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Nick B
06-24-2003, 11:28 PM
OK there is a trend I find disturbing. Pro's who play with junk and then pass them off as great cues to Joe Average.

Now let me state I'm a capitalist at heart. If someone paid me say $20,000.00 a year to play with some off-shore junk (which would probably would mean 40% plus of my yearly take) and I could get almost anybody to discreetly apply a shaft (Preditor, custom...etc) I would too.

But were is it going to stop. At least Segal makes his own. I got a chance to inspect Allison F's playing cue once. In a word...of the rack...no way. I suspect JA, ES and others do the same.

Well it is true you can get used to anything...I just can't see JA playing with a stiff Schon all his life and going to a wimpy piece of _hit.

I don't know any pro playing with Qtech that wasn't paid...period.

Ok I now have vented and feel better.

Nick /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Deniel
06-25-2003, 12:10 AM
So, how is Allison's playing cue? Cuetech typical?
Btw.. who is JA?

Deniel?

bolo
06-25-2003, 12:32 AM
You are just stating the obvious. I doubt even Joe average thinks they play with those cues by choice. The fact is, for the money they are not bad cues and the pros may not really play with one themselves if they were not paid, they are not bad for the average player. I don't think the pros are doing anything unethical. I have never heard one say they thought these were great cues, just not bad for the money. I have never heard one lie about that. Of your examples, Segal may be the most unethical, for the money he wants his cues, they really are junk. I might rather have a cuetec.

Singlemalt
06-25-2003, 04:46 AM
A friend of mine down in Charlotte knows AF and basically tells me that the only thing about her cue that shows it as a QT is barely more than the label. I know for sure she uses shafts made from a different cue maker.

Singlemalt
06-25-2003, 04:47 AM
JA - Johnny Archer

Predator314
06-25-2003, 06:16 AM
I was reading in a magazine or catalog or something that Archer uses a Scorpion cue straight off the shelf with no modifications. I've used one of these cues before. They suck. It's no wonder the shaft broke on him so easily /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Singlemalt
06-25-2003, 06:37 AM
Yea, Johnny comes around here a couple times a year and I have watched him playing with those cues. I have noticed a drop off in how powerful his break is since switching cues.

Fred Agnir
06-25-2003, 07:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deniel:</font><hr> So, how is Allison's playing cue? Cuetech typical?
Btw.. who is JA?

Deniel? <hr /></blockquote> JA is Johnny Archer.

Allison's cue is shorter than stock Cuetecs. Earl sands the fiberglass cladding off of his.

Fred

Fred Agnir
06-25-2003, 07:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Singlemalt:</font><hr> Yea, Johnny comes around here a couple times a year and I have watched him playing with those cues. I have noticed a drop off in how powerful his break is since switching cues. <hr /></blockquote>I don't think this is the stick. I've watched him a few times the last year, and he is breaking at different speeds depending on the balls going in.

Fred

eg8r
06-25-2003, 10:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
In a word...of the rack...no way. <hr /></blockquote> That was more than one word. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

This is no different than any other advertising. Do you think all those supermodels would be wearing grocery store make-up if they were not getting paid? I do not see anything wrong with what they are doing. Instead, what a great idea, you have pros playing with what you feel is a lower quality cue and still winning. This proves it is not the cue winning the tourneys, it is the player.

eg8r

eg8r
06-25-2003, 10:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Of your examples, Segal may be the most unethical, for the money he wants his cues, they really are junk. <hr /></blockquote> Which Sigel cues are you referring to?

eg8r

Michelle
06-25-2003, 10:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Allison's cue is shorter than stock Cuetecs. <hr /></blockquote>

Cuetec makes a few cues in their line that are "Alison Fisher" cues, a ladies line, that are 57".

Fred Agnir
06-25-2003, 11:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Michelle:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Allison's cue is shorter than stock Cuetecs. <hr /></blockquote>

Cuetec makes a few cues in their line that are "Alison Fisher" cues, a ladies line, that are 57". <hr /></blockquote> IIRC, her shooting cue is less than 57". 56" rings a bell.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? ChrisNC?

Fred

Rich R.
06-25-2003, 11:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> IIRC, her shooting cue is less than 57". 56" rings a bell. <hr /></blockquote>
Per the December 2002 issue of InsidePool magazine, "What's in the Case?", Allison's playing cue is a "Cuetec, 56 inches, 18 oz."

FYI, her snooker cue is only 54 inches.

kurtfields
06-25-2003, 02:12 PM
Sorry to deliver the bad news...but MS does not make is own cues.

kurtfields
06-25-2003, 02:16 PM
In fact the difference is that Segal tells people that he makes his cues when in fact they are made right next door to the same companies in China that make Allison and Johnny's cues.

highsea
06-25-2003, 02:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote kurtfields:</font><hr> In fact the difference is that Segal tells people that he makes his cues when in fact they are made right next door to the same companies in China that make Allison and Johnny's cues. <hr /></blockquote>

Mike Sigel does indeed make his custom cues in his shop in Florida.

