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View Full Version : Hohmann's Greatest Shot

tateuts
07-27-2003, 10:15 PM
The WPC coverage sure was good. I have at least 12 hours of tape. There was so much good play it was unreal. To me, the best overall play was by Bustamante, although he didn't make it to the final. He was truly spectacular in his matches.

The best shot of the match was in today's (taped) final. Hohmann breaks and has no shot on the one ball, sitting up near the corner pocket. He pushes out into the dead middle of a cluster of balls, on the opposite lower side rail nearly the full table length, hopelessly hooking the one ball from any sort of kick shot. Bear in mind the cue ball is almost completely surrounded. The announcers are puzzled. Alex is puzzled. I am puzzled. What could he be thinking? This was surely a mistake, right? The blocking ball is only a short distance in front of the cue ball, so even a jump shot is out of the question. Maybe a table length masse?

Alex passes the shot back to Hohmann. Before getting out of the chair he's already screwing together shorty. He takes his jump cue, bridges on the side rail almost hitting straight down on the cue ball, pops the cue ball up high sinks the one ball.

My jaw dropped. He is an amazing player. He deserves to be world champion.

Chris

NH_Steve
07-28-2003, 05:01 AM
WEI Table (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

Fred Agnir
07-28-2003, 06:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> Bear in mind the cue ball is almost completely surrounded. The announcers are puzzled. Alex is puzzled. I am puzzled. What could he be thinking? This was surely a mistake, right? The blocking ball is only a short distance in front of the cue ball, so even a jump shot is out of the question. Maybe a table length masse?<hr /></blockquote>This was the problem with the commentary at Cardiff (that I mentioned in another thread). IMO, the only shot was to push out to a jump shot. The one ball was in a bad spot to push out anywhere else. The commentators should have picked up on this. The jump shot wasn't that difficult (to jump over) given today's jump cues (which both of them use).

[ QUOTE ]
passes the shot back to Hohmann. <hr /></blockquote> I can't recall what the score was, but IMO, for these professionals, I think Alex made a mistake here. The score would have been an important factor, but with the one ball close to the pocket, he had good odds.

Fred

Deeman
07-28-2003, 08:17 AM
Fred,

Remember, Alex did take a much more difficult jump shot two games later with almost no chance of making the ball compared to the easy one he gave to Hohmann.

Dee

Fred Agnir
07-28-2003, 08:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman:</font><hr> Fred,

Remember, Alex did take a much more difficult jump shot two games later with almost no chance of making the ball compared to the easy one he gave to Hohmann.

Dee <hr /></blockquote>Yup. In that one, there was no choice. He had to play it, and the kick was blocked. In the first one, he had a choice. I think he made the wrong decision. But, then again, I'm not him and hindsight is 20/20.

Fred &lt;~~~ never misses from the seats

Steve Lipsky
07-28-2003, 08:35 AM
Fred, just curious if Hohmann's push was located close to a rail or not? Pagulayan's kind of a little guy, and maybe he felt he couldn't appropriately reach it?

- Steve &lt;-- just guessin'

Fred Agnir
07-28-2003, 08:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Fred, just curious if Hohmann's push was located close to a rail or not? Pagulayan's kind of a little guy, and maybe he felt he couldn't appropriately reach it?<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, it was close to the rail. Even I would have shot it. Oh wait, I'm gigantic next to Alex.

Fred

Fred Agnir
07-28-2003, 08:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote NH_Steve:</font><hr> WEI Table (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html) <hr /></blockquote>
Someone will have to check the tape, but this is about what the layout looked like:

START(
%AF6I0%BT3L4%Cc5W2%DU2F6%E]0X5%GV3I3%Hd4X1%Im0P1%P^7J2

)END

From what I recall, he pushed to a jump shot while breaking up the 3 and 8. I think that's what he did, but tateuts will surely correct me if I'm mistaken.

START(
%AF6I0%BT3L4%Ce5X4%DU2F6%E]0X5%GV3I3%Hg8Z6%Im0P1%P`1Y7

)END

Anyway assuming that's what he did, I thought it was a great move, but I think Alex should have gone for the jump.

Fred

Sid_Vicious
07-28-2003, 08:49 AM
I saw his choice almost automatically. The one residing that close to the corner, added with the now more direct in-line "toss" toward the OB...sure it was a little gutsy being it was such a clutch match, still I'd expect to hit that jump and make the ball with a good idea of where the CB is going to roll. It surprises me that other players don't figure the percentages on those shots, and go for them, opening up a table nicely. Oh well, what do I know...I DO know I'd have hit that jumper, only with a dart stroke instead of the pendelum ;-) sid~~~happy to see somebody playing that kinda strategy, it makes pool lots more fun to watch

Steve Lipsky
07-28-2003, 09:34 AM
Wow. I think Alex made the right choice by giving it up. As a matter of principle, I think you have to let the other guy shoot from there. If you take it, miss, and sell-out, you'll have the knowledge that you chose to take a shot where you could not see the object ball - when you didn't have to. You'll get a nice long year to think about it, too.

And if this shot is really a hanger with a jump cue, seriously, what is this game coming to? What position are you allowed to NOT like yourself from? Just plain silly, if you ask me.

If the 1 were a little closer to the pocket, I'd say Alex should have shot it. From where it is, it has to be hit too well.

- Steve

P.S. Kudos to Hohmann. A brilliant push. If Alex takes it, there's a ton of pressure on him - he'll be thinking to himself, "Wow, if I miss this I'm going to look like a fool." Whereas if Alex gives it back, Hohmann can reassure himself that, while it's a tough shot, it's much better than he had after the break. Very, very nice push.

