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07-01-2003, 09:44 PM
I just started playing in a VNEA league. I figured I would get better playing other players than just my buddy. Tonight something happened that just disgusted me. My opponent played a great safe on me and went and sat down. This was an excellent shot; I even asked him a question as I walked up to the table since I still getting familiar with the rules. The only possible shot I had was a two-cushion bank to the five in the side. I was doubtful I was going to make it. But I called it and pointed my cue at the 5. I was tied up and the only way to shoot was straight ahead of me and he was sitting behind me. I bend over line up on the cue; come forward, and then he jumps in my ear and asks what is the shot. I am a jumpy person and this total screws my shot. I end up sinking the 8 and loosing the game with every ball of mine on the table. I was mad as heck and the only thing I heard was it was within his right to ask cause it is in the rules. That is understandable, but it wasnít like I walked up and just started to shoot. What happened to playing with honor and ethics? When I refused the handshake because I told him I didnít shake hand with cheaters he was offended and said ďI didnít know you were going to shoot that fastĒ. This is a guy who will take 3 minutes to look over a simple cut and use chalk like he sculpting the tip about 20 times. Does crap like this happen often in leagues? I donít mind loosing (donít like it) and I get mad at myself when I sink the eight unintentionally, but I prefer not to have help doing it, and I would never talk to someone as they are shooting, itís just wrong. In my book, thatís cheating. If it were me I would make damn sure I knew my opponents shot as he was bending over at the latest and not as he was moving the stick.

07-01-2003, 10:02 PM
The title should have been league rule, not the league, there are some good people I have meet.

Steve Lipsky
07-01-2003, 10:25 PM
Tx,

At this year's BCA tournament in Vegas, I kinda did the same thing to my opponent. So here's my version, and maybe you'll see that your opponent was not trying to shark you. (Don't get me wrong; maybe he was.)

My opponent was at the table, and he left himself close to an object ball. He's walking around the table, occasionally getting down to bend over the shot. Now, in my mind, he has to jack up a little to avoid the foul. But it looks like he's just aiming it, and not ready to shoot. Finally he gets down and takes some more practice strokes, but he's not jacked up.

I stopped him here, and asked to get a ref. He was upset, and his team was also. They thought I was trying to shark him. Here's the thing, though. I had made up my mind to give him the benefit of the doubt, that he would eventually jack up. I am not one to call the ref over unless it is absolutely necessary. And this match was to get in 5th/6th place, so I knew these guys could play. I kept expecting him to jack up a little, but when I realized he wasn't going to, I had no choice.

The reason I didn't call the ref in the first place was because with just a little jack-up, the shot would not have even been close to a foul. I think it's more of a shark to call the ref in that tournament - it takes like 2 solid minutes before they come over to your table, and then they stand over you, watching you like a hawk.

I realize now that I should have told him from the beginning, "Look, just give me a call when you're ready." But hindsight is 20/20.

So anyway, that's the story from another point of view. Is it possible your opponent just thought you were lining up a potential shot, but then when he saw you getting ready to shoot, stopped you at the last moment?

- Steve

07-02-2003, 01:59 AM
To: Tx shooter, you'all need to simmer down a bit, I know you've been had and sharked and are steamed up and have a right to be. One bad apple don't spoil the entire barrel. There are sharkers on a lot of teams who will do anything to upset you to win.
When I was a team captain I took my apa team to Vegas and we were warned a team from the NE was a sharking team, everyone on the roster were shady. They had been thrown out the year before. Right off the bat they started on us and I went to the desk and asked for a observer to watch the match. It got so bad, they stepped in and threw them out for the 2nd year in a row. When you get into a bad situation seek help.
You can also try and police your own division or group. I would have gone over after my match and tried to talk to the other team captain when the other player was not around and asked him nicely if he approved of that and if he didn't could he ask him to stop it in the future.

You have to expect when you are about to pull the trigger on the 8 ball somebody on the other side is going to jump up, another is going to ask you on your backswing what pocket it is going into.

You have to focus, develop concentration so deep, that when your in your follow through the entire team can leap up and scream, the waitress can drop a tray of beers behind you, and somebody can shoot off a gun and you do not look up or let any of it affect you. You make the shot, see the 8 fall, then look to see if somebody shot you or not.

