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Fran Crimi
07-01-2003, 08:08 AM
Don't get me wrong...I think pool forums on the net are great for the game, but...

I remember life before the CCB, particularly the learning process. I'm sure many of us here remember those days when we had unanswered questions about our games and had nowhere to go to get the answers except within ourselves. For me, that's when I did the most learning and advancing in my game. We had no choice but to take it to the table and work it out. Guys like Steve Lipsky and Rod and Voodoo and others, I'm sure, remember those days.

Many questions I see here that players are asking are the same ones many of us have asked ourselves along the line. In many cases, the answers lie in a couple of hours of hard work at the table.

I think that half the questions you're asking wouldn't have to be asked if you took it to the table and worked it out, and I also think that half the answers you're getting to your questions wouldn't be so 'misinformed' if those players also took it to the table to work it out.

Ralph, I'm not picking on you especially /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif but your thread makes for a good example. How many players who posted in that thread actually spent hours and hours and hours just racking and breaking and racking and breaking with different balls loose just to see what happens?

You can talk about this stuff all day, but IMO, nothing beats experience, folks. Get out there and test it out yourselves. JMHO /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Fran

Wally_in_Cincy
07-01-2003, 08:16 AM
A wise man once said:

I hear and I forget
I read and I remember
I do and I understand

Rich R.
07-01-2003, 08:24 AM
Fran, when, and where, I learned to play, there were no instructors to be found. Although there were great players, they rarely gave out any hints on how they did things, because they thought it would cut into their gambling income.
The owner of the room, where I played, was a world class player, but I don't remember him ever giving a lesson, however, he would show us a thing or two, on occasion. I don't think any one could afford a lesson, if there was an instructor.

We all learned by sitting quietly and watching the better players. We picked up little things and then tried them ourselves. It was a long process to learn something, because, a lot of the time, you were not seeing something quite right and, therefore, you couldn't duplicate it.

In this time of video tapes and certified instructors, it maybe quicker to get good information, but you still have to put in the table time.

Eric.
07-01-2003, 08:35 AM
I tend to agree. I think that the difference nowadays is that the info can be had much quicker but the bottom line is that you still have to put the time on the table to make the knowledge work. Theres a big difference between knowing about it and actually executing it. I'm guilty of it too. Some of the things I know, I can't put on the table without alot of table time.

Eric

Tom_In_Cincy
07-01-2003, 08:43 AM
Fran, Great post,

There's no substitute for Table time. All the info you can get is wasted if you can't put it to practice on the table.

BTW, I have spent many hours practicing Breaks for 8 and 9ball, 14.1 and One Pocket. I don't always inspect the rack for each game, but I normally check the way the racker is doing the racking. If they rack good, I don't inspect, if I see them just throwing the balls up and not taking their time and checking, I will check.

And, I am sure that Ralph S. has also.. He's a good player and knows about the game.

Fran Crimi
07-01-2003, 08:44 AM
Well, now you're going WAY back, Rich. Ha! Me too. I can remember that. I do think that a good teacher can be invaluable to the learning process of a player. But my students don't get away with not doing the work. It's their game to figure out. If someone were to ask me about loose balls in breaking, I'd rack the balls, leave a ball loose and tell them to go ahead and break. Then we'd do it again, and again, and again, until I see the light bulb go off in their head. All I did was show them how to find the answer. They did the work.

There's a lot of bad information floating around because people aren't doing the work anymore and just voicing opinions without enough experience to support those opinions.

That's the danger of something like a pool forum.

Fran

Fran Crimi
07-01-2003, 09:03 AM
What I'm saying, Eric, is that half the info is dead wrong. You could very well be ingesting logical but wrong information. Both the asker and answerer (that's probably not a word) would benefit from testing it out themselves before voicing opinions. I'm telling you...some of this stuff I read here is from Zanzibar. It's out there.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Fran

Rich R.
07-01-2003, 09:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Well, now you're going WAY back, Rich. Ha! Me too. I can remember that. <hr /></blockquote>
I won't tell how far back, if you won't tell. That will be our little secret. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I wish instructors and lessons were available back then. I wouldn't be trying to break all my bad habits now.

Steve Lipsky
07-01-2003, 10:00 AM
Hey Fran. For the most part I agree, but an interesting offshoot of this is that there's also a plethora of bad information coming from live people in the physical poolrooms.

Ask 10 guys the same question (live or on the internet), and you'll get many different answers. The questioner must judge the source, and he must guage its relevance to his ability.

The problem with the internet is compounded because you don't know other posters' speeds. Additionally, you can't put the balls on the table in front of the person and ask him to properly explain it. The WEI table is a wonderful tool, but it must be used carefully. I generally shy away from using it in situations where a millimeter either way (on the actual table) will change the shot completely. How are you going to ask/answer that question using the WEI? It can't be that precise, and it's also shown from a view that we never see while actually playing.

It would be interesting to find out how many posters on this board feel they have improved their game directly because of this forum.

- Steve

bolo
07-01-2003, 10:10 AM
In most poolrooms you have people who like to pontificate and brain storm, it is a part of the learning process as much as real practice, it also helps keep up an interest. I have lived in towns where there was no pool interest at all and it was tough to go to a poolroom with no players and try to maintain ones interest in the game. I don't post much but I have been reading this board for a long time and I have more then once been reading and the next thing I know I will be on my way to the poolroom. I don't think the game can be learned in a vacuum.

Fran Crimi
07-01-2003, 10:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Hey Fran. For the most part I agree, but an interesting offshoot of this is that there's also a plethora of bad information coming from live people in the physical poolrooms.

<font color="blue"> Isn't that the truth! There's plenty of bad information to go around in poolrooms too. But I do know that when there wasn't a CCB, players were more inclined to at least make an attempt to try to figure out the answer to a question. Now it seems that in many cases, a player is quick to post a question that pops into their head without even making SOME attempt to find the answer. Some of the biggest breakthhroughs in my game were during that trial and error process where I was looking for an answer to one question and made a discovery about something completely unrealated that helped me tremendously.</font color>

Ask 10 guys the same question (live or on the internet), and you'll get many different answers. The questioner must judge the source, and he must guage its relevance to his ability.

The problem with the internet is compounded because you don't know other poster's speeds. Additionally, you can't put the balls on the table in front of the person and ask him to properly explain it. The WEI table is a wonderful tool, but it must be used carefully. I generally shy away from using it in situations where a millimeter either way (on the actual table) will change the shot completely. How are you going to ask/answer that question using the WEI? It can't be that precise, and it's also shown from a view that we never see while actually playing.

