View Full Version : Pool etiquette, What would you do?
07-16-2003, 02:17 AM
You're in a big tournament, the match is now hill hill you're down on the 9 you made the shot but it's a foul shot, you know it, your opponent knows it, but the referee DOES NOT. Your opponent protest that shot to the referee, but since he doesn't know, he allows the shot. What would you do if you were in that situation?
I ask this because a situation similiar to this happen in Cardiff the other day, the match was between a Japanese and.. I forget who's the other one. Score was 4-3 and the Japanese made a carom shot from 3 to 9 , the other guy protested the shot claiming it hits's the 9 first (3 and 9 are glued to each other) but the referee say it hits the 3 first and therefore legal. The (REALLY) Slow motion replay shows that it wasn't a legal shot and the cue ball indeed hits the 9 firt. Had the Japanese player known (which I'm sure he is) his shot was a foul, should he came forward or go with -it's the referee's job- attitude?
07-16-2003, 02:43 AM
If it was me i would go forward and admit that i hit the 9 1st.Thats not to say i would not be tempted to go with the referee's call but thats when you have to toughen up and do the right thing.
07-16-2003, 06:04 AM
It's such strong human nature to 'see what you want to see' that I would bet that on such a close call as that, the shooter was convinced it was a good hit -- especially if it took an ultra slow motion review to see otherwise. Also, IMO you have to give the shooter the benefit if a shot is 'too close to call'. You're calling a 'foul', not the 'possibility of a foul' -- as an opponent or ref you can't call what you cannot be sure of. Unless of course you have immediate access to slo-mo replay /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif .
07-16-2003, 06:34 AM
Nope, because the ref made the call and the shooter took his word for it!
Once the opponent calls a ref to watch a shot and the ref calls it "good" thats the end of it-now, if later on theres a replay and it shows the shot was "no good", then thats an issue the REF has to deal with-he made a call and it cost the opponent a chance at the table!
Carol~believes you rely the refs call!
07-16-2003, 06:53 AM
Exactly! Regardless of what you think you know, or what you really know, when the ref is asked to make the decision, that has to be the final word. That's why you call him over.
07-16-2003, 07:21 AM
I think Carol’s answer is correct. Once a referee is called to watch a hit then you must accept the ruling, whether right or wrong.
I had a situation once where a referee was called over to observe a hit. And afterward both of us looked to him for a ruling, his answer was “I don’t know.” Go figure.
I think refs (and even most all observing players) truly want to give an accurate ruling, but in the heat of the moment sometimes it doesn’t turn out that way.
07-16-2003, 07:36 AM
You didn't state whether the referee was posted at the table to ref the entire match or whether the ref was called over to watch the hit or whether the ref was called over after the fact.
That makes a difference.
If the referee was there to ref the entire match or called over to watch the hit, then his call stands, right or wrong. If both players are in agreement as to what happened and it's against the ref's call, the ref may change his decision, but it's still up to the ref.
If the ref was called over after the fact, he has no jurisdiction on the call. It goes to the shooter.
Sometimes the shooter has the worst vantage point to view the shot so it's not always fair to assume that just because the hit was bad that the shooter knew it, especially if the balls are close.
I don't agree with slow-motion replays unless they allow the replay to dictate the call. No matter how good your eyesight is, it's not possible for a ref to be 100% accurate all of the time. Slow motion replays only serve to humiliate and discredit a ref when all the ref had to look at was a split second of action. Not fair at all.
07-16-2003, 07:57 AM
Whether or not the call would go for or against me, as a shooter, or any other shooter, I firmly believe the ref's call is final. The call goes to the shooter.
07-16-2003, 08:01 AM
As a baseball umpire once said, "it may be fair; or it may be foul; but it ain't nothing until I call it". You go with the ref's call, otherwise what would be the purpose of even having a ref? Once you have a ref you live and die by his/her decision. And go on with the game. Jake
If I am in that position, my opponent would not have to protest. I would concur and give him the shot.
I have been in a somewhat similar situation. I was in an ACUI tournament and playing against a person that was considerably better than I. On the hill game, I was on the 9 ball (with no easy shot either /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif ). I made a couple of practice swings and the second time forward I barely touched the cue ball (it did not even move). I stood up, looking dejected, and told my opponent that I fouled. He never even saw it, but smiled, got up and made the shot and won the match. He later went on to win the tournament and head to the nationals (finished 4th). I finished up somewhere in the middle teens out of the 70 or so that entered.
eg8r <~~~Never won the big one. Well it was big for me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
07-16-2003, 09:21 AM
I think there's a big difference between a self refered shot and a shot with an assigned referee. It is not the players job to change the ref call. Try to imagine Barry Bonds turning to the Umpire and telling him "No, that was a strike and I'm out!".
