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Qtec
07-02-2003, 02:41 AM
I was under the imprresion that the idea was to disarm the population and restore law and order . The fact is Iraqis are allowed to keep rifles, ak47s, etc . The only weapons that are being confiscated are anti tank and heavy artillery . Most of the population are armed and are intent on staying that way.
Until Saddam is caught or proved to be killed , they think that there is always a chance that he will come back.

There is not much chance of a quick pull out now. If ever that was the intention.

Q

Wally_in_Cincy
07-02-2003, 06:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> .....It is obvious that the situation in Iraq is becoming more volatile every day......<hr /></blockquote>

We can't help the fact that those people are too stupid to behave like civilized human beings. You would expect something better from the supposed "Cradle of Civilization"

Wally~~still thinks the war was justified if not inevitable

Qtec
07-02-2003, 07:20 AM
What happens in the city at night when there is a power cut ? In America?

Q

[ are you the Wally with the wand ? ]

Wally_in_Cincy
07-02-2003, 08:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> What happens in the city at night when there is a power cut ? In America? <hr /></blockquote>

Depends on the neighborhood. In my neighborhood everybody would light candles, sit on the front porch, visit with their neighbors and wait for it to come back on. It's also important to drink all your beer before it gets warm /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

In some so-called "urban" areas the folks would use that as an excuse to aquire the electronic equipment and athletic shoes they otherwise could not afford because they spent the daylight hours smoking reefers, drinking 40's, and having sex instead of working.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> [ are you the Wally with the wand ? ] <hr /></blockquote>

As they say in New York, I got your wand right here /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

eg8r
07-02-2003, 09:35 AM
[ QUOTE ]
In some so-called "urban" areas the folks would use that as an excuse to aquire the electronic equipment and athletic shoes they otherwise could not afford because they spent the daylight hours smoking reefers, drinking 40's, and having sex instead of working. <hr /></blockquote> Wally you better watch out, Ross is still on the prowl. He does not like you stereotyping these people because some of them do not do all you have said. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Wally_in_Cincy
07-02-2003, 09:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>

Wally you better watch out, Ross is still on the prowl. He does not like you stereotyping these people because some of them do not do all you have said. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

You are correct. Some prefer 12 oz. bottles in the summertime due to the "beer-gets-warm" factor, ....or crack.

Qtec
07-02-2003, 10:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
He does not like you stereotyping these people because some of them do not do all you have said <hr /></blockquote>

OMG !'" These people". "Some of them ".

Where do you get this from ?

You think poor people want to be poor , or at least deserve to be .

Q

Hopster
07-02-2003, 10:16 AM
There is not much chance of a quick pull out now. If ever that was the intention. &lt;--Qtec

That was never the intention at all. it was said before the war that our presence would be there for 3-5 years.
This is the reason Bush senior gave for not going after Saddam the first time. He said i knew that i would have to be in there for at least 5 years afterwards.

Hopster
07-02-2003, 10:18 AM
You are correct. Some prefer 12 oz. bottles in the summertime due to the "beer-gets-warm" factor, ....or crack. &lt;--Wally

Sometimes both. lol

Wally_in_Cincy
07-02-2003, 10:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> OMG !'" These people". "Some of them ".

Where do you get this from ?

You think poor people want to be poor , or at least deserve to be .

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Q,

I know quite a few poor people. They don't "want" to be poor. But they do prefer being poor to getting up in the morning and going to work. It's a trade-off that they are willing to make. About 50% would fall in that category. And yes there are some single mothers in that group. My ex-stepdaughter is one of them I am very sad to say.

Ross
07-02-2003, 10:38 AM
Eg8r, I have no problem with Wally's post. I am not a fan of "politically correct" speech as you seem to think. I am a fan of the truth though. Wally's statement is true - there are some urban areas where the norm is to not work and where many would be quick to take advantage of opportunities to loot.