It would be interesting to find out how many posters on this board feel they have improved their game directly because of this forum. <font color="blue"> Steve, I'm not sure how relevant the answer would be since we don't know how that person would have progressed if the CCB wasn't here. </font color>



- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Sid_Vicious
07-01-2003, 10:31 AM
"Ask 10 guys the same question (live or on the internet), and you'll get many different answers. The questioner must judge the source"

Ain't that the truth! I see this board as a general PH, some wrong stuff, lots of right stuff. Yes, I do think my game is better after the CCB, I have several arrows(shots) now in the quiver I'd not have had without the help of the board's people. I also have a home table, so I find out rather quickly if info is BS or valid. Bottomline is that there's good people here, some are super players and some aren't, still it is a very valuable tool for the general player(IMO.) sid

marek
07-01-2003, 11:07 AM
Hi Fran!
I agree with you that there is no substitute for the table time BUT I think that the CCB is a very valuable source of information for anyone who is able to work with different input from different people. I posted some questions here in the past and I recieved many answers, even from you Fran and I examined those answers very carefully AT THE TABLE. One very important think: I asked those questions while being desperate after many many attempts and failures at the table... I just wanted to say that I truly think I am better player now due to the CCB than I would have been without the help of the CCB.
Just my opinion...
Marek

Fran Crimi
07-01-2003, 11:26 AM
That's a GREAT point, Marek. I wasn't referring to people like yourself, who actually do put the time into trying to work out stuff. It's evident in your posts that you are spending time at the table trying to work things out. We all need a little guidance now and then. I'm talking about people asking questions like this:

Q: How do I improve my break?

A: Break 50 times in a row and then ask the question again if you really need help.

Q: How do I improve my stroke?

A: Take 15 thousand more strokes, then ask the question again if you really need help.

Q: Why do I keep missing the same shot?

A: Set it up and shoot it 100 times and see if you can figure out what's going on. Then ask the question again if you need help.

We live in a world of people demanding immediate gratification, Marek. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

Fran Crimi
07-01-2003, 11:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> In most poolrooms you have people who like to pontificate and brain storm, it is a part of the learning process as much as real practice, it also helps keep up an interest. I have lived in towns where there was no pool interest at all and it was tough to go to a poolroom with no players and try to maintain ones interest in the game. I don't post much but I have been reading this board for a long time and I have more then once been reading and the next thing I know I will be on my way to the poolroom. I don't think the game can be learned in a vacuum. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree with everything you said, particularly your last sentence. This game can't be learned in a vacuum. It can't be learned by osmosis, either.

Fran

pooltchr
07-01-2003, 11:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> That's a GREAT point, Marek. I wasn't referring to people like yourself, who actually do put the time into trying to work out stuff. It's evident in your posts that you are spending time at the table trying to work things out. We all need a little guidance now and then. I'm talking about people asking questions like this:

Q: How do I improve my break?

A: Break 500 times in a row and then ask the question again if you really need help.

Q: How do I improve my stroke?

A: Take 15 thousand more strokes, then ask the question again if you really need help.

Q: Why do I keep missing the same shot?

A: Set it up and shoot it 100 times and see if you can figure out what's going on. Then ask the question again if you need help.

We live in a world of people demanding immediate gratification, Marek. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran <hr /></blockquote>
Fran, I agree for the most part, but as an instructor, you also have to agree that to figure out "what's wrong with my stroke?" is accomplished much easier with some help. I can go stroke those 15000 times, but if I can't see myself, it might be difficult to determine exactly what is wrong. I know we teach some indicators of problems, but unless someone knows what to look for in themselves, they might not be able to figure out the source of the problem.

On the other hand, I agree that a lot of mis-information is being passed around, but as has already been noted, the same is true in every ph in the country. I had a student I was working with come up to me with a question about balance points and where to grip his cue. I knew he had been playing with an sl6 that probably suggested changing his grip. I showed him why his grip was fine, and why there was really no need to change it. I think he learned that even the good players out there don't always have the best advise.

That being said, I like the other part of your response. Break 500 times, and then you know what the best way to break is.
Set up your trouble shots and practice them until they are no longer trouble shots.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. A lot of practice can be a wonderful thing.

tateuts
07-01-2003, 11:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I'm telling you...some of this stuff I read here is from Zanzibar. It's out there.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Fran <hr /></blockquote>


Fran,

I totally agree with you. I think you may have coined a new phrase.

Let's call it "Zanzibar Pool", lessons from the lunatic fringe.

It starts off in the pool rooms - there are a lot of "teachers" who profess to know some secret aiming technique or special way of stroking the cue ball. These are the snake oil types - pitchmen who will share their secrets with you - for a price. They sound like the guy working the dart booth at the carnival. "Step right up folks! I just beat you out of your hard earned money, and for a small fee, I will show you my secret..."

It's "pool" with a capital "B" folks, a shuckster's delight. People start taking these ideas and they pass them along, representing "Zanzibar Pool " as fact.

If the players would only open their eyes and use their own minds, they would realize there is no secret to it. They should only retain instructors with credentials. As in all skills, if you have the talent and the desire, you will excel. If you don't, you won't.

Chris

Rich R.
07-01-2003, 12:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr>
Ask 10 guys the same question (live or on the internet), and you'll get many different answers. The questioner must judge the source, and he must guage its relevance to his ability.<hr /></blockquote>
Fran, Steve touched on, what I believe, is a very valid point. A questioner can get several different, all correct, answers to his/her question. But the "right" answer, for the questioner, is dependent on his/her own skill level.
As an instructor, how do you determine what answer to give players of varying skill levels?

SPetty
07-01-2003, 12:15 PM
Hi Fran,

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying - in order to improve your pool game, nothing can beat table time. But I just have to toss in my two cents and mention that (as an instructor I'm sure you know) different people learn better in different ways.

When I was in school, I ended up despising the teachers who forced you to do something that you didn't know how to do, under the precept that if you figure it out by yourself, you'll remember it better - or some such ridiculous nonsense. Something, I guess, akin to that saying that Wally posted about hearing, reading, doing.

Not everyone learns best that way, and in fact, it is the least effective way for me to learn. I'll understand it and appreciate it if you'll explain it so that I'll understand it. If it requires showing me or having me do it to explain it, that's O.K.

In the break improvement example for example: I will learn very little about breaking by simply breaking over and over and over again. (That makes as much sense to me as the pitching coach telling the kid to just throw the ball awhile, or the batting coach telling the kid to go out and hit some balls...)

However, if there was someone (or some book) that says that an effective break is performed in this manner because... that works much better for me than going to the table and breaking over and over again without that knowledge. So, if someone (or some book) explains about breaking that "if this ball is loose from that ball a little, this will happen and here's why", then I can do it and see what happens and understand it and truly learn it. And, it gives me purpose at the table rather than just swinging away at the rack over and over again.

Essentially, if you explain it in a logical way that makes sense, I can remember it a lot better than if I'm forced to do just do something over and over and over again until I finally get it right.

I wish I could remember a concrete example, but I apparently didn't remember any of that stuff from school. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I just thought the teacher was being awfully lazy to not teach us in those instances. (Probably stayed up too late playing pool the night before! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

Again, I fully agree that practicing at the table is unmatched as a way to improve your skill at this game.

