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Fran Crimi
07-27-2003, 08:45 AM
<font color="blue"> There's been a lot of criticism about players running their own organizations in this country. Here's one reason for the importance of a players' association and for players having a say in their destiny. There is no women's players' association in all of Europe. Here's an article from BBC Sport:</font color>

Thursday, 10 July, 2003, 15:26 GMT 16:26 UK
Women's game under threat
By Saj Chowdhury


The future of women's snooker has been thrown into doubt after the sport's governing body withdrew its support from the game.


" I don't understand why they think it's okay to ditch the women "
World champion Kelly Fisher




Players were sent a letter to inform them that all competitions had been abandoned.


The shock move effectively means the end of all major women's tournaments and could see the sport dissolve entirely.

Women's world champion Kelly Fisher told this website the decision came as a complete shock.

"There's been the feeling over the last two years that the World Snooker Association have not been as supportive of the women's game as many of us hoped," said Fisher.

"But for this to happen has come completely out of the blue.

"When the sport's new backers, World Snooker Enterprises, took over, we thought all of snooker's financial problems would be eliminated. It now seems that's far from the case."





Those financial problems have been a major thorn in the side ever since new government legislation was introduced to phase out all tobacco sponsorship in British sport by 2006.

But earlier this year World Snooker Enterprises entered the arena as the commercial arm of the sport's governing body and were handed the role of finding new sponsorship.

The WSE kept their promise to stage eight world ranking tournaments and one invitational event for the 2002-2003 season with a total prize fund falling a little short of their predicted 5.244m.


They also found new sponsors for the UK Championship, the sport's second biggest event.

But with money for the women's game taken away and lack of sponsorship for the old Regal Scottish and Welsh and Benson and Hedges Masters, it appears that snooker is once again in dire straits.






"I don't understand why they think it's okay to ditch the women," added Fisher.

"Why not all stick together and go through the bad together. It seems that as long as the men's competition is okay that's what matters to the governing body.

"My choice now is to get a full-time job or go to America and play nine-ball pool like former world champion Allison Fisher chose to do.

"But while I'm here, I'm going to fight and get women's snooker back on the road.

"Me and my manager Tim Gorst have spoken to the Sports Minister Richard Caborn and both him and his department seem keen to support our cause."

World snooker's governing body made no comment.

Irish
07-27-2003, 09:47 AM
Snooker as a whole is in trouble. The women will be the first to fall. The mens snooker tour wont die any time soon but it will fade bigtime with the growing interest in pool in Europe. Once pool proved itself to the world and the old snooker fans as a game with skilled players and with its own difficulties it has been taking off over there. The old belief that a great snooker player would completely own a good pool player and dominate the 9-ball game in a short period of time has been squashed. 9-ball has some respect now and it is not the numbingly boring game to watch that snooker is.

The pool world is definately not big enough to have two major games played. Snooker and 9-ball cannot coexist, they are seeking the same market and resources and there is not enough to go around or enough interest in the game as a whole. Snooker is starting to feel the pressure of pool and the first place you are seeing it lose ground is at its weakest link, womens snooker. The womens snooker tour already was hurting from low prize funds and a relatively weak field with few real top players. The tour has lately been dominated by 2 or 3 players at best which can get boring if the person dominating is not a phenom but instead just has weak competition(hurts 9-ball some as well, while Allison and Karen are great players they are quite beatable and should not be dominating the tour like they are). Thats just what I see happening, in 20 years pool (9-ball or the next pool game if it is replaced with something that has more challenge for the top players) is going to be bigger then snooker.

Barbara
07-27-2003, 09:58 AM
Well, I wonder if we're going to be seeing the players "jumping the pond" to play in our Regional Tours for the Qualifiers.

Or do you think they'll try to regroup with a new sponsor?

Barbara~~~been through Karen, Julie, Sarah, and Kim...

Fran Crimi
07-27-2003, 10:39 AM
What you're saying makes sense to me, especially if pool is taking off in Europe. It's pretty much what happened to 14.1 after 9-ball became popular over here.

But without a players' association, the women have very little chance of regrouping and maybe even forming a 9-ball tour if need be. Right now, their future is in someone else's hands. That can't be a good feeling for them.

Fran

Qtec
07-27-2003, 10:44 AM
If all sponsering from Tobacco Comps. were taken out of F1 , how many teams would fold ? To exclude these firms from sponsering snooker is a death knell for the pro game.
Womans snooker has always been looked down apon. I dont know why . Maybe the standard?


[ QUOTE ]
The old belief that a great snooker player would completely own a good pool player and dominate the 9-ball game in a short period of time has been squashed <hr /></blockquote>


I would say considering the results at the WPC , the snooker players did very well . Tony Drago made the semi-finals with 2 weeks practice ! Earl was doing it in his pants when he played Steve Davis . He knew there was a real possobility of losing to Steve , hence the antics etc.

I may have previosly misjudged Earl . I think now that he was playing for himself, he was representing his country [ like you said Fran . Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ] and he was playing FOR pool. In the same way that Earl personifies pool , so does Steve for snooker . For Earl especially there was a lot at stake and a lot of pressure .
If he had lost , WOW. Would it be the end of American pool ? I dont think so .
Some people would have taken it that way though.

The problem , IMO , with 9 ball is that it is too easy. Every tournament you have a different winner. It is almost immpossible to dominate in the mens game . The degree of difficulty is too low and there are too many good players who on their day can beat anybody.

This is why I was amused at this statement,

[ QUOTE ]
The tour has lately been dominated by 2 or 3 players at best which can get boring if the person dominating is not a phenom but instead just has weak competition(hurts 9-ball some as well, while Allison and Karen are great players they are quite beatable and should not be dominating the tour like they are). <hr /></blockquote>

Do you think you DOMINATE by luck ? If they are beatable , why doesnt somebody beat them ??

