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View Full Version : My Lesson with Scott Lee Tomorrow



GreenLion
07-04-2003, 01:14 PM
Im very anxious for the lesson,and this week has just dragged on waiting for the big day.1 of my biggest problems right now is keeping grip pressure constant.Im very interested on what Scott Lee will say to me about that.Im also very interested about what kind of practicing ruetines he is going to show me.Having the whole lesson vedio taped is really going to be nice.Well ill reply back on here tomorrow night to tell you all how it was. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Kato
07-05-2003, 06:10 AM
Scott has helped me already (1 practice session, 1 play session) just based on pace. It's brutally simple, terribly painful, and horribly honest but it should pay dividends for you.

The practice routines are easy enough but you still have to do them. When I say "easy", I don't mean "easy", I mean "easy" to grasp and "hard" to finish.

Kato~~~sleepy but at work

GreenLion
07-06-2003, 01:26 AM
The Lesson was really great!Scott Lee has tuaght me how to controll the CB with the least amount of force.What i mean by that is that i no longer need to mussle the stroke,instead it is a nice smooth stroke from start to finish.Before the lesson i usually mussled the stroke to get the power i needed on hard and medium shots but now i hit the CB and i get those same results with much less effort.He also went over speed control but that something that im still alittle unclear about but im sure the vedio will clr that up.I really enjoyed the lesson and learned some great drills to help me learn to develope this effortless stroke.Thanks Agian Scott Lee!By the way Scott discovered i was not the sunny kid in my math classes hehe. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

GreenLion
07-06-2003, 01:44 AM
Thx for sharing your lesson with me Kato.Im glad to hear that Scott has helped you with your game.I understand about the drills.I was just at my Pool table alittle while ago practicing these drills and i agree they are tough but they are already making a change.I only practice 2 of the exercises cuase im unsher how the others went.I should get my vedio soon.Goodluck with you game Kato!

eg8r
07-06-2003, 09:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Agian Scott Lee!By the way Scott discovered i was not the sunny kid in my math classes hehe <hr /></blockquote> I don't think you were the sunny kid in spelling either. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r &lt;~~~~Just fooling around

Qtec
07-06-2003, 11:34 AM
Tap. Tap. LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

You just cant resist , eh ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q

eg8r
07-06-2003, 02:29 PM
I was trying real hard, until I read the post of his lower down the thread. I was being real nice and kidding around. I try not to be mean about spelling and rarely do comment on it (but I just helped Bolo out on another thread /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) but when you cannot spell "unsure" correctly, something might be wrong.

Anyways, I was just having a little fun.

eg8r &lt;~~~I never use spell checker and rely on my ability to proofread. I have mis-spelled plenty. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Qtec
07-06-2003, 03:28 PM
I no . /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q

GreenLion
07-07-2003, 12:35 AM
Well you may be kidding eg8r about my spelling,but your right hehe.I never could stay awake in my morning classes.I remember snoring in class once and well the teacher came by with her ruler and slammed it on my desk.I was wide awake after that! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gifMath classes were daydream time,so dont ask me what um well lets just not finish this sentence hehe /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
hehehe well anyways im continueing to work on the drills i remember Scott working with me on,and earlier this evening i was having lots of trouble.After getting a little flustered i just closed my eyes and thought of the lesson.After a feew minutes it just hit me head on what i was doing wrong.I had my bridge hand to far back.It should only be 3 ball diameters behind the CB and my tip should be touching the table 2 ball diameters ahead of the CB.Once i made this change the shots i started to make were really accurate.I no longer had to drop my elbow to reach the CB.I do still have to make sher i follow all the way thru.Scott if your reading this thread i just want to say agian Thankyou.My game is already starting to exceed my skills before the lesson and it was only yesterday that i had the lesson.Theres only 1 word to describe the results of what you taught me !!!!WOW!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Scott Lee
07-07-2003, 11:34 PM
Scott...Happy to help! The video will be coming in a few days! I am still backed up with dubbing several other lessons before yours! However, I would be happy to go over anything on the phone with you, and you could take some notes, until your tape arrives!