Sharking is one of the cancers of the game, it will never go away, you must learn how to deal with it and no longer let it affect you. Yes, it's easy for me to pontificate and it's easier said than done. You went out to spend a nice evening and you let a jerk ruin it for you. Next time ignore the jerk is my advice. The game is supposed to be fun. You are supposed to come home happy and not infuriated. Don't blame the league, blame the other team captain. I would never let any of my players shark. If we could not beat you fair & square, I would not want to win cheating or sharking you, to me it would be a dirty hollow victory. Fast Larry

bluewolf
07-02-2003, 05:58 AM
Agree with lots said. Sharks everywhere, cheaters everwhere and lots of good folks too. I used to be disgusted with the league because I was focussing on the bad and the sandbaggers etc.

OK to be mad, just let it roll off of you and plan for next time. In our league, before someone shoots, they ask for a chair to be moved, a player to move back or whatever space they need to be able to make their best shot.

I notice these things because I learn from it and there are ways to keep from getting sharked.

We have a guy in our league who is a very defense player but in reality he is using it as a shark. Then he takes 3 min to shoot each shot, adds an hour to the match. Things like that get around and nobody in the league likes him. I am sure this will be dealt with sooner or later.

Sorry you did get sharked like that though.

bw

DoomCue
07-02-2003, 06:08 AM
Welcome to the world of leagues. There are league players who don't believe the rules are there to be guidelines for playing the game, they believe the rules should be used to manipulate the outcome of a game. For instance, in your case, the guy probably intentionally sharked you, because it was well within the rules to do so. I've seen people catch the cue ball as it's falling in the pocket in another league, which was against the rules, and the opponent called it, so he could win the game. It was already BIH! Win the game at the table, not with the rule book. I've seen people shoot 8-balls with the ball in the jaws of the pocket, forget to mark it, make it, and lose because the opponent chooses to use the rule book to win the game. I saw a new APA player use a jump cue against a long-time veteran of the APA. Did the vet say anything? Nope. He let the kid shoot with the cue, then called a foul. I've seen people shoot the wrong group of balls, and their opponents don't tell them it's the wrong group until AFTER the shot. To me, it's dishonorable and unethical to do that. THE GAME SHOULD BE PLAYED ON THE TABLE, not in the rule book. There are rules specifying sportsmanship, but very rarely does anybody suffer the consequences of unsportsmanlike behavior. Leagues are not life and death, but you'd be amazed at how many people take it so seriously, going so far as to memorize the rule book so they can use the rules to win games, instead of using their playing ability to win games.

I played in the Pot O'Gold league until they went bankrupt (don't get me started on that), and I just started APA this session. I'm a 7 (which adds to my disgust of leagues), and after only a month of being in the APA, I want to quit. I'm sick of the "win with the rule book" mentality and I've become fed up with the whole system. If the "Equalizer" handicap system is so great, how come the same teams from Chicago are always in Vegas? Makes me wonder about "equality".... Also, members spend a lot of money to be in the leagues. Who gets the money? Does a high percentage return to the members? Nope. I wonder if Terry Bell is a billionaire yet....

bluewolf
07-02-2003, 07:21 AM
We are fortunate in our area, for the B player or good C players to have a non-handicapped 9 ball event once a week.There are some A players too, which I would imagine would be good for the game of the B. We also have a handicapped one, but it does not seem to have as much sandbagging and stuff as the league.It is much smaller than apa and run tighter,ie more fair with no nonsense. Most of the players there are very nice. They are all better than I am but it is fun to go ocassionally, anyway, if nothing else to learn by seeing what that player did well that I did not and to watch good players.

I let the league get to me for awhile. Ocasionally still have lapses of complaining, but it does not last long anymore.

In my league, lots have been playing each other for 5 years(the sl6-sl7) so it is like seeing friends too and then also get to play.

It is not perfect but it can be fun. I let the cheaters and the ones obsessed with winning at the expense of sportsmanship drive me crazy for awhile. I finally let it go,at least for the most part. I try not to pay much attention to the sandbaggers and the sharks and look instead at my improvement, even if I do not win.

OTOH- if a person continues to be eat up by all of this, maybe a different type of playing is best, as popcorn said to me several times.

Once I was able to do that, at least most of the time, I started having fun at APA, in spite of its flaws.

