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Qtec
07-20-2003, 10:39 PM
After watching the pool on TV I decided it was time to hit a few balls and headed off to the PH. My friend [ yes, I do have one ] signed us in for the 9b tournament and because pool is on TV 45 guys turned up on a Thursday night to do battle. It was a strong field, at least a third were capable of shooting racks.


Anyway , I dont know what ever possessed me but I decided that I would play with a pool cue.
The guy behind the bar gives something that looks like a broomstick with a door stopper for a tip! It must have been at least 20oz and I am used to playing with a 18oz/ 10.5mm snooker cue .

Anyway , I give it a go. With such a big field , the first round was a race to 3. Its 2-2 and I have this shot.
START(
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)END

web page (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/) ?????] [wei]

I want to draw it back to A but I didnt want to scratch . I wasnt sure how hard to hit it or how low . I ended up not hitting it at all and it came back 3 inches. I went for the bank and it stayed in the pocket. Luckily it was double knockout and after throwing the pool cue away and taking a snooker cue from the rack, I ended up losing in the final 6-4.

Yuo see a lot of the English play with a snooker cue but I still think it is better to play pool with a pool cue .A snooker cue throws much more, probably because of the size of the tip, but I was missing with the pool cue because the ball didnt throw enough !


What I am saying is that every cue plays different.Whats important is that as long as you know what it does, then you can always play with it.

Next week 8 ball, need to find me a cue! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Qtec

nhp
07-21-2003, 02:55 AM
The reason why you barely drew the ball is because you were worried about the scratch, so you didn't stroke the shot. A safer should would have been to cheat the pocket so that the 8 drops on the right side of the pocket, and draw the cue ball with low right to have it hit stop on the far side past the pocket, and the left english will kill the ball when it hits the rail.

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%c]7N2%d[2X2
)END

web page (wei)

nhp
07-21-2003, 03:11 AM
As for the throw effect, the diameter of the tip/shaft does make a difference on how much english can be applied, but at the same time, the thinner the shaft the more deflection you will get. There are some common shots which occur in 9-ball which simply can't be done with a very whippy shaft.

Qtec
07-21-2003, 03:33 AM
My diagram is not totally accurate . Believe me when I say I could only draw back towards the middle pocket , it was only a question of how far. It was only not knowing the cue that caused me not to follow through.

Most snooker cues are made of Ash wood. Pool cues maple. They both bend on impact with the qb.
What shots are you reffering to in your post above .

Qtec

nhp
07-21-2003, 06:56 AM
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%AL0Z4%Pp0X6%WM4Z4%Xo2X6%[D9[0%\K2Z4%eB4b8

)END

On a table with simonis 860 cloth that's about 6 months old, so its a little slower then when it was brand new:

Suck the cue ball straight back into the rail with draw.

Here is another:

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%]S4D5%^C5S6%eC7`4%bD2T2%cN4V7%dQ9X9
)END

Make the OB and get the cue ball to point B using high right. Note that the shot is only half a ball off from being straight-in.

Fred Agnir
07-21-2003, 07:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> As for the throw effect, the diameter of the tip/shaft does make a difference on how much english can be applied, but at the same time, the thinner the shaft the more deflection you will get. There are some common shots which occur in 9-ball which simply can't be done with a very whippy shaft. <hr /></blockquote> I have no idea what you're talking about.

Amount of english seems to be most dependent on how far from center you're hitting, not tip diameter

A thinner shaft will only have more deflection (bending) if the taper is the same. But a snooker taper is normally stiffer than a pool pro taper. If you're talking about squirt, all indications point strongly that a thinner shaft would have less squirt than an equal thicker shaft counterpart.

And finally, throw is a cueball effect, not a cue stick effect. I have no idea what Qtec is talking about either.

Fred &lt;~~~ confused, as usual

nhp
07-21-2003, 08:33 AM
Chalk up a broomstick and try to see how much sidespin you can apply without miscuing. Then chalk up a regular cue, and do the same thing. Then chalk up a thin snooker cue, and do the same. Of course the margin of difference for a broom to a regular cue is more than a regular cue to a snooker, but it's the same principal.

The smaller the tip, the more cueball you can grab.

The thinner the shaft, the more deflection. I don't care if predator made a shaft for snooker cues, it would still deflect.

Fred Agnir
07-21-2003, 08:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> The smaller the tip, the more cueball you can grab. <hr /></blockquote> I disagree. There are people who claim that a larger tip will "grab" the cueball more. Both parties can't be right. More reasonable is that neither is right.

