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View Full Version : Which way to Gamble?



griffith_d
07-10-2003, 11:07 AM
Since gambling is on a lot of people's mind, mine included, which way do you prefer to gamble? Gamble $$$ per game? or gamble for $$$ in a race to a certain number of games.

I prefer to gamble in a race, because per game you could end up with the win of only one game. I do not want to play 15 games at $5 a game and win 8 to 7 and get $5. I would like to multiple the amount per game, say $5 times the number of games that could be played, in this case 15, and the winner gets the total amount.

Griff

Karatemom
07-10-2003, 11:20 AM
I haven't seen any player around here ever gamble per game. They always play a race, or per set. It is a bit more fair that way. Almost anyone can get lucky and win one game. The only game where they do gamble per game is one pocket. Sometimes, one game of one pocket lasts as long as a race to 7, and worth just as much, LOL.

Heide

UWPoolGod
07-10-2003, 11:21 AM
I prefer races as well if I am playing someone tough. But then again I don't play $$$ sets either. Any time a good player could run off several games in a row. If I am playing someone I know I can win then I will leave it up to them. Heck, the most money I have ever won in one sitting was in a per game match. They just don't know when to quit.

Tom_In_Cincy
07-10-2003, 01:07 PM
Seen these types of matchups alot around the this area.

Low $$$ single game ($1 to $5 a game)

High $$$ race to whatever (with or without spots) (for Hundred$)

Very High $$$ 7 to whatever AHEAD.(Thou$ands or more)

Mostly 9 ball matches, but there are some pretty strong Bank pool and One Pocket players in this area also.

RedHell
07-10-2003, 01:26 PM
Tom the 7 to whatever ahead is winning when you manage a lead of 7 or whatever ? Correct ?

Tom_In_Cincy
07-10-2003, 01:27 PM
correct

RedHell
07-10-2003, 01:29 PM
So we are talking some long game here. I mean stringing 7 games to the lead could take hours... I expect that this is played with winner's break LMAO !

SpiderMan
07-10-2003, 01:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Karatemom:</font><hr> I haven't seen any player around here ever gamble per game. They always play a race, or per set. It is a bit more fair that way. Almost anyone can get lucky and win one game. The only game where they do gamble per game is one pocket. Sometimes, one game of one pocket lasts as long as a race to 7, and worth just as much, LOL.
Heide <hr /></blockquote>

Same here, except that on coin tables it's always by the game. Winner collects for the one game and stays up, next challenger racks, loser gets back in line with the other challengers. Best way to make money fast if you're top dog, as no one ever asks for a spot and they get back in line as a matter of pride (cowboy mentality).

SpiderMan

Tom_In_Cincy
07-10-2003, 01:47 PM
A couple of years ago, at the Derby City Classic, two guys matched up for some really big cash and were playing 9 ball 10 (or maybe it was 11) games ahead.

After 2 days, they were still playing. Both got to the hill plenty of times, but no winner, they decided to quit EVEN. It must have cost them a couple of hundered in just the table time alone.

UWPoolGod
07-10-2003, 01:49 PM
There are .25 tables at the bar I go to down here, and usuall we play $1/game at least. We'll have 5 or 6 guys lined up wanting to play. And they keep coming back after you have held the table for a few hours.

We have also done that with 3Ball at $2 per stick. Get a bunch of the bar bangers in there thinking "how hard is that?...I can do that." 5 or 6 sticks that keep coming back even though you run off 6 or more straight 3's.

RedHell
07-10-2003, 01:51 PM
OUCH !!!!

My 20$ race to 7 has a better earning/hour than that ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

RedHell
07-10-2003, 01:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UWPoolGod:</font><hr> There are .25 tables at the bar I go to down here, and usuall we play $1/game at least. We'll have 5 or 6 guys lined up wanting to play. And they keep coming back after you have held the table for a few hours.

We have also done that with 3Ball at $2 per stick. Get a bunch of the bar bangers in there thinking "how hard is that?...I can do that." 5 or 6 sticks that keep coming back even though you run off 6 or more straight 3's. <hr /></blockquote>

Do you have a break shot on 3 balls or just power and hope ?