SPetty~~~I hope when you or anyone see people posting truly wrong information, you or someone would be nice enough to correct it for those of us who actually might be inexperienced enough to believe it.

Fran Crimi
07-01-2003, 12:18 PM
Actually, I just changed that 500 breaks to 50 breaks. I think after 500 breaks you'd probably be dead and unable to ask the question. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

If a player strokes 15,000 times and then says that they can't figure out what the problem is, I'm there in any way I can help. If a player strokes twice and says, "I'm having trouble. Help me." Do you think maybe they might be a little whiney and are looking for a hand-out? Do you think they'd be the type of person who is going to work hard on improving their game, or mabe someone who's a little lazy and not really the type to do anything for themselves?

I've seen people here raise the same topics over and over. The same people, not different people. Why is that? They're looking for the secret. They want the answer that's going to fix their problem. But what they're really looking for, is for someone else to do the work for them because they don't feel like putting hard time on the table. Because hard time is a pain in the butt. It's work.

Fran

Deeman
07-01-2003, 12:23 PM
I don't know that I've learned that much, factually, from this forum in the four or so "off and on" years I have participated. However, I have learned a lot about the people who play and things about different games in other areas. Many people here are not from a major metro area and they have little contact with other players.

Some thing you just can't put a value on such as making a friendship with George Fels, finding out a couple of guys (Spiderman &amp; Tom from Cincy) grew up where I did and we probably played each other when we were younger. I like to hear the brash young guys ready to take us all on and hear from people who think a SL 7 is a very high skill level. I like to hear Fred try to explain simple principals (to him) to peoiple who have an entirely "feel" game. Yep, it's pretty redundant and might not ever make you pocket a ball, but it's fun or most of us would not participate. Blue Wolf won't become a better player but can sure talk the talk.

Several of us who would never have known each other will meet in Virginia Beach in a couple of months and play and drink and swap stories so that's, maybe, about all we can expect from this. However, I don't know of any of the other forums in pool or otherwise, that holds so many people for such a long time.

Many don't want to talk about their successes and failures with the people they play against every week. It's nice, I believe, for them to have a place to come and share and complain. It just may keep the drive bys and fistfights a little lower in their PH, league or house.

I just want to ask or answer a question every once in a while and see what I can pick up. Most likely, I learn about a better way to clean my cue or how to connect up with Scott. An added benefit is the entertainment of seeing 9ballgirl flirt with us old guys and hearing your opinion on the sate of Pro Pool.

Oh! I did get to learn millions of secrets from Fast Larry. Now who wuold have wanted to miss that experience? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Dee

cycopath
07-01-2003, 12:43 PM
Zanzibar Pool

The Rules:

1. Every shot you take is the wrong shot.

2. A ball in hand foul is awarded to your opponent after every shot, as every shot is the wrong shot so a foul has occurred.

3. Points are given on the 'ten points must system'.

4. Three knock down rule is in effect.

5. You cannot be saved by the bell in any round.

tateuts
07-01-2003, 12:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr> Zanzibar Pool

The Rules:

1. Every shot you take is the wrong shot.

2. A ball in hand foul is awarded to your opponent after every shot, as every shot is the wrong shot so a foul has occurred.

3. Points are given on the 'ten points must system'.

4. Three knock down rule is in effect.

5. You cannot be saved by the bell in any round.
<hr /></blockquote>

You forgot these:

6. No matter how good you are or how good you get, you are doing it the wrong way, because, if you were doing it the right way, you would be even better.

7. The right way is my way. There is no other right way.

8. Because I said so.

Chris

Fran Crimi
07-01-2003, 01:00 PM
More Zanzibar pool rules:

If you can't stay down on your shots, try using an aiming system. You'll play better.

If you can't stay down on your shots, try meditating before you shoot. You'll still jump up but you'll be calmer about it.

If you can't stay down on your shots, practice 14.1. The shots are shorter and you'll pocket more balls.

If you keep missing the same shot over and over, stay away from it. Don't practice it because it's painful. Wait instead, until it comes up again in a match. Deal with it then.

If you get better left English than right English, it's just because you're better at using left English than you are at right English. That means you have to keep practicing your right English. (It has nothing to do with where you perceive the center of the ball to be.)

Fran ~~~ founder of the Zanzibar pool school.

Sid_Vicious
07-01-2003, 01:01 PM
"I hope when you or anyone see people posting truly wrong information, you or someone would be nice enough to correct it for those of us who actually
might be inexperienced enough to believe it."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh I can just see the backdraft waiting for the door to open on this one SPetty. Have you not been here long enough to see what happens when somebody, and I don't care if it's one of the master instructors, outright contests somebody's method and calling it WRONG?" One of the biggest pissing contests I can first remember here was centered around such an event, and there are others here(won't mention names) who were there at that time also. Asking what you did may be like suggesting that somebody strike a match for light, inside a dark, nearly empty gasoline tank ;-) sid

Rod
07-01-2003, 01:08 PM
Good post Fran,

"A mind for pool." People have it in various degrees. In this day and age many people want it now. They buy all the books, tapes etc to help aquire that knowledge. That's fine but they get frustrated when things don't work. Their quick to pick up a little advice thinking it may solve the problem. That advice may may come from home base or the next county. They can end up confused and completely lost, again.

The problem as I see it here on the net or books etc is how well it is explained and the persons comprehension on the subject. Even the best of intentions can leave out a small point that can be critical. Leaving that out may or may not be intentional but it could take a ton of text to describe such. I've done it simply because of that reason.

There is no substitute for table time. If one can't make a reasonable shot and play reasonable position then your doing something wrong. Keep working on that shot until you get it right or close. Then they gain the understanding of what it takes for similar shots. We need to learn from our mistakes, not get frustrated and give up.

I learned or learn from c/b reaction and amount of o/b hit. That tells me most everything that happened on that particular stroke. In simplicity if it didn't draw, well it wasn't hit low enough or with enough speed etc.

What I see is people shoot a shot say ten times and miss it the same almost every time. I also see people shoot a certain shot and hit the c/b everywhere but the center. Well what needs to be fixed here? If people did the same at work, they wouldn't have a job. LOL To be good at anything you have to be dedicated. In general most people that put in quality table time will learn. For those that don't, well they don't and it shows in their game and knowledge.

Good insruction is a valuable tool but you need to put in the hours to solidify what you learned. Not only that but you may just learn a lot more than the lesson in the process.

