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View Full Version : Pool Pllayed before (ball in hand)



BillyRinNC
07-04-2003, 12:24 AM
I feel 9 ball was a much better game before ball in hand. The other player having option of shooting or having the shooter shoot again on bad hits and cue balls behind the line on scratches. This forced player to try to get out. We miss so many runs due to saftey play. I am not knocking safty play, as one pocket is my favorite game ( Im addicted). But 9 ball has changed for the worst in my opinion.

How do you all feel about this , particularly those that remember pool before the big change?

BillyR in NC

highsea
07-04-2003, 12:32 AM
How does the BIH rule increase safety play? It seems that a player would still shoot a safety if he didn't have a good shot.

-CM

BillyRinNC
07-04-2003, 02:11 AM
People play safe to hopefully get ball in hand rather than risk a shot and miss. When you dont play ball in hand you have to try to make a good hit if you dont your opponant can choose to shoot if he likes the position or he can make you shoot again till a good hit has been made. If you did play safe he can make you shoot again and would if he didnt have a desirable shot. All scratches the cue ball is placed behind the headstring for next player and if his next ball to be shot is behind the headstring it gets wiped off the table unless it is the money ball or the ball before the money ball
(which would be spotted). This in effect eliminates safes.

highsea
07-04-2003, 02:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BillyRinNC:</font><hr> People play safe to hopefully get ball in hand rather than risk a shot and miss.

<font color="blue"> I don't think that is the only reason to play a safety. If I can make a good hit, but have a poor chance of making the shot, or getting position on the next ball, a safety may be the smarter play. </font color>

When you dont play ball in hand you have to try to make a good hit if you dont your opponant can choose to shoot if he likes the position or he can make you shoot again till a good hit has been made.

<font color="blue"> I still have to make a good hit when I am playing the safety, or I give my opponent BIH. </font color>

If you did play safe he can make you shoot again and would if he didnt have a desirable shot.

<font color="blue"> He can't make me shoot again if I made a good hit. </font color>

All scratches the cue ball is placed behind the headstring for next player and if his next ball to be shot is behind the headstring it gets wiped off the table unless it is the money ball or the ball before the money ball
(which would be spotted). This in effect eliminates safes.

<font color="blue"> I don't see how that eliminates safes. Maybe I am missing something. With either rule, the incoming player will still get a shot after a scratch. </font color>

-CM

<hr /></blockquote>

BillPorter
07-04-2003, 05:38 AM
As I recall, the old rules allowed a push on any shot. So if you played a safty, I could just push and you would then choose whether to shot or make me shot again. Consequently, you saw little or no safety play in the old days.

highsea
07-04-2003, 05:49 AM
I can see how that would diminish the value of a safety, if you could push out of it anytime. Did that ever create safety-push-safety-push-safety-push battles?

-CM

Fran Crimi
07-04-2003, 06:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BillPorter:</font><hr> As I recall, the old rules allowed a push on any shot. So if you played a safty, I could just push and you would then choose whether to shot or make me shot again. Consequently, you saw little or no safety play in the old days. <hr /></blockquote>

Those are the rules I remember. BillyRinNC's rules sound more like rotation rules.

Billy does make a good point. Push-out 9-ball was definitely a shooter's game. You have to be able to come with the big shot if you want to win. I think the problem with that game for tournament play is that it takes too long. I remember that gamblers were still playing it even after the 3 foul rule was being used for tournaments, but they didn't have to worry about holding up a tournament when they were matching up.

I think push-out 9 ball was definitely a tougher game and geared for the more advanced player. So if you get two players who aren't especially good shot-makers playing each other, one game could take forever.

Fran

NH_Steve
07-04-2003, 08:18 AM
We always played 'honest hit' in ring games (with more than two players) -- where you have to at least look kind of like you are shooting to make the ball -- any safety being frowned upon. Talk about favoring the shooters over the strategy guys -- no wonder I always hated that game!

In all the earlier 9-ball rules that I remember, I still played safe to a degree. Even back then, it generally paid to let the other guy take the really hard shots. I had a whole variety of 'safeties' that looked like 'shots', or two way shots designed to give myself the best chance to win. The idea of a safety back then was to just leave a tough shot. As others have stated, it did no good to hook your opponent, cuz they would just push anyway. Once the BIH rules came out, it just let safety play 'out of the closet' so to speak -- but it was always there, IMO. BIH did certainly kill the spot shot, though.

