PDA

View Full Version : APA weaker competition then BCA?



Irish
07-03-2003, 01:42 PM
On that BCA post it seems people are saying that the APA is a softer league then the BCA in calibre of opponents. I am from Canada so I dont have a chance of playing in a APA league or winning a trip to Vegas to play in the big APA event and see what level the people are. I always assumed that the APA would have similar level players in it due to the size of the tournament and the money being decent.

For the APA is the singles event in Vegas handicapped? For the APA are handicaps used in the teams events as well during Vegas? If either one of those are true I am not missing much it seems with no APA up here. If those are the case then it is no wonder the better players would avoid the APA and play in the VNEA and BCA instead. If there are handicaps used in either the teams or singles competition then I take it there is only one huge division and no Open/Masters divisions?

I have always wondered about the SL 1-7 ratings you all talk about and someone saying they are a SL-2, SL-4, or SL-7 is all Greek to me. If the BCA is truely made up of much stronger competition on the average then what level would a APA player want to be in order to compete in the Open singles event in Vegas. Does it take a SL-7 to have a chance of winning the BCA singles open event? Are there even people like Brian Groce (who won the BCA masters event this year) playing in the APA. I would imagine he is well above the minimum for being a SL-7, or is a Scott Toleffson, Brian Groce, Tyler Edey, level of player what it takes to get a SL-7 rating as a minimum.

With all the talk of SL ratings I am sure you all know to a reasonable extent how good each other are as long as you have had APA experience since a large majority of you are from the States. I on the other hand dont have a clue how good any of you play no matter what you say your SL-rating is. I always wonder when a person says they are SL-7 just how good that really makes them and now with hearing the BCA is tougher cometition I wonder if those SL-7's are not exactly dominant players that can run alot of racks (1 in 4 or so off the break).

Here in Calgary the competition is quite tough. We have alot of players that go down into the BCA and VNEA events and do very well. 2002 we had the 1st 2nd and 3rd place teams in the masters event in the VNEA all from Calgary. Here though we have no SL ratings. We dont really rank our players but everyone knows everyone and how good each other shoot. Our leagues have levels such as Masters, Open A, Open B, Rec. The lines are blurred abit of course but the top master for the year usually has between 30-35 ERO's out of 100-120 games with the average master around 20. The top Open A player will get 20 ERO's and the average A player will be at 10 or so. The top B player might get 10 ERO's with the average around 3 or 4. The top rec player might have 5-10 ERO's (depending on who sandbagged to get there) with the average likely under 1 ERO due to alot of weak players.

In 100 games how many ERO's would the average SL-1 get, how about the SL-2, SL-3,....... to SL-7. Could a person who only get about 10 ERO's per 100 games be a SL-7, or does it take better play then that and that person would be a SL-5 or 6?

Someone break it down please. I have seen people say "well it really depends, some people play safe better then others and therefore dont have to ERO as much to be a SL-7" At the top level of 8-ball ERO's are the key to winning. Alternate break in the BCA masters race to 9 a person would be at 5-7 ERO's off their own break when playing well, there is no way you can beat a person playing at that level without ERO'ing them back and keeping them off the table on your break.

Fred Agnir
07-03-2003, 01:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Irish:</font><hr> On that BCA post it seems people are saying that the APA is a softer league then the BCA in calibre of opponents. I am from Canada so I dont have a chance of playing in a APA league or winning a trip to Vegas to play in the big APA event and see what level the people are<hr /></blockquote>In Canada, the APA is called the CPA.

APA SL-7 just means you suck less than an APA SL-6. Or something like that.

Most APA 8-ball SL-7 handicappers have little chance at becoming a Masters player (BCA or VNEA). Those that do have the game to become a Masters player don't play the APA anymore and go on to other tournaments. That's a gross generalization as I recall when Mike Bandy won the APA Nationals. He is a professional caliber player. It's just tuff to stay on a team as an SL-7 given the team handicap limit rule.