From his posts, it is clear that Wally tends to be conservative and post from that point of view. I respect that. Unlike some, he doesn't seem to have a need to misrepresent what I say.

eg8r
07-02-2003, 11:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
OMG !'" These people". "Some of them ". <font color="blue"> Let me help clearify... "These people" (would be referring to people of urban areas). "Some of them" (would be some of the people living in urban areas). </font color>

Where do you get this from ? <font color="blue"> Right off the top of my head. Wally was referring to the entire population of said urban areas, and I was referring to only "some" of them. </font color>

You think poor people want to be poor , or at least deserve to be . <font color="blue"> To stay on topic and not divert to the "poor" discussion, we were referring to the people in said urban areas who choose to loot, drink, do drugs, and have sex. This is not about them being poor, but more the actions of said communities in such predicaments. ("What happens in the city at night when there is a power cut ? In America? ") </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>
eg8r

highsea
07-02-2003, 11:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> I was under the imprresion that the idea was to disarm the population and restore law and order . The fact is Iraqis are allowed to keep rifles, ak47s, etc . The only weapons that are being confiscated are anti tank and heavy artillery . Most of the population are armed and are intent on staying that way.
Until Saddam is caught or proved to be killed , they think that there is always a chance that he will come back.

There is not much chance of a quick pull out now. If ever that was the intention.
Q <hr /></blockquote>

The US gave the Iraqi's a timeframe to turn in any heavy caliber weapons and get amnesty. This was to allow the former military and militia personnel to rid themselves of the weapons without any repercussion. We are not interested in trying to collect every AK-47 in the country, nor do we expect to eliminate heavy caliber wealons and RPG's. The borders are too porous, and these weapons will make their way in from neighboring countries. The Iraqi's know that if they approach us now with these weapons we will shoot first and ask questions later. That is why we gave them the chance to hand them over first. Iraqi's are permitted to own light weapons and keep them in their homes. They are not permitted to carry them around on the streets.

The only place in the country where Saddam has any support is in the Sunni triangle around Tikrit. If he tried to take Baghdad back the Iraqi people would likely tear him limb from limb and "hit him with their shoes".

It is in the best interests of all parties for Iraq to get self rule as soon as possible, but the US will not permit an Iranian or Taliban style Fundamentalist Islamic Gov't to gain control in Iraq. Right now, the most vocal groups in Iraq are the religious clerics, who want to take over. In practically every city there is some local Imam who wants to proclaim himself mayor. They all seem to have a gang of thugs surrounding them, who threaten the local populace if they speak out against them. It is these groups who are ambushing US soldiers every day. If they can run us out, there is nobody to prevent them from taking over by force. If the US walked away now, Iraq would just become another Somalia. We can't let that happen.

I would like to see the US close all our bases in Europe. They are no longer needed, and these forces could be better utilized in the Mid-East, the Philipines, Indonesia, Afghanistan, and wherever else Islamic Fundamentalism and Terrorism have a foothold. These guys want to turn the clock back a thousand years, well we can do that for them.

-CM

Qtec
07-02-2003, 12:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It is in the best interests of all parties for Iraq to get self rule as soon as possible, but the US will not permit an Iranian or Taliban style Fundamentalist Islamic Gov't to gain control in Iraq. Right now, the most vocal groups in Iraq are the religious clerics, who want to take over. In practically every city there is some local Imam who wants to proclaim himself mayor. They all seem to have a gang of thugs surrounding them, who threaten the local populace if they speak out against them. It is these groups who are ambushing US soldiers every day. If they can run us out, there is nobody to prevent them from taking over by force. If the US walked away now, Iraq would just become another Somalia. We can't let that happen.

<hr /></blockquote>

At least every other person carries a gun , especially outside the house.
The whole problem is that the US is trying to exclude the Imam,s totally from the political scene. There are moderates among them and they do have the support of the people. Without a Govt. ,I think it would be expected from them that they help in day to day affairs. The US alternative is to put back the admin. before the Liberation .
Q

Qtec
07-02-2003, 01:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
That was never the intention at all. it was said before the war that our presence would be there for 3-5 years <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> First I have heard of this . Is this 'revisionist history ? </font color>


[ QUOTE ]
This is the reason Bush senior gave for not going after Saddam the first time. He said i knew that i would have to be in there for at least 5 years afterwards.
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> HaHaHaHa . Good one .

</font color>



Q

eg8r
07-02-2003, 01:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
First I have heard of this . Is this 'revisionist history ? <hr /></blockquote> Nope, Hitlary's book is revisionist history. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Qtec
07-02-2003, 01:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
First I have heard of this . Is this 'revisionist history ? <hr /></blockquote> Nope, Hitlary's book is revisionist history. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>




Thats a cheap shot coming from a Rep GWB lover like yourself.

