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Cuemage
03-31-2002, 01:06 PM
I just want to sound off against all the smokers. I cherish playing & watching high-caliber pool. However, many times I have to cut my session short due to excessive cigarette smoke. I went to the PRO Tournament at J.O.B.'s in TN & had to cut short my stay by a whole day because the smoke level was so high I could barely see the other side of the room. Maybe the room owners should invest in smoke-remover sytems. If ever there is a room near me that has a no-smoking section, then they have a member for life here.

Tired of dying with the smokers,

The Cuemage

PQQLK9
03-31-2002, 01:23 PM
Well said Cuemage...as a non-smoker for 22 years I curcur wholeheartly...I am not an anti-smoker but think if smokers were just a bit more considerate in public places and use a litle discretion we all could breathe better and not leave smelling like an ash tray.

Cancer Cures Smoking

03-31-2002, 01:25 PM
You're not alone cuemage. Smoke in poolrooms is a definite health issue for many people.I haven't seen many non smoking sections in poolrooms and the smoke-free room is virtually non existent. Fred

Barbara
03-31-2002, 04:23 PM
It was for that very reason why I didn't play regularly with the bar league and told them I would only play if they needed a 5th. Well, I got sucked back in for the last 7 matches of the year and the last match of the season was last Tuesday. It was at a VFW and there was absolutely no air circulation. As soon as the match was over, I went outside becuase I couldn't take it anymore. And the captain of the team thinks it's funny how I can't tolerate the smoke anymore.

She'll see how funny it is next year when I tell her I won't even be on the roster.

Barbara~~~smoking STINKS!

Vagabond
03-31-2002, 06:25 PM
Hello Mates,
Chalkie in Indianapolis,Indiana is a upscale, nonsmoking pool room.Celebraties like Basket ball star Reggie Miller and WPBA`s star Jeanette Lee are it`s customers.The place is too expensive for me(I have Rolls Royce menue with Morris Minor budget).When in Indy I go to Executive Billiards where I still could see the balls thru the clouds.LOL
Vagabond

03-31-2002, 09:00 PM
2nd hand smoke is very dangerous. No smokless poolhalls around me so I bought a table. I consider myself fortunate to be able to do so.Jim B

cuechick
04-01-2002, 02:00 AM
One of the reason I love the BCA tournamnet in Vegas is it's smoke free in the tournament room. LOVE IT!!! It makes such a difference. I also like playing in L.A. where it is not allowed indoors, anywhere. I agree that it's the lack of consideration that makes me so anti-smoking.
I really feel the Women's Regional tours should not allow smoking. It is not allowed on the pro tour, if we must follow the dress code, then why not? I have also noticed smokers usingtheir habit as a sharking device. Like waiting till you are down on the 9 ball to light up!

Doctor_D
04-01-2002, 08:10 AM
Good morning:

As a casual smoker, I only smoke while drinking and/or at the Billiard Club, I indulge in no more the One (1) pack a week. I do not smoke while shooting because, aside from the fact that the cigarette gets in the way, it will usually burn out before I can finish it myself. How people can let a cigarette hang from their mouth while shooting is beyond me. Especially, when the ashes are falling on the table.

I enjoy my Dunhill Reds, but not over the table

Dr. D.

04-01-2002, 09:35 AM
People continually wonder why pool doesnt move forward as a sport.I believe the smoke issue is one of the key reasons it is perceived as such a low class,low life activity while all us pool lovers know in truth it is not.Smoke can turn the nicest place with the classiest decor into an ugly,smelly environment.Second hand smoke is disgusting to breathe especially over long periods of time and it cuses profound health problems.Take me for example.i am 40 years old and spent 16 straight years in a pool room for many hours a day.By the age of 37 I developed chronic obstructive lung disease from the smoke and I had strong shortness of breath consistently.The doctor told me to stay away from smoke I and I havent been in a smokey pool room for 3 and a half years.As a result I cant play tourneys or match up like I used to.Basically I cant compete anymore and I only can play at my table or in a local poolroom in the afternoons when few people are around.I want you to know that in my early twenties and mid twenties I competed professionally and made a living gambling at the game.My love,passion and commitment to the game are far above the average pool fan.I wanted to be a champion but I had to quit over this issue.By the way my high run in straight pool is 280.I tell you this in all earnest so you know how much of my life Ive committed to the game and how painful it is for me not to be able to compete anymore.If smoking was banned from poolrooms my life would profoundly change and i guarantee you I would become a player all you pool fans would read about and enjoy watching.But guess what if I cant go to regional tourneys and to pool rooms to compete with good players I just become a good player who is too mentally soft to get it done against the big boys.I cant get hard and tough without that competition.So in a nutshell I prat to God poolrooms become smoke free but by the time they do I will be too old to become a great player and thats something I just need to accept.Thanks for listening to my story.It feels good to express it on here.I have more to say on this smoking topic and will in the near fututr but I need to run now.Keep hitting em