Scott Lee

Irish
07-08-2003, 01:43 AM
I dont get why so many instructors try to get rid of the elbow drop. The majority of pros on the tour have elbow drops, some of them are the sweetest strokes around as well.

How about the 3 ball diameter stroking distance? That is another thing I find odd. Look at all the Filipino players and how long their strokes are. If anything I would think a longer stroke would help a person in the long run once they learned how to control it. You get alot more power and accuracy from a long stroke.

bluewolf
07-08-2003, 04:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GreenLion:</font><hr>What i mean by that is that i no longer need to mussle the stroke,instead it is a nice smooth stroke from start to finish.Before the lesson i usually mussled the stroke to get the power i needed on hard and medium shots but now i hit the CB and i get those same results with much less effort.He also went over speed control but that something that im still alittle unclear about but im sure the vedio will clr that up.I really enjoyed the lesson and learned some great drills to help me learn to develope this effortless stroke. <hr /></blockquote>

I do not know what your stroke was like before, but before my first scott lesson, mine sure needed work. When I got my video, I spent more time watching what he did, than what I did. Afterall, he had the stroke and I wanted what he had. So I tried to watch his stroke a lot so that I could copy that.

A very good (A) player told me that is how he learned. He watched for years the stroke of someone very good and over time was able to copy his stroke. He also suggestied finding someone on accustat my same body build and try to copy their stroke. Well, I am not scotts same build, but trying to copy his stroke sure did help. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

We had a saying in AA, 'stick with the winners'. So that is a good idea for pool, too, I thought. I tried to pick people like scott who had very good fundamentals, and have tried to copy them. I really think this A player who gave me this advice was onto something

Scott Lee
07-08-2003, 09:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Irish:</font><hr> I dont get why so many instructors try to get rid of the elbow drop. The majority of pros on the tour have elbow drops, some of them are the sweetest strokes around as well.

How about the 3 ball diameter stroking distance? That is another thing I find odd. Look at all the Filipino players and how long their strokes are. If anything I would think a longer stroke would help a person in the long run once they learned how to control it. You get alot more power and accuracy from a long stroke. <hr /></blockquote>

Irish...I disagree that the majority of pros have elbow drop. Some do, some don't...the best players rarely drop their elbows on the majority of their shots.

In a nutshell, here is what I see as the perceived differnce: A stroke with a dropped elbow becomes a "muscled" or "pushed" shot...as opposed to the concept of using the weight of the cue and timing, to create the speed of the stroke. As I tell all my students...you can make any shot AND and get position using a muscled swing...but you CANNOT do it with finesse. A finesse stroke (cue weight combined with perfect timing, and NO elbow drop) produces a superior effect...meaning, simply, that you can achieve better accuracy, and better action on the CB, by 'throwing' the cuestick through the CB, rather than 'punching' it through.

As for the long bridge you describe...that is okay, as long as you get the necessary followthrough past the CB (4-6"), to produce the desired action on the CB, with the least amount of energy needed. Most people who try and copy the "filipino" stroke, do NOT get the necessary followthrough, which impedes the response they "expect" for a certain stroke speed. As soon as I have them either move a LITTLE bit closer with their bridge hand, or move slightly back on the grip, they get 2-3 times the action on the CB, that they were getting before, AND, they can do it with very little effort! So there you have it! JMO

Scott Lee

UWPoolGod
07-08-2003, 10:13 AM
you can make any shot AND and get position using a muscled swing...but you CANNOT do it with finesse. A finesse stroke (cue weight combined with perfect timing, and NO elbow drop) produces a superior effect...meaning, simply, that you can achieve better accuracy, and better action on the CB, by 'throwing' the cuestick through the CB, rather than 'punching' it through. &lt;--- Prof. Scott Lee

Yeah a friend of mine in Seattle as we were getting better, would look at how the other players shot and try to emulate their actions. He noticed some very good filipino and asian players dropping their elbows when they shot and became obsessed with the fact that they did it and were great players. So he tried to do it and ended up missing every ball for a couple of months. I have always maintained my own stroke since it is what I was born with and fits my game. I never needed to copy something for the sake of copying it. I am sure that I could definitely use some pointers on stance, stroke etc, but didn't see the importance of a complete stroke changeover.