Rod

Sid_Vicious
07-01-2003, 01:32 PM
"Some of the biggest breakthhroughs in my game were during that trial and error process where I was looking for an answer to one question and made a discovery about something completely unrealated that helped me tremendously."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Good point Fran. I'll learn from mistakes, misses, some drill that isn't apparently going as it should, simply by remaining open minded to the by-products. There is an "Ah-Ha! I can use that elsewhere" which hits me,,,players should learn to study the misses like the makes, there's something to be learned in losses and or misses, just depends on your viewpoint at the time...sid

pooltchr
07-01-2003, 01:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> More Zanzibar pool rules:

If you get better left English than right English, it's just because you're better at using left English than you are at right English. That means you have to keep practicing your right English. (It has nothing to do with where you perceive the center of the ball to be.)

Fran ~~~ founder of the Zanzibar pool school.

<hr /></blockquote>
I would like to submit a rule change here.
"If you get better left english than right english, always use left english regardless of where you need the cue ball to end up. This way you use the stronger part of your game"

Fran Crimi
07-01-2003, 02:02 PM
I agree with you, SPetty in that this is not about repeating the same mistakes. But it is about putting in the effort to improve. A good instructor will know the difference between a player who is willing to make the effort and a player who wants the instructor to do the work for them.

It may not seem logical to you to get on a table and shoot 100 shots the wrong way, but it does two great things for you. One, it helps you establish your work ethic, and two, it gives you the invaluable experience in how to figure things out for yourself. How do you know if you can figure it out or not unless you try? You may not find the answer to your specific problem with that shot, but you may find out something else about your game that you never realized before.

I think it's better to take the initiative youself, even if it takes you temporarily in the wrong direction, than to depend on someone else to show you the way for every question you may have, or every thing you're unsure about.

I didn't learn what NOT to do from other people's mistakes. I'm not so sure that you can.

Fran

Fran Crimi
07-01-2003, 02:08 PM
You said it a hundred times better than I did, Rod. Thanks.

Reminds me of something "Flatlands Freddie", former king of the now defunct Golden Q in Queens said: "Use your head, willya? Sheesh!"

Fran

SPetty
07-01-2003, 02:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I didn't learn what NOT to do from other people's mistakes. I'm not so sure that you can.<hr /></blockquote>Now this, my dear, is one of those golden nuggets that keeps me coming back here. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

bluewolf
07-01-2003, 02:27 PM
Some things I learned:

No matter how many lessons, gotta have that table time. kept hearing table time(did not even know what that was before ccb) and it took awhile but it sunk in.So I play everyday and improve slow.

Stroke before getting good, then pot ball pot balls.

If it were not for ccb would not have gotten to take scott and randy g lessons.

Sometimes knowlege takes awhile to sink in but still good to have.

For instance- because of instructors met here and lessons from them, if I scratch I know why. Still scratch sometimes but at least know why so pay attention to that tangent line, takes out the guesswork.

Sometimes things were over my head. Tried them at the table and had to go back to fundamentals. But there is good knowlege and ya learn who has it.

I feel that what I have learned from various people that whether I can do it now or have to store it in that CPU for later use, it is not wasted.

I think if I did not come here and get the instruction I got from scott and randy I would have no stroke. With no stroke I could hit balls til the cows come home and never ever get better. At least with a stroke, there is an opportunity to get better as I get more experience an hit more balls.

Laura

jjinfla
07-01-2003, 02:42 PM
See one; Do one; Teach one.

Over the years I have found very little informative info here on improving my game. A lot of information about how different persons approach a shot.

What I did find useful is being made aware of the various teaching videos and books. For which I am thankful.
But they are meaningless if one does not actually do the study and put in the practice.

Blackbelt Billiards I have found to be excellent and really has improved my game. But it does take a lot of work.


But even though I have put in about three hours every day for the past 4 1/2 years I will never be able to "play" pool. I will have to be content to play "at" pool. I just do not have the skill. Shame on you if you don't know the difference.

So I have resorted to going back to the APA and play their version of 9-ball. I just have to be carefull not to allow them to make me a SL-7. At least not this session. They have ways of dealing with sandbaggers. LOL

Jake

Steve Lipsky
07-01-2003, 02:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> "A mind for pool." People have it in various degrees. In this day and age many people want it now. They buy all the books, tapes etc to help aquire that knowledge.<hr /></blockquote>

Rod, along these lines, I have seen people try to learn the game from a book such as "99 Critical Shots". To my mind, this is a fairly silly way to approach the learning process.

I don't think there's a better subsitute for a regimen of osmosis, rote practice, and creative practice. Watch better players (especially Accu-Stats tapes with commentary), and practice what you see.

There are some players in my poolroom who, when they're practicing, look back during their practice strokes to see what their arm is doing. These are people with straight-enough strokes to play the game at a very high level, but they are googaning themselves to death with this crap.

Get on a practice table, shoot balls until your arm is ready to fall off, and do it right - watch your misses (as someone else suggested). You must be accountable to yourself. If you're missing consistently to one side, overcompensate until your brain begins to correctly see the proper contact point. If your cueball is hitting the rail and not going enough to the left for position, practice putting more left until your cueball is consistently on the desired path.

There are easy answers to most pool questions - the trick is to find ways to bring them out. I wanted to improve my straight pool opening break. So last year I took a table in the back, racked the balls in numerical order, and started changing all the cueball variations (break location, spin, and fullness of hit). With the numerical rack, I had turned a seemingly chaotic thing into a science. I knew which balls went where - and they did it damned near every time. I learned, for me, what was the best way to hit the break shot in under an hour. But here's the thing - it took me 10 years to figure out I should do this! That is nothing but mental laziness on my part.

To improve, we all need to invest a little time thinking about our weaknesses - and find creative ways to deal with them. And this is a pretty personal thing. Reading it in a book is not going to ingrain it nearly as deeply.

- Steve

Rod
07-01-2003, 02:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
SPetty, When I was in school, I ended up despising the teachers who forced you to do something that you didn't know how to do, under the precept that if you figure it out by yourself, you'll remember it better - or some such ridiculous nonsense. Something, I guess, akin to that saying that Wally posted about hearing, reading, doing.

Not everyone learns best that way, and in fact, it is the least effective way for me to learn. I'll understand it and appreciate it if you'll explain it so that I'll understand it. If it requires showing me or having me do it to explain it, that's O.K.

<hr /></blockquote>

Your right not everyone can learn that way but you should learn something. If you really pay attention to your mistakes and feel in your body what happened each time, you will learn. If I told you, stand at the table in your stance just before you get dowm to shoot. You would do that. Now relax every part of your body, no tension in "any" muscles. Your just standing there relaxed but erect. Your mind is relaxed and not thinking of any outcome. Now my instruction is I want you to shoot this reasonable shot and have the c/b stop here. It could be top center or draw. You completely understand what I just told you. Now the thinking process begins. Has any muscle changed? Did that create any tension? Ok on to the next step, bend over and assume your stance. You'll notice a little muscle increase in your lower back and a tad bit on your bridge arm and a little stretching. Other than that no significant change. Now take your warm up strokes. Does your shoulders and shooting hand/arm, legs still feel relaxed as they were standing up? Now shoot the shot. Did any thing change, were you relaxed as you were standing up? During most normal strokes little changes. When you notice significant changes it is the areas you need to be aware of and relax. You relax your arm either in the shoulder/neck area or the grip on the cue.