This sounds like "hard cheese 'to me .

Wait till the YOUNGER good snooker players start playing pool .


Q


I know an Irish guy that bought a pair of water ski's. He has never used them . He is still looking for a lake with a slope on it . /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[ couldnt resist an Irish joke ]

Hopster
07-27-2003, 11:26 AM
The tour has lately been dominated by 2 or 3 players at best which can get boring if the person dominating is not a phenom but instead just has weak competition(hurts 9-ball some as well, while Allison and Karen are great players they are quite beatable and should not be dominating the tour like they are).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Do you think you DOMINATE by luck ? If they are beatable , why doesnt somebody beat them ?? &lt;--Qtec

As much as i hate to agree with you, this is exactly what i was thinking when i read this above also. You dont stay on top for any period of time by being beatable.

dardusm
07-27-2003, 12:46 PM
If 9 ball is too easy then add a ball and play 10 ball. Just adding the 1 ball makes a huge difference in the difficulty of the game not to mention the affect on the break. Playing 10 ball instead of 9 ball might be a solution.

Darryl

Irish
07-27-2003, 08:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Hopster:</font><hr> The tour has lately been dominated by 2 or 3 players at best which can get boring if the person dominating is not a phenom but instead just has weak competition(hurts 9-ball some as well, while Allison and Karen are great players they are quite beatable and should not be dominating the tour like they are).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Do you think you DOMINATE by luck ? If they are beatable , why doesnt somebody beat them ?? &lt;--Qtec

As much as i hate to agree with you, this is exactly what i was thinking when i read this above also. You dont stay on top for any period of time by being beatable.
<hr /></blockquote>

You stay on the top by being beatable if all the other players on the tour play like amatures by comparison. Allison and Karen are not phenoms and they do not put a ton of racks on their opponents. The girls get shots against both of these players but they cannot take advatage enough.

I dominated all the A level tournaments in my city up to about 6 months ago. I was winning pretty much every A tournament I played in. Then they kicked me out of those tournaments. I am very beatable when I play against the top master level players but when the competition is weak I dominate it. This make sense to you now? Allison and Karen are playing against weak competition. Need more of an expanation?

You want someone to beat Allison or Karen why dont you back either one of them against Reed Pierce. Some Barracuda guy on AZBilliards has been itching to get that going. Allison and Karen are very beatable by players who put alot of racks together and play high offense pool, on the womens tour they do not get this kind of competition.

I hope this makes sense to you guys now. I feel really bad that I confused you so.

Hopster
07-27-2003, 10:58 PM
I hope this makes sense to you guys now. I feel really bad that I confused you so. &lt;--Irish

So youre saying the whole womens tour is weak then. Why dont you yourself go and play a few of them for the gold seeing as youre such a great player.Theyre all easy, you said it pretty much yourself.
Or you only play great dominant pool on a message board ?
Btw- Dont feel bad, were not confused. You want to feel bad about something ? Feel bad that youre a moron.

L.S. Dennis
07-27-2003, 11:02 PM
Hey Hopster,
Why don't you tell him what you really think!?
LOL

Irish
07-27-2003, 11:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Hopster:</font><hr>
So youre saying the whole womens tour is weak then.<hr /></blockquote>

No. Karen and Allison are by no means weak. Those two play very strong pool, far stronger then any other women atm. Past the top 10 women on tour it gets quite weak.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Hopster:</font><hr>
Why dont you yourself go and play a few of them for the gold seeing as youre such a great player.Theyre all easy, you said it pretty much yourself.<hr /></blockquote>

And what makes you think I have not played a WPBA pro for cash before?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Hopster:</font><hr>
Or you only play great dominant pool on a message board ?
<hr /></blockquote>

Irish: 88

Hopster: 445

You win.

Hopster
07-28-2003, 01:15 AM
And what makes you think I have not played a WPBA pro for cash before? &lt;--Irish

I got a strong feeling you play with something all right, in fact you were probably playing with it while you typed your last post out.
As far as you playing a WPBA pro,Naaaaaaaaaaaa i doubt it.

Qtec
07-28-2003, 01:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I got a strong feeling you play with something all right, in fact you were probably playing with it while you typed your last post out <hr /></blockquote>

HaHaHaHaHa /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q

Barbara
07-28-2003, 07:46 AM
So Karen Corr is a dominating player over a weak tour?

Then explain to me how she beat Jim Rempe TWICE to win a Joss Tour event?

Barbara

Fred Agnir
07-28-2003, 08:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
If he had lost , WOW. Would it be the end of American pool ? I dont think so .
Some people would have taken it that way though.<hr /></blockquote> I don't think anyone would have thought that. Why would you even say it? Earl lost to Davis in the Mosconi Cup. The only people that seemed to make a big deal out of it were people like you who wished that it was somehow the biggest coup to us like the Americans losing the America's Cup (sailing) or the U.S. men's basketball team losing any international tournament. People in the States applauded the Europeans and Davis, but people like you seem not to want to acknowledge that.


[ QUOTE ]
The problem , IMO , with 9 ball is that it is too easy. Every tournament you have a different winner. It is almost immpossible to dominate in the mens game . The degree of difficulty is too low and there are too many good players who on their day can beat anybody.<hr /></blockquote> I don't understand your reasoning. Why are you correlating dominance with ease of the game?

Before Tiger Woods, there was a new winner every week on the PGA. Does that mean pro golf is somehow "too easy." That's ridiculous. When he doesn't win now, was the course "too easy"? That doesn't make sense.

The Williams sisters are dominating women's tennis. Is women's tennis "hard enough"?

Nobody currently is dominating the men's tennis tour. Is the men's game "too easy" while the women's game is "difficult enough"?