Q

eg8r
07-02-2003, 01:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Hopster:</font><hr>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That was never the intention at all. it was said before the war that our presence would be there for 3-5 years
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



First I have heard of this . Is this 'revisionist history ?
<hr /></blockquote>

Here is one example, not quite the 3 years but it does show we would be there for awhile.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Excerpt from website (link below):</font><hr> The administration of U.S. President George W. Bush is reported to be completing work on a plan for a postwar Iraq. It includes the presence of a Western military occupation force for perhaps as long as 18 months and would use the proceeds from the sale of Iraqi oil to pay for rebuilding the country.
<hr /></blockquote>

Postwar timeframe (http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2003/01/07012003154959.asp)

I also remember Bush stating many times it he was unable to state exactly how long he expected it to take before we left Iraq.

I just know that the intent was not for us to leave immeadiately.

eg8r

eg8r
07-02-2003, 01:24 PM
No sir that is no different than what you just said to Hopster.

I also, am not the first one to state the obvious truth, that Hilary has yet to tell the truth about anything. [edit] <font color="blue"> Apparently the customers at Amazon feel the same way. Hilary keeps moving down the ladder. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Whoa, who is at number 2, is that Ann Coulter? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color>

eg8r &lt;~~~Sorry for changing subject. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

highsea
07-02-2003, 01:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> ...The US alternative is to put back the admin. before the Liberation. Q <hr /></blockquote>

QTEC! Did you say LIBERATION???

-CM &lt;~~~thinks that fall over the dog the other night must have rattled Q's brain! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hopster
07-02-2003, 11:39 PM
First I have heard of this . Is this 'revisionist history ?
&lt;--Qtec

In order for you to hear anything you have to keep your mouth shut and pay attention and not be busy telling everyone how much you know about everything. Clear on that ?

highsea
07-03-2003, 12:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hopster:</font><hr> That was never the intention at all. it was said before the war that our presence would be there for 3-5 years <hr /></blockquote>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote qtec:</font><hr> <font color="blue"> First I have heard of this . Is this 'revisionist history ? </font color> <hr /></blockquote>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hopster:</font><hr> This is the reason Bush senior gave for not going after Saddam the first time. He said i knew that i would have to be in there for at least 5 years afterwards.
<hr /></blockquote>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote qtec:</font><hr> <font color="blue"> HaHaHaHa . Good one .</font color>
Q <hr /></blockquote>

Actually, Q, both of Hopster's statements are true.

IIRC The first was from a statement from Donald Rumsfeld at a Pentagon briefing.

US presence does not necessarily mean US rule. It means that we will probably have a base or two in Iraq to ensure a peaceful transition to a democratic government (which could easily take 18 months. Iraq doesn't even have a constitution), protect US interests and those of our allies, and maintain a credible threat to Iran and Syria if they don't back off on their support of terrorist groups.

The quote from Bush Sr. was from an TV interview just last year.

Have you noticed the quieting down in the Palestinian/Israeli situation? Both sides are sitting down at the table for the first time in 3 years. Hamas has agreed to a cease fire, and Israel has pulled out of the West Bank.

The Israeli soldiers were cheering as they were pulling out. Sharon has agreed to begin dismantling settlements. The PA has a police force in the West Bank again.

None of this would have happened without the shift in the balance of power in the region.

Do I see a Nobel Peace Prize in Tony Blair's and GW's futures?

-CM

Hopster
07-03-2003, 03:16 AM
Actually, Q, both of Hopster's statements are true. &lt;--Highsea

Thank you, i knew someone would remember what Senior Bush had said. They might be saying eighteen months but i would bet its longer. The insurgents are going to play cat and mouse for quite a while, so i really dont think it will take less than 3 years, but thats just my opinion.

Qtec just likes to hear the sound of his own voice or his own typing if you will. 50 people can say something and he will say another just to create a little debate. And if it has anything to do with being against the United States he will be the first to throw a stone.
Where the hell is the Netherlands anyway ?? What is it a remote squalid little island or what ?

Wally_in_Cincy
07-03-2003, 06:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Hopster:</font><hr>

.....Where the hell is the Netherlands anyway ?? What is it a remote squalid little island or what ? <hr /></blockquote>

Just another European country that would be speaking German right now if not for the good ole USA.