Todd

Irish
07-08-2003, 01:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
Irish...I disagree that the majority of pros have elbow drop. Some do, some don't...the best players rarely drop their elbows on the majority of their shots.<hr /></blockquote>

I have to disagree. I just looked through afew of my accustat videosat various strokes. Tang Hoa, Alex Pagulayan, Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland, Ralf Souquet, Tommy Kennedy, all have elbow drops. Archer, Strickland, Souquet, and Pagulayan are all inclused in my list of the "best players". I dont have a tape of Bustamente, Yang, or Immonen, would be interesting to see if they drop their shoulders on their shots.

The one player I saw that had little ---&gt; no shoulder drop was Reyes. He had a little drop on some shots but he plays such a soft game you will rarely see a elbow drop even if there is one. The lighter the shot the less elbow drop you are going to have due to reduced cue speed and less follow through. If anything Reyes had a hugely delayed elbow drop that happens a second after the shot which does not really count as a true elbow drop since it is not really part of the stroke that afects the shot.

I only looked at 4 tapes and the majority of the players I looked at had the ole elbow drops. Archer actually surprised me as I had never noticed it on him before but his is quite prominent. Stricklands is quite extreme as well.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
In a nutshell, here is what I see as the perceived differnce: A stroke with a dropped elbow becomes a "muscled" or "pushed" shot...as opposed to the concept of using the weight of the cue and timing, to create the speed of the stroke. As I tell all my students...you can make any shot AND and get position using a muscled swing...but you CANNOT do it with finesse. A finesse stroke (cue weight combined with perfect timing, and NO elbow drop) produces a superior effect...meaning, simply, that you can achieve better accuracy, and better action on the CB, by 'throwing' the cuestick through the CB, rather than 'punching' it through.
<hr /></blockquote>

I have to disagree with this as well. Are you saying that Archer, Souquet, Strickland, Pagulayan stroke the ball with no finesse? The power produced by these players with the elbow drop is second to none. Strickalnd can produce as much spin/power on the ball with his elbow drop stroke as anyone in the world. The accuracy of these players is also as good as anyone with their elbow drop strokes.

You seem to say in the quote that the throwing of the cue stick is more prominent in the non-elbow drop strokes. This I would also disagree with. With no elbow drop at all the cue tip takes a arched path towards and through the cueball. At the backstroke the tip comes down towards the table, as you stroke towards the cueball the tip then makes a motion up towards the contact point on the cueball, on the followthrough the tip then dives downward towards the table afew inches past where the table is. What the elbow drop does is illiminate the constant changes in the tip height. With the elbow drop the tip is allowed on the followthrough to travel in a more straight path through the contact point on the cueball and the tip does not take the path to the table cloth nearly as quickly or at steep an angle. You are in effect comming through the contact point in a straight line instead of an arch as the non-elbow drop stroke must have. The elbow drop in this way is more of a throwing type stroke and allows the person to release the cue in the followthrough of the stroke through the ball much more effectively. What the elbow drop does is keeps the tip at a constant level longer. Eventually the tip will touch the cloth even with a elbow drop stroke but it will be a longer followthrough and the tip and shaft will be on a much more even plane with the table when the tip finally touches. With the non-elbow drop stroke if the person released the cue with a throw type stroke the tip would hit the cloth each stroke on the forward motion quite abruptly and by default the follwothrough of the stroke must be shorter then a person with an elbow drop can have.

It seems to me there is alot more "punching" of the shots in those people who have a non-elbow drop stroke. There is a much more pure, straight, and constant followthrough with the elbow drop in a stroke.