Fred &lt;~~~ doesn't think there's a correlation

Qtec
07-28-2003, 10:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
If he had lost , WOW. Would it be the end of American pool ? I dont think so .
Some people would have taken it that way though.<hr /></blockquote> I don't think anyone would have thought that. <font color="blue"> What, nobody ? </font color> Why would you even say it? Earl lost to Davis in the Mosconi Cup. The only people that seemed to make a big deal out of it <font color="blue"> So there ARE some people . </font color> were people like you who wished <font color="blue"> Did I say this or are you assuming ? </font color> that it was somehow the biggest coup to us like the Americans losing the America's Cup (sailing) or the U.S. men's basketball team losing any international tournament. People in the States applauded the Europeans and Davis, but people like you seem not to want to acknowledge that. <font color="blue"> I applaude the American players for their sportsmanship and their skill . They are better than I had expected . I learnt a lot from the WPC. </font color>


&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
The problem , IMO , with 9 ball is that it is too easy. Every tournament you have a different winner. It is almost immpossible to dominate in the mens game . The degree of difficulty is too low and there are too many good players who on their day can beat anybody.<hr /></blockquote> I don't understand your reasoning. Why are you correlating dominance with ease of the game?

Before Tiger Woods, there was a new winner every week on the PGA. Does that mean pro golf is somehow "too easy." That's ridiculous. When he doesn't win now, was the course "too easy"? That doesn't make sense.

The Williams sisters are dominating women's tennis. Is women's tennis "hard enough"?

Nobody currently is dominating the men's tennis tour. Is the men's game "too easy" while the women's game is "difficult enough"?

Fred &lt;~~~ doesn't think there's a correlation



<hr /></blockquote>

For a start , you cannot equate pool with golf or tennis. When Tiger smacks his drive 300yards down the fairway , I still get to play my shot , irrespective of what he has done. When Serena hits a ball over the net the opponent is allowed to play the ball , required actually or lose the point. Theoretically I could beat Earl 11-0 if I had luck on the break . I could win by only potting 10 balls in regulation and 6 9balls on the break . Earl would have nothing to say about it . Would I be the better player ? In snooker , you miss a ball , you can lose the frame . In 9b , winner breaks , you miss one ball , you can lose the match . Luck plays too big a roll in the game . You can play longer matches but who is going to watch ?

I'm not saying breaking isnt a skill , but is it spoiling pool ?

What about if you can break twice. If you win the first rack you may break again . Then the other player is on . If you lose the first rack , the opponent has the break .

You could make it 3 breaks max , whatever.
With 'winner breaks 'and short matches it will be difficult to dominate , IMO.

Q

Fred Agnir
07-28-2003, 10:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
If he had lost , WOW. Would it be the end of American pool ? I dont think so .
Some people would have taken it that way though.<hr /></blockquote> I don't think anyone would have thought that. <font color="blue"> What, nobody ? </font color> Why would you even say it? Earl lost to Davis in the Mosconi Cup. The only people that seemed to make a big deal out of it <font color="blue"> So there ARE some people . </font color> were people like you who wished <font color="blue"> Did I say this or are you assuming ? </font color> <hr /></blockquote>Read what I wrote a few more times until you understand it. I'll give you a few years. Then, get back to me.

Until then, it's always you who does a bit too much assuming.

Fred

Irish
07-28-2003, 11:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> So Karen Corr is a dominating player over a weak tour?

Then explain to me how she beat Jim Rempe TWICE to win a Joss Tour event?

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

Karen is awesome. She is possibly as good as Rempe is these days and he is still a great player who I dont think has lost much speed from his younger years. Allison is awesome too. The fact she is a great player and the fact that the tour is weak are not relative. She does win a ton of tournaments and her major competition is Allison until some new players come ot who shoot high end pool or else some of the current women start to get alot better.

Answer me this. How much better do you think Allison and Karen are then the rest of the women? I think they are ALOT better then the next women down the list. If they are as much better then the rest of the players it is due to A) they are phenoms that never miss and never let anyone else shoot therefore they dont give anyone a chance to win or B) They are great players that do miss and give chances to the other players but the other players miss and give away chances more.

When Mosconi ran 150 &amp; out on people in World Championships of 14.1 he was not giving those players a chance and that is why he was dominating. When Yang was down 3-0 to Souquet in this years Worlds Souquet let him at the table and Yang never missed and never gave Souquet a chance at the table again. Those are cases of phenoms dominating their opponent.

When Allison or Karen are beating their opponents they run quite afew racks over the course of a match. But you are going to get afew chances to win. I have never seen Karen or Allison run 7 racks in a row or 9 racks in a row to beat someone. Perhaps they have done it once or twice but I have watched them alot and you get a shot about once every two games on average against these ladies. You get afew chances to win against Allison or Karen during a set, you have to be very good to win with those few chances still, but you are not going to lose a lag and then sit and watch them run out the set on you, you are going to have a chance.

As good as Allison and Karen are (Karen as you said beat Rempe and has won a Joss tour event) that is why I said that the womens tour does not need "better" players then Allison or Karen. They need "more" players of Allison's and Karen's caliber.

Irish
07-28-2003, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
For a start , you cannot equate pool with golf or tennis. When Tiger smacks his drive 300yards down the fairway , I still get to play my shot , irrespective of what he has done. When Serena hits a ball over the net the opponent is allowed to play the ball , required actually or lose the point. Theoretically I could beat Earl 11-0 if I had luck on the break . I could win by only potting 10 balls in regulation and 6 9balls on the break . Earl would have nothing to say about it . Would I be the better player ? In snooker , you miss a ball , you can lose the frame . In 9b , winner breaks , you miss one ball , you can lose the match . Luck plays too big a roll in the game . You can play longer matches but who is going to watch ?

I'm not saying breaking isnt a skill , but is it spoiling pool ?

