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View Full Version : Is there really a difference?



Ralph S.
06-29-2003, 07:27 PM
Today I played in a 9ball tourney and afterwards was playing some sets with the room owner. The two people on the table next to us were playing, with one of them being one of the top shortstops in our town and the other a waitress that works in the pool room.

The SS was helping the girl out, giving her some lessons and pointers. She is very good for a beginning player and the subject of racking came up. I was listening while playing and the SS says that a proper rack {all the balls touching and headball on proper spot} is more important in 9ball than 8ball.

I abruptly stopped shooting and mention that I disagreed with his view point. He says it is due to the larger number of balls in 8 ball. I still disagree.

Do any of you think that a proper rack matters more in one game than it does in the other. I would really like some feedback.

bolo
06-29-2003, 09:20 PM
In nineball the corner balls can become dead if they are not frozen. In fact as the breaker, I don't care if the rack is a little loose, balls seem to go in more.

nAz
06-29-2003, 09:33 PM
Hey Bolo, As the breaker I want the rack tight esecially the first 6 balls, However i do not mind if the last three balls are a little loose i believe that will give the 9B a better chance of getting pocketed. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif As for 8B same thing I seem to break better if the first 6balls are tight, even though i break for the 2nd ball on the left side.

Patrick
06-29-2003, 09:34 PM
If you just use a luck break then it doesn't matter much, but when you try to control all balls in the rack (like in Rotation Straight Pool), then it is very important that all balls are frozen.
If your break in 9-ball is very weak, then it is also important for the rack to be good. But if your break is very fast, then it may be an advantage to have spaces in the rack, because the balls will then take a different path. If you have a 40 mph break and the rack is frozen, then the balls will spread too much and come back to the lower half of the table, and then the balls will not be spread evenly. With a weak 25 mph break you get a good spread of the table with the rack frozen.
You need to adjust your break speed to match with how big the spaces are in the rack. The bigger gaps there are in the rack, the harder it is to control it and the more luck it gets.

So if you only use a luck break and your break limit is 40 mph or more, then gaps in the rack don't matter. You have a bigger chance to make all balls in the break if all balls are not frozen.
But if your break limit is 25 mph or you want to control the rack, then you need a frozen rack.

Patrick

bolo
06-29-2003, 11:52 PM
I was not very clear, I like the first three tight, the rest I don't care about.

Voodoo Daddy
06-30-2003, 04:06 AM
From what I know the fastest break recorded is around 31 mph. I guess that makes the world just full of weak breakers...<shakin head>

bluewolf
06-30-2003, 04:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr>As the breaker I want the rack tight esecially the first 6 balls, However i do not mind if the last three balls are a little loose i believe that will give the 9B a better chance of getting pocketed. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif As for 8B same thing I seem to break better if the first 6balls are tight, even though i break for the 2nd ball on the left side. <hr /></blockquote>

I just recently started breaking decent in the last two months. I do not know if the 9 ball rack is easier to rack tight or what. All I know is that I do a better 9 ball break(balls often drop). In 8 ball, if it is a tight rack, the balls split well, whether one goes in or not. If those middle balls are not tight, then it is crappy and often a cluster in the middle, to one degree or another.

This is kind of embarrassing and adds innings to the game of one not as experienced trying to break balls out of clusters without giving my opponent an advantage.

I have seen very good breakers bust open even a loose rack,I am just not there yet.

bluewolf
06-30-2003, 04:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr> From what I know the fastest break recorded is around 31 mph. I guess that makes the world just full of weak breakers...&lt;shakin head&gt; <hr /></blockquote>

The operative word here I think is 'recorded'. I know of one pro at least, not mentioning name, who claims faster speeds. Don't know if that is a 'fish' story or not.

I am sincerely curious. How is this speed determined? Is it the speed the arm is moving just prior to the break, something to do with how fast the balls bust against each other, or what?