Or Venus Williams in the Wimbledon finals, giving away a set because she believes that last ace was out ??? It would never happend. Plus, when it's a close call you always believe it's good if you have done the shot.
But, in a self refered game, where refs are called only on certain shot, using the rule that the shooter as last word in case of a disagreement and not playing it fair is a different story.
Here's what I have witnessed once in a league game. My player is at the table and make a obvious foul (can't remeber what it was). Not an obvious one if you're not looking with attention but obvious enough for someone knowing the game like the shooter and his opponent. My team mate's opponent called the foul and my team mate declined saying: "I didn't see any foul, the shot is good" and he keeps shooting.
At that point I knew that he had fouled and that he knew it, but was using the rules (Shooter's last word in our league) to keep his inning going.
After that game, I went to him and mentionned it. I told him: "Weather or not you tell me you knew or didn't know you fouled, If I ever believe you know again, I will never play with you on the same team." He tried to explained he wasn't sure, I told him that if he understood what's his opponent was going on about, he would know as the foul was obvious !
07-16-2003, 09:47 AM
In this case the ref made the best possible call he could at the time.It took the commentators 4 replays at super slow motion to finally say it hit the nine first,even then they argued about it.
The ref's are only human. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
07-16-2003, 10:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Exactly! Regardless of what you think you know, or what you really know, when the ref is asked to make the decision, that has to be the final word. That's why you call him over. <hr /></blockquote>
Incorrect in the case where the shooter calls the ref over, the ref rules in the shooter's favor, but the shooter disagrees with the ref and decides to give his opponent ball in hand. If you the shooter are bullied by the ref to continue shooting, but you want to demonstrate that the ref is wrong, you just purposefully shoot a foul. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>
If the shooter calls the ref over, the ref rules in the shooter's favor, but the shooter doesn't agree, then the shooter always has the option of picking up the cue and handing it to the other player. My point was if you ask for a ruling by the ref, you should plan to abide by that ruling.
07-16-2003, 12:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deniel:</font><hr> You're in a big tournament, the match is now hill hill you're down on the 9 you made the shot but it's a foul shot, you know it, your opponent knows it, What would you do if you were in that situation?
Your opponent protest that shot to the referee, but since he doesn't know, he allows the shot.
Deniel <hr /></blockquote>
You know it - your opponent knows it. No need for a ref. Do the right thing.
07-16-2003, 01:33 PM
Not much ref, If cant call hit, wow! I ref for about 15-20yrs. I stll have not called a hit incorrect.there is a rule if it is split hit it goes to shooter. I would complane to room owner, if not run correctly it will ruin tourny OLD MAN STICK
07-16-2003, 02:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> *SNIP*
Or Venus Williams in the Wimbledon finals, giving away a set because she believes that last ace was out ??? It would never happend.
Actually, calling fouls on yourself and correcting umpires' calls do happen in tennis (in fact, it happened at this year's Wimbledon, although it didn't involve giving away a set) and golf, and I've done it myself in pool. Winning still isn't more important than self-respect and dignity.
In this case, by all accounts it was a close call. The match was between Shintaro Sugaya of Japan and Stephan Cohen of France. It's quite possible, (and I think highly likely) that Sugaya also thought it was a good hit, so why would he call a foul on himself? Even in super slo-mo, it was tough to figure the call.
However, this does not excuse those who know they commit fouls and refuse to call them. In this case, I'm giving Sugaya the benefit of the doubt, but I've seen many instances where players foul and continue as if nothing wrong happened. Here, in a local league, we even have a guy famous for it, and we call him Cheatin' Chuck. He's been kicked off many teams, and for good reason, but somehow he still finds his way on to a team to continue his legacy. That's why it's important to have a ref, to take the power of making the right call out of the hands of the Cheatin' Chucks of the world. If a ref is called over, his call should be final. However, if the shooter thinks the ref missed the call and wants to give his opponent BIH, I see nothing wrong with that - that seems to be honorable and right (but that doesn't mean he HAS to, he could be wrong, after all). The converse, however, is not true. If the ref calls a foul and the shooter thinks the ref missed the call, tough. The shooter should just hope his opponent is as honorable as he is. Unfortunately, winning and money, have corrupted competitive spirit to mean win at all costs, regardless of how winning is done, so hoping will probably net nothing.