Nobody is perfect. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Laura

JPB
07-02-2003, 07:47 AM
I have never seen a post here where a league sounded like fun. One of the reasons people choose to play individual sports like golf or pool is that they get to play for themselves. For that reason, leagues in individual sports are kind of dumb. Also, the people who are most attracted to league play are immature people and rules mavens. That's the nature of the beast. I joined a golf club this year and decided to play the twilight league since my partner sponsors a team and I wanted to meet some people. What a mistake. The level of maturity and income, etc.... at a golf club is a lot higher than for a pool league. And it totally sucks. Some people are fine and I like the guys on my team, but the whole league bit is just stupid and a lot of the people you have to play are just horrible people. Total obnoxious tools. I don't want to ever play again. I played a pool league when I was like 21 or 22 and could not believe how stupid people were about it. The last event I played there was damn near a gunfight. The league mentality is a perpetual problem. It won't get better. And you aren't getting as much competition as if you just sought out matches or individual tournaments. Pool is an individual sport. Keep it that way. Leagues are for children; adults should be past needing the group support, etc... How much are you going to learn playing handicapped bar table 8 ball in short sets against people like this? Nothing and you will just have a miserable time. Not that I'm against leagues or anything. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

cycopath
07-02-2003, 08:58 AM
Excellent post DoomCue, right on target. The rules are a guide to prevent problems, not create them.

SPetty
07-02-2003, 10:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote txshooter:</font><hr> But I called it and pointed my cue at the 5. <hr /></blockquote>I think it's apparent that he didn't hear or understand you call your shot.

I've felt forced to ask my opponent what they're shooting at at inopportune times because they do not clearly (or at all) call their shot. They just expect you to guess what they're shooting. If you don't ask and they shoot and if anything falls, they'll claim that of course that's what they were shooting at!

Sorry it had to happen that way. I don't believe your opponent was intentionally sharking you, and crap like this doesn't happen often in leagues.

tateuts
07-02-2003, 10:57 AM
At the risk of upsetting everyone, I'm sorry, but nobody has ever made me miss a shot.

I don't care if there are naked ladies dancing on my table and the fire sprinklers are going off - it's me shooting and my responsibility to sink the ball.

People are going to make faux-paus in amatuer sports. You can't let that ruin your fun. By allowing someone to get to you, then declining their handshake, even if he was sharking you (which I sincerely doubt), you allowed his actions, which were not necessarily intentional, to derail your game.

What makes me miss shots is mental exhaustion from listing to the myriad of excuses from other players on why they got beat.

Chris

griffith_d
07-02-2003, 11:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> At the risk of upsetting everyone, I'm sorry, but nobody has ever made me miss a shot.

I don't care if there are naked ladies dancing on my table and the fire sprinklers are going off - it's me shooting and my responsibility to sink the ball.

People are going to make faux-paus in amatuer sports. You can't let that ruin your fun. By allowing someone to get to you, then declining their handshake, even if he was sharking you (which I sincerely doubt), you allowed his actions, which were not necessarily intentional, to derail your game.

What makes me miss shots is mental exhaustion from listing to the myriad of excuses from other players on why they got beat.

Chris



<hr /></blockquote>

I agree,...no one can make you miss except yourself or someone bumping into you as you shoot.

You could do jazzercise in front of me while I shoot and it would not bother me.

Griff

eg8r
07-02-2003, 11:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
even if he was sharking you (which I sincerely doubt), <hr /></blockquote> Surely you do not "sincerely doubt" someone would shark on purpose do you? You might be giving A LOT of league players too much credit.

eg8r

eg8r
07-02-2003, 11:17 AM
I disagree. If someone does not have he absolute mental concentration on a shot and another steps up and gets in their ear and starts talking, that person shooting might miss due to distraction.