Not that it has anything to do with mine, since mine is so much weaker than that, just curious that is all.

Voodoo Daddy
06-30-2003, 05:24 AM
By radar gun. thye have one at the BCA trade show and the APA event in VEGAS. A friend of mine broke around 30mph everyday at the APA event and won Sardo Tight Racks everyday for his speed on the break &lt;4 of them in that many days&gt;
.

Kato
06-30-2003, 07:47 AM
Scott clocked me in between 17-19 mph consistently without breaking form. If I break form and stand up I might hit 22-23 mph. I guess I'm WAY below weak!!!!!! Need to buff up.

Kato~~~Voodoo's right about his buddy. I played him some in Miami and the kid can flat cut it loose.

Ralph S.
06-30-2003, 07:53 AM
What really bothered me, was this guy felt that the rack in 9ball is overall more important than 8ball. I just dont see how this can be true knowing that a good, tight rack produces the best results and is crucial in either game.

9 Ball Girl
06-30-2003, 08:35 AM
I prefer a tight rack for every rack and that would include 9 ball, 8 ball, 14.1, etc. I find that when the balls are loosely racked, I can't get a nice spread when I break 'em. Almost as if I'm hitting a brick wall.

Steve Lipsky
06-30-2003, 08:41 AM
Hi Ralph. A bad rack in 9-ball (unless it is horrendous) won't produce many clusters; it's just that making a ball will be difficult. This translates to giving your opponent (the racker), a very good chance to run out on you from your break. Not good at all.

In 8-ball, a bad rack will produce a lot of clusters. Running out will be difficult for your opponent if you don't make a ball. He might still have the advantage (choosing a group), but that's it. You'll still probably get several innings at the table if it's really all clustered.

It seems that the end results in both games are bad, but the bad 9-ball rack allows you to lose more often without getting back to the table.

- Steve

Eric.
06-30-2003, 08:47 AM
I tend to agree with ya, Voodoo. I won a Sardine Rack for fastest break, in Valley Forge a couple of years ago and I was nowhere near 40 MPH on the radar gun.

Eric &gt;30.2 MPH was the winning number

06-30-2003, 10:39 AM
Wow, Eric, that's really fast! Just goes to show that physical size doesn't equal harder/faster break.

Scott's radar gun clocked my break at between 15 and 17 mph, where I had pretty good spread and good cueball control. He liked the results and didn't want to change anything about my break, but just for kicks he asked me to really let it out and not worry about controlling the cueball. Try as I might (2 or 3 times), I still couldn't make myself hit harder than 17-18 mph. And I'm a big guy (6'2", about 285#). It seems I have some sort of internal "throttle", I guess caused by jumping too many balls off the table with wild breaks in my younger days, and with my new hardwood floors and new Centennial balls, I'm probably reeling it in even more. I was really surprised at not being able to bring myself to hit harder, but as Scott pointed out there was no use trying harder anyway -- I get a good spread, balls go down, and I control the CB, so why change it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Eric.
06-30-2003, 12:14 PM
I'm not a huge guy, but I aint little either. I'm 5'11" and around 190 lbs, but I'm in pretty good shape(I'm trying to say it modestly /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif). You are right, though; size doesn't matter(as far as breaking, anyway). IMO, it is a combination of good technique and timing. It's the same technique as a Martial Arts punch- speed and correct timing. I think I made a past rambling about it here.

Eric &gt;see ya at the Open?

ras314
06-30-2003, 12:40 PM
Maybe the resident alien means KPH?

Scott didn't clock my break, probably thought it too weak to bother with.

He did spend much time on follow thru, now I'm drawing the cb clear back to the rail on breaks if I'm not careful.

Great fun!

MarkUrsel
06-30-2003, 12:54 PM
I won the fast break competition at a BCA regional a few years ago (back home in Calgary) with 30.1 mph. At that one, they were using a laser trap as well as a radar gun. The next year, I was cocky, ready to rock, let it all hang out, and couldn't get it over 25mph. Go figure.