[ QUOTE ]
The thinner the shaft, the more deflection. I don't care if predator made a shaft for snooker cues, it would still deflect. <hr /></blockquote>So you *are* talking about squirt. There have been all too many studies on squirt by Predator, Schuler, and Meucci, as well as pool-playing physicists and engineers. The overall conclusion has been that the majority of squirt is due to the effective tip-end mass. Taper and tip diameter seem to have little effect, other than how it affects the effective tip-end mass. All indications is that anything that decreases the tip-end mass results in lower squirt. A smaller shaft diameter lowers tip-end mass.

I have never heard anyone else say that a snooker cue deflects more than a pool cue.

Fred

nhp
07-21-2003, 09:25 AM
Deflection and squirt are two separate things. Squirt is the same thing as throw, which is spin transfer between two balls that causes the recieving ball's path to alter by a small amount.

Deflection is the vibration in the shaft of a cue when spin is applied. A cue with alot of deflection will cause it's player to have to adjust on how to aim on most shots because the cueball will not travel the intended path aimed at.

A smaller tip allows you to make contact farther out near the edge of a cueball than a larger tip would. That is what I tried to clarify with a broomstick. The farther to the side you can contact, the more spin that can be applied.

nhp
07-21-2003, 09:28 AM
^ In case that doesn't make sense, a thinner shaft= a weaker shaft= more vibration= more deflection

a thicker shaft= a stiffer shaft= less vibration= less deflection

Wally_in_Cincy
07-21-2003, 10:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>

...So you *are* talking about squirt. ...<hr /></blockquote>

nhp may have read this and become confused about "deflection" :

http://www.azbilliards.com/rogerlong/skillschool16.cfm

Ken
07-21-2003, 10:19 AM
He seems to be confused about "deflection", "throw", and "squirt". It appears he has thought this all out without recourse to any written sources.

He would benefit from going through the archives since this has been discussed many times before.
KenCT

Tom_In_Cincy
07-21-2003, 10:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Deflection and squirt are two separate things. Squirt is the same thing as throw, which is spin transfer between two balls that causes the recieving ball's path to alter by a small amount.
<font color="blue">Squirt and Throw are NOT the same thing. "Squirt" is the amount of cue ball direction change with side english. "Throw" is the amount of direction change of the object ball. "Squirt" aiming compensation allows for the difference in the path by using a side hit. IMO </font color>

Deflection is the vibration in the shaft of a cue when spin is applied. A cue with alot of deflection will cause it's player to have to adjust on how to aim on most shots because the cueball will not travel the intended path aimed at. <font color="blue"> I am assuming you mean this is only true with a side hit on the cueball? </font color>

A smaller tip allows you to make contact farther out near the edge of a cueball than a larger tip would. That is what I tried to clarify with a broomstick. The farther to the side you can contact, the more spin that can be applied. <font color="blue">I'm not sure what you are trying to mean here. The more you go away from center (regardless of tip size, 14m to 10.5mm.) the contact point is still going to produce an effective level of spin. Even if you think a 10.5mm tip gets you more spin, how effective is it to the shot? And at what price to you have to pay for aiming compensation of the cue ball squirt? IMO if you have to go more than a tip and a half away from center, you have better been practing that shot for years to be confident it will work all the time. </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

Qtec
07-21-2003, 10:53 AM
[ QUOTE ]
And at what price to you have to pay for aiming compensation of the cue ball squirt? IMO if you have to go more than a tip and a half away from center, you have better been practing that shot for years to be confident it will work all the time.
<hr /></blockquote>


I have Tom. My aiming was wrong because I didnt know how much to compensate for the amount of English I was using.

Q

Fred Agnir
07-21-2003, 04:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Deflection and squirt are two separate things. Squirt is the same thing as throw, which is spin transfer between two balls that causes the recieving ball's path to alter by a small amount.<hr /></blockquote> Pretty much your definitions are contrary to everything written on the subject.

[ QUOTE ]
Deflection is the vibration in the shaft of a cue when spin is applied.<hr /></blockquote>Well, there's a new one. Newflash: vibration is vibration. Vibration isn't deflection.



[ QUOTE ]
A smaller tip allows you to make contact farther out near the edge of a cueball than a larger tip would. <hr /></blockquote> If the tip curvature is the same, then the contact can be the same.


Fred

Fred Agnir
07-21-2003, 04:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> ^ In case that doesn't make sense, a thinner shaft= a weaker shaft= more vibration= more deflection

a thicker shaft= a stiffer shaft= less vibration= less deflection <hr /></blockquote>Again, I disagree. Poor conclusions, IMO.