The BIH rules really added a nice extra element of reward for good safety play, too. It actually bumped my 9-ball game up a notch at the time, because it really was tailored to players like me that favor the strategy side of the game. I took advantage of it alot -- until I decided if I liked safety play so much, why don't I just play One Pocket -- so that's what I've basically done for the last 15 years /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

HalSmith
07-04-2003, 08:26 AM
I think it used to be a push on the first shot after the break if you failed to make a bgall on the break. But I think to make the game better would be to do away with the jump shot. However all I play is one hole so it really makes no differance to me.---Smitty

BillPorter
07-04-2003, 09:31 AM
I don't recall any push-out/safty, push-out/safty battles. As Fran said, it was a shooter's game. If you could make the tough shots and your opponent couldn't, you had a lock.

Qtec
07-04-2003, 10:09 AM
Highsea , I think what he means is that it is easier to play go for the 3 fouls if you can place the Qb. eg.
START(
%AK7E3%BL7P8%DL7K9%EN2E3%GJ6^4%HO5M9%LJ2\0%PH3F7%Q L3D9%RO1D4
%WJ6E7%XI3F3%YO6D4%ZN5C2
)END

With BiH, you could play the snooker and leave the Qb at point [A] . If your opppnent misses , with BiH you can play the same shot from the other side [ Qb to B ] and if he misses , you win . Its easy to lose in 9b.

Q

07-04-2003, 10:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HalSmith:</font><hr>I think it used to be a push on the first shot after the break if you failed to make a bgall on the break. <hr /></blockquote>Smitty, that's the way 9B is played now. First shot after the break can be pushed no matter if a ball drops on the break or not. What they're talking about here is the old push-out 9B where a push was allowed any time.

Leviathan
07-04-2003, 10:34 AM
Nice picture, Bill. Source? --Duke Mantee

L.S. Dennis
07-04-2003, 10:35 AM
Fran,

I agree with you on your assestment of this styly of play. And you right this is the way I remember it too!

stevelomako
07-04-2003, 12:42 PM
Happy 4th of July to all!
We were talking about this on AZ a little while ago. I think it would help if the people that don't know how 9-ball was played years ago were told how the rules were back then.

* 9-ball was played 2-fouls in a row / ball in hand (sometimes 2 by the same player but mostly 2 in a row).
* You could push out at any time and the incoming player had the option to take the shot or let you shoot. If there was any foul on the second shot the other player had ball in hand anywhere on the table.
* Any balls made on any foul or push-out were spotted.
* Cue ball was ball in hand -behind the line- on the 1st scratch.

We were talking about how players used to run more racks, more often years ago. With the old rules you didn't get penalized for trying to make a ball and breaking tied up balls out. You could be more aggressive because if you got hooked you could push-out, so in trying to break up balls that were tied up you would most likely run out more. Nowadays the right/safe thing to do is run out to the problem ball and try to hook your opponent for ball in hand. Cant take a chance of breaking balls up and hooking yourself can you?
Also with push-out players would push-out to their strengths, a bank, a tough cut (Earl used to push-out for a jump shot-he was the greatest jumper with a regular cue then, didn't have the little ones back then).
You also had to be able to make spot shots, if someone made the 9 and scratched, you spotted the 9 and had ball in hand behind the line. What are you going to do-play safe? No you make the spot shot-when do you ever see one now besides one-pocket, almost never.
Players games were more rounded because there were so many different shots to use and a little bit of thinking behind them. It seems like older players can play all games well, where nowadays there's too many 9-ball specialists that shy away from anything else (meaning Pro's and other top players). Not that there's anything wrong with that but someone that can play all games is that much more dangerous.

Sorry about the length of my 1st post but I've been reading this site for quite awhile and everyone seems pretty decent and wants to learn something so I thought I'd put my 2 cents in. Thanks for your patience.
Steve Lomako

HalSmith
07-04-2003, 02:09 PM
David, that shows you how much I pay attention to 9-ball . lol. When ya'll are talking about how 9-ball was played years ago. I fall into that group that played it many years ago. I want to think the way we played , and I played in New Mexico and points west was we never had ball in hand, any ball scratched on came up and you never got a free shot at the money ball. By that I mean if you scratched on the 8 it came up you just couldn't shot the nine. It's a wonder I ever made any money at that game,lol---Smitty

Leviathan
07-04-2003, 02:53 PM
Thanks for the interesting information, Steve. You make the old rules sound pretty good! You mentioned One-Pocket, and that got me wondering whether the One-Pocket rules have changed much since, let's say, WWII. Know anything about that?

