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Sid_Vicious
06-27-2003, 02:21 PM
http://msnbc.com/news/931238.asp?0dm=C19MB

Seems like the administration is pushing for a change which will empower big business to work even a grocery stock boy OT without paying then. Check out this article...sid

eg8r
06-27-2003, 03:20 PM
Yup it sucks.

eg8r <~~Don't get overtime anyways, even if I work the hours

highsea
06-27-2003, 04:06 PM
Every exempt position I have held was tied to a profit sharing plan. I didn't mind the extra hours, because I was compensated in the long run.

I don't agree with the idea of taking traditionally non-exempt (blue-collar) positions and exempting them, unless the worker is given the choice to turn it down, and part of the deal is to get profit sharing bonuses.

I once worked for a company in a non-exempt capacity that required 66 hour work weeks. (5 10's and 2 8's) It was a unoin shop, and the OT was mandatory. I quit after a year, when I told my supervisor that I was going to take every weekend in March off, and he had a fit.

If this law was to go through, that company would have been able to require the extra hours without paying me?? No f-in way, Charlie.

This is one of the rare times I would side with the unions.

-CM

Sid_Vicious
06-27-2003, 05:05 PM
Yea there are perks usually given to exempt status, extra stock options amongst other things, but something tells me this is merely going to be a way for Big Business to get the OT savings, and any "usual" perks like those already given to the legacy employees will NOT be a laterally induced perks for the newbies. The ploy in tandem between the Repubs and big business just seems to keep on, keeping on. I definitely see an agenda, and the middle class ain't a beneficiary in that plan. This OT stripping idea is sneaky!!!sid

highsea
06-27-2003, 05:28 PM
I think it could have a couple unexpected repercussions also. I could see a big resurgence in unionizing among smaller businesses, (100 employees and under) coming out of this.

The bigger companies have to negotiate their deals with the unions anyway, but the smaller guys can usually keep the unions out.

You know how business owners love unions...if companies try to take away OT from the rank and file, it just may backfire on them.
-CM

Keith Talent
06-27-2003, 06:53 PM
At last, maybe limp Dems have an issue for fall. Folks in gated communities must be getting squeezed by the high cost of crocodile feed ... we need to sacrifice so they don't run short. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec
06-27-2003, 07:49 PM
Exactly. People like yourself and eg8r will not notice any dif.
Q

eg8r
06-27-2003, 07:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. People like yourself and eg8r will not notice any dif. <hr /></blockquote> You are right. People like me who work 5 to 10 hours every week minimum over time will not notice the difference. I already am not getting paid for the over time.

Did you have a point?

eg8r

Qtec
06-27-2003, 08:03 PM
You get paid for your work , [see highsea,s post].
This is another body swerve by the admin.
Who benefits from this? I dont think its the employee.
This is the same as the low pay workers not paying tax.Its another false method of keeping costs down for the employers.

More hours for the same pay = drop in wages.

Q

Keith Talent
06-27-2003, 08:04 PM
You getting comp time, or are you a stone martyr? Get tired just thinking of all those unpaid hours.

eg8r
06-27-2003, 08:09 PM
There is no comp time. You know going in how many hours you get paid vacation. The reason for the overtime is the workload. The work has to get done.

Worse yet, the new engineers coming onto the program know that there will be no more weekends for the next four years. Everyone gets the same vacation, benefits, etc coming in, and they all work the same overtime. The only way to get more vacation is to buy it, or to stay a few years.

eg8r

Keith Talent
06-27-2003, 08:14 PM
Ouch. It's not like you get those hours back someday, either. Guess you must get sumthin out of it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif And I was griping about having to put in 7 1/2 hours last night.

eg8r
06-27-2003, 08:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
More hours for the same pay = drop in wages.<hr /></blockquote> Thank you for showing the formula. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I don't think anyone had a question on what happens to the bottom dollar given x amount of hours worked.

I have already stated that I put in a decent amount of unpaid overtime. This is the law of the land. If you would like to work for the company that I work for, and you would like to work on the program that I am on, then you better also be able to work the hours.

On the last program I was on, we had to put in "green" time and our VP kept quarterly records. Green time is unpaid OT. If you were not putting in a minimum of 40 hrs "green" time, each quarter, then you were frowned upon.

After saying all this, you are correct in a previous post, I will not notice a difference at all. I have been working OT for free for about 5 years now and don't know any different.

As far as whether I agree with this bill, No. I do not agree, but either way it makes no difference to me.

eg8r

Qtec
06-27-2003, 08:23 PM
You are not telling me that they work 7 days p/week.
Hw many days vacation do you get ?

Why should anybody work for nothing ? I,m talking about working 60hrs and getting paid for 40 [ no bonus ].

Q

eg8r
06-27-2003, 08:24 PM
We do not get anything tangible back. At least not directly for the hours worked.

eg8r

06-27-2003, 09:14 PM
Same here, eg8r. While I don't agree with this legislation either, I personally won't gain or suffer from OT policies anyway.

I'm a senior engineer/developer for a major manufacturing company. I've been with this company for nearly 10 years now, and have never received overtime pay. We were a publicly traded Fortune 500 company until Warren Buffet (Berkshire Hathaway) bought us last year and we became a private holding, therefore we don't get stock options anymore. We don't get profit sharing or bonuses, nor is there an "official" comp time policy. If the job requires it, we're expected to work the overtime. My normal work day is 10 hours, often 12, sometimes 16. But as you say, if you want to work here, you're expected to carry your weight. Believe me, there is a line a mile long for my job. I love what I do, and I'm fond of the company I'm with.