A thicker shaft doesn't necessarily mean a stiffer shaft. A stiffer shaft doesn't necessarily mean less vibration. And there is absolutely no correlation between vibration and deflection.

Fred

nhp
07-21-2003, 06:29 PM
Sorry, apparently our definitions may be different. I have been taught that squirt and throw are the same thing. Your definition of squirt is what I term as cue-ball deflection. To me cue-ball deflection and cue-stick deflection are the same thing, since they both occur at the same time. Deflection is caused by cues with whippy shafts. Usually the thinner the shaft, because the less meat you have, the more your cue will bend when you apply spin on the ball. This bend causes your shaft to vibrate. This is what you will notice when you shoot with a cue that deflects, which is why I described the vibration. The stiffer the shaft you have, the less deflection will occur, i.e. predator 314. Even famous custom cue maker/case maker/billiard supply maker Joe Porper whom is a friend of mine describes deflection the same way I do.

Fred, I would advise that you attempt to first shape the tip of a broomstick to the same curvature as the tip on your cue. It is the same exact principal.

I did a search and came up with this for deflection: It seems I was right, but my definition of squirt is wrong.

<font color="red"> </font color>
By Roger Long,
BCA Advanced Certified Instructor

In our last discussion on this subject we discovered that the dictionary describes deflection thusly: "a deflecting or being deflected; a turning aside, bending, or deviation." After that discovery we listed several different instances where deflection can, and does, occur in just about every single game of pool. Now we'll begin to take a closer look at these instances. Let's start with cue ball deflection.

Now I'm no physicist, but I don't think I have to be to know that when two hard objects collide at an angle, one or both objects will rebound off of the other at an angle in the opposite direction of the collision point. Did you notice that I said "one or both?" That's because they do not have to rebound equally when there are differences in their weight or the amount of force behind them. That's what happens when the tip of the cue hits the cue ball either left or right of center - one or both of them will be deflected away from the original line of aim. Usually it's the cue ball that is deflected the most, and the term pool players have given to the cue ball's deflection is squirt. Why "squirt"? Who knows? Pool players don't have to make sense.

This all means that when a cue ball is hit on the left side it will squirt (deflect) to the right, and when hit on the right side it will squirt to the left. The actual amount of deflection experienced will depend on varying factors such as the weight of the cue, the force used on the shot, the stiffness of the cue's shaft, and how far from center the cue ball was struck. It also means that the player must compensate for this deflection by moving the aiming point slightly to the left on shots using left English, and slightly to the right on shots using right English.
<font color="red"> </font color>

nhp
07-21-2003, 06:31 PM
<hr /></blockquote>there is absolutely no correlation between vibration and deflection.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

^ vibration is what you see and feel your shaft doing when deflection occurs /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ken
07-21-2003, 07:21 PM
Doesn't the cue vibrate when the ball is struck in the center? Is the little amount that the tip region deflects and then returns to its original position enough to set up some more vibration? I doubt it. That little bit of force could be damped quickly and never result in a vibration that could be felt.

There's much more force involved along the axis of the cue and that's probably where some of the vibration comes from. I get the most vibration when I miscue and an off center hit can produce a lot of vibration. I just think it involves the whole cue and not just the tip region where the deflection is happening.

I think this has a lot to do with pinning down the definitions more precisely.
KenCT

Fred Agnir
07-21-2003, 07:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Sorry, apparently our definitions may be different. I have been taught that squirt and throw are the same thing. Your definition of squirt is what I term as cue-ball deflection.<hr /></blockquote>
This isn't *my* definition. It's *the* definition. The term "squirt" was specifically coined to describe "cueball deflection."

[ QUOTE ]
To me cue-ball deflection and cue-stick deflection are the same thing, since they both occur at the same time<hr /></blockquote> That might be well and good to you, but there have been all too many proofs that say you're wrong. Cueball deflection and cuestick deflection are entirely two different animals. You need to read up on why Predator is what it is, rather than just assume you know (which you obviously do not.)

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks NHP should stop making broomstick analogies

TonyM
07-21-2003, 07:28 PM
For what it's worth, many snooker players in the U.K. (and elsewhere in Europe?) appear to use the term "THROW" as we in North America would use the terms "Squirt" or "Deflection".

The way we use the term "Throw", is not affected by the cue in any way whatsoever.

And actually, if anything, a snooker cue with a 10 mm tip would likely have less squirt than a typical 13mm pool cue.

Tony
-although this probably doesn't really help, but what the heck....

