizerak - not necessarily a beer commercial, but something non-pool related. That could generate interest in the sport, too. TV is very powerful, it can make or break our sport. Right now, we're broken without TV. That's one of the main reasons the Camel Pro Tour failed. Hopefully, the UPA can resolve that particular problem.

UWPoolGod
06-20-2003, 05:06 PM
Yeah. See some person should start a "Bar Sports Channel" or BSC. As much as I would not like to fully associate pool with bars...many viewers have more than likely never stepped into a pool hall, but have a bar with a pool table.

On this channel they could show a variety of different games that a diverse country could watch a part of. A larger group of people would start to subscribe to a channel like this since it offers a variety to the masses. Show Table Tennis, Foosball, Pool, Shuffleboard, Darts tourneys...throw in bowling even though it is on ESPN. Mix up the time slots and BAM...a larger audience than what pool alone could accomplish. My idea....I patented it LOL

Todd

DSAPOLIS
06-20-2003, 06:41 PM
DoomCue

First of all, I am a former pro that came on the crappy end of the stick from decisions made by a similar organization in 1993. As I have told you before, I proceed cautiously. I have every intention of playing in UPA Tour events, yet I am very cautious to "The Contract". I believe that you should be as well. Whenever somebody says I am waiving my right to this and that, I take that as them politely informing me of how they are going to screw me out of potential income. A lot of my income is generated by the use of my name, image and my association with the game of pool. I would be a fool to sign anything that says I waive rights to the marketing of my name and image.

Don't confuse my cautiousness with the mission statement of the UPA. I have absolutely no problem with the mission statement of the UPA. I have concerns as a player that I will address to the UPA board as well as my private attorney prior to signing any contract. As a player, I have a responsibility to myself, the tour, and my sponsors. Prior to making any decision or signing any contract, all three must be on the same sheet of music.

In a perfect world where pool players made an adequate income from playing in tournaments, this would not be much of an issue. I need to generate income from other areas within the billiard industry, and require the freedom to do so without interference from an entity (or player/tour president)that has not been around half as long as I have. I do not "hate" anyone, especially Charlie Williams. I have publicly stated that if the players were to place their support somewhere, it should be with the UPA. My only objection is that Charlie, and several of the UPA board (Jeremy,&amp; Max) were not MPBT professionals and should at least do some research as to why some of us are taken aback by their attitude and their posturing. Some of us have seen this crap before. We know it is not personal, its just business. That is why I "posture" myself accordingly.

I need to diversify my income within the industry. I'm not only a player, I am a representative, an instructor, and an author. I write books, give seminars, give classes, and promote billiard products. I rely on that income and I am not willing to sacrifice it for the good of the UPA tour.

Also, why the anonymity? I have posted my views on this subject and attached my name to it. You are obviously somebody in the loop, why not put your name to your comments? Your comments tilt to the fact that we just don't like Charlie. There is a difference between not liking somebody's business methods and not liking them personally. Don't confuse that. Charlie is being pushed out in front, but there are probably about 5-10 "suits" hiding behind the UPA banner that are making the decisions and Charlie is just their spokesman. Who knows? If the players are cautious, the UPA should take a step or two back and find out why they are losing their trust, and fix it quick. This was the major mistake that Don Mackey made. First he lost our trust, and instead of fixing the problem he made it worse by not placing the interest of the players on the forefront. The rest speaks for itself. If these are the changes you are speaking of, then the ball is the UPA's court, not the players'. If they say they are different, they should act differently. If they don't realize that it could spell their downfall. Let's hope they make the right choice.

DoomCue
06-22-2003, 07:54 AM
I have posted my name, I'm not hiding in anonymity. Just for the record once again, my name is David J. Baranski. I live in Raleigh, NC. I will be at the US Open this year. If you want, PM me and we'll exchange email addresses and meet at the Open to discuss things.

Qtec
06-22-2003, 10:23 PM
IMO , an outsiders view,
You must promote the pro game .Every kid who picks up tennis racket wants to be Agassi. Every kid that plays basketball , wants to be Jordan or Shaq. etc.They want to be as good and as RICH as their hero,s. To be the best takes a lot of practice , effort and sacrifice. Instead of hanging out with the gang , you are shooting baskets.You keep going because you can see light at the end of the tunnel. Motivation...If he is good enough he will get the financial rewards.and the fame .

When a kid picks up a pool cue [ if he is allowed to] what does he think ??????

Another thing. If I say "tennis , golf, soccer" ,you know exactly what I mean . If I say Pool ??????
Defining the game and the rules might be a good thing.


