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cycopath
06-30-2003, 03:20 PM
I wonder how many people here sandbag to keep their skill level lower? Come on you can be honest here. I won't tell. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I sometimes think, "I need to hit the balls around the table a little more in a couple of my games". But I never do it. I always try to play to the best of my ability. So of course I think it's kinda crappy for a guy to lay down on a couple of games. Especially when they are blatantly obvious about it. I witnessed a guy(SL6) one night during league play missing shots here and there until our player (SL5) was on the hill, then he asked his scorekeeper what the score was. He then picked his gameplay up. He won a couple more games but eventually lost because he got too far behind.
I mean it says right there in the Rulebook that it's illegal to sandbag. But I realize most every SL5 or above does it to some degree.

Tom_In_Cincy
06-30-2003, 04:41 PM
Cycopath

It's very difficult to sandbag when you're a 7 /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod
06-30-2003, 04:55 PM
Sand bag?, oh no there much to heavy for me. I did that in the flood of 61 and it ain't fun! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod

Ralph S.
06-30-2003, 05:03 PM
LOL Rod, I am with you on that one. I lifted them heavy things in the floods of 82 and 85. Ft.Wayne has three rivers, two of them converge downtown to make the third. My highschool sat right on the banks of one of them. You should see the pictures from my yearbook. I was out of school for three weeks! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

GreenLion
06-30-2003, 09:38 PM
No i dont cuase if someone beats me i want them to recieve the credit of playing better then i did instead of well you won cuase he sandbagged.I want my opponent to be happy about his victory just as I would if i won.

bluewolf
07-01-2003, 04:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr> I wonder how many people here sandbag to keep their skill level lower? Come on you can be honest here. I won't tell. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Have not seen this topic for awhile. Of course it is wrong. The APA has a very good formula to try to prevent it, but someone will always get around the system.I think this is more of a problem in some areas than others.

In our league, there are quite a few sandbaggers(15-20%) and many like you who play their best also. On the teams that do sandbag, it is not just sl5 and up. It is sl2 all the way up through sl6. There is also another way of sandbagging other than increasing innings,not marking defense shots, dumping matches.This is something the captains do in the way they do their 'put ups'.

But APA also has handicap review . I think that the handicap review, which in our area happens once a session, cuts out quite a bit of this, ie- the sandbagger does not get away with this for long.

At first I was very confused. In my first session I was constantly being beat, put up against people I could not beat, ie above my sl and also sandbagging, thus reducing my spot against a player very much better than me.Being new, this really did not help my self esteem.

That captain then put me up against an sl 2 levels above me in the playoffs. I was sick so that by brain could not kick into the negative things I had been saying about myself. I really think that is the only reason I won. My brain, out of gear, I went into a zone like state and won. If I was not sick and my brain was thinking, I would have lost. The point is is that if a captain dumps a player so much they believe they are crappy, this can not only hurt the player but can also backfire on the captain's sandbagging attempts.

But my next captain did not do this so it was then that I started winning more often and my self esteem relating to pool started getting better also.

I finally came to this point. The truth is that a person can sandbag for awhile, but eventually they end up at the sl they are supposed to be at.

I gave up on worrying about what other people or teams are doing. I cannot do anything about anybody except me and improving my game. That is about it. I go to league now to have fun with my friends and to get to play, which helps my game too. Sometimes I win. Sometimes I lose. No biggie. I focus on getting better instead of what other people are doing. Only way to be in a league and have fun IMO.

Laura

pooldaddy9
07-01-2003, 04:26 AM
I did one time (feeling sorry)playing a weaker player, just shooting for fun not league. It brought my game down and I had trouble getting back to how I know I play. I try to play my best all the time.

pooltchr
07-01-2003, 06:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooldaddy9:</font><hr> I did one time (feeling sorry)playing a weaker player, just shooting for fun not league. It brought my game down and I had trouble getting back to how I know I play. I try to play my best all the time. <hr /></blockquote>

Great point! If you aren't giving your best on every shot, every time you play, you end up getting sloppy. Then when you need your best game, you have developed some bad habits that can come back to bite you. As for sandbaggers in the APA, if everyone kept score the way you are supposed to, ie marking defense when the shooter is not attempting to pocket a ball, sandbagging wouldn't/couldn't exist. Our league operator got fed up with finding most scoresheets not showing any defensive shots (How many times have you ever seen 5 matches without ANY defense???) that he put the word out that if players didn't start keeping score properly, he would raise the entire team's handicap. A little bit harsh, but all of a sudden, sandbagging dropped off, and scorekeeping started to reflect what was actually happening on the table.