stickman
04-01-2002, 10:21 AM
I felt guilty enough reading all the other posts, but this one tops it off. I'm hopelessly addicted to cigarettes, after smoking for 35+ years. I realize that at the pool room I smoke like a smokestack, far more than I might normally. Perhaps it's to curb my nervousness. I'm really quite a nice guy, but one with a nasty habit. I never really considered the effect that my smoking could have on others. I guess the fact that others were there doing it made it okay in my mind. I promise to leave my cigarettes at home the next time I go to the pool hall. This won't keep others from doing it, but will at least clear my own conscious. Thanks for the wakeup, and perhaps if enough information like this is spread, things will change. I sure hate to be guilty of denying anyone the opportunity to enjoy this great sport. My apologies.

cheesemouse
04-01-2002, 10:34 AM
Anon-unreg,
When I read between the lines of your post I actually believe that you can play this game. I can't put my finger on it but some sort of a deep knowledge about this game and what it takes to emerge on top begins to shine through and you could add to the discussion we have on the ccb, be it light or serious. I do have one suggestion. Register and take advange of the 'bona fide's that this simple act will lend your aurguments.

Cuemage
04-01-2002, 07:59 PM
Cuechick,
I get sharked sometimes when my opponent smokes & then leaves a huge cloud right above the table when he walks away from it...probably unintentional, but it bothers me nonetheless.

The Cuemage

Cuemage
04-01-2002, 08:12 PM
Thanx Stickman! one down...3 billion to go...

Hooray for Stickman!

The Cuemage

04-01-2002, 08:26 PM
Vagabond...As I was traveling between Chicago and Knoxville, I was just in Chalkie's last Monday night, about an hour before closing, to take a short break from driving! Nice room, nice people working there, and nice equipment. I had not even noticed that it was a nonsmoking room (since I am a nonsmoker anyway)! I didn't have to pay, as I was playing with one of the regulars, so I was not made aware of the table time costs. However, I would be
willing to pay a little extra to play in nonsmoking conditions!

Scott Lee

04-01-2002, 08:45 PM
Cuemage, aren't you from the Greensboro area? I know it's a 2 hour drive, but our room outside of Boone is very clean - non-smoking and non-alcoholic. If you plan to spend the whole day and/or evening, it will be worth the drive and you'll come back often. I take it for granted until I visit another room, then I realize how good we have it here. I'd also love the opportunity to knock some around with you. - Chris in NC

Cuemage
04-01-2002, 09:31 PM
Sounds like a done deal Chris...I actually threw tha idea by tha Mrs...she wasn't real keen on going (bad memories) but gave me plenty of leeway to go...I'll let u know when I can come.

The Cuemage

Kato
04-02-2002, 10:14 AM
Makes sense about the non-smoking thing. I've noticed all of the smoke under the lights but never thought about it. I think I will only smoke outside between sets from here on out. Now will I do what I say or not? This is a question for the ages. I'll try to be a good boy. For all ya'll that don't smoke.

Kato

04-02-2002, 12:53 PM
Cuemage...I can't stand the smoking either. I live in Boulder Co, where it is supposedly "unlawful" to smoke in establishments. This "law", however, is ignored in the only decent pool hall in town. I have suffered with the second hand smoke in this room for too long. I recently made the decision to forego all tournaments and playing in the evening. My only recourse is to play during the day, and unfortunately....I have to work then.

As much as I love the game, I don't want to die early gasping for breath due to the filthy habit of others.