OT pay isn't everything. I put in my time without being asked, because the job requires it and I have a very strong work ethic. I may not get paid for the extra time, at least not directly or immediately. BUT, the rewards show up in other ways, long-term. Primarily, as recognition. For example, when performance evaluations roll around every year, guess who always rates at or near the top of the charts. While the slackers are micro-managed and given very little respect and voice in how things are done, I'm given free reign and a blank check to get my job done as I see fit, without interference. I'm consulted to provide input on company standards and direction. I have never had a request denied for equipment or resources, while others can't get a new stapler or are stuck with a 4 year old PC. I get the promotions, get time off whenever I need it (sometimes comp time), and according to my boss and HR, pull down a higher salary than my peers. And yes, some "peers" resent me for all of that, without realizing that if they didn't worry so much about watching the clock and slipping out 15 minutes early that they too could be rewarded as I am.

So you see, OT is not a big deal to me either. In my line of work, OT is just an investment in your future. The rewards I get for putting in the extra work are far more valuable "long-term" than OT pay.

Qtec
06-27-2003, 10:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
For example, when performance evaluations roll around every year, guess who always rates at or near the top of the charts. While the slackers are micro-managed and given very little respect and voice in how things are done, I'm given free reign and a blank check to get my job done as I see fit, without interference. I'm consulted to provide input on company standards and direction. I have never had a request denied for equipment or resources, while others can't get a new stapler or are stuck with a 4 year old PC. I get the promotions, get time off whenever I need it (sometimes comp time), and according to my boss and HR, pull down a higher salary than my peers. And yes, some "peers" resent me for all of that, without realizing that if they didn't worry so much about watching the clock and slipping out 15 minutes early that they too could be rewarded as I am.
<hr /></blockquote>

When you say 'slackers',do you mean the workers that want to be paid for the hours they work?

Do you have job security ?
If you got fired tomorrow , would you still see all those unpaid hours as an investment or as exploitation ?
There is also a difference between motivation and humiliation .Its easy to get rich when you can get people to work for nothing .

Q

Keith Talent
06-28-2003, 12:53 AM
eg8r,

Guess I meant you must get some sort of satisfaction from your job, or from the the way you're treated for being one of the more conscientious people there. Just as dmorris put it.

Still, I think it's awful that companies, or the feds, drive people this way, creating a culture where it's expected that you work beyond the normal 40-hour week -- established when, back in the '30s? -- and get nothing much extra for all the time they're claiming from your life, except the feeling you probably won't get thrown out on the street. Please don't tell me they frown on your taking all of your vacation days.

But nobody's got a gun to your head, I guess. Then again, you gotta work or they're gonna lock you up, so we've all got the fear, deep down, of what could happen if we step out of line.

Me, I've been in situations where the company was deliberately undermanned and everybody put in 12 hours. But I got out ... where I am now, most of us put in half that, for twice what I got paid in that sorry old sweatshop. Of course, the work's pretty specialized and very intense for 2-3 hours a night, but the rest of the time, it ain't too bad. And it's producing under deadline pressure that keeps me employed. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

So, guess we all got to take our lumps. Don't think the OT biz will affect me, either ... there isn't much available, but managers all get comp time, and the rest of us get OT. Don't see that changing, or there'd be an exodus, especially since we haven't had a raise in 2 years. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

highsea
06-28-2003, 02:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> snip...I'm a senior engineer/developer for a major manufacturing company. I've been with this company for nearly 10 years now, and have never received overtime pay. <font color="red"> cough..., sorry.. </font color> ... If the job requires it, we're expected to work the overtime. My normal work day is 10 hours, often 12, sometimes 16. ( <font color="red"> CM says, </font color> "are you listening Qtec?") But as you say, if you want to work here, you're expected to carry your weight. Believe me, there is a line a mile long for my job. I love what I do, and I'm fond of the company I'm with. <font color="red"> &lt;shortened for brevity&gt;... </font color> I put in my time without being asked, because the job requires it and I have a very strong work ethic. I may not get paid for the extra time, at least not directly or immediately. BUT, the rewards show up in other ways, long-term. <font color="red"> cough </font color> ...Primarily, as recognition. <font color="red"> cough </font color> ...So you see, OT is not a big deal to me either. In my line of work, OT is just an investment in your future. The rewards I get for putting in the extra <font color="red"> cough, cough, sorry, dave , something in my throat.. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

I'm being a devil's advocate here. Qtec is not cognizant of the demands on the US worker. He only can relate from experience to the european workplace. To Qtec, these work ethics really are unconscionable. Try to see his perspective.

(Q, FYI, this really is the way we work over here.)

Now for my 2 cents. Dave, you are getting f*cked. As long as you are satisfied with this arrangement, then it's nobodies business, and I wish you the best. But I have been in your spot, and I can say you are getting f*cked.

The reason I say this, is this; your company can hire a new (general) manager anytime they want. This new manager can decide that you are a skuzz, and shitcan you. You will be (literally) helpless against this. You will have zippo to show for your 10 years of diligence, unless you have beat them into an ownership position. This has happened to me, so I speak from experience.