bluewolf
07-01-2003, 07:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Our league operator got fed up with finding most scoresheets not showing any defensive shots (How many times have you ever seen 5 matches without ANY defense???) that he put the word out that if players didn't start keeping score properly, he would raise the entire team's handicap. A little bit harsh, but all of a sudden, sandbagging dropped off, and scorekeeping started to reflect what was actually happening on the table. <hr /></blockquote>

Good for your LO. I try to keep score correctly and mark defense shots. Sad to say that often I finish a match and knowing I made some obvious safes, like 1 or 2 per game when I did not have a good shot and the sheet does not have any marked. Hope others follow the example of your LO.

For ex- I had the 8 but it was not pocketable. I could make a good hit on it though and put it in good position for a sink on the next turn. This was real obviously an 'intentional miss' and should have been marked so.

Laura

9 Ball Girl
07-01-2003, 07:31 AM
I've never sandbagged but I was accused of doing so. I had just started playing in the league in the middle of the season for my friend's team and I was brought in as a 3 because that's what I was when I had last played in the APA a couple of years back. I had told the LO that I was a 5 in the BCA but he said my rating in the BCA doesn't count. So they put me up against a 4 and I beat him 3-0 or whatever it was. That brought on complaints, in about 2 months I went from a 3 to a 4 to a 5, averaging 2-4 innings in my matches and now I'm told that if I come back to the APA, they'd have to bring me in as a 6. Doh!

However, those on my team that kept scores would up the innings so that my SL wouldn't go up because it would screw up the balance of the team which eventually it did anyway.

bluewolf
07-01-2003, 07:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> As for sandbaggers in the APA, if everyone kept score the way you are supposed to, ie marking defense when the shooter is not attempting to pocket a ball, sandbagging wouldn't/couldn't exist. <hr /></blockquote>

I call this 'sandbagging the player' when score is not kept correctly or when captains do 'handicap management'.

If I have 8 innings, for instance, and 2 defense shots, that should count as 6. Not counting safes is a factor in keeping players at a lower sl than their true ability.This is not fair because that gives them a spot they should not have. Mark safes correctly, dont use handicap management and the player advances to the sl that matches their ability. I think that these things create as much inaccuracy as when the player, themselves are sandbagging.

The player does not decide the putups. The player does not mark their sheets. In these cases, the player is being 'sandbagged' and it is not their fault.

Personally, this is slugging, slows down the process, those who want to advance and are trying hard stay at the same level for so long that they lose their drive. I know some sl4s, for instance that have been there and tried to do their best to become 5. Eventually they gave up and their level of play declined.Happened to a good sl4 friend of mine, played well won a lot, then his play went down hill due to not marking his safes and handicap management.

If he just looked at his game and what he was doing on the table better, this probably would not have happened, but he was working so hard to be 5 and gave up trying.

Thank G for handicap review. With its flaws of course, but a great tool for combatting this, nontheless.

Laura

Rich R.
07-01-2003, 07:52 AM
I would never sandbag. It is just not in my nature and I consider it cheating.
However, I play so hot and cold, from game to game and match to match, I could see how some could think I was sandbagging, if they didn't know me.

cycopath
07-01-2003, 08:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> I would never sandbag. It is just not in my nature and I consider it cheating.
However, I play so hot and cold, from game to game and match to match, I could see how some could think I was sandbagging, if they didn't know me. <hr /></blockquote>I'm the same way. When I'm on I can run a rack, and when I'm off I can't even make a single shot. But I'm hoping this will be corrected by Scott Lee having shown me errors in my stroke.

OnePocketChamp
07-01-2003, 09:19 AM
I have never sandbagged, I go into every game I play to beat the brains out of my opponent. If I could run out every time at the table I would. I started playing APA about 5 sessions ago and came in as a s/l 4, having never played in this league before wasn't sure what my true s/l should be. After the first week I was moved to a s/l 6 where I stayed until last session when I completely buried a s/l 5, 5-0 in 8 innings, now I have joined the ranks of the 7's. Boy, life sucks as a 7, have become the official score keeper, warm-up dummy for our 5 &amp; 6's and of course the bench coach but hey I still have my pride and still don't sandbag.