Qtec
07-03-2003, 06:55 AM
Hopster, this is from the artcle eg8r quoted,
[ QUOTE ]
Washington, 7 January 2003 (RFE/RL) -- The administration of U.S. President George W. Bush is REPORTED to be completing work on a plan for a postwar Iraq. It includes the presence of a Western military occupation force for perhaps AS LONG AS long as 18 months and would use the proceeds from the sale of Iraqi oil to pay for rebuilding the country <hr /></blockquote>

If you dont know how long it will take, why say 18 months ? Do the Iraqis know that the US plans to stay for as long as 5 years ?


[ QUOTE ]
Nation building is a term that refers to creating or repairing the democratic institutions of failed or failing states. It is an idea that Bush himself rejected when he campaigned for the U.S. presidency in 2000. Specifically, he spoke of withdrawing U.S. forces from Kosovo because he believed they should not be stationed in a foreign country for purposes of nation building.

Shortly after he became president in January 2001, however, Bush shifted his attitude and decided to leave U.S. troops in Kosovo. And the United States maintains a substantial force in Afghanistan, alongside military personnel from allied countries
<hr /></blockquote>

You can see why people get confussed.

[ QUOTE ]
Already, Bush's critics accuse him of wanting to make war on Iraq not because Hussein is a threat to the Middle East and to the rest of the world. These critics say Bush, who is a former oil executive, as is his vice president, Dick Cheney, wants to take control of Iraq for its oil reserves, the world's second-largest after Saudi Arabia.

<hr /></blockquote>


How could anybody possibly think such a thing ? The fact that the first oil contract was HANDED [ no bidding ] to the company that D.C last worked for , before he went into politics , is purely a coincidence /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif.



" Thank you, i knew someone would remember what Senior Bush had said ".


As far as I know , Bush Sr is no longer in politics. He has no authority , officially , although he is also an oil man .

Q

eg8r
07-03-2003, 07:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Where the hell is the Netherlands anyway ?? What is it a remote squalid little island or what ? <hr /></blockquote> I understand this is probably said in jest, but please don't say it. Ole Q might jump on our education system and tell us how poor it is, since our people do not know a little geography. Then he will blame GWB for not sending even more money to the education system.

eg8r &lt;~~~joking (but quasi-serious /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

highsea
07-03-2003, 10:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> As far as I know , Bush Sr is no longer in politics. He has no authority , officially , although he is also an oil man .
Q <hr /></blockquote>

No one stated that he has any authority.

The statement was given by him as one reason he did not invade Iraq in 91. He knew that we would have to be there for at least 5 years, and the political situation, both domestically, and with the coalition would not support that.

The political situation, at least domestically, changed dramatically after 9/11.

If the US pulls out of Iraq before the country has a stable government, it will be a disaster for the Iraqi people.

-CM

Qtec
07-03-2003, 11:05 AM
You mean if it were not for Winston Churchill.
Q

Hopster
07-03-2003, 11:15 AM
Just another European country that would be speaking German right now if not for the good ole USA. &lt;--Wally

I beleive you Wally.

Hopster
07-03-2003, 11:17 AM
How could anybody possibly think such a thing ? The fact that the first oil contract was HANDED [ no bidding ] to the company that D.C last worked for , before he went into politics , is purely a coincidence .



" Thank you, i knew someone would remember what Senior Bush had said ".


As far as I know , Bush Sr is no longer in politics. He has no authority , officially , although he is also an oil man .&lt;--Qtec

Qtec, youre a waste of time. Its like i told you before, when you stop talking and start listening, a funny thing happens. You start to hear.

Hopster
07-03-2003, 11:18 AM
I understand this is probably said in jest, but please don't say it. Ole Q might jump on our education system and tell us how poor it is, since our people do not know a little geography. Then he will blame GWB for not sending even more money to the education system. &lt;--Eg8r

Probably, whats the netherlands done for the world lately ?
Thats what i would like to know.

Hopster
07-03-2003, 11:21 AM
No one stated that he has any authority.

The statement was given by him as one reason he did not invade Iraq in 91. He knew that we would have to be there for at least 5 years, and the political situation, both domestically, and with the coalition would not support that.

The political situation, at least domestically, changed dramatically after 9/11.