With the number of players with a elbow drop on the pro tour (I still say that over 50% of male pro players have an elbow drop, Scott Frost is another I just thought of that I did not have on accustats, most people I just cannot remember or dont have on tape to confirm) I dont see why instructors are so keen on getting rid of the elbow drop when it is the natural way a person is shooting. Teaching the elbow drop would be next to impossible and would be a bad idea for a person who naturally does not have one. One thing I will admit with the elbow drop is that it is another moving part in the stroke and therefore another part of the stroke that can have the yips under pressure. The people who play with elbow drops have learned to time the drop with the followthrough of the shot through pure muscle memory, it is a subconsious thing and not a consious motion. Once that natural motion is learned and mastered I believe the elbow drop is nt a hinderence at all but a tool. The perfect stroke with the elbow drop compared to the perfect stroke without the elbow drop I believe is equally effective if not a little more so. None of the good elbow drop stroke I have ever seen seem "muscled" or "pushed" as you mentioned. They seem like very pure and smooth stroke that go very straight through the cueball with pure intent and require less timing do to the more straight motion of the tip through the ball and the lack of the arched movement of the tip.

Things to think about. I might not have said it very clearly but this is one thing about the game I have researched quite alot. I hope you can get abit out of what I said that might make you understand some of your students natural strokes a little more and make those strokes work for them instead of completely reworking their strokes away from a elbow drop that has proved so successful for so many pro players.

bolo
07-08-2003, 02:19 PM
I would think that the fact that they may do it doesn't mean anything. When teaching a beginner they should start out the best way possible. They may develop habits later that but the best middle ground is to not drop your elbow. A lot of top players do all kinds of things they get away with you would never teach to a beginner. You want them to learn to play the game in it's simplest form. Are you saying if you don't now drop your elbow, you should, it will make you a better player? If you are not then there is no point to your argument, so whet are you trying to say?

bolo
07-08-2003, 02:27 PM
The less you do the better. You will also be much better off in the long run, even into your later years and require less practice to maintain your game, because there is less to go wrong. I have known some very good players with bad habits that got away with them for years and one day woke up and could not beat anyone. Even when they were playing good, if they were not playing everyday, you would see their games drop.

Ralph S.
07-08-2003, 03:37 PM
Sorry Irish, but I must disagree with what you are saying. I am not saying this because I am a Scott Lee student. I am saying I disagree because I had a severe problem with elbow drop affecting my stroke. I have also noticed this with many other players around me, both good and not so good players.

You are not necessarily letting go of the cue when you "throw" it thru the CB. You are merely using a more relaxed grip so that it is in a smooth, fluid motion.

Fran Crimi
07-08-2003, 04:49 PM
Irish, I thought that was an excellent post. Sorry to disagree with the others but I happen to think you're right on the money. I'm not sure how many pros actually use the elbow drop technique, I don't think it's the majority (quite a few, though), but when it's done right (without lifting your upper arm in the backstroke, and with releasing right at impact) it's a very powerful weapon and the ultimate tool in finessing shots.

Don't be surprised to find that most people don't agree with you. We're in the minority.

Like you, I've done extensive research on this myself, and I guess you could say I'm a convert.

I don't teach it all the time (in fact, I teach it very little) because I consider it a very advanced techinque. But I do it myself on several types of shots, and I show it to students who are willing to try.

I don't knock anyone who prefers the other method, but I don't think that anyone is in a position to say one method is better than the other. Some pros prefer one method, some prefer the other, and some mix it up. I mix it up in my own game.

Fran

Irish
07-08-2003, 08:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> Are you saying if you don't now drop your elbow, you should, it will make you a better player? If you are not then there is no point to your argument, so whet are you trying to say? <hr /></blockquote>

What I said is that if a person is naturally inclined to drop their elbow on their stroke then this is not a negative thing. I am saying that if a instructor get a student who naturally drops their elbow in their stroke then that instructor should not be so quick to try to remove that elbow drop from that persons game as there are alot of positive things about having a elbow drop and there is no real proof that having a elbow drop or no elbow drop makes people better players. There are tip players who do both, and I am talking about ALOT of top players, not rare occurances. A elbow drop is NOT a bad habit, it is a viable way to stroke the ball that is both proven and has very positive reasons for being so effective for so many top players.