Now, on a purely personal level, 9ballgirl as a s/l 6 WILL YOU MARRY ME?????? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

9 Ball Girl
07-01-2003, 10:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote OnePocketChamp:</font><hr> Now, on a purely personal level, 9ballgirl as a s/l 6 WILL YOU MARRY ME?????? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif <hr /></blockquote>Only if you come down to Virginia in September...http://www.smilies.org/basesmilies3/wink1.gif

ras314
07-01-2003, 10:46 AM
You can count on Scott pointing out any errors and inconstancy in your stroke! Think thats one reason he is such a good instructor.

I agree with the idea of sand bagging dragging down your game. I don't play in leagues but often do not play my best so as not to discourage what few lessor players I meet. Dosen't take long for my whole game to go down hill.

=k=
07-01-2003, 12:02 PM
hmmm good question.. 3 months ago i could have given a positive no!! today i don't really know.. i went through a spell where i had a looseing streak.. like six matches and the total balls i had left on the table was only 7 balls.. someone told me, i was trying to win to soon run out when i couldn't and now i look at the table harder and if a run out isn't possible i just put a ball to cover a pocket instead of making it.. now i am up to 75% match wins. is this sandbagging or safty play???

cycopath
07-01-2003, 12:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote =k=:</font><hr>is this sandbagging or safty play??? <hr /></blockquote>
Definitely safety play, not sandbagging. Well unless you put on a performance that could earn you an Oscar. Like you were trying to pocket a ball and it just so happens you miss by a mile, so you jump up and down and scream obscenities to the cueball and drop to your knees asking God,"Why... why... why?" with tears running down your cheeks. Then I'd have to consider it sandbagging.

jjinfla
07-01-2003, 03:58 PM
After a person has 50 games in the computer it all evens out. I hear all the talk about sandbagging but in reality the 4's, 5's &amp; 6's miss their shots for the simple reason that they are just bad pool players. Sure some miss intentionally but for the most part they just are not good enough to hide their misses. But then I do know a guy who is going to Vegas for the third time and when I asked him how he maintained a SL5 he looked me in the eyes and told me he sandbags. But in all reality, he is not that good, and probably really is a SL5. Some days he is just luckier than others. LOL. I think I like the format and handicap system in 9-ball better than the one they use in 8-ball. At least in 9-ball even the loser of the match is earning points for the team. In 8-ball once your team has three wins you might as well go in and bang the balls around, run up the innings, and lose, because the win will not help your team anymore. Jake

07-01-2003, 07:11 PM
I don't sandbag but of course I dont really have much skill. It comes and goes sometimes I have the eye and sometimes well I am Pepe Le Pew ~~~~ &lt;--- stink lines

Of course I am a recreational player If I go to a bar I could be drunk before I get up for my third turn at the table.. or someone is trying to win free beers off of me.. damn hustlers!! hahah

07-02-2003, 02:34 AM
To Tom, yes you are right, when I became a 7 in the apa, it was a relief, all those old games were then over. You just go out and hammer people with no mercy. I stayed a 6 for a very long time refusing to ever run a rack. You build innings and lose a lot of matches on purpose. It's a big game, many do it, they get exposed and moved up eventually.

Any time you try to handicap any sport and make it even, people will find a way to beat the system. Sandbagging your golf handicap in the clubs is very prevelant. I have always been a scratch player. I face a true 7 hdcp who is sandbagged to a 12, he has 5 strokes on the wire, there is no way I can win unless I shoot 67 which I only do a couple of times a year. I wish somebody in pool would come up with a system that would reward run out play and not reward losing on purpose. If my true 6 in pool faces another true 6 but is sandbagged at a 4, my guy is going to lose most of the time in that situation. Sometimes it can take a year to smoke that guy out and he can do a lot of damage during that year. Fast Larry

Fred Agnir
07-02-2003, 08:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr> I wonder how many people here sandbag to keep their skill level lower? Come on you can be honest here. I won't tell. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
<hr /></blockquote>Although sandbagging is a reality, the perceived high percentage of sandbagging in my opinion is a red herring. Anytime someone loses, the sandbagging accusations start. Anytime someone wins, the sandbagging accusations start. So, no matter what you do, someone is going to accuse you of sandbagging. It's a lose/lose propostion. 99% of amateur pool players simply have no clue what it takes to play this game, so they bring up sandbagging to make themselves feel good and legitimize wins and losses.

