PDA

View Full Version : Table length draw- how far from the rail?



hogman
07-06-2003, 04:17 PM
Hello,

I the recent broadcast of the US open on BCTV grady was talking about a table length draw. When people talk about a table length draw shot, how far is the cue ball off the bottom rail? Is it far enough off that the bridge hand can be fully placed on the table, or is close, so that you have to "poke" down at tha ball?

Also, I still can't do a good table length draw, so if you all aren't sick of giving hints on good draw I would love to hear them.

Alfie
07-06-2003, 04:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hogman:</font><hr>Also, I still can't do a good table length draw, so if you all aren't sick of giving hints on good draw I would love to hear them. <hr /></blockquote>Hit it lower and faster.

07-06-2003, 05:01 PM
The term "table length draw" is just a distance reference, and doesn't necessarily refer to fixed points on the table. Rather, it refers to roughly a table's length between where the object ball is struck and where the cueball lands. So you can hit a table length draw shot starting in the center of the table, drawing back to the rail and back out to the center. With the proper technique, table-length draw shots can be hit with an elevated cue (as in off the rail) as well as the usually recommended near-level cue, but it's generally more difficult elevated because the slightest bit of unintentional english will cause the cueball to swerve from the aim path.

I was having trouble with consistency in my draw until I recently took a day-long lesson from Scott Lee. I strongly recommend you seek out professional instruction if you're serious about improving your game, and Scott will come to your home or your local pool to work with you. I'm certainly no instructor, but I can tell you what I've learned over the years and from what Scott taught me. The key to hitting good draw shots is to hit really low with a smooth stroke and proper follow through. A lot of power isn't necessary, contrary to popular belief. With some slight adjustments to my bridge length and follow through, and appreciating the different between lag, medium, and break speed strokes, Scott taught me how to do a consistent table length draw with a medium stroke (just above lag speed) and 2 tips low on the cueball. My biggest hurdle was hitting the CB that low -- I had a hard time training my mind that it was okay to hit that low, which I wasn't used to, and that combined with my insufficient follow through was responsible for my lack of draw consistency before.

Rod
07-06-2003, 06:30 PM
Like David said not necessarily fixed points. I refer to a real table length draw a distance of at least 6' or more between the two balls. That plus no helper rails with side english. Comming off a rail with side makes it a much easier shot. In both of these cases the c/b comes back to it's starting point. Both shots the c/b has traveled a big percentage of table lenght and returned the same distance or more.

START(
%AK1E3%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EJ8G1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%Pl2V1
%UL7F0%Vl0U9%YC7C9%Zk9V0
)END

wei (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/)

The one ball really doesn't take much effort because of low right and the use of the side rail. The 5 however takes a bit more of low and a better stroke. Amazing enough neither shot has a lot of low remaining after contact to get back to the original starting point. A lot less than people imagine, especially on the one ball.

To draw the ball better, relax your grip and aim lower. Stroke through the c/b, don't hit at the c/b.

Rod

Chris Cass
07-06-2003, 06:50 PM
Tap, Tap, Tap.

Too many players make the mistake of tensing up their grip causing less smooth of a stroke and fail to reach their objectives. IMO

I practice this drill for hrs. and with a smooth stroke and I draw this ball as much as the rear rail and back to center table on new 860. 9 ft. table.

START(
%AN8X7%Pg7T5%QY4M4%Ur4R3%VO4X4%WP4X7%Xg0T7%Y[2N5%Zs4Q9%eB5b5

)END

Draw isn't my objectives through. It's a smooth straight stroke and follow-through. If my straight-in's are straight and the ball draws straight back on the same line. It eliminates one variable in the game. Then, if I do miss it's because I hit the ob in the wrong place. Just5 a tidbit I wanted to share.

Hi Ya Rod, Scott says all good things about you..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~good shooting Hogman.

Rod
07-06-2003, 07:13 PM
Hi Chris,
Did you make it down to the pool room this weekend? BTW Chris, Scott says all good things about you too. Scott says a lot of things. LOL That shot you diagramed is a good example of what to expect during some games. Like you said, draw isn't the main objective. It's a smooth stroke straight through the ball and one side benefit is accuracy.

Are you ready to take on the guys and gals at the CCB tourney? That should be a lot of fun. You need some of that after going through your nightmare. Heide and Christ deserve some fun also. You all need a break. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod

tateuts
07-06-2003, 10:26 PM
There is something critical in drawing the cue ball that is often overlooked. The shape of the cue tip is really important. As you play the tip tends to flatten out and needs to be reshaped. It should be well rounded, about the same shape as the tip of your little finger. If you put the cue tip against the ball, low, the rounded edge of the tip should sit almost flat against the ball. Scruff it up good and put the tip nice and low, stroke right through the ball (don't jab), and you'll get a nice draw.