Just because you are able to block everything out, does not mean that everyone else is able to do it also.

eg8r

07-02-2003, 11:18 AM
Well I will have to just get used to people coming from my blind side as I am shooting and asking questions in my ear as I am bringing the stick forward. Was all my fault. I should have known he was not paying attention as I was making my call. Note: have eye transplant in back of head so you can see if opponent is watching the game and not talking to the girl sitting next to him. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

cuechick
07-02-2003, 11:23 AM
I have to agree with these last spetty and tateus, ultimatly it's only me at the table and my fault if I let an opponants actions derail me. I am not familar with Vnea rules but if they are anything like BCA, you must call shots that are not obvious, and a kick is never obvious, you did call it, but it is also a rule in BCA that YOU ARE responsible for making sure your opponant KNOWS what your calling.
I always make eye contact and make sure I get an confirmation from them when I call a shot like that.
I have had opponants motion with out a glance my way when calling a shot, and often I am not even sure what they have called.
In the sitiutaiton you were in, when intereurpted in the middle of the shot, I'd get up and 'regroup'... esp since as you admit youself, you rattle easy.
League play is all about gaining experiance, and as someone else mentioned, these are amatuers and can not be held to the same standard as pros. In the end you will learn and gain much needed experiance, you'll never get by playing your buddies. As Martha Stewart would say, it's a good thing...
/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

SPetty
07-02-2003, 11:24 AM
Hi DoomCue,

Wow, pool players playing by the rules. hahahaha

The general rule of all pool playing is "agree on the rules before you start". In league play and elsewhere, they play by "the APA rules" or "the BCA rules" or whatever other rules. Everyone is agreeing to play by the same set of rules.

How do you know how to play the game if you donít play by the rules? How do you know which rules you want to enforce and which rules you donít want to enforce?

Imagine, a pool player "going so far as to memorize the rule book"!!!

HAHAHAHA Ė thanks for the laugh, DoomCue.

Steve Lipsky
07-02-2003, 11:27 AM
Tx, the best thing to do is to make sure your opponent sees you when you are calling a complicated shot.

Another thing to do is to volunteer to get a ref for yourself if you will play a shot that looks close. I usually say something like, "This is going to be close... want to get a ref?" If my opponent in the BCA had done that, the whole mess could have been avoided.

These two things will stop 99% of the interruptions just before you pull the trigger.

- Steve

griffith_d
07-02-2003, 11:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> I disagree. If someone does not have he absolute mental concentration on a shot and another steps up and gets in their ear and starts talking, that person shooting might miss due to distraction.

Just because you are able to block everything out, does not mean that everyone else is able to do it also.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Granted, not everyone can do it, so if you cannot block it out, do not shoot until you are ready,..then proceed.

Perhaps, if someone stops you and ask to check the shot ahead of time, after you already called it, then ask that person,.."did you not hear me call the shot", so as to clear up any question of intentional sharking.

Then when all is said, then shoot. I can be unnerving for someone to ask you something the exact second you pull the trigger.

Griff

Perk
07-02-2003, 11:31 AM
Talk about someone making you miss a shot? Anyone sick of the Tiger LOOK that came from the camera flash? or comment in the stands? And it ruins his whole round?

Its unfortunate that things like this happen. In a pool league format, I can vouch that you learn things about people, teams, organizations, bars etc that are not the best, but you learn to work around that. I have watched people play dirty pool against the worst player on my team just to win a game, well I will be damn sure that that individual wont get a legitimate shot when I play him. He is now labeled a dirty player.

It can be unfortunate if its in a championship setting, ie. Vegas finals, city finals, or any other time that you wont get a chance to get even. I just play the game and take my knocks to help my team win.

For the person that claimed that pool is an individual sport along with mentioning golf, I dont think you have played in productive environments in either. It can be a great feeling for a strong player in both to help out a team or be a part of something bigger than if they were playing by themselves. What about a major money scramble in golf? It takes 4 to play. Or a team tournament 3 or 5 man teams? Ever watch the Patriots Cup? Mosconi Cup? Ryder Cup?

Good luck in the next league/team event, they can be fun and entertaining, as well as a learning experience. Just take people for what they are, and dont let it piss ya off too much... /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

tateuts
07-02-2003, 11:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote txshooter:</font><hr> Well I will have to just get used to people coming from my blind side as I am shooting and asking questions in my ear as I am bringing the stick forward. Was all my fault. I should have known he was not paying attention as I was making my call. Note: have eye transplant in back of head so you can see if opponent is watching the game and not talking to the girl sitting next to him. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Tx,

Main thing is to keep your cool and enjoy yourself. Take it easy, man! You had a little time to re-compose yourself and you should have. I don't know about you, but I find those two rail kick shots a little troublesome myself. Forgive and forget, life goes on, turn the other cheek. Have a drink on me!