One of the problems with handicapping the problem with "strength of region." If you live in a relatively weak region, your handicap in the APA will tend to go up because nobody is hitting back (because the innings end up going down). If your weak region is all you know, then you'll think that other stronger regions must be sandbagging when you see a player who would be a such-and-such level in your area, but much lower handicap when you meet up with him at a higher level tourney.

I've told of my story where a friend of mine was an APA 8-ball SL-4 in my region (and about 50/50 at that), but when he moved to a weaker region, he's an SL-6. Nobody in his new region hits back when he leaves a wide open out. SL-4's can runout wide open racks in my region. They can't run two balls in his.

Fred

Qtec
07-02-2003, 09:03 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I have always been a scratch player. I face a true 7 hdcp who is sandbagged to a 12, he has 5 strokes on the wire, there is no way I can win unless I shoot 67 which I only do a couple of times a year. <hr /></blockquote>


Fast Larry , welcome back. How can you always have been a scratch player ? Surely at some time , for a number of years , you must have had a handicap .
I dont want to be picky but if you shot a 65 you would both be level . /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Q


IMO , most 'sandbaggers 'are just players who are inconsistent . Good players can also play bad.

Wally_in_Cincy
07-02-2003, 09:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> ....Anytime someone loses, the sandbagging accusations start. Anytime someone wins, the sandbagging accusations start. So, no matter what you do, someone is going to accuse you of sandbagging.....

<font color="blue">I agree. And I have been guilty of doing just that. I have also been on both ends of that situation. </font color>

One of the problems with handicapping the problem with "strength of region." If you live in a relatively weak region, your handicap in the APA will tend to go up because nobody is hitting back (because the innings end up going down).

<font color="blue">You have been doing this much longer than me but allow me to submit this. I find myself with fewer innings when playing higher level players because of the lack of clutter on the table. My winning percentage is certainly less but seems to be offset by the fewer innings when handicaps are calculated. And vice versa when playing lower s/l players. Maybe because I have difficulty clearing the table when the other player has 4 or 5 balls clogging things up. </font color>

<font color="red">Wally~~actually always has difficulty clearing the table </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

bluewolf
07-02-2003, 02:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> IMO , most 'sandbaggers 'are just players who are inconsistent . Good players can also play bad.

<hr /></blockquote>

I do see sandbaggers. In our area, if they are doing it bad, they often get voted up at handicap review. Now things done by the captain to keep the players sl down is another matter, but sometimes they get voted up too.

In my case, I lost a bunch in my first session. Since going up is bases on w/l to a degree, that can make a person look like a sandbagger when they are not. Sometimes the computer takes a session or too to catch up to a player who has improved. It is sort of like if you got a few zeros on tests, it takes awhile and some real good grade to get your average up to a C. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

So I have had some inconsistent nights for sure which adds to the losing side, but not knowing everything about the formula, it seems like advancing in levels can take a bit longer if the person lost a bunch in the beginning. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

In light of Fast Larry's post on another thread, dont forget I am a low sl not an advanced player and God forbid, not a teacher. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Laura

Nightstalker
07-02-2003, 04:58 PM
It is human nature to cheat, sandbag, whatever you want to call it. If it achieves obtaining an advantage against competition people will do it regardless! Live with it!

bluewolf
07-02-2003, 07:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nightstalker:</font><hr> It is human nature to cheat, sandbag, whatever you want to call it. If it achieves obtaining an advantage against competition people will do it regardless! Live with it! <hr /></blockquote>

I was discussing. Somethings do not come across too well on the internet. Not everybody sandbags. I do not think that is in everyone's nature to be dishonest. But when we see a really blatant one, we laugh because it is kind of funny. Like the guy who used to be a 5 and has now gotten to be 3. He smoked our 4. Then went over to an adjacent league to play and dumped. That was so ridiculous it was funny. You just have to laugh to at some things, but then you do not see my facial expressions on those nights when things crack me up. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

