PDA

View Full Version : APA rule clarification needed



jjinfla
07-03-2003, 09:21 PM
When playing in the APA, under APA rules, a player attempts to break but misses the 1 ball but does hit the rack. He fails to make a ball or send four balls to the rail. What is the ruling? The CB does not scratch. I have read rule #3 I just would like your interpretation. Thanks. Jake

07-03-2003, 10:03 PM
You don't say if it's 8-ball or 9-ball, but since you mention the 1-ball not being struck first (rather than the head ball or second ball not being struck first as in 8-ball), it sounds like you're referring to 9-ball.

Either way, though, rule #3 for both 8 and 9 ball have the same ambiguity. For example, the 8-ball break rule could be interpreted as:

"To be a legal break, <font color="red">the head ball or second ball must be struck first</font color> <font color="blue">and at least four balls must be driven to the rails or a ball must be pocketed.</font color>"

Or it could be interpreted as:

"To be a legal break, <font color="red">the head ball or second ball must be struck first and at least four balls must be driven to the rails</font color> <font color="blue">or a ball must be pocketed.</font color>"

I interpret it to mean the former, as that seems more logical to me. They definitely should clear that up, though -- a single comma in the correct place would remove the ambiguity. I'd be curious to see the opinion of more seasoned APA coaches or captains on this call...

highsea
07-03-2003, 11:47 PM
I understand what David is saying, but according to Jake's scenario, neither interpretation was met for a legal break.

Since there was no scratch, the balls are re-racked, and the player breaks again.

The rule is intended to mean this:

There are 2 conditions that need to be met for a legal break. (9ball)

Condition 1: The cue ball must be shot from behind the headstring directly into the rack, without first touching any rail, and the one ball must be the first ball contacted.

Condition 2: Either 4 balls must contact the rail, or a ball must be pocketed.

The game does not begin until a legal break has been made.

-CM

jjinfla
07-04-2003, 03:42 AM
I was referring to 9-ball only.

I agree that it was not a legal break but since the lowest numbered ball (the 1) was not struck first was this not a foul?

And rule 3 reads: "...A game not legally broken, but resulting in a scratch or a foul, will be reracked and broken by the opposite player. The rack must be struck before a foul can occur..."

Or is that not a foul?

And what kind of possible foul are they referring to?

Confused.

Jake

highsea
07-04-2003, 04:27 AM
It is a little contradictory, isn't it. First it says "An attempt to break does not count unless the rack is broken as above" ("the above" being the definition of a legal break), and the balls are reracked and rebroken by the same player.

That is what I how I would classify your scenario, "an attempt to break". The CB was not scratched or jumped off the table, balls were not interfered with, etc.

I can see how you could interpret it as a foul, the lowest numbered ball was not hit first.

Since intentional soft breaks are not allowed, I picture your scenario as a miscue on the break, where the CB glances weakly off the rack and drifts back downtable. 4 balls don't make a rail, so it was not a very solid hit on the rack. I call it an "attempt" and let the breaker try again.

Maybe one of the APA refs here will weigh in on this one.

-CM

highsea
07-04-2003, 04:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> I was referring to 9-ball only.

I agree that it was not a legal break but since the lowest numbered ball (the 1) was not struck first was this not a foul?

And rule 3 reads: "...A game not legally broken, but resulting in a scratch or a foul, will be reracked and broken by the opposite player. The rack must be struck before a foul can occur..."

Or is that not a foul?

And what kind of possible foul are they referring to?

Confused.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Okay, Jake. I knew I saw this addressed somewhere.

Page 67 of the team manual, The 9 Ball League, Section 4, Breaking.

"Failure to strike the one ball first does not result in a foul"

-CM

WaltVA
07-04-2003, 05:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> I was referring to 9-ball only.

I agree that it was not a legal break but since the lowest numbered ball (the 1) was not struck first was this not a foul?

And rule 3 reads: "...A game not legally broken, but resulting in a scratch or a foul, will be reracked and broken by the opposite player. The rack must be struck before a foul can occur..."

Or is that not a foul?

And what kind of possible foul are they referring to?

Confused.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Okay, Jake. I knew I saw this addressed somewhere.

Page 67 of the team manual, The 9 Ball League, Section 4, Breaking.

"Failure to strike the one ball first does not result in a foul"

-CM <hr /></blockquote>
Jake was quoting Rule #3 covering 8-ball breaking from the OLD rule book. The newest edition changes Rule #3 to read "If the break does not qualify as legal and results in a scratch, the balls are reracked and broken by the opposite player."

As highsea pointed out, in the 9-ball section of the new rule book, Rule #4, page 67-68 says "Failure to strike the 1-ball first does not result in a foul. If the break does not qualify as legal, the balls are reracked and rebroken by the same player. If the break does not qualify as legal, and <font color="red">results in a scratch </font color> the balls are reracked and broken by the opposite player. THE RACK MUST BE STRUCK BEFORE A FOUL CAN OCCUR."

The new wording is intended to make it clear that the ONLY way you change breakers is a non-legal break followed by a scratch. HTH,

Walt in VA (APA Referee)

rackmup
07-04-2003, 06:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote APA Rulebook:</font><hr>3. BREAKING

Players must break from behind the head string. To be a legal break, the head ball or second ball must be struck first and at least four object balls must be driven to the rails or a ball must be pocketed. The cue ball may not be shot into a rail before the rack. An attempt to break does not count unless the rack is broken as above. Otherwise, the balls are reracked and broken by the same player. A game not legally broken, but resulting in a scratch or a foul, will be reracked and broken by the opposite player. THE RACK MUST BE STRUCK BEFORE A FOUL CAN OCCUR. Breaking safe or soft is not allowed.
The League Operator may make judgments and issue penalties to teams and players who are not breaking hard. Breaking just hard enough to comply with this rule is not a guarantee against penalty. Remember, break as hard as you can with control.<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote :</font><hr><font color="red">Texas</font color> APA Addendum to Section 3; Rule 3 re: "The League Operator may make judgments and issue penalties to teams and players who are not breaking hard."<hr /></blockquote>

If determined by the League Operator, any player/team who is purposely failing to comply with Rule 3 regarding Breaking, the L.O. may access any or all of the following penalties:

Forfeiture of game.
Forfeiture of match.
Banishment from APA league play.
Forced to place forehead on knob end of baseball bat, spin around ten times while maintaining head/knob contact, then run semi-nude through playing establishment parking lot.
The public declaration about your activities while in college, including the "Fraternity Hazing" ritual involving Jergen's Lotion, a frozen whole chicken, a cone hat and tar and feathering. You know what I'm talking about.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Ken (not going to South Padre Island (had my dates confused), not going to Petty Point (have to see three customers today) and quit messing with them frozen chickens since my first week in counseling.)

jjinfla
07-04-2003, 10:39 AM
Thanks guys. I had both the rule book (new version) and the manual downloaded from the APA site and printed out but I only read the rule book. This morning I checked out the manual and there in plain English it states (as you guys pointed out) that not hitting the one on a break is not a foul just an illegal break. (Perhaps they should add that wording to the rule book). So the result is rerack and break again. And that is what happened so everything worked out okay. Thanks, Jake

RedHell
07-04-2003, 12:02 PM
This is a major difference with the BCA rules. Any break in 9-ball is legal after the cue ball crosses the head sting (or is hit with a cue, not sure). In any case, if the breaker fail to hit the one ball, it's a foul and the opponent can take ball in hand and play safety for the second foul.