TonyM
07-21-2003, 07:43 PM
This discussion highlights the very reason why I won't ever use the term "deflection" when referring to the cueball path with sidespin ever again. And it shows why I don't recommend it's use as well. People get confused as to just what is actuallydoing the "deflecting". Is it the shaft, or the cueball? And does one equate with the other?

While the term "squirt" is not appreciated by everyone, it is at least unambiguous. It has only one meaning for pool and billiards. "Deflection" has several potential meanings, hence the possible confusion.

I think that the poster that Fred is responding to seems to be confusing shaft "deflection" (the bending of a shaft during an off center hit) with "squirt" (or what some call cue ball "deflection").

While it is true that a shaft might indeed deflect during an off center hit , this is not actually related in any strong way to cue ball "deflection" (squirt).

This is easily proven by comparing low squirt shafts that are extremely flexible, with low squirt shafts that are extremely stiff (I've made and tested both). Both can be made to produce very little (or very large if you want) amounts of squirt. The relative stiffness seems to play little or no part in the squirt process.

You can then add some small weights to the end of each shaft and see the squirt increase rapidly, with no change in actual shaft static stiffness whatsoever! (Try a hose clamp and some lead strips. Even a few grams has a significant effect).

Since I can produce a shaft with virtually any stiffness that I want, and maintain a low squirt effect each time, I consider squirt to be "stiffness neutral".

As far as I've seen, shaft "deflection" is simply a measure of the shaft stiffness, and plays little or no role in the amount of squirt that you can expect to find. While the effective end mass of the shaft has a profound influence on the squirt angle.

Shaft "deflection" is a red herring imo.

Tony
-and we have discussed this about 1 million times before, or did I just dream it?....

TonyM
07-21-2003, 08:02 PM
While this might seem reasonable to you, there are others who swear the opposite is true (Bob Meucci is the most notable case). They believe that a whippy shaft will always produce less squirt than a stiff shaft.

Both of you cannot be right.

In fact, imo, neither of you are.

I can and have produced test shafts with very low squirt (less than a 314, or to be specific, a larger than 50" pivot point) that are either very stiff, or very flexible.

The current squirt theory (as documented by Ron Shepard - somebody give this guy the link please!) suggests that conservation of momentum between the cue stick "effective end mass" and the cueball mass is largely responsible for squirt, and that shaft stiffness should have little or nothing to do with it.

A good test for any theory is if it can predict effects before an experiment is performed, and that the experimental data closely conforms to the predictions.

Predator's tests (and my own small tests) match Ron's theory, not yours.

Your theory would exclude the posibility of a very high squirt and very stiff shaft (which exist btw) and a very low squirt and yet very flexible shaft (which is quite easy to make btw).

Since both cases have been observed by many people, it is reasonable to assume that your contention that stiff=low squirt, whippy=high squirt cannot be a true generalization, or is at best incomplete.

Read Ron's article, and see if you still feel the same way.

Tony
-one good experiment trumps ten poor theories....imo....

nhp
07-21-2003, 08:23 PM
This whole time I am talking about a snooker cue making contact with a normal sized cue ball, not snooker balls. The mass of a cueball of course will have an effect on how much deflection there is.

Anyways, plain and simple- when you put top right on the cue ball, you miss the object ball to the left, and you feel and see your shaft vibrating for a few seconds, that is deflection. At the moment of contact, the tip of your cue deflects to the right, and the cueball deflects to the left. What certain world famous cue makers tell me is the stiffer the hit, the less deflection there will be.

bluewolf
07-22-2003, 09:47 AM
I used to read about all of this deflection, squirt, throw etc on here, as a beginning pool player and it was not all that confusing. It seemed like most people here were saying sort of the same thing.

Now, you, have got me all mixed up. I now understand swerve(I think) and contact induced throw but thanks to you, I am mixed up again about deflection and squirt.

Groan. Guess I will have to go read my pool books.

Laura

Fred Agnir
07-22-2003, 10:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> Shaft "deflection" is a red herring imo.<hr /></blockquote>

and
[ QUOTE ]

Since both cases have been observed by many people, it is reasonable to assume that your contention that stiff=low squirt, whippy=high squirt cannot be a true generalization, or is at best incomplete.<hr /></blockquote>
After so many years of internet discussion on this subject, this may sound arrogant but I'm absolutely amazed that this is somehow new information to some posters.