The shots where the cue ball travels 4 or 5 feet before striking the object ball, then drawing back are extreme shots for advanced players - they're really difficult. Table length draw just means the cue ball travels back that far, not forward full length then back - that don't happen!

Chris

Deeman
07-07-2003, 06:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> Table length draw just means the cue ball travels back that far, not forward full length then back - that don't happen!

Chris


Chris,

Sorry, but that is wrong. Down and back table length draw shots do happen and are quite easy once you loosen up and hit low enough.

Dee

pooltchr
07-07-2003, 07:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> My biggest hurdle was hitting the CB that low -- I had a hard time training my mind that it was okay to hit that low, <hr /></blockquote>

One point. Where you are aiming is not necessarly where the cue tip is making contact. Much as there is a different aiming point than contact point on an object ball with a cut shot, there is a different aiming point and contact point of the tip to the cue ball. The reason is that the tip is rounded. If you strike the cue ball below center, it is the TOP of the tip that makes contact. Strike above center, the BOTTOM of the tip makes contact. There is only one place you can contact the cb with the center of the tip. Even though it looks like you are aiming very low, you are not making contact that low on the cb.
Steve

07-07-2003, 09:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> My biggest hurdle was hitting the CB that low -- I had a hard time training my mind that it was okay to hit that low, <hr /></blockquote>

One point. Where you are aiming is not necessarly where the cue tip is making contact...<hr /></blockquote>Exactly. And not only does the roundness of the tip effects tip placement, but also the angle that you look down on the tip and cueball. Scott recognized that, since I'm a tall guy and stand more upright when I shoot (chin over cue probably 8 inches or so) my perspective is somewhat skewed looking down on the ball -- I had kind of a parallax effect going against me. When I thought I was at centerball, it turns out I was half-tip or so high, and what I thought was extreme low was actually only about a tip low. It took some practice before I could get comfortable with the adjusted perspective. In fact, I would tend to force myself to overcompensate or dive the cuetip at impact, resulting in a lot of embarassing jumped/scooped cueballs during the drill. I eventually worked that out and have little trouble hitting the cueball low again. It made all the difference in the world, too!

A quick check for this is to have a friend or a video camera spot you from the side at cueball level while you line the tip up on the ball.

RedHell
07-07-2003, 09:09 AM
One way I know to mesure you stroke precision is to use a stripe ball. Centenials works good for that.

Use a stripe and place it in the center of the table with the stripe paralelle to the long rail and the number facing the center pocket. Place anonther ball in front and stroke the stripe to pocket the ball with maximum draw. You should be facing the number on the stripe.

Use a lot of chalk and it will leave a blue mark on the stripe ball (you might need to clean it first not to get confused). This little exercise will help you see how low you hit and how much lower you can get.

07-07-2003, 10:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> One way I know to mesure you stroke precision is to use a stripe ball. Centenials works good for that.

Use a stripe and place it in the center of the table with the stripe paralelle to the long rail and the number facing the center pocket. Place anonther ball in front and stroke the stripe to pocket the ball with maximum draw. You should be facing the number on the stripe.

Use a lot of chalk and it will leave a blue mark on the stripe ball (you might need to clean it first not to get confused). This little exercise will help you see how low you hit and how much lower you can get. <hr /></blockquote>Yes, Scott and I did that as well. That's what he used to give me a point of reference as to how low to hit. On a Centennial striped ball, two tips low roughly equates to aligning the top side of the tip with the bottom edge of the stripe when the stripe is parallel to the table.

RedHell
07-07-2003, 01:41 PM
I do it facing the number using the black circle around the number as a reference. Getting a hit outside the circle is rather dificult but will produce a lot of draw with less power.

I don't have a ball in front of me but from what I can remember the stripe is about as wide as the black circle !!!

TomBrooklyn
07-08-2003, 09:27 PM
I thought the lowest you can contact a striped ball is so the chalk mark from your tip is on the circle that surrounds the number. Is that right? I guess you could aim a little below the circle because the top part of the tip will contact the ball.

Also, when trying to apply a lot of draw, sometimes I get the dreaded flying cue ball. Sometimes it has happened to me in bunches one right after the other, and it made me wonder if I had a glitch in my stroke at that particular time, or if I just kept repeatedly hitting too low on the ball. When the cue ball jumps up, could it be due to stroking improperly, or is it just because of hitting tooooo low?

