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Fran Crimi
06-21-2003, 09:15 PM
OK, help me out here.

Say this word out loud two times:

TOUR

Now say this word out loud two times:

TOURNAMENT

Now here's my problem: If you're not from NY or NJ, you probably said [toor] for the first word and [ternament] for the second word. Why did you change the sound of 'TOUR' from the first word to the second?

We say [toor] and [toornament].

BTW, Webster's allows for both pronunciations, but I can't figure out for the life of me why. Is it because everybody says [ternament] and Webster's says, "Well, OK then. If that's what you guys want."

I'm stumped. Which one do you think is right (forgetting Webster's for a minute)?

Fran

SPetty
06-21-2003, 09:24 PM
Hi Fran,

Check out www.m-w.com (http://www.m-w.com) - they show ternament as the first pronunciation, and tornament as the second, but when you go to their "let me hear it" section, it sounds to me like the guy is from New York!

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?tourna01.wav=tournament

Being born and raised in Texas, I've always heard, said, and learned ternament as the right way. It sounds just like yankee-speak when you guys (hahaha y'all!) say it tornament.

Why the interest? Y'all pronounce a lot of stuff wrong! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif just kidding...

Mr Ingrate
06-21-2003, 09:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> OK, help me out here.

Say this word out loud two times:

TOUR

Now say this word out loud two times:

TOURNAMENT

Now here's my problem: If you're not from NY or NJ, you probably said [toor] for the first word and [ternament] for the second word. Why did you change the sound of 'TOUR' from the first word to the second?

We say [toor] and [toornament].

BTW, Webster's allows for both pronunciations, but I can't figure out for the life of me why. Is it because everybody says [ternament] and Webster's says, "Well, OK then. If that's what you guys want."

I'm stumped. Which one do you think is right (forgetting Webster's for a minute)?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Is that "toor" as in "door", Fran? Just pronounce it as "tore" and "tornament" and everyone will hear it the way they want to. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Candyman
06-21-2003, 09:32 PM
Fran, if you ask a Southerner, you may find a third pronunciation. Try [tuneament]Lol. It's true. Wouldn't Webster be so proud? Lock

Fran Crimi
06-21-2003, 09:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr Ingrate:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> OK, help me out here.

Say this word out loud two times:

TOUR

Now say this word out loud two times:

TOURNAMENT

Now here's my problem: If you're not from NY or NJ, you probably said [toor] for the first word and [ternament] for the second word. Why did you change the sound of 'TOUR' from the first word to the second?

We say [toor] and [toornament].

BTW, Webster's allows for both pronunciations, but I can't figure out for the life of me why. Is it because everybody says [ternament] and Webster's says, "Well, OK then. If that's what you guys want."

I'm stumped. Which one do you think is right (forgetting Webster's for a minute)?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Is that "toor" as in "door", Fran? Just pronounce it as "tore" and "tornament" and everyone will hear it the way they want to. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <hr /></blockquote>


No, it's 'toor' as in toor-a-loor-a-loor-a (You know that Irish lullaby song?) Not 'tore' as in 'I tore my dress'.

Fran /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran Crimi
06-21-2003, 09:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> Hi Fran,


Why the interest? Y'all pronounce a lot of stuff wrong! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif just kidding...
<hr /></blockquote>

LOL! I don't know...I guess it's been bugging me for awhile. (Like, years.) I still always get a "HUH???" when I ask for KAWFEE when I travel. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Fran

Fran Crimi
06-21-2003, 09:45 PM
Don't hit me SPetty /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif but actually, this time I think we're right and youz guys are wrong. That's why I'm asking.

Fran

Rod
06-21-2003, 10:02 PM
I've always felt those two states were just a little off key. LOL Why would two states be different than the rest?
Now be honest Fran, you may not but I hear it more like Toiniment. ha ha ha ha JK with ya. Now does turnament sound so bad. LOL A turnament is people taking turns playing each other. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif A toinament sounds like people making toins playing each other. I don't know why, I'm more from mid west to west, were just different than those two eastern states. LOL How do you pronounce doy-lees ? ha ha ha

Rod

Vapros
06-21-2003, 11:16 PM
My Random House Dictionary of the English Language lists "toornament" first and "turnament" as a second pronunciation. That means take your choice. There are many instances where second or third options come to be acceptable through extensive and repeated usage, and are then listed in dictionaries. In my area we really do hear "toonament", and even "toinament".

Don't worry about it. If it feels good, do it.