Regards,

Doug

04-02-2002, 01:18 PM
Stickman, I appreciate your understanding greatly. The smoking/ Anti-smoking issue is such a contested topic that emotions can really run high. It is such a breath of fresh air (bad pun intended) for one to listen and understand where the other side is comming from.
I've never been a smoker and have huge problems with smoke, both mentally and physically( I'll spare everone the details). However, I live with a smoker. The only things that works in my household are compromise and cool heads. Smokeless ashtrays/air filters and no smoking in the gameroom seem to work here and keep us from arguements.
BTW, in Atlanta (Decatur to be exact) a poolroom by the name of Twain's has a smoking room AND a non-smoking room (rooms,not just sections) with Simonis covered Gold Crowns and lots of them.
Peace...
Tim

Vicki
04-02-2002, 03:42 PM
I want to thank you, Cuemage, for bringing this up in a public forum. I quit smoking about a year and a half ago. Since quitting I find it nearly impossible to enjoy playing pool. I live in a very conservative county where smoking is prohibited in nearly every public place - except pool rooms and bars that serve liquor. Recently laws were passed that require a partitioned non-smoking section for places where smoking is still allowed - unfortunately, this law is not enforced so not followed.

My options are as follows: Give up going to places where people smoke or tolerate the smoke and smokers. If I give up going to pool halls I more or less give up pool - not an option. If I tolerate smokers I risk having my 10 year old daughter have TWO parents who died from lung cancer. Her father, a pool player, has already died from smoking related cancer - at 42 years old. I am 30 and not ready to die that way...

What to do... become an activist to ban smoking in my local area.... Thank you for the motivation.

Alfie
04-02-2002, 05:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tim in ATL:</font><hr> BTW, in Atlanta (Decatur to be exact) a poolroom by the name of Twain's has a smoking room AND a non-smoking room (rooms,not just sections) with Simonis covered Gold Crowns and lots of them.
Peace...
Tim <hr></blockquote>
How many tables in each room? Do they fill them up?

04-02-2002, 09:55 PM
If your ever in Colorado Springs stop by my room, Aim Ahead Billiards , non-smoking, non-alcohol, open 3 pm to 5 am 7 days a week. I will be opening up in May 02 with Gold Crown Is' and IIs' and a trap 8' Valley Cougar. BF

Cuemage
04-02-2002, 10:14 PM
Vicki,

We have similar experiences. I lost my mother (an avid smoker) to lung cancer. (She was 38 years old &amp; I was 10).
Usually I play in the day, before the room gets really smoky. But once I buy tha Mrs a house, I get to buy a table :-) This will be ideal for practicing &amp; then I only have to venture out for tournaments &amp; pool fellowship.

The Cuemage

04-03-2002, 12:29 AM
Yeah i have lots of friends that are not smokers and they would like to see a no smoking PH in town, i thought about opening a PH but do you think a smokeless PH would be able to make it, I live in a town of only 50,000 people and i am not sure it would go over. I personally am not a smoker and it does bother me sometimes,my eyes get to burning, and the room i play in has high ceilings. The thing i think about is all the smoke i have breathed in over the past 15 years playing pool and its effects down the road. What would i say to my smoker friends that wanted to play at my room if there was no smoking? I guess the alternative to that would be to have a smoking room and a non-smoking room, but then you would have to police that and risk making friends and newcomers mad. The peoples posts that i read on this forum seemed to understand the nonsmokers view and were sypathetic, but i am not sure my friends would be so understanding. I know of a couple of friends that said they were going to try it, so we will see how well it goes over.
Lewie

Doctor_D
04-03-2002, 06:54 AM
Good morning:

I was a pleasure to final catch up with you at the tournament in Manassas. See you at Corner Billiards!

Dr. D.

Vicki
04-03-2002, 11:08 AM
While I can appreciate your concern over upsetting your friends the bottom line is that most people are NON-smokers and most pool players are also NON-smokers. There is an option for smokers who go to non-smoking pool rooms... they can go outside for 5 mins to smoke... what option do non-smokers have??? Take the table outside..? The VAST majority are suffering for the filthy habbit of just a few people. That's stupid. Even the pro players who smoke have no problem taking a break to smoke away from the table during a match. I have been to nearly all of the major men's pro tournaments over the last 2 years and NONE of them allowed smoking in the tournament room (except the Derby City but only after 11 pm). You should really consider that most of the friends whose feelings you are worried about hurting are going to end up contracting lung cancer and you are just giving them another place to speed along the process. I have been to pool halls in San Francisco and Los Angeles where you cannot smoke inside any public places anywhere. Let me assure you... the bars are still packed and there was no shortage of pool players in the pool room. Non-smoking establishents are doing just fine.