What about if you can break twice. If you win the first rack you may break again . Then the other player is on . If you lose the first rack , the opponent has the break .

You could make it 3 breaks max , whatever.
With 'winner breaks 'and short matches it will be difficult to dominate , IMO.

Q

<hr /></blockquote>

OK Qtec is right (god that hurt saying that /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif ) Pool is a different game then most because the opponent can effectively keep his competition from ever playing the game. If a player wins the coin toss and then breaks and runs 9 racks what is his opponent to do? In golf there is nothing like this that can happen. If I go out and play Tiger Woods and he plays unreal and golfs a 60 I still get to play my game and try to beat that 60 with a 59. In pool when a person plays perfect you dont have a chance to win, you dont get to play at all.

In tennis I can go out and play Serena Williams and she can play like a phenom serving at 120MPH and placing the ball in perfect spots. I still get a chance to return these serves no matter how good they are, I at least get to try and can say I had a part in my own fate. When it is my service I get a chance to do the exact same thing to Serena as well. I can serve 120MPH with perfect placement to her and try to do what she is doing to me, I get that chance. But even then maybe she is playing right in the zone and can see some slight eye shift on my service and therefore is returning awesome serves that would ace most people.

Even darts is the same. My opponent could be throwing 180's every time but at least I get a chance to match him. He does not keep me from playing by shooting so good like does happen in pool.

Lets make up a stupid game for the sake of arguement. The game is called dart board. The idea of the game is to stand 6 feet away from the board and try to through the dart into the board, the first person to throw the dart into the board wins, anywhere on the board will do. Now we make a tour and races to 9 are the standard race in matches. I win the cointoss and I then start throwing first, when I miss it is my opponents turn. I throw my dart and it hits the board, I win game one. I do the same in game two, so on in game 3-9 woot! I won the match. Am I better then my opponent? Hell no, I suck at darts but this game is pretty easy and I can beat anyone playing it if I win the cointoss. This is an extreme example of the problem that is arising in 9-ball. The better player does not always win at the pro level anymore because all the players in the top 50 can dominate a set and run out too often and control a match.

In both tennis and golf no matter how good you are your opponent always gets a chance to win by playing better. In pool if you lose a cointoss and your opponent runs 9 &amp; out then you never got a chance, there is nothing like that in Golf or Tennis. For all you know the person who won the match 9-0 was actually the weaker player at that time and had he lost the cointoss the result would have been the reverse and a 9-0 loss. This does happen in pool because too many people have reached the top end of 9-ball. When it comes to the running of the balls there are 50 people in the world at the top that have about the same profficiency at it. They all run open racks with a 95%+ profficiency and therefore they can all dominate a match and not let their opponent shoot barring a bad break.

Now if we take 15 ball rotation though and look at it. Who is going to dominate a game where you have to run out the 1-15 balls? What if you play 1 point a ball and make the race to 90 points? Who in the world has the skills to win a cointoss or a lag and run out the set? Noone I would guess could keep their opponent off the table in this instance or game. It would be too difficult to run multiple racks.

Because of the way pool is and the fact you only get to shoot when your opponent misses the game has to be tough, really tough. The best players in the world when they play their absolute best should not be able to keep their opponent off the table in a complete match. You should always get a chance to win. You would then also see the cream rise to the top of pool with a tougher game. No longer could the 50th best player in the world beat the number 1 player in the world just by not letting him at the table.

Fred Agnir
07-28-2003, 01:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Irish:</font><hr>
OK Qtec is right (god that hurt saying that /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif ) <hr /></blockquote>I'd be right every time if someone allowed me to backpedal and rethink my viewpoint, right?

Fred

Fred Agnir
07-28-2003, 01:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Irish:</font><hr> Because of the way pool is and the fact you only get to shoot when your opponent misses the game has to be tough, really tough. <hr /></blockquote>

You'd think nobody ever heard of an alternating break format.

Fred &lt;~~~ the BCA 9-ball Open was alternating break

Qtec
07-28-2003, 01:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Some people would have taken it that way though. <hr /></blockquote>

Fred , you seem to have some problem with this statement. I could have said 'might '.

With the womens pool being dominated by ex snooker players , Earl losing to Steve in the Mosconi and then Steve beating Earl again in the WPC ,[ meaning that there would be NO US player in the last 8 ]. In these circumstances , I dont think it is unimaginable for some Americans to ask , "WTF is going on with American pool". The state of the UPA , the Open ???

I thought my post was positive .

Q

[ Fred's still mad at me . I assume /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif]

KBuck
07-28-2003, 01:11 PM
Add a requirement to win by two games to the alternating break and you would completely eliminate the chance that you could lose a match where you never missed a shot.

Qtec
07-28-2003, 01:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
OK Qtec is right (god that hurt saying that ) <hr /></blockquote>


Paddy /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif, you dont want to say things like that if you dont want to incur the wrath of the CB upper circle /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dont ask me who they are . I am not privy to that kind of information . /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Q


Oh, Oh , here comes Fred. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Fred Agnir
07-28-2003, 01:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
Some people would have taken it that way though. <hr /></blockquote>

Fred , you seem to have some problem with this statement. I could have said 'might '.<hr /></blockquote> What "some people" do you think you're talking about?

[ QUOTE ]
With the womens pool being dominated by ex snooker players , Earl losing to Steve in the Mosconi and then Steve beating Earl again in the WPC ,[ meaning that there would be NO US player in the last 8 ]. In these circumstances , I dont think it is unimaginable for some Americans to ask , "WTF is going on with American pool". <hr /></blockquote>Who's doing the imagining? You, that's who. The rest of us in America who follow professional pool certainly don't think that Earl losing to anyone is some sort of fluke, or a call for doom in American pool. You've written in the past as if all you believe about America is the worst you've read about us. That's no secret in your posts. So when you post out of the side of your mouth about this, yes, I assume you're writing out of your ass instead, and that it's some coy jab at Americans. In this case, an implication of Jingoism. But of course, you'll feign oblivion, a trait most lowly in my opinion.