As Tony said, one of the ways to easily prove to yourself that shaft stiffness is not a major contributor to the amount of squirt is to simply find a way to add mass to the tip end of your current stick. Taping something like lead tape or solder wire or really anything that might add weight will get your answers. Is it easily understood by all that by adding weight to the tip end that you haven't changed shaft stiffness, yet the amount of squirt can be grossly affected?

Fred &lt;~~~ it's not the stiffness.

DoomCue
07-22-2003, 12:15 PM
This brings to mind a question for me. It's been said that Tip End Mass (I'm going to shorten this to TEM) is the deciding factor in determining squirt properties of a shaft. The question I have is this: is squirt a function of TEM relative to the mass of the shaft ?

SCENARIO: Let's say I have a 10 oz shaft and a 12 oz shaft (no idea if these are realistic numbers, this is just a whatif) and TEM is 1.5 oz on both. Is the squirt produced going to be equal? If not, which should produce more squirt? Does center of mass come into play at all?

djb

Fred Agnir
07-22-2003, 01:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DoomCue:</font><hr> This brings to mind a question for me. It's been said that Tip End Mass (I'm going to shorten this to TEM) is the deciding factor in determining squirt properties of a shaft. The question I have is this: is squirt a function of TEM relative to the mass of the shaft ?

SCENARIO: Let's say I have a 10 oz shaft and a 12 oz shaft (no idea if these are realistic numbers, this is just a whatif) and TEM is 1.5 oz on both. Is the squirt produced going to be equal? If not, which should produce more squirt? Does center of mass come into play at all?

djb
<hr /></blockquote>This is a tough question for me to answer, but I'll give it a go. The short answer to is squirt a function of TEM relative to the mass of the shaft ?
is, "no."

I say this because I think if you add mass to the joint end of the shaft, that none of that added weight affects the tip end mass and its interaction with the cueball. That's the "tape solder to the joint area" test.

There are several factors, and mostly it's the design of the end of the shaft and the internal dynamics of the materials. I think.

For example, if you look at the Predator design, there is a profound affect on squirt if you drill a hole in the end. But, if you continue to drill the hole deeper and deeper, there's a point of diminishing returns. That is, just because you keep taking out mass, that doesn't mean you continue to reduce squirt. There's some magic distance based on the design of a standard tapered maple dowel with collared ferrule that becomes your limit.

Then there's the Meucci concept that has a floating ferrule design (there's a gap between most of the tenon and the ferrule) that sort of keeps the ferrule separate from most of the mass of the shaft when hit with english. *That* effective tip end mass has very little to do with any of the shaft mass (because it effectively de-couples from the shaft). But, hit with it such that the ferrule moves enough to contact the tenon, and suddently the effective tip mass increases dramatically because it now includes the tenon and all the normal tip end mass associated with a non-doctored shaft. But, I think that movement of the ferrule all has to happen within the tip/cueball contact time. With extreme english, the tip contact time is greater than the .001 centerball contact time, so there might be some shots that this happens.

Fred &lt;~~~ did I answer the question?

Fred Agnir
07-22-2003, 01:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DoomCue:</font><hr>
SCENARIO: Let's say I have a 10 oz shaft and a 12 oz shaft (no idea if these are realistic numbers, this is just a whatif) <hr /></blockquote>

Incidentally, shafts don't normall go much above 4 oz.

Fred

nhp
07-22-2003, 11:19 PM
Fred, my intent was never to insult your intelligence, or to make you angry. I am simply posting what I have learned from many different players, pro and non-pro, and also a few famous cue makers. You sound like an experienced person, and I am not trying to prove you wrong. I am just posting what I have been taught over the past 10 years.

Fred Agnir
07-23-2003, 06:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Fred, my intent was never to insult your intelligence, or to make you angry. <hr /></blockquote>
I neither feel insulted nor angry.


[ QUOTE ]
I am simply posting what I have learned from many different players, pro and non-pro, and also a few famous cue makers. You sound like an experienced person, and I am not trying to prove you wrong. I am just posting what I have been taught over the past 10 years. <hr /></blockquote> Good. Stick around. Hopefully you're open to the idea of learning (by shared experiences, not by teacher/student interaction) something new from the other people who have more years of learning and know more famous cuemakers than you do. It happens to all of us (learning something new/different regardless of what we thought before we started discussing on the internet).

That's not meant to be a jab. I've tried to rewrite that line with less "a$$hole" in it. But, I can't. Maybe I should put one of those smiley faces. But I won't.

Fred &lt;~~~ doesn't know more cuemakers than anyone

Qtec
07-23-2003, 08:10 AM
What I was saying is that I dont really care how much squirt is on the ball . I just have to get to know the cue .

Q