I spent 8 years building a company just to have this very thing happen. It was "the best thing for the company" That means that the GM realized that I had put processes in place (over 8 years) that would sustain themselves without my direct supervision. It was cheaper for the company to dump me (they were paying me some 80K/yr) and let my processes and underlings take over, than to keep me on. Shortsighteded on their part, but nobody ever accused upper management of being overly intelligent...I get the last laugh, because it only took them 5 years to tank the whole operation. (But it's a hollow victory.)

The reward for doing a good job is to be overworked.

-CM &lt;~~~not trying to be a pinko... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

highsea
06-28-2003, 02:48 AM
Then again, maybe I'm just grumpy cause I shot $hitty tonight. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

-CM

highsea
06-28-2003, 03:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
When you say 'slackers',do you mean the workers that want to be paid for the hours they work?

Do you have job security ?
If you got fired tomorrow , would you still see all those unpaid hours as an investment or as exploitation ?
There is also a difference between motivation and humiliation .Its easy to get rich when you can get people to work for nothing .
Q<hr /></blockquote>

That is dead on the money, my friend. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

-CM

eg8r
06-28-2003, 08:52 AM
Sure I get plenty of satisfaction. I enjoy what I do, and I enjoy seeing how the whole process comes together.

I no longer work in an environment where you "have" to put in the time, it is more an environment where the work has to get done. You figure out how you are going to do it. The program I am on, is an award fee based program, meaning we only get paid as we meet milestones. The company is very driven to meet the milestones at a very high level of quality.

One of the odd things about this program different from the rest I have worked on is that they stress balance in your life. The balance between work life and personal life. They have no problem with you taking all your vacation days, and they have no problem with me leaving early if I need to take care of something. It really is a great situation.

The main reason there will be no more weekends for the next 4 years for the engineers is that we have 3 variants of the same plane running down the line at the same time. This has never been done before and it is going to be quite exciting.

eg8r &lt;~~~Loves his job

eg8r
06-28-2003, 08:54 AM
Very well put. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
06-28-2003, 09:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When you say 'slackers',do you mean the workers that want to be paid for the hours they work? <font color="blue"> Are you so blind to not understand what salary means. I think he gave an example of the slacker when he mentioned the guy trying to leave 15 minutes early. I will give you another example of a slacker...Growing up, my father owned a few different businesses, and one of them was a welding/repair shop. He would have workers cleaning up and washing their hands 10 minutes before their shift was over. That is a slacker. You do not start to clean up till the shift is over. With the 5 men working for us, and each of them taking 10 minutes before their lunch and 10 minutes before the work day is over, and add that up over the next 5 years we had a lot of wasted time. That wasted time was paid to slackers. </font color>

Do you have job security ? <font color="blue"> Not in the sense you are thinking. </font color>
If you got fired tomorrow , would you still see all those unpaid hours as an investment or as exploitation ? <font color="blue"> Is this how you look at the rest of your investments? Do you invest in a stock market? If your stock goes in the crapper do you consider that an investment or exploitation? I look at my time the same way, it is an investment. If the investment falls through, I am hurt but I move on. It is easier to go through life without a chip on your shoulder. You obviously think you deserve to have the job, I feel I am lucky to have the job. </font color>
There is also a difference between motivation and humiliation . <font color="blue"> You are right, I am motivated to be the best employee I can be. My motivation is the raise that comes each year. Do my best, and I will be paid accordingly for right now. </font color>

Its easy to get rich when you can get people to work for nothing . <font color="blue"> There are many small businesses out there and they are not getting rich. Each one of them has a job to do, and it has to get done. If you can get it done in 40 hours, good job, if you can't, then keep working. There is a deadline and you must meet it. If you spent less time worrying about how other people were making money, you might have been able to make a little for yourself along the way. </font color>
Q
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr>
That is dead on the money, my friend. <hr /></blockquote>
<hr /></blockquote> I am not so sure it is dead on. It is more in line with selfish thinking if you ask me. It sucks if you work hard that whole time and they leave you out in the cold, but when did you start thinking you were not expendable? Don't cloud you minds with how wonderful you are, because everyone can be replaced.

Also, I am sure you fell on your feet and found another position. Sure it is a pain in the butt (I have been through this myself), however you were still rewarded in finding another job.

If you go to work everyday wondering if you are making your owner rich, then why even work. Why not go to work, with the simple attitude that you are going to do your job and you are going to get paid the agreed upon amount. That is what you felt that job was worth. If you feel you are being paid unfairly, then leave, but remember you were the one that accepted the position. Whether the owner is getting rich because you are salaried/exempt and working over 40 hours, so what, you accepted the job that was offered.

eg8r

Qtec
06-28-2003, 09:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When you say 'slackers',do you mean the workers that want to be paid for the hours they work? <font color="blue"> Are you so blind to not understand what salary means. I think he gave an example of the slacker when he mentioned the guy trying to leave 15 minutes early. I will give you another example of a slacker...Growing up, my father owned a few different businesses, and one of them was a welding/repair shop. He would have workers cleaning up and washing their hands 10 minutes before their shift was over. That is a slacker. You do not start to clean up till the shift is over. With the 5 men working for us, and each of them taking 10 minutes before their lunch and 10 minutes before the work day is over, and add that up over the next 5 years we had a lot of wasted time. That wasted time was paid to slackers. </font color>
<font color="purple"> A slacker is someone who worhs 50 mins and expects to be paid for an hour.
You want your workers to work 1h 10 min and pay them for an hour. You , as employer , want something for nothing . </font color>

Do you have job security ? <font color="blue"> Not in the sense you are thinking. </font color>
They could fire you in a heartbeat .