The fact is that American pool has been represented globally for a long time now. With the Filipinos from the 70's, Oliver Ortman and Allison Fisher in the 90's, the Taiwanese (esp. former World World Champion Fung Pang Chao) and the rest of the Europeans who have embraced the game, anyone from America who has followed professional American pool has known for quite a while that the Americans don't hold any trump card on the game.

So, no, I don't think anyone in America is saying "WTF is going on with American pool." Those that truly follow it are right here on the internet and subscribing to the magazines. The rest of the 39 Million American Poolplayers wouldn't know Oliver Ortmann from Oliver Twist.

Fred &lt;~~~ isn't getting his point across obviously

Qtec
07-28-2003, 02:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
So when you post out of the side of your mouth about this, yes, I assume you're writing out of your ass instead, and that it's some coy jab at Americans. In this case, an implication of Jingoism. But of course, you'll feign oblivion, a trait most lowly in my opinion <hr /></blockquote>


Fred , i ASSUME that this is an insult. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
To tell you the truth , I dont have a clue what you are talking about . /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Youre not so paranoid that you see a political connotation in everything I say ?

Q

jjinfla
07-28-2003, 05:33 PM
Hey Irish, You made one mistake, you tried to use logic, facts, and deductive reasoning. Not very wise on a message board. LOL

I agree with your analysis about women's pool with the exception of your saying there are about 10 great players. More like 6. Then there is a group of 30-50 that fall into the shortstop category and the rest would be top A players.

But that's their skill level as I compare them to what is out there in men's pool. But they are still Pro's because they are, after all, the best that the women have to offer.

Hey, Bob Eucker had a lifetime batting average of only .200
but he was still a pro.

Jake

UWPoolGod
07-28-2003, 05:37 PM
(esp. former World World Champion Fung Pang Chao) &lt;--- Fred

Whatever happened to that guy? I remember him tearing everyone up for a while. But then again I could say the same thing for CJ Wiley.

HarryDC
07-28-2003, 10:03 PM
"Hey Irish, You made one mistake, you tried to use logic, facts, and deductive reasoning. Not very wise on a message board." LOL

Jake,

What makes you or anyone else who responded to the topic think you can make a living from pool? Yes, counting me 12 people have responded and there have been 326 views. There are 290 million Americans now give or take a few million and only about 10% of them ever picked up a cue.

Jake I wouldn't be interested in pool at all if it weren't for ladies like Fran. I play pool for recreation not gain. The ladies at snooker in the UK all work for a living and so do most of the men as they have no choice. 9-Ball, 8-Ball, snooker, one-pocket all.

Pool is not a spectator sport and never will be. The dream for me was over when I attended my first men's tournament with a 16 table set up and I couldn't see the players I came to watch because they were 5 tables over. Also pool will never be an Olympic Sport for that very reason. No one can watch it but a hand full of people.

Ms. Kelly Fisher the lady mentioned in the BBC article is an other good example. Dear Kelly played a ladies tournament
in Scotland and had to travel all night to Jester's in Swendon to play some mug on the men's challenge tour the next day. The mug's name was Whitley or something like that. She was very tired and Whitley beat her 3 frames to nothing. He had been resting for three days. The men have it rigged so no women can ever make it on the men's main tour. I had to stand in a little area marked spectators four tables over from Kelly and couldn't even see her play.
So if the men's snooker tour folds too. Good for em! I hope that the pigs all have to get jobs in public works. LOL

HarryDC /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

jjinfla
07-29-2003, 06:47 AM
Quote Harry:

What makes you or anyone else who responded to the topic think you can make a living from pool?
_________

Hi Harry, I used to think the same thing about bowling. They could only seat a few dozen people behind the lanes. Yesterday I happened to turn on the Championship of bowling and they had four lanes set up with bleachers behind the lanes and seating on both sides of the lanes. Must have been several hundred people in the audiance. Never saw that before. And the winner won $300,000.

Of course bowling has always been fortunate in that they have always had TV coverage right from the start with Whispering Joe. But as far as pool I doubt we will see it become profitable for the players or the sponsors. And it seems that the pool fraternity is just too naive to understand that it is the sponsors who have to make money before the players will ever see decent wages. It is the old trickle down theory.

And the format has to be changed too. I would probably lean toward a point system much like the APA uses in 9-ball just to make the game more interesting.

And arenas have to be set up, much like the US Open and Las Vegas, or the way the WPBA does it.

Anyway, that is my opinion, and I doubt that I will see any change in pool in my lifetime. And going to watch a men's tournament under the present circumstances just does not interest me much anymore. Like you say, paying for seats and then having the player you are interested in seeing is playing on a table blocked from your view, is not appealing.

Getting front row seats way on the left side and then have your player play all her games on the table way on the right would be very discouraging.

Jake

Qtec
07-29-2003, 11:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
You've written in the past as if all you believe about America is the worst you've read about us. That's no secret in your posts. So when you post out of the side of your mouth about this, yes, I assume you're writing out of your ass instead, and that it's some coy jab at Americans <hr /></blockquote>


I bring up subjects that I think are important . Mostly they are related to America . This is an American based forum so I dont think that I can be faulted for that.
Apparently , for most people , the subjects that I bring up , are subjects that nobody wants or dares to talk about . I think I can safely say that based on the number of views and the number of responses.[ I assume ]

eg. I brought up the subject of Tulia. All I asked was how could this happen ? Not that it happened in America , but that it could happen at all .
Especially in a country that calls itself the champions of Democracy and is willing to invade other countries to demonstrate it . [ there I go again ] /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Its as if people want to look the other way , ignore it , pretend it never happened . I can accept that people are busy with their lives and this doesnt directly affect them but why are most not even willing to talk about it ? Thats the thing that gets me .
If It doesnt worry you that 49 people can be arrested , 19 sent to jail , [ 1 man for 99 years ] on the word of a cowboy hat and a Texan accent . To me thats beyond belief .