There is no top end for an SL-7. So, a weak SL-7 might not have 10 B&amp;R's out of a 100, whereas a strong one might have 40 (or more) out of 100 on a barbox.

Fred

Fred Agnir
07-03-2003, 02:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Irish:</font><hr> The lines are blurred abit of course but the top master for the year usually has between 30-35 ERO's out of 100-120 games with the average master around 20<hr /></blockquote>What is your league's definition of an ERO? Throughout the years, I've heard of three variations on what is considered an ERO from very generous to very strict.


Fred

07-03-2003, 02:35 PM
I currently play in a BCA and a APA league, where I am certainly not a "master" in BCA but am a s/l 7 in APA. I believe the competition in BCA is much stronger for several reasons: mainly the BCA league is a cash league which tends to draw the stronger "money game" players and secondly as a s/l 7 I find myself usually playing a 2 or 3 and sometimes a 4. These are matches I have a high percentage of winning because I have the ability of running the table where this s/l player only rarely runs a rack.

For my money you take the top 5 players from each league competing in a tournament against each other and the outcome will be BCA over APA 8 times out of 10. This is only my opinion and let me say this "I love to play on my APA team"

How does the rest of the board feel about this????

Irish
07-03-2003, 02:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Irish:</font><hr> The lines are blurred abit of course but the top master for the year usually has between 30-35 ERO's out of 100-120 games with the average master around 20<hr /></blockquote>What is your league's definition of an ERO? Throughout the years, I've heard of three variations on what is considered an ERO from very generous to very strict.


Fred
<hr /></blockquote>

An ERO is running out on your first attempt at the table with 15 balls still up.

If you have the break, you break, you run out and your opponent did nothing but rack the balls, thats an ERO.

If you rack the balls. Your opponent breaks, does not make a ball and leaves all 15 on the table. You get up and run out, thats an ERO.

If your opponent breaks and makes anything you automatically cannot get an ERO anymore as there is no longer 15 balls on the table, best you can do is a first attempt.

The defenition in our leagues are "running out on your first attempt with all 15 balls still up".

Any time you run out on your first attempt when there is not 15 balls left on the table it is considered just a first attempt.

Michelle
07-04-2003, 09:34 AM
APA skill levels come from a mix of a lot of factors -- wins vs. losses, how many "innings" (times up at the table) it takes to win a match, safety play, SL of person you win against, etc.
But, a good gauge of skill levels is how many balls, on average, a person makes each time up at the table.
A SL-4 can usually go up to the table after the break, and consistently make about 4 balls before getting hooked, scratching, whatever. Usually, it takes this person 3-4 attempts before running out his/her balls.
An SL-7 can consistently run out in 1-2 times up to the table.

Since SL-7 is the highest rating, you have a very wide range of SL-7's in the league...some much, much better than others. And, I think the really god ones eventually get bored, because they rarely see god enough competition.
On the other hand, you're right that many SL-7's may not be "master" BCA players, because just having the ability to run balls against SL-4's and 5's doesn't necessarily mean a player has his defensive game or his head game in tact.
And, keep in mind that most APA matches are on bar boxes...

RedHell
07-04-2003, 12:35 PM
Irish,

I play VNEA in Canada as well (Quebec) and I find it strange that we don't have the same ranking level. I tought that the ranking was a VNEA requirement !

Here we have Master,A,B,C,D... Actually each letter breaks down in two. A+, A, b+, b, C+, etc.

Depending on the league level you are in (Elite, Intermediate or amateur) each letter is assigned a value and the total of each players rank make the team handicap. Your team handicap set wich league you are allowed to play in...

Last season the best player in the Elite league was a master and finnished with 40 ero in 140 games. So the top master seems to compare with yours.

Doesn't your league rank their players on that ABCD system ?

Irish
07-04-2003, 12:57 PM
Yeah our league does it Master, Open A1, Open A2, Open B1, Open B2, and then Recreational. The divisions are set up a little different though. Pretty much all the Open A1 and 2 players would be SL-7 it seems along with every Master.