UWPoolGod
07-10-2003, 02:01 PM
There are a couple of different breaking spots with differing english that gives a better opportunity for a ball to go. Depends on the table, rails etc. But once it is found you can duplicate it a reasonably high percentage.

But then again there is always the slam technique. I have yet to get a 1 shot inning in 3 ball, but a friend of mine did just from slamming and getting lucky on ricochets.

bolo
07-10-2003, 02:02 PM
I like by the game. Sets have an automatic cut off that has to be overcome to continue. I don't care if I play for hours even, that is the fun of playing. I have guys I have played with for years and there may not be a $1000. difference, but we have had hundreds of hours of good play. If winning money is your goal, I also believe in the long run I will win more money by the game, instead of giving the guy a point where he can just quit because the set ended. A player that would never play a $50. set will easily lose $50. or a $100. at $5. or $10. a game. The game is easy to get going because of the low bet. I have won thousands having only started at a few dollars a game. You never know what will happen.

tateuts
07-10-2003, 02:06 PM
In 9 ball, I like playing by the set, races to 7 or 9, and hopefully 3 or more sets. I prefer to play stiff competition. I like playing by the set because it more closely matches tournament play.

A lot of good players swear by playing for the game in a relatively even match. The logic is in that if you are playing "per game" you are theorectically trying harder in each game, whereas in a set, if one player falls too far behind, he may slack off in order to get to the next set.

There is some sense to that.

Chris

RedHell
07-10-2003, 02:55 PM
OK on a different tone but still on the gambling subject.

How do you guys walk up to someone and start gambling if you don't know the player ?

How can you tell if you can match up, if you need weight or not ?

How do you avoid being hustled ?

DoomCue
07-10-2003, 03:10 PM
Easy. Don't do that. You should always do some research on an opponent, whether it's through word of mouth, or from local reputation, or from watching your prospective opponent play others. NEVER gamble with a complete unknown unless you are extremely confident in your playing ability (i.e. Tony Watson or Eric Durbin). Use your research and your own self-analysis to determine how you match up.

-djb

bolo
07-10-2003, 03:31 PM
"NEVER gamble with a complete unknown unless you are extremely confident in your playing ability (i.e. Tony Watson or Eric Durbin). Use your research and your own self-analysis to determine how you match up."

I think you over rate the average guy looking to play. Play anybody, what do you care. You will know soon enough if you like the game or not and an adjustment can be made if needed. If you are waiting for a guarantee you will never play. If you play a certain speed you know what it takes to beat you.

griffith_d
07-10-2003, 03:33 PM
<hr /></blockquote> OK on a different tone but still on the gambling subject. <hr /></blockquote>

<hr /></blockquote>How do you guys walk up to someone and start gambling if you don't know the player ? <hr /></blockquote>

You can, but keep the bet low to start and you make it.

<hr /></blockquote>How can you tell if you can match up, if you need weight or not ? <hr /></blockquote>

You cannot tell,...you try it and see.

<hr /></blockquote>How do you avoid being hustled ? <hr /></blockquote>

It they raise the be too high or too quick, you know something is up. Say no or ask for a spot if you feel you are losing too bad.

<hr /></blockquote>

But other than that, the best way is to watch awhile. If it is your first time to the place,...then you are considered fresh meat. If it is your normal place, then you take your time if you can.

Griff

DoomCue
07-10-2003, 03:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> "NEVER gamble with a complete unknown unless you are extremely confident in your playing ability (i.e. Tony Watson or Eric Durbin). Use your research and your own self-analysis to determine how you match up."