The way you judge me [ anti- American , Liberal { eg8r } ] or coward [aka the French ] is probably the same respose the people would get if they agreed with me .

We are not going to change the world in an instant , but you have got to start somewhere. Discussion , without predjeduce would be a start.

Sometimes I have maybe gone too far , if so , I apologise . In an effort to get some kind of dialog going I can be provocative . I'm new to this game [ Chat/ CB ] so I am learning .

I have no intention to hurt or insult anyone on this board , even eg8r /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif [ mumble mumble] /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I am not anti American , although I am against your present administration because of what they are doing and how they are doing it . Not just to the rest of the world [ which I happen to be part of ] but to American Democracy . [ check out what the Italian PM has been up to - the US is heading in the same direction [ Re - the Patriot Act ].



GW escapes being called a liar on a technocality and there are still no weapons of mass destruction , however much you want to play with words or reinvent the English language ! Oh I forgot , its Weapons Programs now. So the US attacked Iraq because Saddam was THINKING about producing weapons , ........ I see ???????

A lie is a lie, or not?.


If you are interested I've got another beaut. BTW, I dont go looking for these things.

Ever heard of the Nevada State County affair . This one takes the biscuit. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Its a good job I'm thick skinned . /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think I would win the prize for the most abused poster on the CB!

And the most understood . /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I am not your enemy Fred. Really /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Q

Irish
07-29-2003, 11:07 AM
Pool could make it as a spectator sport and become alot more profitable to the players if it was marketed right. This game has some of the richest history, most interesting personalities, and when it is played loose and not in the tight, dresscode, mute, snooker mimicking way it is played on TV now can be very entertaining. The list of sponsers that would be possible for pool if it could prove its appeal would be awesome. Alchohol, Casino's, Airlines, Jewellry, Car Companies, the list is endless of things that pool can connect the audience with, not too mention the actually pool equipment companies.

Pool does it stupid right now though. The superbowl is a huge affair and tons of people enjoy watching it whether they play football or not. Even if you dont watch the NFL normally alot of guys will hook up with buddies and watch that game. It is on normal live TV and makes its money through advertising. What does pool do? Well we have a US Open and instead of putting the finals of the event on live TV and trying to attract new fans to the sport we make it a Pay Per View that is only going to attract the people who are already fans and completely does NOTHING to make the sport bigger then it is or attract new fans and introduce the sport. Same thing with the world championships which were not on TV where I am. I can sure watch a stunning episode of Slamball or maybe even a two hour special Crocodile Hunter "The Death of Steve" but god forbid they put the finals of the biggest pool tournament in the world on live TV and find out people actually get interested in pool. Pay Per View is a dumb idea. Get an open ended TV slot and tell the players they are going to have advertisement breaks during their match every 4th game. When the ads come on the players wait to start the next game, they dont keep playing so that we can miss what happens. You dont see the NFL playing during commercials and cropping the game. How popular do you think football would be if it went to commercial at 7-7 and when you got back they said "well the score is now 14-10, we had some great action while you were away". The sport would become a joke and lose popularity fast.

Pool also does not have to be mute on TV. We are not playing snooker here folks and many of the players that naturally play pool are not silent when they play normally. Pool would do better if players played like they normally do in the pool hall and communicated. People watched "The Color of Money" and saw this rich environment of characters and the social interaction while playing the game that took place, then they turn on the TV and watch a pool match totally devoid of talking and personality. It is fun and natural to watch the players interact as they do battle, anything less and people are not going to be interested. Few sports are silent, pool does not have to be either.

If I had the resources I could make this sport alot more popular then it is today. If someone like the Don King of pool ever appears this sport could really show what it can do.

Hopster
07-29-2003, 11:28 AM
Ever heard of the Nevada State County affair . This one takes the biscuit. &lt;--Qtec

Whats this one about ? Let me warn you though, if it has something to do with graft and corruption in Nevada politics youre only going to put me to sleep, cause its all old hat.

Steve Lipsky
07-29-2003, 12:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Irish:</font><hr> Pool also does not have to be mute on TV. We are not playing snooker here folks and many of the players that naturally play pool are not silent when they play normally. Pool would do better if players played like they normally do in the pool hall and communicated. People watched "The Color of Money" and saw this rich environment of characters and the social interaction while playing the game that took place, then they turn on the TV and watch a pool match totally devoid of talking and personality. It is fun and natural to watch the players interact as they do battle, anything less and people are not going to be interested. Few sports are silent, pool does not have to be either.<hr /></blockquote>

Irish, pool is definitely not done correctly right now, but I disagree with your last point. Tennis has almost no interaction between the players, as do a whole host of sports. Football players do talk to each other, but for the most part the TV audience doesn't hear it. I do not think this is a dealbreaker.

Also, I think it would come off pretty bad if you had the players using "poolisms" and the like while playing. I have a match between Keith McCready and Morro, where in the last game Keith screams out "Lookie here Dice!" Now, to a poolplayer, this is hilarious. It's just funny. But I shudder to think how a non-degenerate like myself would view this. Changing the station in horror might be one way /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

If turning pro pool into The Color of Money is what you are after, I am surprised. I don't know many players that want it to go that way. "Rich environment of characters"? Were we watching the same movie? "Social interaction of players"? You want to see Efren play a safe and say "Get out of that one, Kimosabe."?

I think interaction between players serves to lower the viewability of a sport. It gives the impression that it's not a very difficult game, because focus is not required.