This would take a ton of text so I just said this as a quickie. The point is when things change from a normal relaxed position is where problems start. If your aware of those changes you at least have a way of finding a cure on your own. If you practice your break 50 times, start out slow and notice those changes as you increase speed. It is those changes that cause miss hits etc. So you see by yourself you can analize areas and improve. There is more of course but this is the basic construction of building good pool stroke. When the stroke is unhurried, smooth and straight, the learning process really begins. You develop consistancy and it turns into a snow ball effect. Do you think you can improve your break or shotmaking ect now if you practice something 50 times?

I didn't add all the disclaimers that some may question, it was just a basic overview. If someone wants to add "simplicity" to this be my guest. Ok I'm off to a meeting. RELAX!!!

Rod

Ralph S.
07-01-2003, 03:28 PM
Hello Fran. I am not taking your using me for an example,the wrong way, but I am surprised by it. If you go back and look at my question and what I was driving at you will see that until Scott Lee posted, nobody stated whether the rack was more important than one game or the other. Or whether they were equally important.

Scott was the only one that actually read and realized what I was stating. You even misunderstood it yourself apparently, like everybody else that responded. They were all posting how fast their cb speed was on the break, how many balls they make, wether they are loose or what ever.

The question was, once again, <font color="red"> </font color> is the rack more important in one game or the other 8ball vs. 9ball? <font color="black"> </font color>

In all fairness and honesty, I think you will find that I am right.

Respectfully, Ralph S.

Ralph S.
07-01-2003, 03:31 PM
Thanks for the voucher Tom. It looks like I may need it after this thread LOL. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Steve Lipsky
07-01-2003, 04:05 PM
Hey Ralph. Didn't I answer your original question? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

- Steve

Ralph S.
07-01-2003, 04:16 PM
Yes you, Scott and very few others actually gave a straight answer. All the others were concerned with break speed and all that other stuff and missed the point entirely. Sorry, I didn't mean to exclude you, but I am sure you probably understand where I am coming from.

Fran Crimi
07-01-2003, 04:43 PM
Hi Ralph,

Sure I understood your question exactly. I just didn't post an answer. LOL!

The answer is to set up racks of 8 ball and 9 ball and loosen balls in each rack and then break using different combinations of cb placement, speed and loose balls and see what happens. Not counting Steve, how many people do you think did that?

Even though several didn't answer your question directly, they went on to describe their opinion regarding loose balls. It was pretty clear to me that they didn't experiment with them or they would have found what Steve said and more. You can use loose balls to your benefit (even if it's one of the the first three balls) if you understand the meaning of their placement and when necessary, how to adjust your break to accommodate that.

Fran

Fran Crimi
07-01-2003, 04:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I didn't learn what NOT to do from other people's mistakes. I'm not so sure that you can.<hr /></blockquote>Now this, my dear, is one of those golden nuggets that keeps me coming back here. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

LOL! Well, then what are you waiting for? Get to the table and miss a hundred times.

Fran

Ralph S.
07-01-2003, 05:02 PM
Fran, you are telling me to leave certain balls loose and so on. You say this is the answer. Read Scott's answer and you will then see the correct answer. You are one of the posters I most wanted/hoped would answer in a similar fashion. Instead I am being told to hit balls around, which leads me to believe that you are implying that I dont put in any real table time.

I have been on vacation since Friday June 30th and still have until July 12th off. So far I have spent close to $150 bucks for table time. If that doesnt qualify then nothing will.

I suggest you re-read the question, then re-read Scott's reply, and then, maybe then you will understand the question. But, just incase you don't, I will rephrase it for you.

Assuming that the balls are racked properly in both 8ball and 9ball, does the break become more important in either game. Please, no hitting balls response. Show me the brilliance I know you posess and give me a real answer.

Fran Crimi
07-01-2003, 05:14 PM
I never said to leave certain balls loose. I said that you can take advantage of certain balls being loose if you understand their placement and understand how to adjust your break.

If you don't agree, that's fine, but please don't put words in my mouth.

Fran

Fran Crimi
07-01-2003, 05:43 PM
OK Ralph, now for part II. Here's my VERY specific answer to your question since you're so hell-bent on obtaining an answer from me.

The answer is that the only thing that matters is getting control of the table before your opponent does. What gives you control of the table first, is making a ball on the break. So, my OFFICIAL answer is, that a tight rack isn't more important in one game than the other because the only important thing is getting control of the table before your opponent does.

The important thing is making a ball on the break. That's equally as important in both games.

You can have clusters all over the place, but if you're in control of the table, you're always in a position to win. If you're not in control of the table, all you can do is sit there and watch.

That's what I was trying to explain to you about interpreting loose balls. It's a matter of making a ball on the break, not tight racks.

Fran

Voodoo Daddy
07-01-2003, 09:44 PM
Yeah Fran...I remember those days, I still believe its the only true way to accel is HITTIN BALLS UNTIL YOU WANNA DIE. The net gives the idea but without a 100% effort at the felt pulpit, all the text and all the talk is meaningless. I yearn for simpler days when there was no internet and people forced themselves out of the house and to the pool room. Sittin' in front of this terminal...reading what could be great or really bad info, we are all takin' a chance.

Hopster
07-02-2003, 03:09 AM
The problem as I see it here on the net or books etc is how well it is explained and the persons comprehension on the subject. Even the best of intentions can leave out a small point that can be critical. Leaving that out may or may not be intentional but it could take a ton of text to describe such. I've done it simply because of that reason. &lt;--Rod

Rod what you just said has been on my mind for a long time. Books no matter how detailed are fine but people interpert things in different ways and when they have to put the knowledge to actual use they get flustered when things dont turn out right. I probably just said the same thing you did but i gave up on pool books a while ago, sure i have a few but i think ive gotten all out of them that in going to, the rest is up to me. My game has improved dramatically as of late and people are noticing it. It all has to do with how ive comprehended things myself and corrected things myself. I still mess up but now i know why. Theres no substitute for GOOD trigger time.
Btw Rod, i think summer is upon us. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bluewolf
07-02-2003, 05:39 AM
Just like I heard here for so long, there is no substitute for practice and time. That finally permeated this thick head of mine.

When I first had a lesson with scott, I thought I was supposed to be able to do everthing he taught perfect.

I had no concept of what was reasonable or realistic.I would be beating myself up because I could not hit, for instance dead center on the cb very often and I was driving myself relentlessly, and ended up for awhile hating pool.

After all, scott had showed this to me. Then ww points out how consistent a sl7 or a pro is on this for me to realize. I was kind of an innocent and did not know what was realistic based on the time I had played, which was very short. Really. CCB did help me in that respect,also;people like fran, rod, tom cincy and others who had a lot of time.