At either of those speeds, it's a real challenge just to keep the cueball on the table. It wants to jump so bad that you need a police psychologist and a negotiator just to talk it back over to this side of the rail.

I haven't been clocked since, but I don't think the speed has gone up any. At that kind of speed, there is no control whatsoever, so I've stopped trying to hit it as hard as I can. Now it's more about controlling the cue ball.

Scott Lee
06-30-2003, 03:30 PM
Predator314...LOL Actually, the day of our lesson, when I got to Click's, I realized that the radar gun had been left on, and the batteries were dead! DAMN! LOL I meant to go get some during a lunch break (but we didn't take one...LOL), and then I just spaced it out, and we finished, and went for dinner! I apologize for that...we'll do that next time...when I'll meet you in Phoenix!

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
06-30-2003, 03:51 PM
Ralph...My stance on the rack, is that it is equally important in both 8-ball and 9-ball. As the breaker, I want the tightest rack possible...because I feel like I have an advantage in knowing the correct fundamentals needed for a perfect break. As the racker, I want to rack the balls as tight as possible...because I feel like my opponent likely does NOT have the same breaking skills as me, and therefore may be less likely to pocket a ball, and might even knock the cb off the table, with a "wild" break.

Scott Lee

Rod
06-30-2003, 04:51 PM
Ralph,

I guess it's one of those 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. Who's breaking and where the balls roll. I'd say 8 ball needs the best rack. All though there is more balls and probably more clusters it may or may not make a difference. My answer, it depends. Personally, in this case, I wouldn't have said anything, I let them believe what they want.

Rod

Ralph S.
06-30-2003, 05:06 PM
Thanks for all the responses. I wanted to know if anyone thought that they were equally important, as I do.

Patrick
07-01-2003, 12:49 AM
I saw Cory Deuel break in a 9-ball sample video, it said 25.7 mph on the screen and it looks very weak. 30 mph is an average break speed for me. Bustamante can do 36 mph? Someone here said he can do 40 mph.

Patrick

Patrick
07-01-2003, 12:59 AM
You can't break faster than your limit no matter how hard you try. If you try harder of course you will break slower because you get get more tense in you triceps and back muscles.

There is no problem with controlling the cueball, I can control it up to about 110 mph, but after that the cueball will fly off the table forwards. With a 60-70 mph break the cueball will fly backwards and jump off the table without hitting the table on the way back, with a 80-90 mph break it will first fly up in the air and bounche once on the table before going off the table. At about 110 mph it will fly straight up and bounche many times and stop in the centre of the table.

This is true with a normal rail bridge where the cue has to be slightly elevated. With a perfectly level cue the cueball will of course not fly off the table, but it will bounche straight backwards from the impact of the 1-ball. At 200 mph it will probably travel 2.5 table lengths from the impact, it depends on the table speed and the balls.

Patrick

highsea
07-01-2003, 01:17 AM
IMO a good rack is equally important in both games. If I don't have a tight rack in 8ball, it is unlikely that I will get a good even spread and an open table, and my chances of running out from the break are greatly reduced.

-CM

Patrick
07-01-2003, 01:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr> From what I know the fastest break recorded is around 31 mph. I guess that makes the world just full of weak breakers...&lt;shakin head&gt; <hr /></blockquote>I didn't know, in my pool room they break around 28 mph, and they are not even pros, I always thought that was the average speed and pros break much faster than that. And one guy in my pool room breaks over 35 mph, he also has much better cueball control than Efren Reyes, Efren is not even close.

Patrick

Patrick
07-01-2003, 01:38 AM
I have been breaking over 30 mph since I was 17, I haven't even started progressing in weightlifting, and I haven't started practicing the technique yet. Everyone can improve their break speed by about double after they reach their potential in strength and technique. I know my potential with my human vessel is at least 50 mph, that I am 100% sure of.
After that you can also improve further by using spiritual powers, and then using special clothes and shoes with a good grip.
Of course you can use cheating techniques too with wind blowing from behind, or using roller blades for more speed, or a motorcycle, or an airplane...