I think the only way to improve pool's current stake in the viewing habits of America is for the UPA to pay SportsCenter to carry results of its tournaments on its bottom ticker. Simple as that. Sports fans will become interested without even really knowing it. They will learn the names, the formats (say, race to 9), etc. That, combined with production values on par with Cardiff, and it's only a matter of time before the public demands it.

- Steve

Fred Agnir
07-29-2003, 01:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> I am not your enemy Fred. Really /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Q
<hr /></blockquote>There are certain rules, both written and unwritten when posting in discussion forums. Politics and religion have been discouraged since the early days of the internet. Unless of course you're posting to a political or religious forum.

If your underlying tones or even in your case your blatant political views dominate your posts, your persona, or in general define who you the poster are, then you're going to get lambasted. Not just for your viewpoint (everyone has opposing viewpoints on every subject), but for the simple fact that you are completely ignoring universally understood netiquette. It reeks of in-your-face arrogance.

If you feel that it somehow is your job to bring to light all that you deem wrong in the world (or in America), then I think you've got the wrong forum. Plus, you'd be pretty shallow to think that the majority of us don't think of these issues. If you feel that it somehow is your job to stir the pot or "keep the thinking juices flowing," then I think you are living in a hole full of delusions of pedestals. You're not on a pedestal. You might be in a hole.

But, I'm a fair guy. If everyone, the majority, or even just the moderator/BD wants you to continue with your style of posting with its very unnerving subject undertones, anti-American inuendos, jingoism implications, then by all means... have at it. But, that means I (and everyone else who cares to) get to hammer back, right?

Fred &lt;~~~ cannot believe this pretentiousness

Qtec
07-29-2003, 03:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
There are certain rules, both written and unwritten when posting in discussion forums. Politics and religion have been discouraged since the early days of the internet. Unless of course you're posting to a political or religious forum. <hr /></blockquote>

You have lost your objectivity and are beggining to babble.

The Rule for Politics and Religion applies to bars , not the internet !

I have checked the Rules of the board and you are more guilty of breaking them than I am . I couldnt find the unwritten rules anywhere!

The whole point of the internet is the exchange of information. The way you suggest this forum should be run , is on the lines of a Dictatorship or a Stalinist regime. No criticism of the Government. Not even allowed to ask awkward questions .

I notice you never object to politics being discussed when its pro American. Or are you going to tell me that before I came on the board politics werent discussed ?


[ QUOTE ]
but for the simple fact that you are completely ignoring universally understood netiquette. It reeks of in-your-face arrogance <hr /></blockquote>


This 'netiquette' exists only in your head.

Arrogant ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Moi?

Even if I am , who cares ?


[ QUOTE ]
you've got the wrong forum <hr /></blockquote>



Ever considered the possobility that YOU might be on the wrong forum ?




[ QUOTE ]
But, I'm a fair guy. If everyone, the majority, or even just the moderator/BD wants you to continue with your style of posting with its very unnerving subject undertones, anti-American inuendos, jingoism implications, then by all means... have at it. But, that means I (and everyone else who cares to) get to hammer back, right?

Fred &lt;~~~ cannot believe this pretentiousness <hr /></blockquote>




LOL .

Freedom of speech , ever heard of it ?

The whole point of having a democracy is the right to question and to be able , without fear of prosecution , discuss every day events that affect all of us .

Or did we fight the Nazi's for nothing .

Pretentious ?


Being intelligent doesnt neccessarily make one wise . You will learn this once you get older .


Is that arrogant enough for you ?


Q

Vagabond
07-29-2003, 06:27 PM
Cead mile failte romhat!
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Irish
07-29-2003, 07:31 PM
I think you give the non-poolplaying public too much respect Steve. These are the same people who made the OJ Simpson trial the most watched TV news brodcasts ever. These are the people who want to watch the next Tyson fight just to see if he wont flip out and bite someone elses ear off. These are the people that make Dennis Rodman one of the biggest stars of the NBA not due to his skills but due to his ecentric attitude.

Dont forget that while tennis is a quiet game for the most part the biggest stars are the ones that stand out. John MacEnroe (spelled that wrong) will go down as one of the most popular tennis stars ever and people loved to watch the guy not only because he was great but also because he was colorful and ya never knew what he was going to do next. Aggasi is calmer no doubt but compared to most of the people playing the game he is full of personality and that is why he is so popular. Even when Sampras was the top player in the world people wanted to see Aggasi.

I would also laugh like hell at Keith saying that in a match, most people watching pool would probably like watching Keith play alot whether they play competitively or not, he would be one of the biggest hits on TV for his antics. "Get out of that one Kimosabe!" OMG if Efren ever said that in a match I would be rolling in the isles, he is not one you would expect that from but I could just see it, Earl's pissing him off with antics and trying to hype up the crowd and all of the sudden Efren hooks the bejesus out of him, grins, and says that. That is some good TV!

I dont believe people want squeeky clean sports and they dont want to watch silent robots stepping up to the table in complete silence and running balls with no emotion. One thing that is laughable about pool is we have some of the most character of any sport, we have some of the greatest stories and a image made for the high stakes world, and we try to hide it and play the catholic schoolboy image on TV, people know it is a sham but it is a boring sham too. They instead turn to the NBA or NFL where they can guess who the next person on the team will be to spend the next 10-20 behind bars.

I dont agree that people would be turned off by some yapping, some antics, and some character to the game. I feel this would really let the public know the players and in time they would get to know them and relate to them. It is tough to know the players the way they play the game right now, it is like watching robots play and I even know most of the guys and know they are not normally so boring.

Like it or not Earl is good for the game, he brings some spice and gives us something to talk about. Like him or hate him but he will be remembered forever due to not only skill but for his personality. You can say the same thing about Fats, he trash talked, he gambled, he hustled, and he was loved by the public.