That is why I hope to meet some ccbers at the open. When you meet people, you get to see a little of what they are really like, what bugs them a lot, a little, or not. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bw

pooljunkie73
07-02-2003, 08:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nightstalker:</font><hr> It is human nature to cheat, sandbag, whatever you want to call it. If it achieves obtaining an advantage against competition people will do it regardless! Live with it! <hr /></blockquote>

I was discussing. Somethings do not come across too well on the internet. Not everybody sandbags. I do not think that is in everyone's nature to be dishonest. bw <hr /></blockquote>

I agree with you there BlueWolf,i have have never in my 10 years of playing pool dumped a game,or a match.Why cheat yourself? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
IMO the people that sandbag have no real confidence in their game.If i can't beat them at my real level why stoop to to theirs.

Vapros
07-02-2003, 10:37 PM
Sandbagging would be bad enough if you did it in pursuit of $30,000. For the few bucks being offered in a league, how can you justify going in the tank? Doesn't it bother you?
(I know it happens, but I don't understand it.)

Unless you're a pro player making a really good living at this game, you'd better be playing for fun and for the competition. Where's the fun in dumping? And what about having a reputation for dishonesty?

Don't tell me it's the thing to do because others in the league are doing it. Why would you want to be like they are? I'm embarrassed for dumpers. Sorry 'bout that.

07-03-2003, 01:47 AM
Dear Mr. Qtec, send me an email, I'll return you copies of my scratch handicap cards in golf that shows rounds in the 60's, no problem. That was my point, if the golf sandbagger comes at me with 5 on the wire, I have to shoot 67 to tie, if it was fair &amp; honest, I could shoot 72 and tie. The system is to make them equal to me, not prevent me from every winning again.

You see golf clubs having their member guest events and the winning team shoots a 59, if it was totally fair they would shoot 72. I belonged to several clubs where they found in the monthly events played for prize money or merchandice the average club players were posting scores 5 strokes under their normal handicaps.
They ignored their usga handicaps and made them play by their monthly scores they had been posting, that became their new tourney handicaps, 5 strokes lower, to take away their padding.

Over the years my handicap has ranged from plus 1 to 2 over. A few times I got very busy working and it went up to 7, but it mostly stayed around a 2. Not trying to brag about that, just trying to make a point, golf has their problems on this too, and the best players get the shaft. A 20 handicapper can easily have a hot day and go 7 under his normal handicap. The scratch players rarely go 7 under and shoot 65's. We have no margin to play with, the higher handicaps can go 10 under their normal game, be totally honest with no sandbagging and wipe us out.

The more you get me thinking about this, Golf may have the greater problem. The scratch player in golf has no chance, in pool he does in the handicaps. Fast Larry

jjinfla
07-03-2003, 06:06 AM
Ideally a handicap should give the weaker player a "chance" to beat the better player, to enable him to compete against the better player, it should not guarantee him to win every time. Jake

bluewolf
07-03-2003, 07:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Ideally a handicap should give the weaker player a "chance" to beat the better player, to enable him to compete against the better player, it should not guarantee him to win every time. Jake <hr /></blockquote>

I think that this is hard in pool. Most times I see an sl3, beat an sl7 is when the sl7 scratches twice on the 8 or something like that. My sl7 husband and I have played and tried different things that would be fair to both. It was so hard. He has played offhanded, one handed, race 7-2 and even 3 balls in hand per game. Go one way, he will beat me everytime, go the other way, I am beating him with unfair advantage to me. This was 8 ball apa. When we played 9 ball, apa style, seemed fairer for both because I was able to barely beat him even with him having an off day and me having a good day.I do not particularly like that style of 9 ball but it did seem a bit fairer than the handicap system apa does for 8 ball. jmo.

The way I see it is at least in apa 8 ball handicap, the 2 or 3 will not beat a 6 or 7 unless the stronger player screws up royally. So, in that case, the win of the 2 or 3 is not usually based on them playing very well, but the 6 or 7 making real dumb mistakes. I do not know if there is a fair way to do this in 8 ball apa style. Other leagues that count balls potted may be onto something I am thinking, sort of like apa 9 ball.I think that when you get into the middle range like a 4 or 5 playing a seven, it seems like the 4 or 5 has a chance.