Patrick

bluewolf
07-01-2003, 04:32 AM
I do think tight racks are important regardless.Nothing worse than playing off a crappy break, regardless of who broke. It slows the game down, often adds innings.

I do not break that hard. I only break as hard as I can and still maintain cb control. I am guessing I use 10-20% of my power/speed at this point. I guess that will get better in time. It is truly wonderful to see a great break that also maintains cb control.

bw

Eric.
07-01-2003, 07:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Patrick:</font><hr> Of course you can use cheating techniques too with wind blowing from behind, or using roller blades for more speed, or a motorcycle, or an airplane...

Patrick <hr /></blockquote>

Patrick,

I've thought about your suggestion of using a motorcycle and was wondering to myself about it.

I said to myself "Self, if I could get on my Softail, with my Predator BK in 'Sir Lancelot position', with the poolhall doors open at both ends, with the scooter screaming in 5th gear- I might be able to break at 120 to 130 M.P.H., provided that I was able to hit the CB or didn't fall off the damn bike and break my friggin skull!"

What do you think, Mork?


Eric &gt;na noo, na noo

pooljunkie73
07-01-2003, 09:55 AM
LMFAO!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ras314
07-01-2003, 10:15 AM
Scott ...Actually I think I vagely remember you mentioning problems with the radar gun. A very long enjoyable day for me. Have just about worn out the tapes, I need to copy them. About ready to go back there and shoot the blankety blank juke box!

BTW, predator314 is someone else.

Looking forward to Pheonix.

Kato
07-01-2003, 10:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>I've thought about your suggestion of using a motorcycle and was wondering to myself about it.

I said to myself "Self, if I could get on my Softail, with my Predator BK in 'Sir Lancelot position', with the poolhall doors open at both ends, with the scooter screaming in 5th gear- I might be able to break at 120 to 130 M.P.H., provided that I was able to hit the CB or didn't fall off the damn bike and break my friggin skull!"

What do you think, Mork?


Eric &gt;na noo, na noo <hr /></blockquote>

Shalzzzzzbut. Seems like a great idea Eric. A little overkill perhaps but a great idea non-the-less.

Here's my idea. I'm going to attatch an Acme Rocket to the back of my cue stick. I'll borrow it from Wilie Coyote and take some quick training. Then I'll just light some TNT and pulverise the rack using Scott Lee's lag (soft) stroke. I'm guessing I can get the break up to approximately 650 m.p.h.

If that doesn't work I'll just hit my 19 m.p.h. controlled break.

Kato

Barbara
07-01-2003, 05:32 PM
Ralph,

It really only matters where the breaks are between the balls in any given rack.

You can have a gap between one the the second row of balls in a 9-ball rack and still make a ball on the break, if you know how to read the rack and trace a ball-to-ball connection throughout the the rack.

OTOH, in 8-ball, it's more important to have more balls contacting each other in more key areas.

I've mentioned this before and will continue to do so - Joe Tucker has written an exquisite book on reading racks, called "Racking Secrets". It is now out of print and perhaps Joe will consider have a print run of it again. This man lived in a pool hall and did exactly what Fran talked about doing in another thread before all pool info was publishable - loosening a ball or two in a rack and breaking and watching the results! He did this for 8-ball, 9-ball and 10-ball racks.

This information is incredible and saved me lots of games in knowing what to look for and what to avoid.

I've learned some great things from some great people - RandyG's Pool School, Fran Crimi, Dawn Hopkins, Jimmy Caras, and Joe Tucker. And I promised to just about all of them that I would pass on the knowledge that they taught me if I saw that I could help anyone. This is a new principle because even in the room I shoot at, free knowledge is rarely given.