My own pet peeve is "forte". So many people have pronounced it "fortay" for so long that it now appears in some dictionaries as an acceptable alternative. Not good.

mickey2
06-22-2003, 01:11 AM
Maybe the word tour was originally French, just think of the famous Tour de France.

Qtec
06-22-2003, 04:10 AM
[toornament].

This is correct if we are talking English , French or Dutch.

In the south they might say ," plaid a purdy gid tyrenamnt." /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
What do you think of my American . Not a bad effort considering ... Eh!

Q

Sid_Vicious
06-22-2003, 11:19 AM
I'll smack her for us SPetty! Everyone knows it took the southerners to perfect the yankees speech...they somehow think it sounds more "proppa" to emulate the Brits, but hey, we tossed tea in the harbor to speak any way we see fit, and ternament is what we call in in the glory land of the south, the proper way ;-) sid

Hopster
06-22-2003, 12:18 PM
LOL! I don't know...I guess it's been bugging me for awhile. (Like, years.) I still always get a "HUH???" when I ask for KAWFEE when I travel. &lt;--Fran

I get it all the time from people. The only thing that bugs me is when they start in with the "Fuuhhhgggetttabbouuuuuitttt "
Now thats something i been saying since im a kid, so i usually reply : Thats real funny, CITRULL !!
That usually gets me a HUH ?? lol

Fred Agnir
06-23-2003, 07:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr Ingrate:</font><hr>
Is that "toor" as in "door", Fran? Just pronounce it as "tore" and "tornament" and everyone will hear it the way they want to. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <hr /></blockquote>I like this answer. It's just like New Orleans and Carribean. The way the "natives" say their home isn't what everyone else thinks they say. It's the pronunciation in between the two common fumblings. People hear, and repeat what they want.

BTW, in Boston, it's ter nmnt, with no "r."

Fred

Fred Agnir
06-23-2003, 07:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> OK, help me out here.

Say this word out loud two times:

TOUR

Now say this word out loud two times:

TOURNAMENT

Now here's my problem: If you're not from NY or NJ, you probably said [toor] for the first word and [ternament] for the second word. Why did you change the sound of 'TOUR' from the first word to the second?

We say [toor] and [toornament].

BTW, Webster's allows for both pronunciations, but I can't figure out for the life of me why. Is it because everybody says [ternament] and Webster's says, "Well, OK then. If that's what you guys want."

I'm stumped. Which one do you think is right (forgetting Webster's for a minute)?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>I'm putting on my Holiday Inn Express hat, so bear with me. What I've learned from Linguistics 101 is that words that may look like they are related, may not be when you trace it's origins. And, therefore, pronunciation may end up being different.

Take common homographs like lead and lead. Both spelled exactly the same, yet are pronounced differently. Why? Because they're linguistic origins are different.

I'm guessing that "Tour" originates from something different than "Tournament." I'd say French for "Tournament" with something like [tourner: to turn]

I'm thinking "tour" resembles the word [tur: a door or passage-way]. "Tur" (with a carat on the u) might me Arian, I can't remember.

All a big guess.

Fred &lt;~~~ taking the Holiday Inn Express hat off.

bluewolf
06-23-2003, 08:00 AM
Ou is a dipthong normally pronounced oo when standing alone. When it is preceded and followed by a consanent, the sound of the dipthong changes, resulting in the sound changing to a clipping of the dipthong . So tour sounds like tor or torr.

In multisyllabic words, this is further complicated in this case by the fact that the accent is on the third syllable causing the sound of the dipthong to be changed, ie pronounced like er by many people.In this case, it appears that because the northerner changes the accent to the second syllable, the dipthong remains more true.

In general, most northerners clip vowels more so than southerners. Of course, the are variations based on area.

I have been told by speech pathologists that the clipping of vowels by northerners is incorrect,not sure I totally agree here because I would rather listen to a northerner anyday as they are easier for me to understand because they are more likely to pronouce ending sounds and not slur words.JMHO

Laura

Fran Crimi
06-23-2003, 08:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I'm putting on my Holiday Inn Express hat, so bear with me. What I've learned from Linguistics 101 is that words that may look like they are related, may not be when you trace it's origins. And, therefore, pronunciation may end up being different.

Take common homographs like lead and lead. Both spelled exactly the same, yet are pronounced differently. Why? Because they're linguistic origins are different.

I'm guessing that "Tour" originates from something different than "Tournament." I'd say French for "Tournament" with something like [tourner: to turn]

I'm thinking "tour" resembles the word [tur: a door or passage-way]. "Tur" (with a carat on the u) might me Arian, I can't remember.

All a big guess.