A few weeks ago I was playing a match and I could see a player was lining up on a difficult cut shot at the table next to me. I could tell that I would be in her peripheral vision if I approached my shot. So I stopped playing and stood still and waited for her to shoot. She missed. She looked back at me and said she missed because she could tell that I stopped playing and was "lurking" behind her.

Here's another one. My buddy is playing a player half his speed nine-ball and giving the guy three games on the wire in a race to 7. They're even at 3-3. The guy keeps giving my friend "slug" racks. My friend breaks and the rack is so crappy he fails to drive 4 balls to the cushion. They guy calls a foul on him! My friend is so pissed off he loses the match. My friend came over and told me what happened. I said "next time tell him to rack them tight." I played the guy the next week and had to give him 4 games on the wire. I broke once and the rack was bad. The next time he was racking I said "please make sure the rack is tight". The racks were just fine after that and I beat him 7-6.

Once I was playing a guy. Between racks I said, sincerely "that was a beautiful run out". He lost the match and accused me of sharking him with my compliment.

Folks, lighten up!

Chris

CrispyFish
07-02-2003, 12:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr>Main thing is to keep your cool and enjoy yourself. Take it easy, man! You had a little time to re-compose yourself and you should have. I don't know about you, but I find those two rail kick shots a little troublesome myself. Forgive and forget, life goes on, turn the other cheek. Have a drink on me! <hr /></blockquote>
While I think you're absolutely right that we should all do our best to stay cool at the table, there's still a line to be drawn *somewhere* isn't there? Personally, I'd be pretty peeved if my opponent jumped at me when I was in mid-stroke. Wouldn't you?

tateuts
07-02-2003, 01:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CrispyFish:</font><hr> [While I think you're absolutely right that we should all do our best to stay cool at the table, there's still a line to be drawn *somewhere* isn't there? Personally, I'd be pretty peeved if my opponent jumped at me when I was in mid-stroke. Wouldn't you? <hr /></blockquote>

I would be mad if I was certain it was on purpose, or the distraction was so flagrant that it caused me to miss while in the process of actually stroking the shot (like "during a golfers backswing"). None of this is evident here.

I hate to admit it, but more than likely I would be laughing to myself thinking "woah, is this guy clueless. What a clod. I must make him suffer for his folly by watching me run out time and time again".

I also have my own personal arsenal of intimidation tactics that I can unleash if provoked. I can't share these here, but they are subtle and effective. I learned them from my wife.

Chris

DoomCue
07-02-2003, 01:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> Hi DoomCue,

Wow, pool players playing by the rules. hahahaha

The general rule of all pool playing is "agree on the rules before you start". In league play and elsewhere, they play by "the APA rules" or "the BCA rules" or whatever other rules. Everyone is agreeing to play by the same set of rules.

How do you know how to play the game if you donít play by the rules? How do you know which rules you want to enforce and which rules you donít want to enforce?

Imagine, a pool player "going so far as to memorize the rule book"!!!

HAHAHAHA Ė thanks for the laugh, DoomCue.

<hr /></blockquote>
Hi SPetty,

Good to know that you have a sense of humor. In between your chuckles, I suggest you re-read my post. You only read what you wanted to read. You chose to take out of context just a few words. Let me put them back in context so you might be able to understand my point. The full quote was, "Leagues are not life and death, but you'd be amazed at how many people take it so seriously, going so far as to memorize the rule book so they can use the rules to win games, instead of using their playing ability to win games ." The important part, which you ignored, has been bolded.

My point, which you apparently missed, even though it was capitalized in my previous post, was that the game should be played on the table, not in the rule book. There are plenty of players who memorize rule books, looking for that obscure rule which will give them an easy victory if their opponent doesn't know about it (see George Brett, pine tar). That type of mentality is disturbing, because it means the player has forgotten the PURPOSE of the rules in the first place. This is yet another example of our litigious society. If people used common sense instead of loopholes or rule-bending, this world would be a much better place, and everything would be cheaper. But I digress....

Of course there are rules. They are to be used as guidelines - there must be something to define the game itself. However, instead of using technicalities to win games, which is what so many league players try to do, I'm only suggesting those types of players exercise SPORTSMANSHIP, which is an often-overlooked section of rule books (but it is in there). In tennis, the Umpire is there to make rulings. Yesterday at Wimbledon, an Umpire missed a call and a player corrected him, even though it meant losing the point. That's a shining example of sportsmanship, and even though the player lost the point, he gained something in the eyes of everybody watching: RESPECT and DIGNITY.