Vicki
04-03-2002, 11:21 AM
I am sorry about your mom... It sucks to lose a parent when you are young... my daughter has really struggled at times. If more places would ban smoking then more people would quit. It gets to be a pain in the ass to go outside to smoke. And how about the idiots who are standing outside in the winter when the wind is blowing and they are shivering - just to cop a smoke. Even the most hardcore smokers are going to smoke less often if they have to go outside to do it. If smoking was banned it could save alot of 10 year olds parents from the same fate as your mom and my ex.

TomBrooklyn
04-03-2002, 02:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Vicki:</font><hr>...And how about the idiots who are standing outside in the winter when the wind is blowing and they are shivering - just to cop a smoke...<hr></blockquote>Vicki, I think smoking is a vile habit, and I don't discourage your displeasure with it. However, most smokers are not idiots, and many are highly intellegent. Your accusation is more despicable than smoking itself. <blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Vicki:</font><hr> I live in a very conservative county where smoking is prohibited in nearly every public place - except pool rooms and bars that serve liquor. Recently laws were passed that require a partitioned non-smoking section for places where smoking is still allowed - unfortunately, this law is not enforced so not followed.

What to do... become an activist to ban smoking in my local area.... Thank you for the motivation. <hr></blockquote> One of the few things I can think of that are worse than smoking is Government intrusion into the rights and private affairs of citizens. I am gratified that with the exception of your comments, the debate in this thread so far has not included support for laws being passed to prohibit smoking. The county you live in certainly is conservative, Borderline Communist might be a more accurate description. At least one redeeming feature however, is that they don't enforce all of their unconstitutional, liberty-trouncing edicts.

It should be everyones right to smoke or not. Every business owner should have the right to allow smoking or not in their establishment as they see fit. Every business should have the right to install smoke filters, smokeless ashtrays, or divide their rooms into smoking and non-smoking sections, or not, at their own discretion. And it should be every persons right to patronize, or not patronize, the businesses of their choice.

Interestingly, tabacco was an important commodity that provided income to the European pioneers that settled this country; virtually all of whom came here either to escape Government oppression and intrusion into their personal choices, as well as to benefit from the economy. Now, all should oppose, regardless of their like or dislike of smoking; the establishment of overbearing laws of the type that drove people out of their own countries to come here in the first place.


<font color=purple>Sidebar
Smoking can be injurious to ones health, but is even the choice of health more important than the choice of liberty? Forget not these venerable words that were uttered to the assembled representatives of the Great State of Virginia at an awful moment in this countries history, when Government's oppression had reached intolerable levels, and it prepared to enforce it's laws with force.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: :</font><hr>Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! Patrick Henry, 1775</font color=purple><hr></blockquote>

04-03-2002, 03:00 PM
I live in NJ and work in NYC.I haven't been able to find
a non-smoking billiard club anywhere in the metro area.
If anyone knows of a non-smoking club in the ny metro area
please let me know.

04-03-2002, 04:34 PM
This is my second reply to this subject. I want to add that I am for the banning of smoking inside public places. Probably because it makes sense it won't happen everywhere.

cheesemouse
04-03-2002, 04:56 PM
Tom,
I think what Vicki forgot to mention is that your liberties end where my nose begins

TomBrooklyn
04-03-2002, 04:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jim B:</font><hr> I want to add that I am for the banning of smoking inside public places.<hr></blockquote>By public places do you mean public buildings such as local, state and federal government offices, police stations, fire departments, and courthouses, and public schools and hospitals?

Would you include buildings owned by private individuals or companies that recieve federal subsidies, such as some schools, and transportation facilities that recieve government funding.

Would you include privately owned businesses that recieve payments from the government on behalf of their customers such as hospitals which recieve medicare payments?

Would you include privately owned businesses that are deemed to have a monopoly, therefore obligating the public to do business with them alone in their particular area of goods or services?