Considering our experiments and the difficulty coming up with something fair, cant really criticize the leagues too much.We sure were not able to come up with something better.

bw

Nightstalker
07-03-2003, 08:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nightstalker:</font><hr> It is human nature to cheat, sandbag, whatever you want to call it. If it achieves obtaining an advantage against competition people will do it regardless! Live with it! <hr /></blockquote>

I was discussing. Somethings do not come across too well on the internet. Not everybody sandbags. I do not think that is in everyone's nature to be dishonest. But when we see a really blatant one, we laugh because it is kind of funny. Like the guy who used to be a 5 and has now gotten to be 3. He smoked our 4. Then went over to an adjacent league to play and dumped. That was so ridiculous it was funny. You just have to laugh to at some things, but then you do not see my facial expressions on those nights when things crack me up. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

That is why I hope to meet some ccbers at the open. When you meet people, you get to see a little of what they are really like, what bugs them a lot, a little, or not. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bw <hr /></blockquote>

I never said everyone does it. I simply stated it is human nature to be dishonest! Some people actually do it, some people do not, but it is in everones' nature so they are potentially capable that is all. Please do not twist what I say.

bluewolf
07-03-2003, 09:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nightstalker:</font><hr>I never said everyone does it. I simply stated it is human nature to be dishonest! Some people actually do it, some people do not, but it is in everones' nature so they are potentially capable that is all. Please do not twist what I say. <hr /></blockquote>

Never intentional twisting. I would like to call it a misunderstanding or not understanding totally what you were trying to say. That is what makes internet communication so difficult, and easy to have flame fights even, that would never happen if we were having this same discussion in person. Sorry if I misunderstand what you were trying to say.

bw

jjinfla
07-03-2003, 12:30 PM
Hey BW, forget about the SL's because on any given day a person in the APA can play 2 or 3 SL's above or below their rated SL. Especially when you consider they have been waiting and drinking. If you beat someone today it doesn't mean that you are better then him. But if you consistently beat him then it is an indication you are better than him. That's why the pros like the longer races. Jake

07-03-2003, 03:34 PM
If you are in the apa and want to win, you cheat, if you play honest, you lose. You must begin a session with each player sandbagged 2 levels below his ability, so when you hit your city championship most have been found out and moved up one notch, but you still have the entire team sandbagged one level. That simply puts you on the same playing field with your competition, who are also cheating like dogs as well. Several years ago I was standing next to the president of the apa ,Terry,and he was asked by the league head of the bca, Lewis, how are you dealing with sandbagging, and he said we dont have a problem, everyone who shows up in vegas is cheating, everyone is sandbagged 2 levels, so they are all cheating the same, and all are now on the same level playing field. They know the cheating is taking place, they just dont want anybody robbing the other guy. Its all one big phony bloney game. Everyone knows how it works, nobody want to come clean about it.

dg-in-centralpa
07-03-2003, 07:57 PM
Years ago I was in a Valley 9 ball league. My team captain wanted me to sandbag and keep my average down especially since I was clean up man and the match had already been won. We always gave up too many points to the weaker teams and he felt by doing this, we would have a better chance of winning. Much to his dismay, I never threw a game. To me, it's unsportsmanlike. If I can crush my opponent, I will.

DG - who has too many parties this weekend

bluewolf
07-04-2003, 06:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Hey BW, forget about the SL's because on any given day a person in the APA can play 2 or 3 SL's above or below their rated SL. Especially when you consider they have been waiting and drinking. If you beat someone today it doesn't mean that you are better then him. But if you consistently beat him then it is an indication you are better than him. Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Great jake. In apa, there is no better and funner opponent for me who always plays their best, sometimes I beat, sometimes the other person does. We are equal,the win going to the one who played better that night.We like each other, respect each other and like playing each other because it will always be a good match. Then from those better than me, I learn from them and also can see my improvement, see ways that I am getting better, especially if I have played the same person a number of times, which is at least in part, I think what you are alluding too.

Sometimes, in Apa, which is the only thing I know, even the win loss % does not tell it all. Not only because a person may play better one week to the next but also it depends on who you are matched up against as well as how strong the players are [re: fred] in that particular league.

I have even seen 2s in our league do 4-5 balls when the balls are spread easy(ie easy pots with no shape skills required}, but it is luck the way the balls are so easy and of course they do not do this often, because that easy of a spread is the exception.So it was luck.

Laura