I think you over rate the average guy looking to play. Play anybody, what do you care. You will know soon enough if you like the game or not and an adjustment can be made if needed. If you are waiting for a guarantee you will never play. If you play a certain speed you know what it takes to beat you. <hr /></blockquote>

When it comes to money, I don't think anybody should mess around. Like anything else dealing with money, people should be informed consumers. You'd never buy a car without seeing it, or knowing the manufacturer's reputation, or test-driving it. The same thinking should be applied to gambling in pool. Know who you're playing, because you never know when the hustle is on. If you don't know who you're playing, that's a good way not only to lose money, but to lose lots of money by getting hustled. If you play a set looking to determine a spot, and then lose again, then set a new spot, then lose again, then set a new spot, then lose again, and then find out that you've just played somebody like Leonardo Andam or John Schmidt, what would you think? Probably something like, "Man, I wish I'd never been in that game!" You just got hustled, simply because you didn't know who your opponent was. It's not about looking for a guarantee, it's about looking for a level playing field.

Gambling is done by people who think they have a chance to win. Hustling involves creating the illusion that the sucker has that chance. Better to be cautious than to be a sucker. RedHell specifically asked how to avoid being hustled. A good way to avoid being hustled is to know who the hustlers are. The BEST way is simply not to gamble at all.

Ralph S.
07-10-2003, 04:06 PM
Hi Tom. I will gamble in most ways possible. I usually play sets for pre-determined amounts and I also have a standing $5 a rack 8 ball engagement every Friday evening. My friend and I really enjoy the Friday gig and it usually lasts around five hours. I play the sets after tourneys usually unless I pop into the local room on an off day from work. Those matches range anywhere from $10-$50 a set.

griffith_d
07-10-2003, 04:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph S.:</font><hr> Hi Tom. I will gamble in most ways possible. I usually play sets for pre-determined amounts and I also have a standing $5 a rack 8 ball engagement every Friday evening. My friend and I really enjoy the Friday gig and it usually lasts around five hours. I play the sets after tourneys usually unless I pop into the local room on an off day from work. Those matches range anywhere from $10-$50 a set. <hr /></blockquote>

Sounds like me,..I have a standing few people that I play for the standard amount before or after the tournament. Some show up sometimes,...some show up everytime,...we switch who plays who. Every once in awhile I will play someone better than me,...knowing full well that I will eventually lose,...but sometimes I don't. I just like trying to beat the better person and see how good I can do.

Griff

tateuts
07-10-2003, 05:26 PM
I just look at gambling money as the "entertainment fund" anyway. If someone can beat me out of it, more power to him, so I'll play anybody.

People who get "hustled" are well deserving of it. A good hustler knows how to work people. Greed and ego are the two main ways to bait people. Their tricks are usually pretty lame and transparent. They are like used car salesman in that sense.

Bolo's statement about the hustler calling everyone "nits' is classic. As soon as they have to play someone who can play, they're the nit. They quit you so fast you can't believe it.

Cuban Joe was my favorite hustler of all time. He was funny and charismatic, but at the same time vicious. He didn't make the mark feel "bad" about losing. He was more of a great hustler than a great player. He would book losing games but he would quit right away. He could milk a sucker and the guy would walk away laughing.

Truly, most of the hustlers lives are pathetic. I think they only do it because they don't have a way of making money any other way. I think most would get out of it if they could.

Chris

bolo
07-10-2003, 09:26 PM
The last line of my post explains it. I know my speed, it takes a hell of a player to beat me and if he tries to hustle me, he will find himself stuck. The average guy that comes around looking to play is no champion. I get called often to come down there is a guy wanting to play. It almost never fails, the guy would have gotten beat by any one of a number of players if they gave him a try. After the match they say, "Man I wish I had played that guy". The real fear has nothing to do with the money. It is the fear of looking and feeling like a sucker, they are more afraid of that then anything else. If you are a good player you should not have that fear. You know it takes a very good player to beat you and how can you embarrass yourself if you get beat by a better player. The same guy that won't play pool will go to the track and lose his money but it doesn't bother him. He can just blame it on the horse or the jockey or whatever. In pool, you have actual been beaten personally and a lot of guys live in such fear of that they will never play. I don't mean to sound like some kind of psychologist but it is true. Many would rather bet on another player, at least they did not do the losing. I am cautious if I think the guy was sent in on me because he knows my speed and I probably have the worst of it. I will still play though, because he may have a bad line, I may play better then he thinks. This day and age you can spend $200. taking the family to a ball game. It is only money and I enjoy my hobby of pool. I have friends that spend thousands a year on their boats or what ever is their interest. Look what some of the board members are spending just to attend the US open. Every bit of a thousand if they have to travel. Don't worry so much about money, just make sure you earn enough to pay your bills and put a little away and enjoy your life. I can't think of anything else to say on the subject. This is not a debate, just an explanation of my reasoning when it comes to playing. I am not talking about everybody. If someone is not a very good player they should not be on the road or playing strangers that come around. But for a good player who falls into a certain level of player, they like to match up with strangers. There is nothing to be afraid of. Why someone should feel the need to tell me when to play and when not to play I don't understand.