Or do you mean privately owned business bought and paid for by private citizens or companies that are open to the general public. Businesses whose owners wish to participate in the capitalist free enterprise system; whose livelihoods depend on the on their own entrepanurial skill and judgement. Businesses that recieve no public subsidies or assistance if they cannot profit on their own. Businesses which no person has any obligation or need to enter except by their own preference to do so?

bell
04-03-2002, 06:17 PM
Great rehtoric Tom. We will vist you in ICU.

stickman
04-03-2002, 06:36 PM
I respectfully submit, it sounded like she wanted to put her nose where it doesn't belong. A former smoker becoming an activist to ban smoking? I'm glad that she was able to quit, but she should remember that it was her decision. I respect businesses that don't want smoking in their establishments, but when someone wants to decide what I do in my own home, I consider it an invasion of privacy. I thought the topic was smoking in poolrooms.

cheesemouse
04-03-2002, 06:59 PM
Stickman,
Although Vicki's tone may irrated you I don't see where she advocates your not being allowed to do as you please in your home. My point was more directed to the present trend of banning smoking in public places. It appears that smoking where it may bother other people is not a constitutional right.

stickman
04-03-2002, 07:09 PM
I agree with that philosophy. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

"What to do... become an activist to ban smoking in my local area.... Thank you for the motivation." "If smoking was banned it could save alot of 10 year olds parents from the same fate as your mom and my ex."

Maybe I read something into the posts that wasn't intended. It doesn't indicate whether she intended to support banning in public places or banning altogether, but it sounds like she wants to save people from themselves.

Cuemage
04-03-2002, 07:13 PM
Tom,
I think ur gettin too technical here. All we are saying is that we're tired of breathing smoke. We both love pool, but our playing time is limited b/c 95% of pool halls/bars are huge smoke havens. Both Vicki &amp; I have lost close loved ones due to smoking. Allow us to vent without cryin for freedoms. We don't deny ur right to smoke. But we do have a right not to have to breath filthy air. I believe in live &amp; let live, but when the actions of others jeopardize my health, then I have to make a decision on if it's worth it. I believe this started with "show me a smoke-free room &amp; I'll show u a life-time member".

The Cuemage

TomBrooklyn
04-03-2002, 09:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: cheesemouse:</font><hr>It appears that smoking where it may bother other people is not a constitutional right. <hr></blockquote> Cheesemouse, smoking in privately owned establishments that serve the public is a constitutional right that has been illegally abrogated in a number of jurisdictions. Any local or State law banning smoking in a privately owned establishments is likely to be overturned on a constitutional basis when challenged; and I expect we'll see such a case on the agenda of the US Supreme Court within the next few years. I am surprised no one has challenged any of these laws yet.

The basis for the courts decision will be that no citizen has a right to a smoke free environment in a privately owned and operated business. The preference of the business owner is superior to the preference of any potential customers who can chose not to patronize the establishment whose smoking policies are not to their liking.

cheesemouse
04-03-2002, 09:54 PM
Tom,
I don't have a legal background but I do have an inordinate amount of commomsense. It tells me the smoking bans are legal or they would have already been contested by the food &amp; beverage industry which stood to lose the most but they passed.
I share your passion to not have governments messing with my stuff but we all make these little sacrifices, if you refuse to do so, you will be required to move to Montana /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Ken
04-03-2002, 11:05 PM
I don't think there's anything in the U S Constitution giving people the right to smoke. Women can vote, we can bear arms, make speeches, worship and even drink (thanks to the repeal of prohibition). I really don't think there's an amendment giving us the right to smoke.

The states have the right to prohibit anything they want as long as there is nothing giving that right to the people in the Constitution. It's called tyranny of the majority.

I'm as much against smoking as anyone but I would not support legislation to ban smoking in restaurants and poolrooms since I have the option to remain away from those sources of smoke. The states should confine themselves to public health problems regarding public smoking and since the nearest poolroom is 25 miles away the smoke doesn't present a health problem for me. I've been sick for over a week after attending a tournament there but that was due to my own stupidity. I could have stayed away.

The only possible justification I can think of for a smoking ban is that employees are forced to work in an unhealthy environment. If someone gets a job and then finds out that the smoke is too concentrated that person might be compelled to stay there rather than quit and look for another job. If you want to work in a poolroom then you're stuck.
Ken in CT

stickman
04-04-2002, 12:50 AM
Ken, I appreciate your considerate stance. I plan to try to quit smoking as soon as I see my doctor next Friday. I used Zyban once before and it worked, but I was unable to sleep. I'm unable to work now so sleep is not as big a problem. My defensiveness stems from my desire to decide for myself, what is best for me. Even though the right to bear arms is in the constitution, there are those that would have it repealed, and re-establish the prohibition of alcohol as well. These same types of good intentions lead to seatbelt laws and helmet laws. I won't take this discussion any further off track, I just wanted to explain my defensiveness. I understand peoples distaste for smoking, but think their concern should be contained to their personal exposure.