So many people lose sight of what leagues are about, and they're not about rules, or winning, or losing, or stressing over playing a city tournament, or any of that crap. Leagues are meant for people to get together with a common interest (pool) in order to pass the time, have fun, and enjoy their common interest. Introduce competition, and suddenly, people forget about their common interest, they just want to win, win, win, no matter the cost. It's as if they've suddenly become vampires, and losing a league match is a stake to the heart. That mentality is utterly ridiculous, and unfortunately, all too common. IMHO, that type of thinking demonstrates a lack of pride, honor, self-dignity, and self-respect.

-djb

CrispyFish
07-02-2003, 01:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr>I would be mad if I was certain it was on purpose, or the distraction was so flagrant that it caused me to miss while in the process of actually stroking the shot (like "during a golfers backswing"). None of this is evident here.<hr /></blockquote>
Maybe I misunderstood. I thought he said his opponent spoke to him while he was moving the cuestick forward. If that's not the case then I agree with you wholeheartedly. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I hate to admit it, but more than likely I would be laughing to myself thinking "woah, is this guy clueless. What a clod. I must make him suffer for his folly by watching me run out time and time again".<hr /></blockquote>
The way I see it, if somebody's sharking (intentionally or not), they're wasting energy that would be better spent shooting pool. That gives me an edge! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I also have my own personal arsenal of intimidation tactics that I can unleash if provoked. I can't share these here, but they are subtle and effective. I learned them from my wife.

Chris<hr /></blockquote>
LOL. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

RedHell
07-02-2003, 02:23 PM
tx,

I'm a VNEA player and what happend to you is not uncommon. Tho I do not use sharking, I will let my opponent take all the time he wants to make a call. If it reaches the point where I believe he's about to shoot and he didn't make a call, I will stop him and ask what he's shooting.

Obviously, in your case you had made the call, but your opponent didn't get it. I try to always make sure my opponent knows what I'm shooting to avoid being disrupted while playing the shot.

As for ref on a shot, as soon as there is chances of a foul, I call a ref on a shot. Simply because in VNEA rules, if you call a foul and your opponent disagree he has the last word, and I know that I'm not always playing against the most honnest people.

League play is fun, it allows you to meet new players and make new friends. It shouldn't get to you to a point where you are frustrated of playing. Keep it a game and enjoy it.

As for sharking and keeping control over it. I have a little story that I find interesting. On a league night my team was playing a small bar where most of the players were over 50 years old. They weren't great shooters, but they learn their craft the old ways, where sharking was part of the game and accepted.

Being the oldest on my team (I'm 33) and having most of my team mates under 25, it was very frustrating to them when that team started pulling all the tricks in the book to put them off.

After the first round, they were spending more time looking at the other team's behaviour and complaining about it then they were concentrating on the game. We tied that night and I came out with a 50, why would you ask. Cause I had been thru that before and didn't let them rattle me.

When my opponent was standing in my shot, I just politely asked him to move away. When they were racking me loose racks, I was simply asking them to re-rack or offer myself to do it. If they were asking me what I was shooting, I just got up and call my shots, even if it was obvious. In the meantime my team mates were letting them get in their heads and had a bad night.

It's all about how you react, not what they do.

SPetty
07-02-2003, 02:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> It's all about how you react, not what they do. <hr /></blockquote>Tap, Tap, Tap!

Keith Talent
07-02-2003, 03:43 PM
Amen, JPB. I once was curious about leagues. Have read more than enough nightmare stories about them here and am definitely cured. Guess they may be good for pool overall, but there are lots better ways to get some competition, I think. Is it all about that lusted-after trip to Vegas? Last I checked, it's about the cheapest long-distance ticket from anywhere.

Too bad, txshooter ... sounds like you've got many miles of rough road ahead of you. It'll toughen you up, if it doesn't drive you insane.

JPB
07-02-2003, 08:37 PM
For the person that claimed that pool is an individual sport along with mentioning golf, I dont think you have played in productive environments in either. It can be a great feeling for a strong player in both to help out a team or be a part of something bigger than if they were playing by themselves. What about a major money scramble in golf? It takes 4 to play. Or a team tournament 3 or 5 man teams? Ever watch the Patriots Cup? Mosconi Cup? Ryder Cup?