Keith Talent
07-10-2003, 09:55 PM
Bolo,

You hit it on the nail. Everybody, not excluding me, is worried probably more about being a sucker than flat-out losing.

Makes me think of a line in an old Western ... some gunslinger comes to town and hangs out with some youngster, shoots a few cans or such, and the youngster says something like:
"You're not such a great shot as everybody says you are, Mister."

Gunslinger: "That's right. But I'm willin'. Most men ain't."

griffith_d
07-11-2003, 06:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> I have friends that spend thousands a year on their boats or what ever is their interest. <hr /></blockquote>

That's the way I look at it. Hobbies cost money,...pool could be considered a hobby(at least that is what I told my wife when I bought the pool table) and I know when I go fishing,,...it's $30 for gas, $10 for bait, $8 to launch, $20 for food, drinks and ice,...and I might not catch anything.

So gambling on my hobby is cheaper than going fishing because I might get money instead of always losing money like the fishing proposition.

Griff

DoomCue
07-11-2003, 06:32 AM
Bolo said (beginning SNIPPED):
[ QUOTE ]
I am not talking about everybody. If someone is not a very good player they should not be on the road or playing strangers that come around. But for a good player who falls into a certain level of player, they like to match up with strangers. There is nothing to be afraid of. Why someone should feel the need to tell me when to play and when not to play I don't understand. <hr /></blockquote>

Bolo,

To me, it sounds like even though you might not realize it, you're using my advice, which was, "NEVER gamble with a complete unknown unless you are extremely confident in your playing ability (i.e. Tony Watson or Eric Durbin). Use your research and your own self-analysis to determine how you match up." Sounds like you're confident in your ability. There's nothing wrong with that. I wasn't targeting you personally, Bolo, and I wasn't trying to tell you who to play or who not to play - I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. I simply suggested what I thought was a common sense answer: get some information. My suggestion was 1)Meant for RedHell, and 2)A general response to his general questions.

-djb

RedHell
07-11-2003, 07:15 AM
Thanks for all the answers... that is interesting....

I was asking as per curiousity, I don't really need advice as I don't gamble much and usually manage to avoid getting into games where it will cost me and I'll regret (or feel like a sucker).

Here's something that has happend to me. I was travelling for business to Dublin (GA), I had never been there before so I looked up on the net for a couple of pool room. I found 2, on the afternoon I arrived, I went dowm to that room to shoot a couple of racks before diner. If I remember well, the place was called Rudy's Rack.

Anyway, I got in, real small place about 10 tables in a less than average condition. I started running racks, it wasn't 20 minutes that a fellow came to me and asked me to gamble. I simply declined saying that I would be please to play him a couple of racks for fun, but that I didn't gamble. He insisted, I held my end and declined some more.

5 min. later a man walks in the room, greets all the regulars and start walking straight to me. He introduced himself and asked me to play a couple of game. I answered "sure, but I don't gamble", he said "no problems, I just want to play for fun". So we played.

At the end of the evening he told me they had a friendly tournement the following night and that I was welcome to join. Nothing big, 12$ including green fees. I said sure why not ? I'll see you tomorrow.

The day after I showed up, registered and discovered it was doubles. I got lucky and draw for partner the old man I was playing with the day before. So we went on playing, winning rounds all the way to the finals. Guess who we were playing, yep, you got it !!! The fellow who insisted on gambling the previous day.