Tom_In_Cincy
04-04-2002, 11:42 PM
This is a old subject. The Newgroup rec.sport.billiard has had the subject beaten to death about once a year for the last 5 years and some times more than twice a year.

Bottom line.. for all involved is choice.

Your choice.. make it, and accept the results.

Constant complainers and whinners are more offensive to me than any foul oder. If all you have is words to throw at this subject, then you will never be good at pool.. cause you won't get the table time..

Bring me a problem without a solution, and you are doomed to live by mine.. your choice.

04-05-2002, 08:51 AM
April 5, 2002. The Associated Press. Albany, N.Y.--Physicians described DEATHS and DISEASES they see from secondhand smoke, as the state Medical Society announced an educational campaign yesterday about the dangers of breathing other people's smoke. The society also backed legislation that would further curb smoking in restaurants and workplaces....."We are here to mark the first time New York state physicians have joined together as a unified medical voice to speak out and promote public policies to protect people from the deadly effects of secondhand smoke and other tabacco-related illnesses," said Dr.Robert Hughes. The surgeon from Queensbury heads the state Medical Society's new Task Force on Tobacco....This is a small part of an article that is in today's newspaper. It contains words, put together by doctors, to help people.

Cuemage
04-05-2002, 07:45 PM
Thanks Jim...
Tom, I agree we disagree.
Thanks

The Cuemage

Tom_In_Cincy
04-06-2002, 12:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Cuemage:</font><hr> Thanks Jim...
Tom, I agree we disagree. Thanks The Cuemage <hr></blockquote>

Cuemage
I agree also.. just wish this subject would either get corrected or go away.. it just brings out emotions not needed in this forum... I am all in favor of smokeless everything.. but not by a law.. too many laws now that aren't enforced..

cuechick
04-06-2002, 08:01 AM
Tom,
I'm sorry but if we went by your argument then private buisnesses that depend on the publics patronidge would be able to do anything they want. Even if it was unsafe or unhealthy. The consumers only rights are to either go there or stay away. So a resturante would not have to follow any health guidlines, a chef could use dirty knifes and rotten meat, that's just too bad for us.
In your perfect world, right?
Smoking is a HEALTH HAZARD to ALL!!! This is a proven fact, and you will never convince me that is not. I DO have a right, as a consumer to smoke free enviorment in any public place, because this is a health issue.You have the right to smoke but not to inflict me with bodily harm. There are alternatives for you, none for me in a pool room that allows smoking, and I feel that is wrong.
Every buisness must provide a safe enviorment, meet certain goverment heath &amp; safety standards...I doubt anyone in this forum including yourself would want to eat from a kitchen that had not been inspected and cleared.

stickman
04-06-2002, 10:39 AM
Just for the record, I respect those businesses, employers, and home owners that wish to disallow smoking in their places. I do however get my dander up when people talk of banning smoking. IMO, I believe some folks take this aurguement to the extreme. I see a parallel to the drinking issue. I don't drink, but I'm not necessarily opposed to drinking, as long as someone who has over-indulged doesn't infringe on my right to a happy and peaceful existance. If someone repeatedly becomes drunk and disorderly, arrest them. I someone smokes in a no smoking establishment, fine them or whatever. If you patronize a business that allows smoking and it offends you, gather others of the same opinion and petition the business to either disallow smoking or provide a no smoking section. If that doesn't work, boycott them. If, as it's suggested, we smokers are such a small minority, the businesses that allow smoking could not survive.

If I'm not blowing smoke in your face, allow me my happy and peaceful existance.

Ken
04-06-2002, 10:53 AM
cuechick, I don't understand why you buy into the notion that people have the right to smoke. The ninth amendmant mentions non-enumerated rights and that includes the right to privacy. I think that could give someone the right to smoke in his home, but not in public. One of the first things the smoking advocates scream is that nobody can tell them what they can't do in their homes and they may be correct. If their non-smoking spouse agrees then that person may be subjected to the habit as well. There's also the right to raise children as one pleases. Does that give one the right to subject them to the smoke? I doubt it.