I think that there is that part two. Folks, like me, even folks who have played a little longer, expecting too much too soon, not out of wanting a quick fix only, but also out of ignorance, not knowing what is realistic.

bw

DebraLiStarr
07-02-2003, 07:11 AM
The internet has not made learning easier, it has made the information more readily available. Prior to the CCB, RSB was a great source of information, but it is not like it used to be. I have received priceless info via this board as well as many others.

Fred Agnir
07-02-2003, 07:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
You can talk about this stuff all day, but IMO, nothing beats experience, folks. Get out there and test it out yourselves. JMHO /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Fran
<hr /></blockquote>I can't agree more.

Fred

9 Ball Girl
07-02-2003, 07:40 AM
You're definitely right. Even now I say that if I only knew the people and info I know now back when I started playing, I'd probably be a Pro! Yeah right. Back when I started, I didn't know such things as drills, stance, etc. I just did what I did when I played with anyone. I did take it more seriously than my peers and I remember paying attention to what the CB would do when I'd hit it at different spots etc. and remember my fascination at the way the CB danced having no idea that it was all English and what not.

I remember cruising Barnes &amp; Nobles back in the late 80s for a school project and I came across a couple of billiard books. I remember telling my friend "Holy $hit they have books on this?!" /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Fred Agnir
07-02-2003, 07:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
Many questions I see here that players are asking are the same ones many of us have asked ourselves along the line. In many cases, the answers lie in a couple of hours of hard work at the table.

I think that half the questions you're asking wouldn't have to be asked if you took it to the table and worked it out, and I also think that half the answers you're getting to your questions wouldn't be so 'misinformed' if those players also took it to the table to work it out.<hr /></blockquote>Here's my take. The best thing about the internet boards is that there are people who will answer questions. There's a plethora of information that mallville, USA wouldn't have access to.

The bad part of course is that there's too much information, misinformation, information for the wrong audience, and too many hardhead egomaniacs. Typical poolplayer mentality, I suppose.

Some people like to say that there is no such thing as a bad student. Just bad teachers. I think this is wrong. There *are* bad students, if this forum is what they are expecting as the "teacher." All the fast flying information speeding in front of the monitor in black and white mean nothing without practical use. That's for the students and the would-be teacher. And for a forum like this, it is the "student's " responsibility to go out there and test it own their own. Not "Oh, that makes sense" and never actually putting the time on the table to see if it "makes sense."

I also find it highly believable that many of the hints and suggestions from well-intentioned posters have never actually been tested on a pool table by those people who suggest such ideas. Furthermore, rebuttals from disagreeing posters come in the form of words rather than, dare I say, testing it on a pool table. And yes, it gets called, and heated discussion follows suit. So goes the ego portion of the players.

Fred &lt;~~~ tries everything he spews

P.S. IMNSHO, nobody posting to this board should be posting as a teacher, but as a sharer (is that a word?)

Steve Lipsky
07-02-2003, 08:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> IMNSHO, nobody posting to this board should be posting as a teacher, but as a sharer (is that a word?)<hr /></blockquote>

I think Fred needs a group hug, everybody. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

One other thing I want to say. There is something to be gained from talking about this game, and hearing other ideas. Even if you believe them to be wrong, they get you thinking about your own beliefs. This is always a good thing.

- Steve

Fran Crimi
07-02-2003, 09:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
P.S. IMNSHO, nobody posting to this board should be posting as a teacher, but as a sharer (is that a word?)

<hr /></blockquote>

That's not fair, Fred. That's too much of a blanket statement. If you say that no one should be posting like they know all the answers, I'd say yup, I totally agree.

I dare to challenge anyone who works harder than I do to try to get players to think for themselves, but if I or someone else who feels they have good reason, decides to get a little authoritative about something that can be supported with proof, so what?

Let the posters figure out who's who for themselves. All they have to do is take it to the table and they'll know who's who.

Fran

Fred Agnir
07-02-2003, 09:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
P.S. IMNSHO, nobody posting to this board should be posting as a teacher, but as a sharer (is that a word?)

<hr /></blockquote>

That's not fair, Fred. That's too much of a blanket statement. If you say that no one should be posting like they know all the answers, I'd say yup, I totally agree.
<hr /></blockquote>Maybe I worded it wrong. It's the approach to posting is what I'm talking about. Someone asks a question, and gets several responses. It becomes quickly clear when someone responds with "I'm the teacher, you're the student" tone rather than a "I'll share what I've got" tone.

It seems to me that most if not all the professional instructors on this board have no problem responding in a "I'll share what I've got" tone.

There are a few blatant examples of "I'm the teacher" type of posts that have quickly resulted in banishment due to the uproar it creates.

Fred

07-02-2003, 12:51 PM
Hi Fran this is Fast, you have made an excellent post and point, I would like to weigh in on it please.

A board like this is fun for the younger players to chit chat about pool and share info. They make friends and meet each other at events. A wealth of data is being exchanged and that is all great. The mistake the younger players are making is asking each other how to play pool and getting and receiving instruction from each other on the board. You have beginners teaching beginners and that goes nowhere fast.
There are a lot of regulars giving regular teaching advice who are sl 2's, 3's and most are 4's. These are people who can't run 3 balls. When someone who is knowledgeable states a solid opinion, 5 of them chirp in on the thread with their version of it. They should be listening and learning and not teaching. When they graduate from the BCA teaching academy, then they should begin to teach on the board. Until then they should just ask intellgent questions and let the real pro's do the teaching.

That makes it difficult for the newbie coming on the board because he does not know who to listen to and who is right and who is wrong. If you listen to it all it only leads to total confusion. You will get the disease paralysis by analysis.

You cant learn to play pool on this board or out of any book. You learn to play pool on a table as Fran said. Find your answers there. Put in the time, you will find them if you dig and experiment. If these so called teachers on this board would put the 12 hrs a day practicing pool instead of 12 hrs a day sitting behind their cpu's, they would no longer be sl 3's, they would now be 7's.
You need some good solid books for reference material. You need a lot of table time. You need to pot one million balls. You need to acquire and study accustat tapes so you can study the greatest playes and their techniques. You need to be matching up or competiting in pool hall tourneys several times a week. Every day you need to play someone better than you and study how he beat you.

You need to find a professional teacher and get your basics filmed and your stroke and game put in rock solid shape. Do these things and you advance. Sit behind your cpu and listen to what the sl 2's have to say and you go no where.

You are blessed on this board to have a large stable of highly qualified professional teachers who have decades of experience behind them. Most of them are BCA teaching school graduates. The next time you have a question don't just throw it out to the wind for everyone to have at it, start a post and ask Fran, or Scott, Mr. Lipsky or Agnir or Blackjack,randy and the 10 other pro level people here to answer it for you, and they will.