Lev

BillPorter
07-05-2003, 05:26 AM
Thanks. Here's the URL (just right click on the photo and choose "Properties" to get the URL.

http://www.steberphoto.com/Imagesmall/Pool%20Players.jpg

stevelomako
07-05-2003, 10:04 AM
As far as I know 9-ball is the only game that's played by god only knows how many different rules, and anytime someone starts a new organization they come up with even newer ones.

One-pocket, Straight pool, banks(only game you cant get lucky in), have been played the same way for who knows how long. Probably because they are the most skillful games in pool compared to 9-ball. Like playing a real golf course compared to a Par 3 course. Keep chipping 100-150 yards every hole, you will get near the hole. Play a real course and its a different story.
But its the most popular and easiest game to learn, hit the lowest number ball on the table, sometimes you can poop it in or make it on the break, maybe someone will scratch on the 7 or 8. Gives hope to the weaker player.
Don't get me wrong, I like playing 9-ball, I just like playing games where I can really think and be creative a lot more.

I'm trying to work out a deal with one of the casinos here in Detroit for a tournament. Would like to have a real all-around tournament where you and your opponent would play 9-ball, 8-ball, Banks, Straight Pool, and One-Pocket. Maybe find out which Champions can really play!

I'd appreciate anyone's opinion or comments on such a tournament.

Thanks, Steve

L.S. Dennis
07-05-2003, 12:31 PM
I'd have to say the 8-ball is the only game that surpasses 9-ball in the number of different rules played by people. You're right though way too many rules for the same game. Pro Express, Texas Express, WBA it gets confusing sometimes. They should just adopt Grady's Rules once and for all and be done with it! Unfortunately those who like to put the 9 no the train on practically every shot wouldn't be happy with Grady's Rules. Oh well, keep on whacking I guess!

Rod
07-05-2003, 12:50 PM
Hi Steve,
Yes that is the game as I remember it. It seems like decades, well I guess about 20 years anyway. Definately more offense was used then. Someone mentioned you didn't play safe because of the push. Well in fact there was a safe part of the game. Yes your opponent could push, but if you hooked them and put the ball in front of a pocket( or a carom on the 9 etc, they had few, if any places to push without a sell out. Then along come the jump cue. Ah the good old days. Maybe todays days will be the good old days sometime. LOL

Rod

stevelomako
07-05-2003, 04:12 PM
Rod, You have the 20 years ago right, so you've been around a little too. If you've been in Arizona that long then you know--what ever happened to Buddy Dennis (The one and only Baltimore Bullet)?

Thanks

Rod
07-05-2003, 08:54 PM
Steve,
All I know is the name, never met or played the man. So I haven't a clue about his life. I quit playing for some time in 80's when I lived in Tucson. I'm sure many players come and went in those years. Did he live out here?

Rod

eg8r
07-05-2003, 11:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to work out a deal with one of the casinos here in Detroit for a tournament. Would like to have a real all-around tournament where you and your opponent would play 9-ball, 8-ball, Banks, Straight Pool, and One-Pocket. Maybe find out which Champions can really play!

I'd appreciate anyone's opinion or comments on such a tournament. <hr /></blockquote> I think this would be great. Similar to Derby (but different /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ). I thought Grady was trying to get something like this together also.

eg8r

BillyRinNC
07-06-2003, 12:27 PM
I stand corrected , it was push out at any time. Even I have forgotten and this was the "game" when I started playing and loved it. Ball in in hand got me too till I discovered one pocket.

BillyRinNC
07-06-2003, 02:53 PM
It was a shooters game and one that is quickly disappearing due to young players not being exposed to it. I miss it even though I have not played it that way in quite a while. One pocket is the ultimate safety game and I'm addicted. Easy to lose interest in 9 ball.

BillPorter
07-06-2003, 07:05 PM
Yeah, I think all I really miss about the old rules 9-ball is the youth I enjoyed when I played it 40 years ago. Some of my fondest memories are from a period of time when I spent all my nights at Cotton Bowling Palace in Dallas, TX. shootin' pool. I lived in that place for a year before going back to college and getting a degree. Watched some memorable 9-ball games involving some old players like Freddie Sessions from New Orleans, Sleepy Joe Cosgrove, Detroit Whitey, Kilroy &amp; Bunny Rogoff, San Jose Dick and others I can't recall at the moment. Since there was no real safety play, there were some spectacular run outs.

Magog
07-23-2003, 08:09 PM
It sounds like 9-ball used to be how 8-ball is now. Everybody has their own rules!