You ask me if I think people without elbow drops should work towards aquiring an elbow drop, I already went through this on my original post quite clearly. If a person does not normally drop their elbow then this would be almost impossible to teach and should not even be attempted. This is something a person naturally aquires and learns to do or they wont do it at all.

Does dropping your elbow make you a better player? Who knows. There are definately some interesting advantages to it I went over in my long post you seem to have glanced over at best Bolo. It is a very proven and effective method of shooting as is evidence from so many top players using it. It should NOT be taught out of peoples games who already use it.

Fran knows this it seems. Perhaps she has some other observations she has noticed about the stroke.

bluewolf
07-08-2003, 09:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Irish, I thought that was an excellent post. Sorry to disagree with the others but I happen to think you're right on the money. I'm not sure how many pros actually use the elbow drop technique, I don't think it's the majority (quite a few, though), but when it's done right (without lifting your upper arm in the backstroke, and with releasing right at impact) it's a very powerful weapon and the ultimate tool in finessing shots.

Don't be surprised to find that most people don't agree with you. We're in the minority.

Like you, I've done extensive research on this myself, and I guess you could say I'm a convert.

I don't teach it all the time (in fact, I teach it very little) because I consider it a very advanced techinque. But I do it myself on several types of shots, and I show it to students who are willing to try.


Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Agree or not, it seems that Irish presented a good argument. As far as your advance techniques go Fran, this has set my wheels turning. When you say advanced, do mean that these techniwues are for players above the intermediate level? i remember you saying something about this months ago, right after my first scott lesson.

I am a little more open minded now, although, I may not meet the requirements for advanced techniques. I do drop my elbow on the break so far, and that is about it. I tried scotts method for that and found that putting my weight into the break resulted in better results for me, right or wrong. Otherwize, no elbow drop, but always interested in new ideas,(though may have to file them for later if over my head) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec
07-08-2003, 10:18 PM
Irish, I would say it all depends on where you hold the cue ,what shot you are playing and how far away the OB is.

The critical momments in the stroke are what happens just before and just after the cue strikes the Qb.
[ Critical Zone ] .If the cue goes through the Qb in a straight line , the Qb will also go in a straight line.
Elbow drop is only a bad thing if it happens before you hit the Qb.
Elbow drop is a natural action when playing at pace . The cue goes further through the Qb ,so the hand must follow the cue , hence the elbow drop.
For most simple shots, if you arm is in the perpendicular , you can play most shots without any significant elbow drop.
I think you will find that the most players you have noticed with E.Dp, hold the cue a little shorter.Then , on almost all shots you will see ED. But NEVER before the Qb is struck.

Bad ED is commonly caused by holding the cue too short or not being low enough over the table.

When teaching stroke ,you want to keep it simple. Advising someone not to drop their elbow is the way to go ,IMO. This is the basic stroke for short/medium shots which is what you will be teaching a beginner. You want to get them to hit the Qb by only using the forearm .

I dont think you or Scott are wrong , you are just talking about different things.


Qtec

Fred Agnir
07-09-2003, 06:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Irish:</font><hr> You ask me if I think people without elbow drops should work towards aquiring an elbow drop, I already went through this on my original post quite clearly. If a person does not normally drop their elbow then this would be almost impossible to teach and should not even be attempted. This is something a person naturally aquires and learns to do or they wont do it at all. <hr /></blockquote>To add to this, lately, the standard teaching idealogy is to keep variables and movement to a minimum. On the surface, this seems like a good idea. People even say "keep it simple." I've thought however, that on many power and finess shots, restricting the motion to a minimum of body parts is actually more difficult, not more simple. I think it often restricts the natural physical motion (ergonomics?).

The beauty of the human physical machine is the ability to coordinate many body motions. Those that can do so with the most efficiency for that particular activity become good or great.

Let's take easy examples of not moving just one body part.

free throws
swimming
bowliing

Can you imagine how difficult these would be if we just "kept it simple" by limiting the motion to one or two body parts?

I'm not saying that everyone should start dropping the elbow, but I am saying that if a person can coordinate the elbow drop and forearm motion (which many people can), it shouldn't be looked down upon as poor technique.