The right to privacy might include smoking by yourself in public. If someone is sitting by himself in a park smoking I doubt that someone could sit down next to him and say "I object to you smoking near me". What constitutes"privacy"? Does your little space in a restaurant or poolroom constitute privacy? Probably not.

On the other hand, if I want to operate a restaurant or poolroom where one of the conditions under which I will provide you service is that you agree to tolerate smoking, I should be free to do so in my private building. Blanket smoking bans in establishments may well be unconstitutional. At most, I should be required to post a sign to that effect where it can be seen before entering the building.
Ken in CT

shojingod
04-06-2002, 03:39 PM
Drinking in moderation is not a health concern.

You cannot equate smoking with drinking or eating fatty foods. The simple matter is smoking is not only unhealthy to the user but also to the all individuals exposed. That the difference. You chose to drink or to eat to much then it affects only your health. You chose to smoke it affects you and others.

04-06-2002, 04:11 PM
I support your right to play in a smoke-free pool hall. I would expect your support for my right to play in a hall that allows smoking. The more you allow government to make your decisions, the more decisions they will make. It should be the establishments choice as to whether to allow smoking or not in their own establishment, not yours and diffently not some government offical who has never and will never patronize the establishment. If we are condemming health hazards, lets consider automobiles which are way up on the list of killing. Maybe they should ban alcohol again, it is definately a health hazard. I for one thinks the government has enough control of my life. Jim R.

stickman
04-06-2002, 04:58 PM
Quote shojingod "You chose to drink or to eat to much then it affects only your health." end Quote

What about all the people killed by drunken drivers? The wifes beaten by drunken husbands? The violent crimes committed by alcoholics?

It appears obvious to me that very few opinions are likely to be changed by this discussion, so this is my final post regarding the subject. As I've said, I'm not opposed to drinking, I'm planning on quiting smoking very soon. But it is my decision, and don't think the government needs to become more involved in making more decisions for us. They already look enough like big brother as it is.

shojingod
04-06-2002, 07:59 PM
Yes there are negative things that these products can do but those factures are only seen in extreme cases. General moderate use does not cause these problems. Smoking on the other hand has no good boundaries.

Are we going to ban drinking because some cannot control themselves. NO

Are we going to ban fat foods because some cannot control themselve. NO

Why? Because moderate usage does not cause any ill effects.
Everything to the extreme will have some bad reprecussions.

Smoking even if it is a personal choice is bad in all forms. It hurts the individual using it and the one beside him.

We are not banning your ability to smoke just the location you chose to smoke. Everybody is in arms because of this legislation like it's revolutionary. It's not. Business right now must follow health and safety guidelines by law. These new modification are only additions to these laws. These laws are created so that the individual that frequent a business to issure he is in a safe and healthy environment.

When you as an owner desides to service the public, buy a businness license and get zoning permits and so forth you take the responsability based on the license you purchased or applied for to service the public in a environment that will be open to the people of that community, safe and follow regional guidelines. If you do not accept that responsability then you are not fit to do business in that community and your business license will be revoked.

04-07-2002, 03:21 PM
You seem pretty knowledgeable, maybe you can answer a question for me? What does wearing a shirt and shoes have to do with health issues in a resturant? I have no clue, who this law is suppose to protect. This is just one of many laws we accept, that if you think about them, really don't make any sense. The whole thing is, we have plenty of laws. What we're losing is personal choices. Someone on this thread tried to compare letting business owners choose whether to allow smoking or not, to giving resturant owners the choice of having a sanitary kitchen or not. This is not a valid comparision. The minute a non-smoker walks into a business, they know if people are smoking or not. The condition of the kitchen or the quality of the food is a hidden factor. What you are doing is writting blanket laws against smokers, thereby making them 2nd class citizens. It's kind of like what they did to African Americans and Native Americans for so long. I just don't like the government making all my choices for me. If I don't want to be around smokers, it's my choice. If a busness decides to allow smoking, it's their choice. If that means they won't get your business, again it's their choice. It's their loss. Until the sale of tabacco is outlawed, it should remain their choice. Jim R.

Drake
04-07-2002, 04:22 PM
I quit smoking 3 years ago. So, I can see both sides of the story. The smoke filled pool room never bothered me until I stopped smoking. NOW, The first thing I do after playing is change clothes because I smell like an ash tray. Is it safe to say that the majority of pool players are smokers?? Yes, I think so. Therefore, I believe every pool room should have a smoke eater for every 1600 square feet!! And a couple of tables that are non smoking would be a plus!!......Drake.