Fred &lt;~~~ taking the Holiday Inn Express hat off. <hr /></blockquote>

I just looked up the word origins and you're right, they're different.

You're right about the word 'tour' with it's origin as French 'tourner'. <font color="blue"> Oops. I need to correct that, Fred. You're right about tourner, but not for the word 'tournament.' </font color>

The origin of 'tournament' is very interesting:

From Websters: "Middle English tornement, from Old French torneiement, from torneier"

It looks like the NY, NJ pronunciation of 'tournament' is closer to the origin of the word.

Works for me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

Qtec
06-23-2003, 08:40 AM
I'm guessing that "Tour" originates from something different than "Tournament." I'd say French for "Tournament" with something like [tourner: to turn]

La Tour- a trick , can also mean, a performance or achievment.
La Tour de Eifel- the tower
Tour de France - travel through France / route through F.
Tournament - competition , [ Jousting - Knights and all that ]

Dutch - Tournooi - competition

TOORNAMENT

Q

Eric.
06-23-2003, 09:22 AM
Hey Fran,

Dey gots it all wrong. Youse all know how it's suppoze ta sound like. As a matta a fact it's TOOR-NA-MENT. All youse country guys are way off. Fugetaboutit.


Eric &gt;from Joysee

Fran Crimi
06-23-2003, 09:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> Hey Fran,

Dey gots it all wrong. Youse all know how it's suppoze ta sound like. As a matta a fact it's TOOR-NA-MENT. All youse country guys are way off. Fugetaboutit.


Eric &gt;from Joysee <hr /></blockquote>

Ha! You got that right, Eric! I'm sicka dem bums tellin' us we're no good. I'm tellin' ya, they got a lotta noive makin fun of us when they got stores in Texas called Dirt Supermarkets. I swear. Supermarkets that sell dirt. Piles and piles of dirt. Imagine: "See you later dear, I'm off to the dirt supermarket to buy some dirt." Hey guys, we got a nice bridge in Brooklyn for sale. Youz interested??

Oh, and if you wanna kill something and get it stuffed, no problemo. There's a taxidermist on every other corner.

And they say WE'RE uncivilized???

Fran

Mr Ingrate
06-23-2003, 10:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Ou is a dipthong normally pronounced oo when standing alone.
Laura <hr /></blockquote>

I would say Ou and Oo a lot wearing any kind of a thong whether standing alone or in a crowd. Is a dipthong visible with low rise jeans?

~~~ now tournament, toinament, ternament, and tornament legal ~~~

Vapros
06-23-2003, 11:49 AM
I believe we have decided that you can say the word any way you like. Now we are into grammar and using words we can't spell. Sure sign that it's time to move along. It's been a good discussion, though, hasn't it?

SpiderMan
06-23-2003, 01:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> We say [toor] and [toornament].
Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I'm with Rod on this one ... youse say "toinament", we-all say "ternament", and we're similar on "toor".

SpiderMan

Fran Crimi
06-23-2003, 01:15 PM
Haha! Nobody says toinament around here. You been watching too many Dead-End Kids movies, perchance?

Fran

Eric.
06-23-2003, 02:06 PM
Another pronunciation around here is "tawn a ment", although that is not the majority. Hey, we're bound to have some diversity- we only have about 19 million people, from a gadzillion different backrounds, living in a 50-60 mile radius (that's all!)

Eric

Fran Crimi
06-23-2003, 03:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Candyman:</font><hr> Fran, if you ask a Southerner, you may find a third pronunciation. Try [tuneament]Lol. It's true. Wouldn't Webster be so proud? Lock <hr /></blockquote>

That's it! I've made my decision. I'm going with tuneament. It has a nice ring to it. To Hell with Websters.

Fran ~~~~ Name That Tuneament

Candyman
06-23-2003, 04:58 PM
You go girl!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

bluewolf
06-24-2003, 09:13 AM
WW and I have a disagreement on how to pronounce this even if I did not spell it right, lots will know what I mean. Heck, even the characters on the program do not pronounce it the same.

I clip the first vowels like go old or gua old, where others try to pronounce each individual vowel sound.

My contention is that ua or ao are dipthongs alien to out language so it is more appropriape to try to make a new dipthong and leave out a letter. The letters do not stand alone, the vowels so why say each one.

What do you guys think??

Hint hint. Ray has been in dc for 20 years and thinks he has lost his southern accent. I recently came from roanoke, va and still have mine, but at least I know it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

Vapros
06-24-2003, 11:13 AM
C'mon, BW. I know you can do better than that. If you're gonna keep using that word, you have to learn to spell it. And I can see why these posts are called 'non-pool related'.