Take their answer and run with it, When the dozen sl 2's and 3's chirp in with their version of how to do it, fast forward along and try not to read what they say. Talk cues with them, or league stuff, but when it comes to instructions, only listen to the qualified pro's on this board is my advice.
Back in the old days when people actually came in pool halls and worked on their games I would see roadies shooting the same simple cut shot several hundred times in a row and I would say why are you doing that. They would say I missed that shot last night and it cost me $500. I'll never miss that shot ever again. There was a work ethic in the game Fran alluded to.

I saw a fan once ask Steve Davis after a match why did you pot the harder pink down the rail when a easier pot black was available. Steve's answer was set up that 4 ball sequence and shoot it 500 times, then you will no longer have to ask why, you will then fully understand and you will have that pattern mastered. The fan walked off muttering rude bloke, he just did not get it. Steve was saying what Fran is saying, your answers are on the table, go find them for yourselves, the sl 2's giving free advice on the board are not going to save you. There is no shortcut to this, it is years of hard work, blood, sweat and tears. When you find it for yourself, it is always better than having someone show it to. Fast Larry

07-02-2003, 02:03 PM
Well, Larry, glad to see you posting under your real name. And I see you've worked on your posting style a bit to keep the condescension toned down. Good job -- if you can manage to keep your temper and ego from flaring up in your posts, then I'm sure myself and others can learn a lot from your experience. Thanks for sharing your knowledge in a positive way. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

jjinfla
07-02-2003, 02:21 PM
Tap Tap Tap

Jake

Fran Crimi
07-02-2003, 03:53 PM
I have an entire collection of ugly, disgusting, hateful and vicious things you have written publicly about me over the years, the last one being, what...a few weeks ago? Sorry sid, I don't buy into this nicey-poo Fran stuff you're doing. All I can say is you've got a lot of nerve.

Fran

Ralph S.
07-02-2003, 04:02 PM
Fran, you seem to be taking this personal. I am not. If I was I would be very upset for being the one singled out as the example in your initial post. You yourself said in a response to this thread that you didnt answer the question, yet you were giving your opinions and thoughts. When I asked for a direct response to the question I get accused of being "hell-bent". I am not that way.

I am in no way "hell-bent". If you didnt want put on the spot, you simply shouldnt have dodged answering the question the first time and then say "I didn't post an answer LOL" while still making statements.

I appologize if I offended you, but it's all there in black and white. Just so you know, the appology is sincere.

Fran Crimi
07-02-2003, 04:25 PM
Right. I wasn't very happy with what you wrote to me, Ralph. My original point was about the people in your thread who responded about balls not touching. It was irrelevant to me whether or not they understood your question.

As for your question, I dodged it because I didn't see the relevance of your use of the term "proper" rack. I like you and I didn't want to tell you that I thought you were talking Zanzibar pool there. It didn't even make sense to me for you to put that term in the question. In fact, I think it confused the other posters as well, which is why you probably got so many strange responses.

Oh well...upwards and onwards. I'm certainly not offended...just a little put off for about 5 minutes. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

Keith Talent
07-02-2003, 05:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
It seems to me that most if not all the professional instructors on this board have no problem responding in a "I'll share what I've got" tone.
<hr /></blockquote>

I'm with you there, Fred. But sometimes it seems like what ought to be a free market turns into some sort of command economy. Or you could say there's a good cop/bad cop split between various teachers who post here and a sort of struggle for control of the high ground.

All I can say is that if I'm looking for help or a lesson, I ain't going to call up bad cop. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Qtec
07-02-2003, 05:20 PM
In one of my first posts I made a statement about providing a pupil information on a " need to know" basis . I got jumped on. 'Information was the key to playing better' was the cry !I still contend that too much information can be a bad thing.

Information is only helpful if you have the tools to use it .

Also it is impossible to coach someone when you dont have a table in front of you . You need to see whats going on , you also need feedback.
So for anybody who wants to improve , take a lesson .How fast you improve is usually linked to table time . Certainly if you are a beginer.

Cheap advice can also be costly.

One time a reasonable snooker player comes to me and asks me to have a look at his cue action [ stroke].Sets up a long blue off the spot [ diagonal]. He hits 2 balls , misses both .
I noticed that he was getting down on the shot and he was looking at the wrong ball. I told him to look at the other ball and things were OK again. He thought at first I was joking [ moi ?].He only believed when it worked .

With the wrong advice he could still be working on a problem that he doesnt have .

If you want info. on which ball to hit on the break , what tip , etc fine. Reading alone wont make you better. Practicing the right things in the right way will.

Everybody has their limitations , but on the CCB you can always " talk a good game ". /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


Q




[ There are many tennis coaches who teach basicaly the same techniques ,albeit in their own individual ways ]

bluewolf
07-02-2003, 07:36 PM
You sent me a nice drill. It showed me I was not hitting the center of the cueball quite right.A nugget of information that I could practice at my table, that was what I needed then and am still practicing it.

Even though I have learned here, sometimes I have to skip lots of stuff. It might even come from knowlegeable people but over my head or not on my learning curve according to what I am ready to practice.

laura

07-03-2003, 02:31 AM
D morris, yes sir, that is my game plan, to do exactly that, to make positive posts that may help players. Thank you for the kind words. Fast Larry

07-03-2003, 02:49 AM
Post deleted by ccb_admin_2

pooltchr
07-03-2003, 06:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr>

the newbie coming on the board because he does not know who to listen to and who is right and who is wrong.

You cant learn to play pool on this board or out of any book. You learn to play pool on a table as Fran said. can study the greatest playes and their techniques.....

You need to find a professional teacher and get your basics filmed and your stroke and game put in rock solid shape. Do these things and you advance. Sit behind your cpu and listen to what the sl 2's have to say and you go no where.

You are blessed on this board to have a large stable of highly qualified professional teachers who have decades of experience behind them. Most of them are BCA teaching school graduates. The next time you have a question don't just throw it out to the wind for everyone to have at it, start a post and ask Fran, or Scott, Mr. Lipsky or Agnir or Blackjack,randy and the 10 other pro level people here to answer it for you, and they will.

Take their answer and run with it, Talk cues with them, or league stuff, but when it comes to instructions, only listen to the qualified pro's on this board is my advice.


<hr /></blockquote>
Well said. But you need to remember some of the people on this board really don't aspire to be anything more than an average league player. That is fine, as long as that is what they want. Those of us with a passion for the game have put in the table time, gone to school, become instructors because it is a way to help the people that really want to find their "best game".

I have a league team of beginners, some of them barely know which end of the cue to hold. I offered a free class to that team to work with them on basics. It was a total waste of my time and theirs. On the other hand, the students that come to me and want to sign up for lessons are the ones that I love working with. They are like sponges trying to soak up everything.

I think maybe some on the board here are just looking for that free magic secret that will make them players overnight. On the other hand, there are some who for whatever reason may not have qualified instructors available and find this forum to be the next best thing.