Barbara~~~used to cringe when Sarah Ellerby requested re-rack after re-rack....

Fran Crimi
07-01-2003, 06:19 PM
Barbara, I couldn't agree with you more, but Ralph's question was specifically about tight racks. I think that most people assumed he meant tight racks in terms of making a ball on the break but I think he is referring to the resulting layout of the table, like clusters and that kind of thing.

Clusters or no clusters, if you don't make a ball on the break you sit down and watch. That's the bottom line. So from the breaker's perspective, a tight rack in 8-ball isn't any more important than a tight rack in 9 ball. It's about who gets control of the table first and who gets to make the first move.

Fran

Fran Crimi
07-01-2003, 06:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Ralph...My stance on the rack, is that it is equally important in both 8-ball and 9-ball. As the breaker, I want the tightest rack possible...because I feel like I have an advantage in knowing the correct fundamentals needed for a perfect break. As the racker, I want to rack the balls as tight as possible...because I feel like my opponent likely does NOT have the same breaking skills as me, and therefore may be less likely to pocket a ball, and might even knock the cb off the table, with a "wild" break.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>


Scott, I have to ask you this...

Are you saying that as the breaker, if your opponent leaves the corner ball loose, you would ask for a rerack because the rack isn't perfectly tight?? Say it ain't so, Scott!

Fran /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Barbara
07-01-2003, 07:21 PM
Fran, I see what you're talking about.

I've seen tight 9-ball racks smashed and come back to clusters in the middle of the table.

I've seen somewhat softer breaks in 8-ball racks spread nicely. (and CC will always give me and Rip a hernia when we remember his breaks sweating his matches in Las Vegas)

Knowing what to look for in a rack configuration at set up should clue you as to how you're going to hit the rack - hard or softer.

I have a pretty slow break - 15 mph as timed by RandyG, but if I make a ball and leave the CB within two diamonds of the center of the table, I've got a leg up in running the table.

Barbara~~~and learning to use that back leg action for more strength...

Harold Acosta
07-01-2003, 07:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph S.:</font><hr>
The SS was helping the girl out, giving her some lessons and pointers. She is very good for a beginning player and the subject of racking came up. I was listening while playing and the SS says that a proper rack {all the balls touching and headball on proper spot} is more important in 9ball than 8ball.

I abruptly stopped shooting and mention that I disagreed with his view point. He says it is due to the larger number of balls in 8 ball. I still disagree.

<hr /></blockquote>

Ralph S.:

I would have not butted-in the conversation between the two. At least the guy was trying to teach the girl some pointers, and in a sense, he was most probably saying that it was very important to have a tight 9 ball rack, unlike many players that leave the 8 ball rack loose on purpose.

When I'm playing 9 ball with friends, I demand a tight rack unlike when playing 8 ball since I know that many would want clusters on the table. However, I would always rack tight on any of the two games, sometimes throwing off my friends when they broke the balls, obviously expecting a loose rack. When they got the hang of the break, I would change it to a loose one; throwing them off again.

Anyway, back on the subject. The girl would have figured out the best way to rack when playing 8 ball. However, in my opinion, she was being taught right about the 9 ball rack.

Just my opinion....

pooldaddy9
07-01-2003, 08:46 PM
That's pretty fast. Mine averages 15-17 mph

Jimmy Mendoza
07-02-2003, 02:22 PM
Strange, I usually don't have trouble controlling the cue ball until around 145mph. I'm suprised you're seeing control problems at only 110mph.


P.S. I'm using a mortar to fire the cue ball at the rack.

Patrick
07-03-2003, 06:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy Mendoza:</font><hr> Strange, I usually don't have trouble controlling the cue ball until around 145mph. I'm suprised you're seeing control problems at only 110mph.


P.S. I'm using a mortar to fire the cue ball at the rack. <hr /></blockquote>The rail is in the way to be able to have a level cue.

Patrick