If the US pulls out of Iraq before the country has a stable government, it will be a disaster for the Iraqi people.&lt;--Highsea

Once again High, thank you for clarifying what everyone besides Qtec seems to know.

Qtec
07-04-2003, 12:19 AM
Hopster, if you disagree with anything I have said , feel free to jump in with your 2ct. I make my points by presenting an argument based on the facts , all I ask is that you do the same . Just 'shouting' is not going to help.
You are the one that needs to listen . You only hear what you want to hear and silly things like the truth or the facts arent going to change your mind .If I have quoted anything that is inacurate , show me and we can discuss it . Also , just because I argue a point doesnt neccessarily mean that it is my own personal belief, mostly I am just questioning.

A lot of people talk about Iraq as if it was a piece of real estate . The Brits and especially the Americans seem to be totally ignorant of Arab people and their culture .The worst thing you can do to an Arab is insult him . The 6 British soldiers were killed because peoples houses were searched with dogs.

The case for war gainst Iraq was based on half truths and selective evidence . Gw got the support of from Reb. and Dems by convicing them the threat from Saddam was 'real and imminent'. T.Blair is under pressure right now because of the "45 minute" statement. Wonder where he got that idea from ?

If there was no threat to America , there was no justification for war. In other words , the war was fought for other reasons than were given by GWB and Co.

Q

Hopster
07-04-2003, 01:58 AM
Hopster, if you disagree with anything I have said , feel free to jump in with your 2ct. I make my points by presenting an argument based on the facts , all I ask is that you do the same . Just 'shouting' is not going to help.
You are the one that needs to listen . You only hear what you want to hear and silly things like the truth or the facts arent going to change your mind .If I have quoted anything that is inacurate , show me and we can discuss it . Also , just because I argue a point doesnt neccessarily mean that it is my own personal belief, mostly I am just questioning. &lt;--Qtec

Fair enough and well said. For the record, i wasnt "Shouting". If i was, you would know.

Now for the record, i stated that our prescence would be there for 3-5 years and you disputed this. Others have heard 18 months but i recall 3-5. Did you think we were just going to go in there, whack out everyone and leave ?

Then i posted that Bush senior said the he didnt clip Saddam because he didnt want to be there for 5 years and you replied, Ha, good one.
Now Highsea agreed with me on this point also, he heard the same. Are we both liars ??
Also as far as the WMD issue goes, we havent found them yet but they will eventually, the guy had way more than enough time to get rid of them or bury them or whatever. Did anyone think Saddam was going to make a general announcement to the public that he was going to get rid of all his stuff before the Americans got there ??
Now that reason doesnt seem to be good enough for a lot of people, how about all the thousands and thousands that this junior Hitler has slaughtered ?? Does that come into anyones thoughts or is it made up also ??
Just cause you dont like this country doesnt make what we did wrong.

Qtec
07-04-2003, 06:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Now for the record, i stated that our prescence would be there for 3-5 years and you disputed this. Others have heard 18 months but i recall 3-5. Did you think we were just going to go in there, whack out everyone and leave ?
<hr /></blockquote>

I dont dispute whay Bush Sr said .I dispute that it is of any relevance. He does not speak for the Admin and why should I believe him ?. Its what GWB says that counts and I never heard him say 5 years.I,m sure most people didnt either.

I personally thought that it would take , in a best case senario , 3 years before there was any chance of pulling out. It all depends on the objective and who knows what that is.


[ QUOTE ]
Also as far as the WMD issue goes, we havent found them yet but they will eventually, the guy had way more than enough time to get rid of them or bury them or whatever. Did anyone think Saddam was going to make a general announcement to the public that he was going to get rid of all his stuff before the Americans got there ??
<hr /></blockquote>

I think Saddam did repeatedly claim that he had no nuclear [ which was the first claim by GW ] or biological [ said they were destroyed [ who knows ?].


For the record, I am glad that Saddam has been deposed but this is not the point.

IMO , the US Govt. has been hijacked. GW has been manipulated and the people , American and european, have been mislead.

With all the security depts at America,s disposal [ CIA etc] GWB set up his own dept. at the Whitehouse. Why? What could they tell him that the others couldnt?

Quetion : If , lets say , from the 20 people on this council were of Russian org., and they advised the President to attack Chechnia , would you raise an eyebrow ? Would you question their motives?

Q