So we started playing, 8-ball best of 5, APA rules. They won the break, the gambler broke and ran out (0-1). He broke didn't pocket a ball and I ran out right behind him (1-1). I then broke pocketed a few balls, we exchanged a couple of innings and my partner closed the game (2-1). My partner broke, no ball on the break, the gambler went on to run out (2-2). He took his last break, came up dry, I ran out (3-2) and we won the mini.... 4 eros in 5 game was a good speed !

After all that, the gambler came back to me and said "Man, you're playing pretty good, why won't you play me for money ?" I answered "I tought we just did !". He said "No that doesn't count, that wasn't for money" I said well if it wasn't, I still get away with 50$ while you're only getting 20$. It sure looks to me we were playing for money.

He said come on, I'll play you for your 50$.

I said no thanks, I don't gamble, but I'll play you for fun if you like... He refused and left frustrated.

To this day, I still don't know the speed of that dude. I guess the only way I'll never know is to play him for a few bucks and see if I end up behind ! But for one thing, my double partner told me "Did he want a play you for money ? Never play him for money, he won't pay you and he's only troubles !!!"

I might try it in Atlanta at the end of the month... I guess I can lose a few bucks to learn my own speed !

griffith_d
07-11-2003, 07:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> "Did he want a play you for money ? Never play him for money, he won't pay you and he's only troubles !!!"

<hr /></blockquote>

You have to make sure when you play a stranger that they have the money,...too many times a person head is bigger than their game or their wallet and cannot pay,...then you have to take it out somewhere else!!

Griff

RedHell
07-11-2003, 07:42 AM
Griff,

Trust me, even somewhere else I wouldn't get paid. LMAO...

I can get more weight on the table than my skinny frame /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

bolo
07-11-2003, 08:09 AM
You point out what may be the main problem for the average player. That is Gambling often breeds trouble. You don't really know what someone is like untill money is involved, including people you think you know. One bad experience can sour you for good. I have no problem with no playing someone I know has a history, in many cases you don't know though. It is best to put up the money or get paid say eveey 5 games or something. No body likes trouble and if you gamble at some point things will happen you won't like. It is something to take into account. I have been stiffed many times, you do the best you can not to have it happen but it does.

RedHell
07-11-2003, 08:15 AM
Is posting the money up front an insult when you're playing a stranger ? Like putting it in a pocket or something ?

griffith_d
07-11-2003, 08:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> Is posting the money up front an insult when you're playing a stranger ? Like putting it in a pocket or something ?

<hr /></blockquote>

No not really,...many times at a PH the bartender/owner/operator will hold the money. Both players put their half in and then no one is out anything.

Griff

RedHell
07-11-2003, 08:21 AM
That probably fixes a lot of problems and put both players on neutral ground type of thing!!!

bolo
07-11-2003, 08:42 AM
I like to put up the last set or game. That means you pay as you go and at the end, the last game is collected from where ever it is posted. That way there are no problems. I will make a joke out of it like saying something like." Lets put up the last set with the house, I have been known to not pay". To be honest, this was the way it was always done, I don't know when it changed and people began to just run up hundreds on a wire. I also, if I am winning, don't like to be thinking about if I will have problems getting paid or not, or if the guy has money. I just want to think about the game, not a bunch of other junk. The worst case is to lose to a guy, and you find out later he had no money, and trust me, there is always someone you will take great pleasure in telling you after you lost.

Perk
07-11-2003, 10:27 AM
If you absolutely do not know the person asking you to gamble, and you choose to, I would definately post the money after each game/set. Make sure you are willing to have him/her walkout with out paying you. I am not going to fight/bullshit with someone over getting paid. If the amount is sizeable, it should be posted prior to. If I am at a weekend tourney and gambling, I only gamble with faces of people that you see at all the travel tourneys. This way, if they dont pay..instead of the headache, you can relay the non payment to others around. IMO, its better to hurt someones pride/ego/wallet, than it is for me to have to get into a conflict over money.

If I want to argue over money, I will stay home with my wife. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif