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Bassn7
06-25-2003, 11:53 AM
Just an observation that is now very clear to me. "Practice" matches with another individual rarely teach you new skills. You are using skills that you ALREADY HAVE. On the other hand: Learning to be a better pool player requires that you 'practice' with repetition using new shots, repeatable shots and/or new methods of bridge, stance or stroke. The learning curve playing with another individual is about "flat". Bottom line: you need NEW information in order to get better. Using existing skills only helps you to stay the same. Myself: I try to learn two new skills a week . . . look out.

Note: Beware of trying to learn "bad" new information. There are are tons of "hacks" out there that think they know what you need to learn next. As for books, stick to Henning, Byrne, Fels, Capelle, Martin . . . and the Monk.

Bassn7
APA 7, 20 year veteran of the APA

Tom_In_Cincy
06-25-2003, 01:23 PM
Bassn7,
I agree with your observation, but I need to point out one aspect that you didn't cover.

Once you have learned a 'new' skill, you need to be able to test your 'new' skill. To do this properly (IMO) you need to match up with a similar or better player. This is a learning experience (I know, you said 'almost a flat line') but I think this process needs a test to see how well you learned from practice.

Other than this addition, all that you posted is very true.

To get to an APA SL7 is a small leap for some players, but a huge and almost impossible leap for a lot of others.

"Practice, use a pre-shot routine, trust what you know, and accept the results immediately and go to the next shot."

UTAddb
06-25-2003, 01:51 PM
I disagree. You can learn new skills (ex. proper technique or safety play) from playing with and observing better players. You then incorporate these new skills into your practice sessions and eventually your matches.

DSAPOLIS
06-25-2003, 03:16 PM
Bassn7 Wrote: Bottom line: you need NEW information in order to get better. Using existing skills only helps you to stay the same. Myself: I try to learn two new skills a week . . . look out.

This is not true. Matter of fact, it is completely false.

It is not what you practice, it is HOW you practice. Perfect practice makes perfect. Wrong practice leads to wrong habits. Practice is an activity, not an accomplishment. Practice sessions are daily maintenence for our game. Skills should be developed in the same way that a bodybuilder would build a muscle group. You SHOULD learn new skills, but ignoring existing skills helps them to gether dust and rust.


Note: Beware of trying to learn "bad" new information. There are are tons of "hacks" out there that think they know what you need to learn next. As for books, stick to Henning, Byrne, Fels, Capelle, Martin . . . and the Monk.

I can add at least 20 more names to that list, most of them you probably have never heard of, a fact that is evident by that statement. If you want, I can send you a list with web addresses so that you can reference the material of some of the lesser known instructors that are absent from your list. If we, as players, adopt your views, we will all end up like cement: all mixed together and permanently set. It would be hard to move in any direction from there.
IMO, your advice is not only inaccurate, it is closed minded.

Many people spend a lifetime trying to change how God made them. They ignore their God-given abilities while constantly seeking to change their natural make-up. The first step to improving is recognizing our inner strengths and doing everything in our power to to build on them.

Never underestimate the power of the gifts that are within you.

Billy
06-25-2003, 04:07 PM
practicing can be good or harmful

think it would be a matter of your perception of the practice match that would dictate how beneficial this session may be to you

don't immediately downplay a practice session with another as 'not doing anything for me'.it will be up to you to make this particular session important or not.winning should be an important skill to learn,not letting your opponent back to the table should be an important skill to learn to name just a few

don't fool yourself,it's how serious you take these practice sessions that will make ya or break ya ...

not an APA 7 but have many matches and practice sessions under my belt

jmo,good luck

Tom_In_Cincy
06-25-2003, 04:32 PM
WOW David, is this a touchy subject for you? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif


I haven't seen you use such strong language before. [ QUOTE ]
closed minded. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree with both viewpoints if that's possible, but I have never considered myself 'closed minded' nor do I consider Bassn7's comments 'closed minded'. His comments were focused, IMO, on playing others for 'practice' and I agree it isn't the best way to learn NEW ways to improve your game. But it is a good way to 'Test' what you've practiced and learned by applying the new skills to a match. This is IMO good feedback for your practice sessions.

Qtec
06-25-2003, 11:08 PM
Blackjack, I totally agree with you on this one .

It amazes me how many people think that to play better they need 'new' information. That there is some secret they dont know .The fact is that the best pool players are the one,s that do the simple things well.
I also agree it is essential that practice be done in the right way .
eg,START(
%HH8N5%IJ7L9%PN4T1%QR0T5%RR4Z0%TB1B2%WE0P1%XH7O6%Y Q0T5%ZE2P3
%[J1P3%\M6S3%]R1Z6%^C7P4
)END
The object is to pot the 8 in pocket D and bring the white to A for a straight 9. Instead of reaching A the Qb finishes up at B , tight on the rail.
Often you will see the player spending 15 min trying to pot the 9 from this position ,when he should be playing the original shot over and over so that he gets the Qb to A and not B.
Sure you do need to practise shot B , but that was not the point of this drill.

Qtec

Chris Cass
06-25-2003, 11:37 PM
Tap, Tap, Tap.

C.C.~~well put..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bigbro6060
06-26-2003, 12:17 AM
I think there's a danger of trying to 'learn' a new skill then trying to 'practice' it in a practice match too early

There is a muscle memory time lapse. For me because i practice everyday at home, it's only about 2 weeks. So if i make a change i won't use it in any type of match until i really can do it subconsciously

I recently changed my bridge and was amazed at how quickly it became second nature

Ralph S.
06-26-2003, 06:14 AM
I agree with you David. A friend of mine that I play against on a weekly basis, is slightly ahead of my skill level, yet I tend to pick up on something he does almost every time we play and I incorporate that in my game.

Learning is a constant. One never stops learning no matter how good they become. Speaking of learning......I am awaiting your arrival Scott. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

pooltchr
06-26-2003, 06:22 AM
David, I agree that his list of good sources of information is extremely limited. At the same time, there are some people out there teaching things that may not be, shall we say, accurate. It's important to filter through the information that is out there, and make sure it is factual. I have heard a lot of sl7's tell players things that they think are true, but can't demonstrate the how's or why's. One of the most interesting books I have read on the subject is The Science of Pocket Billiards by Jack Koehler. You won't find it in many bookstores, and won't see any adds in the pool magazines for it, but the book is full of very detailed information particularly related to the physics and geometry of the game. Just one example. You are correct in that if we limit our education to a few best selling authors, we miss out on a lot of opportunities to learn. My advise would be to consider any source of information, but question it all as well.

Fran Crimi
06-26-2003, 09:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DSAPOLIS:</font><hr> Bassn7 Wrote: Bottom line: you need NEW information in order to get better. Using existing skills only helps you to stay the same. Myself: I try to learn two new skills a week . . . look out.

This is not true. Matter of fact, it is completely false.


It is not what you practice, it is HOW you practice. Perfect practice makes perfect. Wrong practice leads to wrong habits. Practice is an activity, not an accomplishment. Practice sessions are daily maintenence for our game. Skills should be developed in the same way that a bodybuilder would build a muscle group. You SHOULD learn new skills, but ignoring existing skills helps them to gether dust and rust.

<font color="blue">I don't get it, Blackjack. I don't see where your response is related to his comment. Are you saying that you can get better by "maintaining" your skills and not allowing them to get rusty? You know that you won't get better. You'll just keep your game in shape and you'll play to the ability that you have. But maintaining doesn't make you better. New information is what makes you better. Most people can draw a ball, but the average player can't draw with a high level of control. So working on your draw to get better control is not maintaining. That's learning new information. </font color>


Note: Beware of trying to learn "bad" new information. There are are tons of "hacks" out there that think they know what you need to learn next. As for books, stick to Henning, Byrne, Fels, Capelle, Martin . . . and the Monk.

I can add at least 20 more names to that list, most of them you probably have never heard of, a fact that is evident by that statement. If you want, I can send you a list with web addresses so that you can reference the material of some of the lesser known instructors that are absent from your list. If we, as players, adopt your views, we will all end up like cement: all mixed together and permanently set. It would be hard to move in any direction from there.
IMO, your advice is not only inaccurate, it is closed minded.

<font color="blue">I basically agree with you here but you are being a little harsh about it. After all, you can't expect a player with very little knowledge to be able to tell who is giving out good information and who isn't. For that type of player who's completely on their own and doesn't have anyone to guide them, yes, why not stick with the well-known names? It sure beats the risk of getting bad information. Do you think everyone has the resources to who's who as you do? </font color>

Many people spend a lifetime trying to change how God made them. They ignore their God-given abilities while constantly seeking to change their natural make-up. The first step to improving is recognizing our inner strengths and doing everything in our power to to build on them.

Never underestimate the power of the gifts that are within you. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Well, yeah...but c'mon, Blackjack. We all know we should build our strengths, but if we really want to get good, we're going to have to put in a little work and create some things that aren't always there within us. Jack Nicklaus is the perfect example. He claims he had very little natural ability. He stands firmly behind the statement the he created the golfer he became.

Fran</font color>

Bassn7
06-26-2003, 09:19 AM
Just some side notes: The author list was not all inclusive, just a few to use and look for if not familiar with the tons that are out there.
Also . . . Fran, thanks for your support in understanding the true intent of my "post". I owe you a hug.

Qtec
06-26-2003, 09:52 AM
[ QUOTE ]
New information is what makes you better. Most people can draw a ball, but the average player can't draw with a high level of control. So working on your draw to get better control is not maintaining. That's learning new information.
<hr /></blockquote>

No Fran , this is practicing. You might already know where to hit and how to hit so you dont need any new info to make the shot . Feedback is what you are talking about.
Also , if you cant put the ball back and play the shot over and over till you get it right you are not practicing .
When you play better players you can learn from them , the shot selection , why they take that ball, how they play it ,tactics etc.
When you play ,you should play .Learn from it and then practice it .

IMO , Blackjack is saying that to reach your full potential you have to play in a manner that suits you . If you try to play like somebody else you will always break down because you are not playing naturally. You can only be as good as you are but at least YOU will play.




Qtec

Fran Crimi
06-26-2003, 09:57 AM
Nope. I disagree. If you're getting better by practicing your draw stroke, then you're doing something you didn't do before, maybe following through better, or controlling the speed of your armswing better. If you're doing something you didn't do before, you're doing something new. That's new information, because you're applying it to yourself in a way you hadn't done before.

It's impossible to get better by doing the same thing. Haven't you ever heard the definition of insanity? Thinking you can change something by doing the same thing. Repetition of the same thing isn't going to make you better. Repetition gives you insight as to what you need to change to get better. That's new information.

Fran

DebraLiStarr
06-26-2003, 03:50 PM
Quote Fran: It's impossible to get better by doing the same thing.

I don't see where David said that you should do the same thing over and over. I went back and read his post again, and that's not in there. What I read is that we should look within to develop our own strengths prior to looking for something on the outside. He talks about developing skills, not maintaining them. There is a difference in what he wrote and what you are talking about. You either misread his post, or you are purposely misquoting him. I'll flip a coin for you.


Quote Fran: Well, yeah...but c'mon, Blackjack. We all know we should build our strengths, but if we really want to get good, we're going to have to put in a little work and create some things that aren't always there within us. Jack Nicklaus is the perfect example. He claims he had very little natural ability. He stands firmly behind the statement the he created the golfer he became

Jack Nicklaus didn't create anything. His skills were blessed upon him by God. Jack did the footwork but God provided the means, regardless of "natural" ability. Nobody said work was not involved, but you insinuate that somebody did. LAME.


I disagree with David, however. There was nothing "closed minded" in the original poster's comments. Bassn7's comments reflect his opinions. He obviously has limited exposure to great instruction. It's probably not his fault. There is some awesome stuff posted on the internet that is free for the taking.

Scott Lee
06-26-2003, 10:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph S.:</font><hr> Speaking of learning....I am awaiting your arrival Scott. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Ralph...See ya in 10 days!

Scott