Good luck in the next league/team event, they can be fun and entertaining, as well as a learning experience. Just take people for what they are, and dont let it piss ya off too much... /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>


That would be me. What are some of the worst examples of sportsmanship in golf lately? How about the Americans at Brookline when Justin Leonard holed his putt? That was awful. I don't think it was planned, but the whole rah rah team bit that has no real part in golf came into play. How about Pat Bradley and her atrocious conduct after her Sorenstam's chip in the Solheim Cup? That pretty much ruined or should have ruined any reputation she had. And what about the idiot Vijay at the President's Cup? "Tiger Who?" on his caddy's hat. Vijay is a no class bum for the most part, but even he would never have tried that in a real tournament. And Hal Sutton calling out Tiger when he was appointed captain of the Ryder Cup team. Tiger is a hell of a big guy to play in the Ryder Cup under Sutton. He should do a weiskopf and schedule a hunting trip for that week. Part of it is attitude. I took up golf as a kid to ensure I would have control over my participation. I took up pool later and felt the same way. It is ME playing when I want to, with whom I want to. And I did play on golf teams in high school and actually had some fun. Won a city championship as a team even. But the team aspect caused some problems a couple of times. But I preferred the individual tournaments. The team aspect was sort of screwy. Of course, if you enter a tournament you can draw jerks, etc.... but it's different. That I will deal with. But to sit around drinking and at the mercy of some captain and not getting to play a whole lot really, no thanks. Some people like it, I don't. The people who are attracted to that aspect of the sport are more often obnoxious. Not all of them of course. Not even most I guess. But leagues attract and support a certain mentality that I find annoying.

EZMark
07-02-2003, 09:41 PM
Glad to see you back Larry. EZMark

07-02-2003, 10:07 PM
to: jpg, your earlier post and your analysis of the leagues was very depressing because it was right on the mark. One of the best posts I have ever seen. Since the BCA or the leagues will not teach ettitique like golf does, I insist the only way to deal with it is to fight fire with fire, return the shark, or to rise above this and try to police and educate your own little world and room and or later league.

As a Vegas captain, if a team had a player playing dirty, I would ask the other team captain to go to the bar with me and I would say clean it up, or we will play dirty as well. Two can play at that game. If my guys does anything you don't like, come get me, I'll stop it at once. Two captains can simply agree at the get go to play a fair and honest match.

I trained everyone on my team &amp; I train every student I teach to call the game 8 ball 3 different ways, to point to the pocket with their cue, to verbally say loud enough to be hear across the room, 8 ball in the right corner pocket, while they are still pointing the cue. Then to walk behind the pocket and take a chalk and tap the pocket 3 times with a loud thud and leave the chalk there, if a bar napkin or a 8 ball marker is used, that becomes the 4th marker, then pot the shot. If any one says they did not hear they are deaf, or blind, or are just a crook trying to cheat you. Anyone on the other team moves or talks during that pot, it is sharking and I am out of my seat over sitting next to the other team captain having a chat about it. If my guy missed, I am asking for the shot to be reset and shot over.
If he does not agree, then I am telling him every time his guy shoots the 8 we are knocking over tables.

Any time any opponent potted the 8 ball and failed to mark the pocket, one of my guys would stand up and stay you lost and quote the rule, the poor opponent would hang his head knowing he screwed up big time. I would walk up and award him the win. I never wanted to win a game or match by the rule book. I never did. I admit, I had great difficulity getting that across to my team, most did not like me doing that, they just did not vote in that decision I made on that subject. In 3 cushion billiards any time I score a point by a fluke, I come up to my next shot and tap the cb to produce a foul and end the run. Most tell me I am a fool doing this. OK, I stand convicted as charged, call me a fool.
I once stepped on my ball by accident in the rough and called a shot on my self, it cost me from advancing to the USOpen during a regional qualifier. Other golfers have done the same thing and it has cost them the US open. Do you want to have ethics and play a fair and honest game, or do you want to play dirty pool, that is the question, is it not? Fast Larry

JPB
07-02-2003, 10:31 PM
TY Fast Larry. You are going a bit far in 3 cushion by giving up your inning, but the sentiment and attitude is right. Billiard players are ahead of pool players on that score. I wish every bar table 8 ball player would seek out a billiard table and learn something about it. THAT would be good for pool in the long haul. Anyway, as to scratching into points in 3C, I got some pointers from an old player in Denver who was pretty good. Not a champ but a good player. He has a shot in one of Byrne's books that's pretty neat. We were playing a pasttime game and he was beating me about 20-3 or something ridiculous. He scratched into a point and came over to talk to me. The conversation went something like this:

"You know what you do when that happens in a match?"