I agree that it is essential that Pro players , say top 128, should be guaranteed a minimum income .This can be done through prize money .I think that this is what the UPA is trying to do.

BTW,
When Tiger turned pro, before he had hit a ball he was $50 million richer. 80% of the money was non golf related. I would imagine that golf is mostly sponsored by non golf company,s. [ Rolex , American Express etc .]
Pool is not golf though , different customers and different incomes.


Q

DEADSTOKE32
06-23-2003, 07:32 AM
OK the upa I feel it "sucks " Because CW is trying to run the pool world .Telling players that thay need to join his UPA if thay want to play in the big tournament .What is this guy thinking about. He tells players, who do this for a liven, Were to play when to play and what not to play .So I guess the next thing he'll tell them is you can only play with a "predator Q". And "Now" I hear that he some how got his UPA in the Big Apple open .And the lady that is holding this tournament I know her. And she been trying to get this thing going for someting now. And shes got it up and running .And who? Come along and sanctioned the touranment ? WHY? And it was writen that he trying to the same thing to the WPA tour .Keep it up CW and all pro's have to go out and get 9 to 5 .And then what happens to pool ? Can somebody tell me why is it when something it goin good someone comes along and mess it ALL UP.This means you CW . /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
P.S when you go up to NY. how about trying to run for mayor. The clown thay have now you and him can take over the world. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

jjinfla
06-23-2003, 11:01 AM
Quote Doomcue:
I get the feeling that you personally don't care about the state of men's pool. That's fine, I can accept that. There are millions of people out there that don't. But there are plenty of us who do care, and want to see our sport grow and receive the attention and monetary awards it deserves. There are millions of people who don't play football seriously, yet they still manage to spend billions supporting the game. What's wrong with wanting the same for pool?

You asked, "Why is it so important to have POOL as big as GOLF? What can it possibly do for you or me?" It can do plenty for me, maybe not for you. I aspire to be a full-time professional player. I'm playing in the US Open, and I have sponsors
________________________________
Well Doomcue, Lately I have found myself caring less and less about the pros in pool.

Last year I had the feeling the UPA would have loved it if no one showed up at the US Open and it was a big flop. And I believe they will try the same thing again this year. Will you play in the US Open if the UPA boycotts it? Would that make any sense?

And now reading Panozzo's article in Billiard's Digest I see that the UPA actually tried to ban Earl Strickland from the Mosconi Cup. Why was this never reported by the industry? Luckily Luke Riches was able to name one player for USA's team. As far as I am concerned Earl should be the first choice and then have input as who the other members are. But the UPA did pull a fast one and made sure that Earl wasn't the captain. But maybe Earl did have the last laugh when he missed a pretty easy shot (for him) which stopped the UPA Team from winning.

But, there must be something drastically wrong with the UPA for Panozzo to dedicate his column to it. And it is apparent that Luke Riches is not enamored with them either.

The UPA can have lofty goals, ends, for professional pool, but if their means to achieve those ends are not just then they are nothing but a band of hoodlums.

Jake

DoomCue
06-24-2003, 10:45 AM
Actually, I would have loved it if the US Open had flopped last year, maybe that would have forced Barry to get his act together. He's a coke-head who doesn't understand the word guarantee, and he can't keep his ass out of jail. Unfortunately, pros are in a position where they feel they have to take what they can get, so they're forced to let his problems slide in order to make some money. If the UPA boycotts, and if I agree with them, I'll be sitting out the Open this year. If I don't agree with the UPA, then I'll be at the Open. I think for myself, I don't blindly follow anyone.

The shame of it is that it would probably be an empty boycott anyway. Too many pros don't hold on to their convictions, and that's part of the problem. All the men Stateside complain about the state of pool here, yet a lot are unwilling to do anything about it. The attitude "we must support the US Open, no matter what" is ludicrous, it shouldn't be an untouchable tournament just because of its perceived stature. If a true boycott would shape Barry up and turn the Open into an even better tournament next year, I'm all for it. Short-term harm leading to long-term stability is a sacrifice I'm willing to make (although once again, I'm in the minority on this).

The fundamental problem is that Barry can do whatever he wants thanks to the "let it slide" attitude. This tends to feed the "I don't care about the pros" attitude, and rightly so. If the pros don't care enough to fix their own situation, why should anyone else? That's where the UPA comes in. They're pros, representing pros, attempting to increase financial rewards for the pros. These pros have gotten together in an attempt to organize their unorganized sport, and they're still receiving flack for it. The resistance the UPA receives makes no sense to me. If people would come together and pool their resources instead of bitching about a perceived hijacking of men's pool by the UPA (which is hilarious, hijack what?), then maybe pool would stand a chance at increasing financial rewards.