04-07-2002, 07:03 PM
That seems like a reasonable request. Jim R.

04-07-2002, 09:31 PM
Alfie and others in the Atlanta area...

Twain's in Decatur (404-373-0063) has 20 G.C.'s w/ Simonis...10 in the smoking area, and 10 in the Non-smoking area. I haven't been there recently, but it was no problem getting a table in either room. Their last call for the night is:
Sun/Mon...12:30am
Tues-Thurs...1:30am
Fri/Sat...2:30am

Beer, wine, full bar and food. Friendly place and never packed-out.
They deserve your patronage...
Tim

04-07-2002, 09:41 PM
I'll second that motion.

In a perfect world, every public place should have effective smoke eaters. If they worked as well as they would in a perfect world, then there would be no reason for this thread... and no complainers on either side.:-)

While smokers may be in the minority in general, I sometimes wonder if I'm the only non-smoker in the PH where we play league. Fortunately, I don't have to leave the house to play/practice.

Tim~~"Can't we all just get along..."

shojingod
04-07-2002, 09:52 PM
The t-shirt and shoes thing is based on the possibility of burns from hot food as well as cuts from broken glass as well as mouth bacteria being transfert from spit contaminated food entering any possible open wound below the feet.

Smoking was allowed in business's before we knew the bad effects. That is why we had smoking in business's for so long and it was not legislated before.

As years go by we learn things and must adapt the laws to serve the public in a way that will make the environment safe. Remember asbestos.

We cannot say; "Well it's always been that way. Why should we change since you know it's smoking. Why can just stay away and avoid the business's that allow smoking."

Then you are segregating your business to smoking and only smoking, you are also exposing your staff to an environment that is not safe for there health.

Your are given a permit to opporate a business. You just cannot do what you want. You never could! This I know from experience because I help manage a entertainment room with tables. When you think you can do what you want you find out very fast how you must follow very strict guidelines. You don't follow then they shut you down.

They are not making smokers second class citizen. Smoker have the chose and the means to curve there habit. Nobody is forcing them to smoke. There are so many alternative to obtain nicotine and you can smoke at home.

There is a difference between a business and a dwelling. It's very clear. Each have there own laws and regulations.

Here is an example when it comes to dwellings.

You buy a spot of land in a city. You own that spot of land. RIGHT. You cannot dig on the spot of land until you get permission from the gas and electric and telephone company. You cannot build because you must first obtain a building license from the local city. They must verify you building plans to the size of the lot to see if it follows building codes for height and size and spacing. On the land YOU OWN. You want to put and addition to your house then you must apply for another building license. Welcome to reality. Can you do whatever you want in reality. NO!

example for business:

everything for dwelling plus the determination of commercial zoning. If it is not zoned commercial then you must apply with the city for zoning. ON THE LAND YOU OWN. Your plans must have two entrances. Once you builded the business you must have a fire expector to determine client limit and expect your fire alarms. You must then apply for a business license, alcohol license, food license. You must follow local health and safety codes regarding ventilation, heating, washrooms, kitchen,etc, etc. You don't follows these laws. Guess what they lock up your doors and give you fines on the business YOU OWN AND YOU BUILT and if you do not fix the problem they revoke you business license. You go into business with no license the city bring your to court and you get either a HUGE fine or jail time. This is reality. Can you do whatever you want. NO!

Why do people think they can do whatever they want on there business and property surprise the hell out of me. They sure don't know the reality of the matter.

It's more the non-smokers made to be second class citizen in the night life industries. To preserve our health we would have to isolate ourselves from all social recreational services because they been claimed by the smoking population.

You are confused between what is legal and legal under provisions.

Here is an example:

LEGAL: lettuce, milk, eggs, vcr, camcorder, etc. etc.

LEGAL UNDER PROVISIONs: cigarette, alcohol, guns, fireworks, explosives

LEGAL UNDER PROVISIONs means that these product are legal to use only under certain guidelines.

CIGARETTES: illegal to sell to minors, illegal to use in certain places
ALCOHOL: illegal to sell to minors, illegal to use in public unless license, must be licensed to sell, must be licensed to serve