As you stated, the hardest thing is knowing who is qualified to offer good instruction, and who is just out there firing blanks in the air. My advise to anyone on this board is spend some time just reading posts, and eventually, you will figure out who the best sources of information are.

JMHO
Steve

Fran Crimi
07-03-2003, 07:23 AM
Post deleted by Fran Crimi

Sid_Vicious
07-03-2003, 10:33 AM
That's a general diffence between you and me Fran....you hold a grudge and I don't. Oh well it doesn't matter to me, I just thought that when someone(you in this case) posts something I think is upstanding stuff, I'd accent my approval.

I'd try to chill out a little if I were you...sid

Blackwolf
07-03-2003, 10:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> That's a general diffence between you and me Fran....you hold a grudge and I don't.<hr /></blockquote>What was the incident(s) that Fran felt a grudge about? BW

Fran Crimi
07-03-2003, 11:13 AM
No problem, sid. Whatever you say. Just wanted you to know I can see right through your BS.

Have a good one... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

Sid_Vicious
07-03-2003, 11:27 AM
Just do yourself a favor and chill out....sid~~~apparently full of BS

Fran Crimi
07-03-2003, 11:48 AM
Ha! This isn't about me, sid. It's about you. I'm so chilled it's cold in here. LOL!

I've sat back and watched you take pot shot after pot shot at me for years, now. About 90% of the time, I kept silent and decided it was better not to respond because it's evident how you are. So, now that I'm saying something to you, I'm suddenly in the need of chilling, huh?

You can't talk about someone like they're a piece of garbage one minute and then the next minute give them credit and sincerely mean it. That's ludicrous, not to mention that it's sick.

I'm really chilled, sid, I just had enough of your "apparrent" BS.

Fran

tateuts
07-03-2003, 01:05 PM
Fran,

The better players, like yourself, who are masters and have been challenged in competition and have played against the best, should not be shy or reluctant to offer hard core advice.

Call it "teaching", call it "preaching" call it "dictating" call it "being yelled at". I don't care what you call it - I like hearing it and I want the information because it helps me.

I want to hear that if I can't make a shot, get down and shoot it for two hours until I can.

This is the best advice I've ever heard.

How else are others going to know what it takes to be good?

Chris

Fran Crimi
07-03-2003, 02:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> Fran,

The better players, like yourself, who are masters and have been challenged in competition and have played against the best, should not be shy or reluctant to offer hard core advice.

Call it "teaching", call it "preaching" call it "dictating" call it "being yelled at". I don't care what you call it - I like hearing it and I want the information because it helps me.

I want to hear that if I can't make a shot, get down and shoot it for two hours until I can.

This is the best advice I've ever heard.

How else are others going to know what it takes to be good?

Chris

<hr /></blockquote>


Chris, you're a pool player after my own heart. I remember when I first started running a rack in 9-ball, and an old hustler was helping me with my game. One day he was sitting there watching me practice and I broke and ran out a rack. I turned to him, all smiles, as if to say, see...didn't I do great? He looked at me with a deadpan expression and said, "You ran that rack out like a worm. Now get up there and shoot like a pool player." I was devastated, but he was dead right. I was nipping and tucking the whole rack. Five minutes later I was firing in balls and smoke was coming out of the pockets.

It's tough, because when you're learning you have to have that mix of confidence and belief in yourself, yet at the same time enough humbleness to face your demons and get past them.

Fran

HOWARD
07-03-2003, 02:57 PM
Susan,

I remember watching some program on public television.


The case was a university teacher in Switzerland did a
little experiment. He took a class and the first third of the time he taugh the students in a traditional way.

The tests were given and graded on the curve.

Next he taught the students on the next third length of time in a non tradition manner and gave a test again graded on the curve. And then on the last third of time he taught
this class in another non traditonal method and he gave them the test and graded them on the curve.

The interesting part was the curve was the same in all three
cases as far the shape went. But it was different students at the top of the curve in each case. Same students, same class - different teaching methods.

So I guess that is a fancy way of saying ones mans drink is another man poison.

Howard

07-03-2003, 03:18 PM
Fran, what are all of those deleted posts. Bring us up to date, what went on? I made a few phone calls and a little birdie told me you and Fast got into in and you got him kickied off the board for the 2nd time. He was posting some good stuff, what was the problem?

Fran Crimi
07-03-2003, 04:55 PM
Hey, thanks for giving me the opportunity to dispel the rumors. Here's what happened. Fast mistakenly thought a post I wrote to sid was addressed to him. He was hurt and upset and rehashed a misunderstanding that occurred between us in the past, which has since been completely resolved. BD saw the post and deleted it. I saw it was deleted so I deleted my response to him as well.

Fast called me and told me he had been banned again by the CCB and asked me if I had anything to do with it. I told him the truth. Absolutely not. I had nothing to do with him being banned the last time and this time as well. I have had absolutely no correspondence with BD regarding Fast, EVER, until this morning, when I called them on his behalf, asking that they consider reinstating him. I explained to them that it was a simple misunderstanding and his posts have been really great since he returned.

I do not have the final say in BD's decisions and I do not know their final decision. I would like to see him back, but it's not my choice to make.

Fran

Tom_In_Cincy
07-03-2003, 05:33 PM
Fran,

Nice gesture on your part, as I would expect.

BD admin has their reasons. I am just surprized that they ban someone and a few months later let them back in. And then ban them again so quickley. This doesn't make a lot of sense.

I read FL's post before it was deleted and was almost ready to bust a gut laughing.

I don't think I have ever seen someone so "off base" on their thoughts on this forum.

bluewolf
07-03-2003, 06:01 PM
Tom,

Fast was up very late. The post was almost 5am. He did see the post to sid and it looked to me like he thought Fran was talking to him.

I do not know about him but I can be pretty goofy at that time. He was really trying overall and I am glad that Fran wrote BD. That was very nice of her.

Laura

NH_Steve
07-04-2003, 07:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> A wise man once said:

I hear and I forget
I read and I remember
I do and I understand <hr /></blockquote>Then it must have been a fool that said:

Those that can, do
Those that can't, teach /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just kidding, really!
Yet it is true that sometimes the best teachers -- even in sports -- have the knowledge and are good at articulating it, but can't hit the 90 mph fastball themselves. By the same token, just because you can hit the 90 mph fastball doesn't make you a good teacher. Then there are the rare few, who can hit the fastball (or could at one time /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ), and are good teachers!

I apologize if this whole post is redundant to what others have beaten to death, but I didn't read the entire discussion.

07-05-2003, 08:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Billy:</font><hr> Fran, what are all of those deleted posts. Bring us up to date, what went on? I made a few phone calls and a little birdie told me you and Fast got into in and you got him kickied off the board for the 2nd time. He was posting some good stuff, what was the problem? <hr /></blockquote>

U sure fooled us again with this new name!!! I don't think anyone caught on!!