07-16-2003, 02:46 PM
If you, as the shooter, are certain you fouled, you call the foul on yourself. If the ref is there and didn't see it, you can call it anyway (repeat, if you are certain).
Ben Hogan did this once. He went to hit a golf ball out of the woods. As he addressed it, it moved. Nobody was there, nobody could see it. He called a penalty on himself and his opponent, surprised, thanked him. He said "Thank me? You may as well thank a man for not robbing the bank".
I'll never forget that story.
Losing a game, a match, I can live with. Not being honest and not being a fair sportsman is something I would prefer not to have the memory of.
Hey, I saw that shot and at the time I had my doubts.It didnt look as if it was on .
As I am taping every match that is shown ,maybe I will have a look .
The next match starts in 20 mins.
Just bought a TV card and the com. is running a bit strange. The idea was to record straight onto my hard disc and then I could burn copies onto cd .I might need some help on the tech. side from you com. 'whiz kids'at the CB. If I can get it together I will put the whole thing on cd or video and send it over . I,m sure somebody has the right equipment to make copies for the rest. Sound good?
07-16-2003, 10:06 PM
Under Tournament conditions:
Calling an obvious foul on yourself is the easiest of all calls. Golfers do it all the time.. especially if they know people are watching.
This isn't anything special, everyone can easily do this. It's as easy as picking up the cue ball from the floor or from the inside of a pocket and handing it to your opponent.
If you double hit the cue ball.. same thing. You know it, and you just hand the ball to your opponent. Or do you? Can you really tell if a ball is 'double hit' (i.e the push rule?) Maybe another discussion.
It is the 'questionable fouls' that test the intergrity of the shooters. When you play safe and cut a ball down table and then try to hide the cue ball behind a ball and the cue ball doesn't hit a rail.. and both you and your opponent are watching the cue ball.. but neglect to watch the OB... and neither of you know if it hit a rail or not.. do you hand your opponent the cue ball? if you were the opponent do you take it? Do you ask railbirds to settle your question? "Did anyone see the OB hit the rail.." (isn't this against the rules?)
When a ref is requested to call a hit, you are agreeing to abide by the ref's decision. If you don't agree, you can show your protest later, but at that time, you must agree. If you openly disrespect the ref, you have openly disrespected the rules of the game.
YOU have IMO lost your integrity. You have then stated that the rules are only good if you agree with them at the time they are used.
It has always been my opinion that when two equally skilled competitors match up, in any sport, the one that knows the rules better has an edge.
07-17-2003, 04:13 AM
TAP TAP TAP!
Hey there Eg8r, /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Thats a different situation-if I fouled on the cueball and my opponent didnt see it, I'd step back and tell my opponent BIH!:)There lies the sportsmanship and respect for the game!:):)
My response was to "on the call of a ref!"I've never personally seen someone protest a refs call and ,like I said, the "bad call" is something the ref has to live with!
Its really a shame ,cause apparently, the opponent protested to the point of them going into an instant replay check, so what Im wondering is, now what? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Have a great day!
07-17-2003, 04:24 AM
"ARE YOU ON DRUGS?" (the judge from my cousin Vinny)
I have NEVER , as the shooter, called a ref to watch my own shot-thats at the discretion of the OPPONENT!
07-17-2003, 06:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> Incorrect in the case where the shooter calls the ref over, the ref rules in the shooter's favor, but the shooter disagrees with the ref and decides to give his opponent ball in hand. If you the shooter are bullied by the ref to continue shooting, but you want to demonstrate that the ref is wrong, you just purposefully shoot a foul. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Is this humor? Otherwize, something wrong here. If a ref is called over, abide by his or her decision. That is my opinion.
07-17-2003, 11:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> I have NEVER, as the shooter, called a ref to watch my own shot - that's at the discretion of the OPPONENT!<hr /></blockquote>My teammate did that in Vegas: she called the ref to watch her own shot. She thought the shot was good and her opponent thought the shot was good. Heck, we all thought the shot was good! But the ref called it a foul. That was one of the first games of the match, and we never did recover from it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif
07-17-2003, 12:40 PM
I was playing in the northwest college regionals and my opponent wanted the ref to watch a shot. I was down 5-4. The cueball on OB were 3/4" apart and all i was doing was hitting down and away from the ball to do this safe.
It worked perfectly as planned and the ref calls a double hit. I debated with her that there was no way it would have worked if I had double hit it. Then she ASKS someone else watching if it was a foul. OF course the guy she asks is a friend and from the same other school as my opponent, so he says it was a foul. I lost the game got down 6-4 and eventually lost instead of it being 5-5 my break.
Todd <--- still irks me to this day
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