If you got fired tomorrow , would you still see all those unpaid hours as an investment or as exploitation ? <font color="blue"> Is this how you look at the rest of your investments? Do you invest in a stock market? If your stock goes in the crapper do you consider that an investment or exploitation? I look at my time the same way, it is an investment. If the investment falls through, I am hurt but I move on. It is easier to go through life without a chip on your shoulder. You obviously think you deserve to have the job, I feel I am lucky to have the job. </font color>

<font color="purple"> Yes you are lucky . You have already stated that you are rewarded for your efforts. This is about working extra hours and not being paid . If you complain , you are out . The whole point of unions was to fight these practices. Unlike you , most people , do live from paycheck to paycheck .
As for the ridiculous comparrison with stocks .The difference is that to BUY shares you need MONEY .Shares are cash . Goodwill and the boss liking you are not liquid assets.</font color>


There is also a difference between motivation and humiliation . <font color="blue"> You are right, I am motivated to be the best employee I can be. My motivation is the raise that comes each year. Do my best, and I will be paid accordingly for right now. </font color>

Its easy to get rich when you can get people to work for nothing . <font color="blue"> There are many small businesses out there and they are not getting rich. Each one of them has a job to do, and it has to get done. If you can get it done in 40 hours, good job, if you can't, then keep working. There is a deadline and you must meet it. If you spent less time worrying about how other people were making money, you might have been able to make a little for yourself along the way. </font color>
Q
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr>
That is dead on the money, my friend. <hr /></blockquote>
<hr /></blockquote> I am not so sure it is dead on. It is more in line with selfish thinking if you ask me. It sucks if you work hard that whole time and they leave you out in the cold, but when did you start thinking you were not expendable? Don't cloud you minds with how wonderful you are, because everyone can be replaced.

Also, I am sure you fell on your feet and found another position. Sure it is a pain in the butt (I have been through this myself), however you were still rewarded in finding another job.

If you go to work everyday wondering if you are making your owner rich, then why even work. Why not go to work, with the simple attitude that you are going to do your job and you are going to get paid the agreed upon amount. That is what you felt that job was worth. If you feel you are being paid unfairly, then leave, but remember you were the one that accepted the position. Whether the owner is getting rich because you are salaried/exempt and working over 40 hours, so what, you accepted the job that was offered.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>


The question is , "Do you work to live or do you live to work ".

Q

Sid_Vicious
06-28-2003, 11:14 AM
"The main reason there will be no more weekends for the next 4 years for the engineers is that we have 3 variants of the same plane running down the line at the same time. This has never been done before and it is going to be quite exciting."

Ed...your wording here reminds me of the driven nature my ex-wife had through her managerial climb up the corporate ladder, and believe me, it drove our relationship into the ground! Up before daybreak, getting home after dark, falling asleep and missing that quality time with the spouse...well, it fed upon itself with each "pat on the back by the boss" and it killed us. You workers who thrive on what they do at work, who accept and volunteer for more duties, many times become "other people" than the ones that truly have balance in their lives. I'd personally look back after 4 years of no weekends and wonder what it meant to the truly important things, MY time which is so precious once life winds itself down, realizing I had the choice back then and gave my time away, never to be had again, it's simply gone forever! Everybody's case is different, each relationship has some common goals, mine happened to be to share more time, not take more away, and the drive which you and my ex seem to have in common, the quest to be really excited over the job, sometimes dominates the balance until there is no balance anymore. Forcibly take away my OT, give big business my time for free,,,well I ain't going to be a happy camper and it will more than likely take it's toll on our average American couple(not saying you Ed, but many.) It's total BS!

Bottom line is that the fortune of small companies is made thru free overtime, and I'm believing that this latest step back by our president and those who steer him, is total crap. It's all about big business and bigger profits, all done at the expense of(IMPO) stealing my personal time, FOR NUTHIN! sid~~~can spell socialism

eg8r
06-28-2003, 11:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
A slacker is someone who worhs 50 mins and expects to be paid for an hour.
You want your workers to work 1h 10 min and pay them for an hour. You , as employer , want something for nothing .
<hr /></blockquote> Yup, that is a slacker. I did not say I wanted them to work 1 h 10 min. You did. I said we wanted them to work for a full hour. Cleaning up (speaking about their body) is not work and should be done on your own time.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes you are lucky . You have already stated that you are rewarded for your efforts. This is about working extra hours and not being paid . If you complain , you are out . The whole point of unions was to fight these practices. Unlike you , most people , do live from paycheck to paycheck .
As for the ridiculous comparrison with stocks .The difference is that to BUY shares you need MONEY .Shares are cash . Goodwill and the boss liking you are not liquid assets. <hr /></blockquote> Once again, you are worried about the almighty dollar. The comparison works just fine. In order to comprehend what I am saying, you must be able to get past the point of how each of these is attained (time or stock) and look at the output (stock plumets/rises, I keep a job/lose a job). If I put my in my time (invest in stocks) and I get fired (stocks plumet) then I am sorry, however if the opposite happens then it is different. Either way, it is an investment.

The problem you are having with all this is that you are lumping everything into one bucket. It is not all about working an extra 10 minutes and not getting paid (or and extra 10 hours). There are different situations. In my case, there is a job that needs to be done by a certain deadline. I am not given a specific amount of hours to complete it like 40 hrs. I am given a date in which it must be done. Get it done however you want but make sure it is complete. 10 hours or 50 hours, I am paid the same.

[ QUOTE ]
The question is , "Do you work to live or do you live to work ". <hr /></blockquote> The question is BS. I live to live. I work to afford the niceties and necessities.

eg8r

eg8r
06-28-2003, 11:34 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I'd personally look back after 4 years of no weekends and wonder what it meant to the truly important things, MY time which is so precious once life winds itself down, realizing I had the choice back then and gave my time away, never to be had again, it's simply gone forever! <hr /></blockquote> This is the difference between us. MY time was chosen being part of something I believed in. I am not sure this is anything you can/can't understand, but on that first flight come 2005 when that plane lifts off the ground, I wonder how many people will be crying in joy, and how many people will be thinking like you do. What happens in 2006 when the 2nd variant lifts off the carrier and flies off. I am sure once again there will be more people crying tears of joy, then those sitting back (much like you) thinking about all those wasted years. Then finally in 2007 when the 3rd variant lifts off the ground straight up into the air and hovers for a minute and the proceeds in forward flight, only to stop again and hover for another minute before it comes straight down and lands. Do you think those same people will be crying again? I am sure they will.

If you had seen the battle of the X-Planes on Nova a few months back could you point out the people in that room with the defeatist look on their face much like you are telling me you would feel? I bet you cannot.

[ QUOTE ]
Forcibly take away my OT, give big business my time for free,,,It's total BS! <hr /></blockquote> I wish I could see you on your podium yelling this out to your supporters. I would stand their with my sign saying "Welcome to the Republican party". I know that this is changing the subject and please accept my apology, but this is the same statement in which all the liberals chastise those hated "rich" for wanting to keep their own money. Read you sentence again, and put the words "hard earned money" in place of OT, and you will see what I mean. Your OT is no different than my tax dollars.

I am now back off the tax soapbox, again I am sorry I allowed that to happen. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I have already stated that I think it sucks to take away OT pay. I am not arguing that, but, if you choose to take a position with a company and you accept the terms of the deal, then you need to fess up and deal with it. If it means putting in extra hours, then do it. If it means leaving the job to find another, then do that. My point is that you are not making anyone richer because you put in some overtime and did not get paid for it.

eg8r

Sid_Vicious
06-28-2003, 12:21 PM
"My point is that you are not making anyone richer because you put in some overtime and did not get paid for it."

I humbly do not understand how you can say that. If I'm getting non exempt wages and nothing changes in that wage scale and yet OT is now given time, it HAS to add wealth to big business. But, we do have the right to disagree. Thanks for the parlay, it is good that a conversation can exist here without a fever being built up. It shows the class which exists in many of the people posting here...sid~~~hopes my non-ex status will remain in tact, and I'm not forced to change...not enough jobs out there to simply find a new one

Wally_in_Cincy
06-28-2003, 12:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>

...My point is that you are not making anyone richer because you put in some overtime and did not get paid for it.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

I'm with Sid on this one dude. That statement does not make sense. I've made a couple of employers wealthier by working unpaid overtime. But it did help me also in the long run (I got tired of it and went and got a better job /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif )

Wally_in_Cincy
06-28-2003, 12:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr>
....I'm a senior engineer/developer for a major manufacturing company.

.....I love what I do, and I'm fond of the company I'm with.

.....<hr /></blockquote>

highsea seems to think you're getting screwed. I disagree. Sounds like you got it goin' on to me. When you are in a senior position, or an architect or engineer and you've got mucho dinero in company funds depending on your work, you just gotta do what you gotta do.

If you eventually get tired of what you're doing, you simply move on to something else. I've done it and probably will again.

06-28-2003, 01:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr>
....I'm a senior engineer/developer for a major manufacturing company.

.....I love what I do, and I'm fond of the company I'm with.

.....<hr /></blockquote>

highsea seems to think you're getting screwed. I disagree. Sounds like you got it goin' on to me. When you are in a senior position, or an architect or engineer and you've got mucho dinero in company funds depending on your work, you just gotta do what you gotta do.

If you eventually get tired of what you're doing, you simply move on to something else. I've done it and probably will again. <hr /></blockquote>Thanks, Wally. You know what I'm talking about, then.

I certainly don't feel like I'm getting screwed. I'm never ASKED to put in the hours I do -- in fact, the division director and our VP/CIO has often stopped by my office and told me I should go home. My boss just told me in my recent performance review that he sees me in the office when he arrives, and still there when he leaves, and it's much appreciated. Like I said, they remember me for that, and I'm recognized and rewarded for it later. When I need to get out of the office to run an errand, or I need a new piece of equipment or software or whatever, no questions are ever asked, I always get what I ask for and I'm free to do as I please. Because they know they can depend on me. That's far more valuable in my book than time-and-a-half. I suspect most of the comments toward myself and eg8r on this subject have been from those unfortunate enough to have a high-paying job they love where they are recognized and appreciated for their efforts.

Believe me, guys, if I didn't like what I do and didn't feel my time was a worthwhile investment, I wouldn't be there doing it. And I agree that if I *was* accustomed to OT pay, I would be more than pi$$ed at losing it. Don't think I don't feel sorry for those who will lose the pay. I'm hoping the companies realize they can't take advantage of that situation to mistreat their employees, or morale will decline and turnover will increase -- both potentially very expensive propositions for businesses that could wind up costing them more than OT pay in the long-term.

highsea
06-28-2003, 02:48 PM
Dave and Ed, don't get me wrong. I am glad you guys like what you are doing and feel rewarded.

My position was very similar, however. Yes, I had autonomy, say so in the way the business was run, respect from the owner and my employees, freedom to operate the way I felt was best. This was also a manufacturing company.

I had an agreement with the owner of the company for a partial ownership position. This is why I put in 16 hour days for 8 years. I truly did believe that I had a vested interest in the company's success.

I started out with 15 workers, grossing 800K/year. The company was on it's deathbed. Within 5 years I had the same 15 workers grossing 5Mil/year. (Without working them overtime) We completely retooled, split off two new companies, and moved into a new 200,000 sq. ft. facility which we purchased for 2.5Mil. All in 5 years. My agreement was to get an ownership percentage of the two spin-off companies also. (BTW, I helped machine the first successful set of F-22 wing spars)

When I questioned some decisions made by the new general manager (who had never managed a manufacturing company, he came from a sales background), I was terminated without any severance. (I was paid my back vacation pay, because I had been unable to take vacations for the prior 3 years.) Incidentally, the dispute was over selling some tools to Iraq through a third country (Saudi Arabia). I refused to build the tools.

I did not spend those 8 years with that company just for the paycheck. I believed I was building my retirement. When that was taken away, you better believe I was pi$$ed.

All the pats on the back I got over the years became pretty meaningless pretty fast.

Should I have sued? Probably. We were in contract negotiations at the time, and I had been offered a long term contract by the owner, but had not signed it yet.

Instead I chose to go on with my life, and work as an independant contractor instead of going back into the corporate world.

I never said I was indespensable or unreplaceable. But I worked hard to make that company a success, and got screwed out of the rewards for my efforts. I hope your companies treat you guys better than mine treated me.

-CM

bluewolf
06-28-2003, 03:16 PM
You can be sooo bad!!!! It is hard sometimes to see humor on a forum, but either you do not buy into the american system because you think other countries do it better or you like stirring people up /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

All of this time, I thought eg8r was picking on you and now I am wondering if you are pushing his buttons for fun. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Laura

eg8r
06-28-2003, 05:14 PM
I really do not think anyone is getting any richer. What is the overhead costs just to keep you there? I am sure, lights, AC, computer equipment, network equipment, etc could be turned off it you were not in there working and using them.

What about the sick time that is available to you when you need it? What about the portion of your benefits that the company covers? What about any matching that happens in your 401k?

If you think your time is so valuable that you are making someone rich just because you worked some OT then go on thinking it.

eg8r

eg8r
06-28-2003, 05:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
humbly do not understand how you can say that. If I'm getting non exempt wages and nothing changes in that wage scale and yet OT is now given time, it HAS to add wealth to big business. <hr /></blockquote> Is it adding wealth, or are you becoming cheaper labor? (that was a joke /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) Really you need to get off this big business stuff. Are they the only people doing it? I would bet there are more small businesses out there getting away with it, than there are large corporations. I could be wrong. Also, you stated it yourself, you are not making any one person more wealthy, you leaving some money in the business.

I wish you did get paid and I understand you might have hard feelings towards it, but you as one individual working some OT are not making anyone wealthy. How many hours are we talking about? As non-exempt, I thought you were entitled to the money, so I guess I am wrong about that, but I have never worked non-exempt (career-wise) so I have always had un-paid OT. I sort of lump it up with all the other goodies they offer.

eg8r

eg8r
06-28-2003, 05:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Believe me, guys, if I didn't like what I do and didn't feel my time was a worthwhile investment, I wouldn't be there doing it. And I agree that if I *was* accustomed to OT pay, I would be more than pi$$ed at losing it. Don't think I don't feel sorry for those who will lose the pay. I'm hoping the companies realize they can't take advantage of that situation to mistreat their employees, or morale will decline and turnover will increase -- both potentially very expensive propositions for businesses that could wind up costing them more than OT pay in the long-term. <hr /></blockquote> I could not say it any better.

I also love what I do, and pretty passionate about the program that I am on. I work the hours to get the job done quickly and at a high level of quality. I do not get the OT, but my performance appraisals have never been less than excellent.

I have said it before, I never did receive OT pay, so I am accustomed to working the way I do without it. If I was getting it before and it stopped I would be just as upset.

eg8r

eg8r
06-28-2003, 05:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I never said I was indespensable or unreplaceable. But I worked hard to make that company a success, and got screwed out of the rewards for my efforts. I hope your companies treat you guys better than mine treated me. <hr /></blockquote> I by no means am anywhere near that level of management, however I agree I would be pissed also. I am sorry for what happened and quite happy that you have rebounded well.

The whole OT thing is pretty nasty. The union guys all get paid OT but you should see the time clocks 5 minutes before their shifts are over. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif They are jam packed 20 deep chatting and talking waiting to clock out. Now the company from what I have seen has never asked all those people to pay back their 10 mins per day (5 before lunch, and 5 at the end of the day) and I wonder just how much money is wasted on them standing there waiting. There are like 4 or 5 thousand union workers at the plant each day. I would say a quarter of them are late (allowed to be late 15 minutes and still receive pay. I only know this because I have a meeting in another building in town a half hour before their day begins and they are all still waiting out by the light trying to get in. Traffic gets backed up in the mornings) and they all wait to clock out 5 minutes before the end of the day (if their manager does not stop it). Do you think those people are as casual with their OT if they work 15 extra minutes. I do not think so. They are protected by the union and they ride it as much as they can.

eg8r

Sid_Vicious
06-28-2003, 09:09 PM
"What about the sick time that is available to you when you need it?"

Yea I wish! That perk was taken away by another invention to boost corporate wealth, the time bank, and that TB cost me benefits too, including several days less time off, BESIDES the stripping away of sick days. I think we need to face it...big business is married to the admin...sid

Qtec
06-29-2003, 05:06 AM
Laura , this is a serious debate. I dont push any buttons , thats not what I am about. eg8r and I just have different view points .
I am right and he is wrong. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Q

Qtec
06-29-2003, 05:10 AM
Sid , tell me more about the sick/time bank.
Q

Qtec
06-29-2003, 07:48 AM
What is the point of this proposal ?
Who benefits?

87% of the US workforce works in services. Only 17% are involved in manufacturing .Its in the small buisnesses that the most liberties will be taken .

You are in a completly different position. You do get paid for your effort , If you meet your deadlines you will get rewarded. This bill is just a stick for the employers to beat their workers into working for less .
It is obvious that you are completely incapable of looking at things from any other viewpoint than your own set of personal circumstances. Is this another example of you being "non open minded ".


To digress for a momment [ maybe another thread] ,this plane , sounds great , just one question , WHY?
Who pays?
Does America REALLY need more planes ?
Isnt the Stealth EXPENSIVE enough ?
How many weapons do you need to feel safe ? Is it 10times , 20 times more bombs than everybody else ?
Isnt the Defense industry just "a black hole that is constantly fed by tax dollars"

The arms race is over ,havent you heard ! You won .


Your plane sounds like the Harrier jump jet . /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q

Sid_Vicious
06-29-2003, 07:56 AM
"but either you do not buy into the american system because you think other countries do it better or you like stirring people up"

BW...The point is, the USA has always done it better, but the point for today is that our government, who happens to have the ruling legislative power to push anything through to be law, is quickly bruising and bullying that American system into a 1-world order type of society. I've heard this phrase "Well if you don't think America is still better that the rest of the world..." I'm simply getting ready to heave chunks hearing it again! Our country NEVER saw prosperity like it did in the 8 years under Clinton, and I honestly feel that was because the administration had it's hands tied due to a divided legislative situation, not because of any special things that Clinton himself did. So we Americans kinda ran ourselves. These Republicans are after one thing, power and control. This OT, Non-ex and Exempt status thing, stripping my OT away, from the salary far from great, supporting a mortgage solely by myself since 1993,,,well this great American president and his ruling legislative buddies are eroding those abilities, and for what...more money for big business. Funny damn thing is that the Republican party has always been labeled by non-repubs as being "specially interested" in big business, but now the republicans don't even try to disguise it, in fact it's made very apparent.

It is depressing the way we Americans have accepted some of the changes done since 2001 like a baby bird waiting for another feeding, all in the name of either partisanship or terror. We are selling ourselves out. I never considered myself reb/dem/whatever but today I'm definetely NOT dam republican. Call me "sooo bad" BW...this kind of crap can get me waaaay past the mood I'm in today. Believe me, when the mortgage is short and the dogs are in danger of being fed because of a dwindling paycheck...I get REAL testy!!!sid~~~wagers that Laura in not a Non-Ex

Sid_Vicious
06-29-2003, 08:57 AM
"Really you need to get off this big business stuff."

When the Republicans stop showing particular interest in big business AS THEY OBVIOUSLY ARE TODAY, then I'll chill. Otherwise, I will continue to point out each and every occurrance I observe....sid~~~his bank likes his checks staying non-rubber'd

Qtec
06-29-2003, 09:10 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Incidentally, the dispute was over selling some tools to Iraq through a third country (Saudi Arabia). I refused to build the tools.
<hr /></blockquote>

Interesting ! Please tell more . When was this ?

Q

Qtec
06-29-2003, 09:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I work the hours to get the job done quickly and at a high level of quality. I do not get the OT, but my performance appraisals have never been less than excellent. <hr /></blockquote>



said the actress to the Bishop. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Q

highsea
06-29-2003, 10:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> Incidentally, the dispute was over selling some tools to Iraq through a third country (Saudi Arabia). I refused to build the tools. <hr /></blockquote>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote qtec:</font><hr>Interesting ! Please tell more . When was this ?
Q <hr /></blockquote>

It was in '93 I will PM you, this is not relavent to this thread, and I probably should not discuss it on the board.

-CM

bluewolf
06-29-2003, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> It is depressing the way we Americans have accepted some of the changes done since 2001 like a baby bird waiting for another feeding, all in the name of either partisanship or terror. We are selling ourselves out. I never considered myself reb/dem/whatever but today I'm definetely NOT dam republican. Call me "sooo bad" BW...this kind of crap can get me waaaay past the mood I'm in today. Believe me, when the mortgage is short and the dogs are in danger of being fed because of a dwindling paycheck...I get REAL testy!!!sid~~~wagers that Laura in not a Non-Ex <hr /></blockquote>

Hey sid. It sounds real sucky to me. Have seen things moving this way for a long time. Being exempt used to have perks. Now the trend is to make people exempt, convince them they are getting status and work them like dogs. My husband is doing it and my son has done it. So many are buying into this. I agree this is even worse.