Fred

GreenLion
07-10-2003, 11:27 PM
I agree 100% with the advise he gave you.Im hoping by my next lesson that my stroke is very close to Scott Lee's cuase i saw Scott make some shots that amazed me!Its been a few day since my lesson now and im starting to consistently make shots that before if i made them it was pure luck.Its becuase of what Scott tuaght me that Dream Shots are now quickly turning into reality shots. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan
07-11-2003, 08:30 AM
Fran and Irish,

I'm trying to get a mental picture of the "elbow drop" done as observed in the pro players. Is this elbow drop solely a result of upper-arm movement, ie rotation from a stationary shoulder? I wouldn't think it would be shoulder drop as well, as that would imply a lot of upper-body movement.

I've watched tapes of myself, and my upper arm rotates forward/down some at the end of my stroke. This results in some drop of the elbow (and reduces tip dipping) without other body movement. It would be easier to convince myself this isn't harmful, than try to eliminate it completely /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

SpiderMan

bluewolf
07-11-2003, 09:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Fran and Irish,

I've watched tapes of myself, and my upper arm rotates forward/down some at the end of my stroke. This results in some drop of the elbow (and reduces tip dipping) without other body movement. It would be easier to convince myself this isn't harmful, than try to eliminate it completely /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

I think that Ray's is more like yours. Mine is the way Scott teaches it. It is quite obvious who is the better player. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif What I was hearing from Irish is to not force a person into something that is not natural for them.

That is what I got from him anyway. For Ray to hold his elbow up as tight as I can, ie zero elbow drop seems unatural to him. he still does the freeze and does not pop up on the shot.

Perhaps body build and type of muscle makeup could have something to do with what is natural too. Just guessing.

Also, my karate punch retract position, which I did for 15 years was almost exact position to the elbow position scott teaches. Once I got what he was saying, it is just ingrained in me to the point it is natural. For someone else, that same elbow position, I am guessing, would be torture...

Just throwing out ideas.

bw

DoomCue
07-11-2003, 09:52 AM
I also believe that there's absolutely nothing wrong with dropping the elbow. In general, I agree with the "keep as few moving parts as possible" mentality, but there's an overriding principle here: maintaining a levelness throughout the stroke. Some mechanism or combination of mechanisms is used in order to maintain a level stroke - excessive wrist movement, elbow drop, or shoulder movement. Otherwise, the tip would have to come up on every shot. Whichever mechanism(s) is (are) used shouldn't matter, as long as the results are reproducible and consistent.

-djb

Qtec
07-11-2003, 09:58 AM
Word of advice.

Never try to analyze your own stroke .



Take a lesson from a teacher not a player.

If you put your shoulder into the shot , you have a problem .


Tip , if you are intent on filming youself , just hold the cue a litte longer and see if there is a difference.


Qtec

Irish
07-11-2003, 10:18 AM
Spiderman, there should be no shoulder movement. I had a little trouble understanding what you were meaning by rotation and such. Watch this clip where Mika Immonen stroked in the final ball to win the 9-ball world championships (another top pro who has a elbow drop). The clip is a perfect example from straight forward of a elbow drop.

Notice the posistion of his elbow right before he strokes the ball and the motion of the elbow downward as he strokes through the ball.

http://www.matchroomsport.com/video/P2_2.mpg

If that link does not work go to matchroomsport.com and you can get to the clips section on that site.

SpiderMan
07-11-2003, 11:04 AM
Link worked.

Yes, that's exactly what I was talking about. His elbow drops due to downward rotation of his upper arm from the shoulder (shoulder itself doesn't move), which is what I see myself doing on the videos. Apparently this is not something that necessarily needs to be corrected.

I also notice his upper arm is slightly "cocked" out of line with the shot. His arm is not entirely in the same plane with the stroke.

SpiderMan

bluewolf
07-11-2003, 11:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> If you put your shoulder into the shot , you have a problem .