These are not the same as the production "signature" cues that are made overseas.

http://sigelscues.com/customcues.html

-CM

kurtfields
06-25-2003, 02:29 PM
You are correct, I thought you were referring to the cues he has had made overseas. I can't blame players for getting paid...take what you can while you can. Especially because there is not that big of difference between the cues with the evolution of CNC technology. I mean not $500 dollars difference.

Fred Agnir
06-25-2003, 02:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote kurtfields:</font><hr> In fact the difference is that Segal tells people that he makes his cues when in fact they are made right next door to the same companies in China that make Allison and Johnny's cues. <hr /></blockquote>

People on this board have witnessed Mike doing the work, so I'd say you're misinformed.

I think you're confusing which of Mike Sigel's cues are the overseas ones and which ones are made by him in his shop

Check out what Bludworth had to say:

http://www.azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=561

Fred &lt;~~~ has no doubt

kurtfields
06-25-2003, 02:36 PM
As I said, it is true that Mike makes some of the cues...however, he still uses his name to pull sales through his import channel. I'm saying that there is nothing wrong with it as long as he is honest about exactly where each cue is made.

GreenLion
06-25-2003, 02:46 PM
This may be a hair off subject but i was told that any cue thats above $100 your BASICLY paying for the decoration,brandname stuff like that.I have a Qstick that my parents got me when i was 9 yrs old and ive been playing with it for 17yrs and it is not warped at all.It was only alittle over $100.Its been a great stick for me.So was that person right about any Qstick above $100 your basicly paying for brandname and decor?

tateuts
06-25-2003, 03:00 PM
The ads that Jim Rempe did for Meucci in the mid 1990's forever turned me off to celebrity pro pool player endorsements.

They we presented as a message from Rempe with his photo and signature. The language, however, was a typical Bob Meucci diatribe. The message indicated that other pro's secretly admitted to Rempe in private that Meucci's were the best cue, but they couldn't say so in public because of sponsorship arrangements.

Chris

eg8r
06-25-2003, 03:33 PM
I believe he is quite honest about which cue he made. It is quite evident in the price alone. What is your reasoning for believing anything different.

I have been to his shop a number of times and have sat in his shop watching him work on his own cues. He has never lied at all about which ones he made. As far as his production line, yes they are manufactured overseas. Mike speaks highly of their quality but he will never tell you he built them.

I have not seen him mislead any customers that came into his shop to buy a cue. He will show you his prod line cues, and his custom cues. He also will go into painstaking detail about the differences if you ask. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
06-25-2003, 03:36 PM
I know you backpedalled in your other posts, I just thought you might want to delete this one or make an edit. It is blatantly wrong and needs some adjustment.

Instead of misleading everyone on the board who are not as familiar with Sigel's lines of cues you should do a better job of differentiating which ones you are referring to.

eg8r

eg8r
06-25-2003, 03:39 PM
There is more to it. Sure you will pay for the name of the maker, but you will also pay for the inlays material, and the quality of work. Not to mention the difference in costs for the different wood (not sure how much, but guessing not all wood costs the same). Also, you are paying for the expertise that comes with a custom built cue.

eg8r &lt;~~~Only knows some of the differences

bolo
06-25-2003, 03:42 PM
Everything I have seen high end at the trade shows. They are in my opinion some of the ugliest designs and so over priced you can get nicer looking cue from almost any of the top cuemakers for like half the price. I have hit balls with some of his cues and they did not jump out at me, nothing special. I don't think their resale value is nearly as good as the other cuemakers. My main beef is with the price.

bolo
06-25-2003, 03:56 PM
way, way, way, off. At $100. per cue, after materials, overhead for the shop, labor to build and finish a cue, the cuemaker would not make anything, he would take it in with one hand and pay it out with the other. I would put the number at more like $300 to $400 for a plain cue for the cuemaker to take the time to build a nice cue and make a decent living doing so. And even then he would have to sell quite a few cues per year at least 150 to 200 to feel like he is doing well.

highsea
06-25-2003, 05:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote kurtfields:</font><hr> ....Especially because there is not that big of difference between the cues with the evolution of CNC technology. I mean not $500 dollars difference. <hr /></blockquote>

CNC machinery is just machinery. There may not be a huge difference in cues from a single maker, all production Joss cues may be fairly close to each other, but there is a big difference from one manufacturer to another. A Joss will play different than a Meucci, even though both companies employ CNC machines.

Not all cues are built the same way, and different materials will affect the way a cue plays. Some cues are balanced differently than others, the way the forearm is joined to the handle, cored vs. solid, sleeved butts vs. solid, short-splice vs. full splice vs. inlays, the type of joint used, tips and ferrules, the variations are endless.

The point is that it is the cue maker that builds the cue, not the machine. CNC machines are just a way to work faster and more accurately.

In the case of production cues, CNC machines help to maintain consistency in the product line from one cue to the next. For the custom cue maker, a CNC machine will save a lot of time on repetitive processes, like turning tapers and making shafts.

-CM

eg8r
06-25-2003, 07:18 PM
I do not like the price either. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

AndyG
06-26-2003, 09:23 AM
Greenlion, That was probably true several years ago, but the costs have risen. I'd say that line of demarcation would be closer to $300 now.
AndyG