Just my opinion, I might be wrong but the way things are going right now it would be amazing if the sport could drop any further so why not try something new?

Ken
07-29-2003, 08:34 PM
Keith was playing Allen Fang in a Joss tournament and put the cueball behind a wall of balls next to the short rail. This was a safety that left no possible shot, a lost art among present day players who seem to be content just to leave an easy jump shot. Fang could only bank off the long rail and try to tie up the balls that were in the way.

Keith's comment to Fang after Keith put him there was "Welcome to America."

He was beating Fang pretty bad and Fang just walked over to the TD and lit up a cigarette without racking or saying anything to Keith. When Fang was finished with his cigarette instead of resuming play Keith just said "Break time!" and walked away. Fang stood there wondering and then said "time out?".

Afterwards Keith proceeded to win the event beating Alcano 9-0.
KenCT

Fran Crimi
07-30-2003, 05:19 AM
We went through that a little with the WPBA. "Show more personality," we were told. The problem with it is that it's distracting to try to keep the spectators amused with conversation and concentrate on playing at the same time.

They had the same problem with televised golf, too, but the golfers refused to give in to the demands of the producers to show more personality. They just flat-out refused. In fact Tom Watson was quoted as saying, if we left it up to the spectators, Jack (Nicklaus) and I would be mud-wrestling on the 18th hole. That was back in the 70's.

There are other ways to draw attention to the players, like for instance some of the funny Tiger Woods commercials. They're great and that's where you can see some personality. But when you watch him play in a tournament, it's all business and you don't see much personality at all.

The pool pros need to be showcased in other arenas to draw attention to the game. That's how the audience will get to know them. Not by acting up during a tournament.

Fran

pooltchr
07-30-2003, 06:11 AM
Fran,
I don't think a little bit of personality during a match is necessarily a bad thing if it is natural and not fake. Can you imagine Vivian staying quiet during ANY match? I don't think it detracts from her game, but rather just being herself. I don't suggest we let Vince McMahan orchestrate an event, but players could be a little more animated. It is still, after all, a game.

Great point on getting the players in the public eye outside of matches. NASCAR drivers have done some great commercials for their sponsors and raised their own visibility at the same time (DJ- Why don't you race the truck?) Unfortunately, it seems to be somewhat of a "chicken or egg" question. Sponsorship would raise awareness of the sport, but without a lot of awareness, how do you get the sponsors?

Fred Agnir
07-30-2003, 07:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
You have lost your objectivity and are beggining to babble.

The Rule for Politics and Religion applies to bars , not the internet ! <hr /></blockquote> And right off the bat you're wrong, so why bother continuing? You obviously know nothing about internet forums. Did you bother looking up "Netiquette"? There are probably a thousand sites on the subject. Are you so arrogant that you think they're all wrong and you're right?

[ QUOTE ]
The way you suggest this forum should be run , is on the lines of a Dictatorship or a Stalinist regime. No criticism of the Government. Not even allowed to ask awkward questions .<hr /></blockquote>You're so laughable. You've got Don Quixote Syndrome.

[ QUOTE ]
I notice you never object to politics being discussed when its pro American. Or are you going to tell me that before I came on the board politics werent discussed ?<hr /></blockquote> Yeah, pretty much. As I said, standard netiquette practice by seasoned internet forum posters has always shown restraint from religion and political discussion in non-political or religious forums.




[ QUOTE ]
This 'netiquette' exists only in your head.<hr /></blockquote> Again, very laughable. Couldn't figure out how to do a search?
[ QUOTE ]
The whole point of having a democracy <hr /></blockquote>This isn't about democracy silly boy. It's about appropriate conversation in appropriate places. You don't get it. But you're too arrogant to realize that you don't understand it.


[ QUOTE ]
Being intelligent doesnt neccessarily make one wise . You will learn this once you get older .<hr /></blockquote> No Kidding? How would you know. You show neither. You're naive. Shallow. Pretentious. And write like a college kid who hasn't seen any real worldly events, but think that you in your little hut have the Keys to the Kingdom. You're a dime a dozen. Ever wonder why so many people have gotten on your case in your life?


[ QUOTE ]
Is that arrogant enough for you ? <hr /></blockquote> I wouldn't expect anything less.

Alfie
07-30-2003, 08:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> There are other ways to draw attention to the players, like for instance some of the funny Tiger Woods commercials. They're great and that's where you can see some personality. But when you watch him play in a tournament, it's all business and you don't see much personality at all. <hr /></blockquote>Miserak's "even when you're just showin' off" Lite beer commercial was an excellent example.

Fran Crimi
07-30-2003, 02:40 PM
Both good points, teach. I'm sure there's a middle ground with the personality thing. As for exposing the players in other settings, I agree, it's a tough one. How do you do it successfully without a major corporate sponsor? How do you get the sponsor to notice us in the first place?

I don't know. We're working on that one. LOL

Fran

TomBrooklyn
11-20-2003, 06:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>Politics and religion have been discouraged since the early days of the internet. Unless of course you're posting to a political or religious forum.<hr /></blockquote>By the way, there is a relatively new forum specifically set up for pool players to discuss Christianity (http://www.billiards-pool.net/modules/newbb/viewforum.php?forum=12&amp;72). You will probably recognize some of the posters over there from this board.

#### leonard
11-21-2003, 06:43 AM
Ninebball is like Pro Golfers playing Minature Golf.####

#### leonard
11-21-2003, 12:38 PM
Fran I just want to welcome you back to the CCB you have been missed.

I have always maintained that we should just copy the Pro Golfers. Just like Russia stealing the ABomb secrets but that was 40 years ago and poolplayers still haven't figured it out yet. Today the TPGA sits on nearly 400 million in the bank. Five TPGA course probably worth another 400 million and the Poolplayers Hall of Fame is in a cardboard box at the BCA. ####