Qtec

<hr /></blockquote>

I can buy into some people doing a slight elbow drop per what is natural. What I do not get is when people say dropping the elbow gives them better finess. Do they mean better cue ball speed control?

Don't get the wrong idea. Not dropping the elbow works for me and it makes my stroke straight. I also have an extremely loose grip and loose at the wrist.Is it posible to get the same finess (assuming I am understanding what you are saying) from a loose grip and a loose wrist?

If someone said that this seemed to help that person, that is one thing, but to say it in general, what scientific principal are they talking about.? Physics, please.

Please do not take this the wrong way. I am just trying to figure out what some people are talking about here relating to finess.

btw-went through months with braces and everything else to try to make my wrist firm and grip tighter and finally went with what was natural, which was loose,extremely loose.

bw

Snyder1
07-11-2003, 11:31 AM
As a relative new player, I am having a hard time determining what is actually meant by elbow drop. I'm trying to picture dropping my elbow slightly on a shot (I read early on that one should imagine a wine glass balancing on your elbow &amp; DON'T spill it on your stroke) - so I don't think I drop my elbow, but can't be sure. Can somebody put into words what exactly elbow drop is so I can visualize it ... thanks.

John

Irish
07-11-2003, 11:56 AM
The difference in finess the people might be talking about is the fact that with a elbow drop you can have a very long stroke with alot of followthrough as well. One player that comes to mind who has no elbow drop on the pro tour is Paul Potier. This guys elbow does not move in the slightest. He has a very compact and effective stroke but from a outsiders point of view his stroke will look nowhere near as smooth as the long flowing stroke of Strickland, Bustamente, Immonen, or other people with elbow drops. With no elbow drop at all in the stroke you are limited to how long you can bridge from the cueball and how far you can followthrough on your stroke. That is totally due to the arching path of the stroke with no drop.

Long followthroughs and long bridges when used by a pro level player always look super smooth and it looks like they have tons of finess with those strokes. Potier is an awesome player and his stroke works as good as anyones but when you watch him his stroke does not look like a fluid motion like those players with the long smooth strokes. Potier's stroke is very compact and short due to zero elbow drop. Potier looks like a machine when he is stroking the ball though and with the bare minimum of motion he has in his stroke as long as he sets up right on a ball the chances of missing a shot are nill. While he looks solid Potier does not have a fluid and smooth stroke.

Something Scott said early on in the thread about the elbow drop seeming to "punch" the ball. If you watch Potier's stroke since it is so short both in bridge and followthrough he will actually seem to be "punching" at the ball more then someone like Strickland who can use alot longer stroke and seems to more fluidly stroke through the ball. The elbow drop stroke when done right by a top player usually looks like a smoother and seems to have more "finess" due to the length and followthrough. It is all appearance in my mind, Potier can finess shots with the best of them, it just wont look as smooth but he will get equal results.

Irish
07-11-2003, 11:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snyder1:</font><hr> As a relative new player, I am having a hard time determining what is actually meant by elbow drop. I'm trying to picture dropping my elbow slightly on a shot (I read early on that one should imagine a wine glass balancing on your elbow &amp; DON'T spill it on your stroke) - so I don't think I drop my elbow, but can't be sure. Can somebody put into words what exactly elbow drop is so I can visualize it ... thanks.

John <hr /></blockquote>

Watch the clip of Mika I posted near the end of page 1 of this thread. It is a perfect exapmle of a elbow drop in a stroke.

Snyder1
07-11-2003, 01:09 PM
Ahhhhhh, I've got it now ... thanks !!

JS

SPetty
07-11-2003, 03:22 PM
Great post, thread and thoughts, Irish. Thanks.

heater451
07-11-2003, 04:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> . . .I think it often restricts the natural physical motion (ergonomics?). . . .

Fred<hr /></blockquote>ergonomics---The applied science of equipment design, as for the workplace, intended to maximize productivity by reducing operator fatigue and discomfort.

kinetics/dynamics---Of or relating to energy or to objects in motion

biomechanics---The study of the mechanics of a living body, especially of the forces exerted by muscles and gravity on the skeletal structure.


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