"No, what?"

"Well, you look kind of embarrassed and then you try to run about 5 or 6 more to really make the other guy mad." /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


He was a gentleman though, and would help any new players he could. I wish there were about a million more like him.

07-02-2003, 11:18 PM
To: EZ, thanks guy for the welcome back, it hurt like hell to get thrown off, but what the hell, I deserved it. Me and my big mouth, I was rude. I have apologized many times before, allow me to do that once again.

The only way I can make it up to the people I have offended is to promise to be a professional in the future and to try to be a gentleman in all future discussions. If I am able to do that, perhaps some can let the old stuff slide and we can start all over.

A lot of what happened to me was a giant mis understanding in the beginning that just went bad and I handled very poorly. I do sincerly want to get it right this time around. I have a lot of acquired knowledge to offer and I hope the board allows me to share it. Some will let it slide, others will not.

My plan is to simply follow the golden rule on all future posts, if attacked, I will simply turn the other cheek and refuse to fight. I hope in time, I can be seen as someone who contributes to the board and someone who becomes your friend. That is my goal, wish me luck in achieving it, I am going to need it.
Fast Larry

highsea
07-02-2003, 11:47 PM
Tap Tap Tap.

Well said, Larry. I say welcome back also.

I had a boss once who started to ride me about something that happened in the past. I told him that if he wanted me to live yesterday over again he was going to have to pay me for it again! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

-Casey

bluewolf
07-03-2003, 09:24 AM
GL to you, Larry. Turning the other cheek is hard. Sometimes I succeed in this, and sometimes I fail abysmally. Hope you do better at this than I have at times.

Just think this is even harder on the internet than in person for some reason. Not sure why exactly.

bw

tateuts
07-03-2003, 10:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> My plan is to simply follow the golden rule on all future posts, if attacked, I will simply turn the other cheek and refuse to fight. I hope in time, I can be seen as someone who contributes to the board and someone who becomes your friend. That is my goal, wish me luck in achieving it, I am going to need it.
Fast Larry <hr /></blockquote>

Larry,

Well said. You will achieve your goal. Just remember that, unlike most of us, you are a professional and a public personality. You will be held to higher standards than most.

My very first boss told me something that has proven invaluable to this day. He said when you write a letter when you're upset, go ahead and write it down then put it in the drawer. Read it again the next day, then mail it.

Whenever I've done this, guess what? That letter has never once gone into the mail.

Welcome back.


Chris

Deeman
07-03-2003, 10:31 AM
Fast,

Good to have you back. You have much to add to the discussions here. Just don't send that Georgia rain up here to us. We have had enough for right now.

I wish you every success.

cycopath
07-03-2003, 10:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr>My very first boss told me something that has proven invaluable to this day. He said when you write a letter when you're upset, go ahead and write it down then put it in the drawer. Read it again the next day, then mail it.<hr /></blockquote>
What if you were so mad you made a mail bomb or included some anthrax in your letter, should you still reopen it the next day?

griffith_d
07-03-2003, 10:39 AM
The only way I can make it up to the people I have offended is to promise to be a professional in the future and to try to be a gentleman in all future discussions. If I am able to do that, perhaps some can let the old stuff slide and we can start all over.


I know about starting over(4th and last marriage,...many long stories there) and let bygones be bygones. I was not in on a lot of your posts, but I did read a few and you seemed to be the dog in the corner.

But, for anyone that can put up posts that everyone benefits from then that will be good.

Griff

tateuts
07-03-2003, 12:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr> What if you were so mad you made a mail bomb or included some anthrax in your letter, should you still reopen it the next day? <hr /></blockquote>

Cyco,

I'll let you know...tomorrow.

Chris

tateuts
07-03-2003, 03:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr> What if you were so mad you made a mail bomb or included some anthrax in your letter, should you still reopen it the next day? <hr /></blockquote>

See - perhaps there would have been a kinder, gentler unabomber.

Chris