This is the lure of things like amway or selling kirby's. The pitch, why keep making someone else rich while you just get worked like a dog? Well not too many people get rich that way either.

I dont usually discuss politics because my views are so different than 95% of people that most people get real upset when they hear them.

So firstly, yes this is bad.
Secondly, I was jesting with Qtec a bit.

Sorry, sometimes humor just does not come across.

Laura

eg8r
06-29-2003, 01:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What is the point of this proposal ? <font color="blue"> Not sure. What is your point? </font color>
Who benefits? <font color="blue"> The company. </font color>

87% of the US workforce works in services. Only 17% are involved in manufacturing .Its in the small buisnesses that the most liberties will be taken .

You are in a completly different position. You do get paid for your effort , If you meet your deadlines you will get rewarded. <font color="blue"> Reading comprehension has not been your strong suit has it. Once again you failed to comprehend what you were reading. I said the program is award based. Not myself. I do get raises if I perform to a certain level, but that is once a year and afforded to everyone. </font color> This bill is just a stick for the employers to beat their workers into working for less .
It is obvious that you are completely incapable of looking at things from any other viewpoint than your own set of personal circumstances. Is this another example of you being "non open minded ". <font color="blue"> Show me an example of when you were able to look at another view point. You have made more anti-Bush posts than anyone on this board ever. You have never sided or changed your viewpoint once. You are a hypocrite and you are going to be treated as such. </font color>


To digress for a momment [ maybe another thread] ,this plane , sounds great , just one question , WHY? <font color="blue"> Aging planes already out in combat. </font color>
Who pays? <font color="blue"> As of right now, we have 9 partner countries that are paying, with over 15 countries in total helping put everything together. Your simple minded look at this whole process is that only the US government is getting anything from this plane. You fail to realize that in one year we have given 5000 people jobs in a failing economy. You fail to realize that this current job secures us right now funding for about 19 years or until the next buy comes through. You fail to realize that there are also about 3500 employees of other countries that are also working on this program in their own manufacturing plants. You fail to realize the magnitude of most things and you rest on your hated for the current administration. It might be time for you to do a little research instead of asking pointed questions that lead in only one direction. When are you going to say good job for helping close to 9000 people find a job?</font color>
Does America REALLY need more planes ? <font color="blue"> Are you ignorant enough to think that these are more planes or could they be replacement of retiring planes that we have been flying since the late 70's early 80's? </font color>
Isnt the Stealth EXPENSIVE enough ? <font color="blue"> Do you know anything about the stealth? Is it a true fighter? Do you think the stealth is a good weapon to go into Air to Air combat? </font color>
How many weapons do you need to feel safe ? <font color="blue"> We need just enough to make sure we win in the end. How many do you think? Please answer this stupid question you keep asking. HOW MANY WEAPONS DOES QTEC THINK IT TAKES TO KEEP AMERICA SAFE? </font color> Is it 10times , 20 times more bombs than everybody else ? <font color="blue"> Are you one to rest on your laurels or do you constantly go out and look to do better. The bombs and such that are being developed today replace what is there, they are not intended to be an addition. You do not see any of the extra bombs from WWII or Vietnam being dropped today do you? No, the bombs you saw dropped in the most recent war were the ones developed in the last decade. What else do you have? </font color>
Isnt the Defense industry just "a black hole that is constantly fed by tax dollars" <font color="blue"> Is that a question? Rhetorical? </font color>

The arms race is over ,havent you heard ! You won . <font color="blue"> Hey so is the cold war. Why do you think Korea, India and Iran are developing nuclear weapons? I figure they are as astute as your are on these issues. Surely you are not the smartest person on the planet, why don't they have the knowledge as you? If we were to become stagnant and not do anything to improve the weaponry that we already have we might lose one of these times. I wonder, if we lose the next one, will your wonderfully run country be sending over billions of dollars to help us? </font color>


Your plane sounds like the Harrier jump jet . <font color="blue"> Yup, just like this statement sounds like you know a little something about pool. When was the last time you saw a harrier lift straight up off the ground, then fly at supersonic speeds? Come on, keep up the ignorance and humor me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Since you mention the Harrier, do you know why it is an inferior STOVL plane? What are the differences between the one being designed now and the Harrier already out there?</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

eg8r

Qtec
06-29-2003, 01:53 PM
No , I am not the smartest person in the world. Never said I was . I,m not the most gulable either.
Q

Chris Cass
06-29-2003, 02:03 PM
HAHAHAHAHA,

Now that's funny....

C.C.~~likes Q's attitude. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec
06-29-2003, 03:44 PM
Thanks Chris , its nice to know that i am appreciated. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
All I offer is another point of view .
For instance ,
Nike sponsers sport because it wants people to wear its products.

Bridgestone sponsers F1 because it wants to sell tyres.

If you sell umbrellas you want it to rain.

If you sell arms or weapons, what do you want ? How about war ? Conflict ? How about instilling fear in your own people , so you can justify spending BILLIONS of tax dollars , on hi tec weaponry that you dont need . 9/11 was 20 fanatics armed with knives . Star wars isnt going to stop these people .

For things to get better in the world we have to be honest. Stop treating the symptoms and not the cause .This approach would be fought tooth and nail by the defense industry. Why ? NO PROFIT.

Defense industry sponsers Govt. , Govt. pays back by spending more on defence , defense industry sponsers Govt............................etc

Q