=TomBk

07-08-2003, 09:39 PM
Tom, I don't have a striped ball in front of me, but you can definitely hit below the bottom of the stripe. I haven't paid close attention to the circle around the number to see if that coincides with the edge of the stripe or not.

I too had the problem with hopping the cueball when Scott showed me to hit this low. It seemed to be caused by my cuetip taking a dive at the point of contact, probably due to my old longer bridge length. As your grip hand hits your chest to complete the swing, it lifts the butt (unless you drop your elbow) which pushes the tip down toward the table. My long bridge caused me to have no more than an inch of follow through, which meant the tip was diving as it hit the ball. By moving my bridge hand up 2 inches and my grip hand back 2 inches, I was able to get 4 more inches of follow through and greatly reduced my scooping of the CB. I still do it occassionally, but then again I'm still in the awkward stages of adjusting to this new bridge length. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

RedHell
07-09-2003, 11:35 AM
The secret of a good draw shot is a smooth level stroke with a good follow thru. Power will only be relevant to the distance between the object ball and the cue ball.

If you get a hopping cue ball, it is surely caused by dropping the tip before contact (like David mentionned), unless you are aiming at the cloth and not the ball.

You can play a draw shot with only the width of you major finger between the clothe and the cue. That will provide a hit on if not lower the cirle of the stripe. Make sure the cue is leveled. If you have an elevated cue while aiming that low, it's very likely that you will scoop the q-ball.

When trying to obtain a lot of draw, stay calm an stoke clean, don't try to overpower the shot and make sure your body stays down thru the entire stroke. Sometimes, when trying to have a lot of draw, we tend to get up on the shot wich drops the tip down and result in the Flying Cue Ball.

Start close to your OB (6 inches) with a medium stroke (lag strenght), then, once the draw bites clean and your stroke is smooth, move the object ball further away and maintain the same stroke.

I think you can shoot with a medium stroke to draw back to your original spot up to about 4 to 5 feet. After that you probably will need to increase the power of your stroke, but remain calm and smooth, just increase the speed a bit.

Table length draw shot aren't that hard, once your comfortable with your draw stroke.

Ross
07-09-2003, 02:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> Tom, I don't have a striped ball in front of me, but you can definitely hit below the bottom of the stripe. ... <hr /></blockquote>

David, I don't think you can without miscueing. You can aim below the bottom of the stripe, but the rounded cuetip makes contact with the ball at a point above the aim point. To test this make sure the stripe is exactly horizontal to the bed of the table. Then aim low and then look at your chalk mark. I predict it will be slightly above the bottom of the stripe, and maybe occasionally right on that line, for your best draw shots. You will also likely miscue a number of times as you try to get the chalk mark that low.

07-09-2003, 05:07 PM
Perhaps you're right Ross, but that's definitely where I was told to aim. In fact, when Scott placed my cuetip there I mentioned that it looked too low because I could still see white between the top of the tip and the bottom of the stripe, and he told me "No problem, you can hit there."

Yes, I had lots of miscues trying to get used to it, but it was apparently due to tip dive. After much practice, I can aim there and hit without miscueing, but I haven't looked for the chalk mark lately to see where I'm really hitting.

I'll go upstairs and experiment a bit... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Slasher
07-09-2003, 07:29 PM
One point I have noticed in teaching people how to play is that they often are not striking the cueball where they think they are.
You must make sure you have one last look at the cueball before you stroke the shot.
Hit deep and long centre ball, keeping the cue level to the table.
excessive power is not really necessary, just a smooth well timed stroke.

ceebee
07-10-2003, 10:46 AM
.... another factor in Drawing the Cue Ball is sometimes overlooked. If the Cue ball is stroked very hard, it may not be able to DRAW that far back, even though the stroke is pure. The forward speed of the Cue Ball has to be overcome by the backward rotation of the Cue Ball. Collision with the Object Ball helps to slow/stop the Cue Ball, so that DRAW is accomplished. Try that THEORY &amp; see what happens.....

TomBrooklyn
07-10-2003, 11:26 AM
If the cueball hits the object ball full, all the energy and speed is transferred to the object ball, so I would think that a cueball traveling fast will stop just as well as one traveling slower. As a practical matter, however, hitting the cueball harder requires a faster stroke, and the faster the stroke the more skill is required to contact the cueball at exactly the desired point and to maintain accuracy in the aim line.

=TomBk