Speaking of which, I've noticed that Mike Janis, of the Viking Tour, is looking for feedback on how to join the various small tours together, and I think that's a good thing. I don't know if he's doing this in conjunction with the UPA or in order to compete with the UPA, but either way, if it results in a unified tour with benefits to players, sponsors, promoters, and fans, then good luck to him. If this is meant to compete with the UPA, there's absolutely nothing wrong with competition in the market (in fact, it's quite healthy); the best product will come out on top. As long as the best product ultimately brings men's pool into the limelight, I'm all for it.

As far as Panozzo's article, he's fully entitled to his opinion. I believe he's the same guy who trashed the WPBA in much the same way he's trashing the UPA, so I don't put much stock in what he has to say. As Fran said, "Mike's job is to stir up controversy. That's what the media does."

It is shameful and childish to believe that Earl lost his match on purpose in order to spite the UPA. The Mosconi Cup is like the Davis Cup (tennis), the Ryder Cup (golf), and the Olympics - they're about national pride, not individual accomplishment. For Earl to dump the Mosconi Cup based on a squabble with the UPA is unthinkable, and I can't believe you even brought it up.

Finally, you enter into an "ends justifying the means" argument, and resort to calling the UPA "a band of hoodlums." There are plenty of people who will argue one way or the other concerning "ends justifying the means," so I won't choose to get into a semantic argument. However, click here (http://www.upatour.org/roster/touring_pros.htm) to find a list of "hoodlums." Be sure to send emails to Johnny Archer, Francisco Bustamante, Efren Reyes, et al, to let them know they're members of "a band of hoodlums." If you don't care about male pros, that's fine. As I've said before, there are plenty of people who don't. However, don't dismiss or belittle them by calling them "a band of hoodlums." They're simply doing what they feel they need to do in order to generate interest and income for pool.

eg8r
06-24-2003, 12:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It is shameful and childish to believe that Earl lost his match on purpose in order to spite the UPA. The Mosconi Cup is like the Davis Cup (tennis), the Ryder Cup (golf), and the Olympics - they're about national pride, not individual accomplishment. For Earl to dump the Mosconi Cup based on a squabble with the UPA is unthinkable, and I can't believe you even brought it up. <hr /></blockquote> I think the Mosconi cup should be about National pride, however that is not on CW's agenda. CW would rather the team fielded from ony his UPA members. Well, news to all of them, until they can match Earl, he deserves his spot. If CW was about national pride and winning the tournament for the US he would send the best from America, not the best from the UPA.

For the rest of what you said, whatever. You are stating everyone against the UPA is not doing anything, well what are you doing? You have trouble with criticism. I find it hard to get better without criticism.

eg8r

DoomCue
06-24-2003, 01:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It is shameful and childish to believe that Earl lost his match on purpose in order to spite the UPA. The Mosconi Cup is like the Davis Cup (tennis), the Ryder Cup (golf), and the Olympics - they're about national pride, not individual accomplishment. For Earl to dump the Mosconi Cup based on a squabble with the UPA is unthinkable, and I can't believe you even brought it up. <hr /></blockquote>
I think the Mosconi cup should be about National pride, however that is not on CW's agenda. CW would rather the team fielded from ony his UPA members. Well, news to all of them, until they can match Earl, he deserves his spot. If CW was about national pride and winning the tournament for the US he would send the best from America, not the best from the UPA.

For the rest of what you said, whatever. You are stating everyone against the UPA is not doing anything, well what are you doing? You have trouble with criticism. I find it hard to get better without criticism.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>


I agree with you, Earl deserves his spot, he is the reigning World Champion. The problem is how to determine who gets those Mosconi Cup spots. The ranking system accepted and recognized by Matchroom is the UPA system, of which Earl is not a part. Perhaps Matchroom should come up with their own ranking system for American players to make up for the fact that not all players are members of the UPA.

As far as the rest of your post is concerned, congratulations, you have excellent debating skills, especially your dismissal of my posts with a mighty, "whatever." Another display of skill is the ability to put words in my mouth, like, "You are stating everyone against the UPA is not doing anything." Finally, there is the tried-and-true method of personal attack, exhibited by, "You have trouble with criticism." I thank you for your input and insights.

eg8r
06-24-2003, 01:34 PM
You are welcome.

eg8r