Fred Agnir
07-28-2003, 09:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> If the 1 were a little closer to the pocket, I'd say Alex should have shot it. From where it is, it has to be hit too well.<hr /></blockquote> I'll say it was closer to the pocket than what I showed. They showed the angle as the stick sees it (right behind Thorsten), and it looked almost straight in. But you're right, if this shot is like a hanger, then what is this game coming to?

For professionals of those guys' caliber, it looked like a hanger.

Fred

Addendum. The first time I saw this move on TV was in the very first Challenge of Champions won by Mike Lebron. That's a good 10 years ago. He pushed to a straight in full ball jump shot. Rempe didn't hesitate in giving it back. Lebron drilled it with a shorter cue with ease and ranout.

tateuts
07-28-2003, 10:46 AM
You have to see the tape to appreciate the brilliance of the push-out. I would have also made him shoot.

The reason why the shot looked so difficult was because the cue ball was close to the blocker. But, since it was so close to the rail, Hohmann could hit down on it with control and pop it up nicely without hitting it too hard.

Chris

tateuts
07-28-2003, 11:52 AM
Personally, I think of jump shots as a "last resort" so it was an interesting twist to see it used as an offensive weapon. You never know what's going to happen with a jumper. Even these guys knock the cue ball off the table. I would have probably pushed to a two-rail kick safety position, which is purely a defensive move, but Hohmann made an impressive offensive winning move out of his jump shot push.

Chris

Steve Lipsky
07-28-2003, 12:26 PM
Chris,

Another issue I have with the jump cue is that it has reduced the level of skill needed for this very play.

Pushing to jump shots has been around for awhile (as Fred mentioned), but when you are only allowed to jump with your full cue it is very difficult. You have to be extraordinarily precise with where the cueball lands on the push, because if it's a full ball you have to jump over, you're in real trouble. Instead, you have to push to about 1/4 ball jump or so (to really be confident in your chances), and this is no easy task.

Hohmann had the luxury of just pushing to where he'd be safe. He knew that regardless of where the cueball actually landed, as long as he was safe, he was in a good position to get the push back with a shot to win.

(I'd never thought of this before, but now that I have, it's clear as day this is another biting indictment of these god-forsaken debacles.)

- Steve

tateuts
07-28-2003, 12:54 PM
I agree. That's why I'm digging that bunjee out of mothballs and heading to the nearest table. I can't wait to pull that move on my next unsuspecting opponent!

Chris

tateuts
07-28-2003, 01:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I think that's what he did, but tateuts will surely correct me if I'm mistaken.

<hr /></blockquote>

Fred,

I'm not like that. I think you're a nice guy. Did I do something to you?

Chris

Fred Agnir
07-28-2003, 02:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I think that's what he did, but tateuts will surely correct me if I'm mistaken.

<hr /></blockquote>

Fred,

I'm not like that. I think you're a nice guy. Did I do something to you?

Chris <hr /></blockquote>No, no. I think you wrote that you taped it. Watch it. I'm hoping that I remembered it correctly. If I didn't, then surely you'd correct me. I'd hate to think we had an entire discussion on what seems like an interesting discussion only for me to have completely remembered the shot incorrectly!

Fred

tateuts
07-28-2003, 02:05 PM
Oh, OK thanks.

Wow, you did that from memory? Gee whiz..

OK - I'll look at the tape tonight and try to check the table layout.

Chris

Qtec
07-28-2003, 02:13 PM
What , you assumed ? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q

Fred Agnir
07-28-2003, 02:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> What , you assumed ? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q <hr /></blockquote>Yeah, I assumed you have a lack of reading comprehension. I assumed correctly.

I assumed a decision from a recollection of ball position. That's why I said that someone should check.

You assumed weak traits of an entire nation. But you don't bother checking. You just spew and regurgitate. That's stereotyping. Wow, hardly seems like the same ball field. But, if it's all the same to you, nothing I say will make any sense. And it obviously hasn't.

I could use a filter.

Fred &lt;~~~ grows weary of explaining explanations

Qtec
07-28-2003, 02:28 PM
What weak traits ?

Q

Fred Agnir
07-28-2003, 02:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> What weak traits ?

Q <hr /></blockquote>I thought no better. You're trying feign oblivion, even though you've gotten bitched at by at least three or maybe four other posters for your idiotic American-bashing stereotyping posts.

Search for yourself. Then come groveling. But first, grow up. That should take ... well, it'll never happen. So, I won't hold my breath. You understand me, Non-Comprehension Boy?

Fred

tateuts
07-28-2003, 09:32 PM
Fred and Steve,

I mapped out the tables off the tape. Fred's memory is amazingly close to the actual situation. Alex broke and didn't make anything (a rarity in these games). Hohmann was looking at this situation:

START(
%AE3G0%BS7J4%Cm4X7%D]8D2%Ef9Y1%Fl1Y6%GS1H4%H_5F2%IW4X4%PZ7I7

)END

He had the two rail kick safe if he wanted it. Instead he pushed into the 6 ball leaving the table in this situation:

START(
%AE3G0%BS7J4%Cl4X8%D]8D2%Ef9Y1%Fm4Z3%GS1H4%H_5F2%IW4X4%Pj4Z5

)END

Diagraming it on my table, this left about 5" edge to edge between the cue ball and the 5 ball blocker. He easily jumped the 5 ball and pocketed the one ball.

This final match is well worth watching. Both of them are great players.

Chris

tateuts
07-28-2003, 11:13 PM
Steve,

I whipped out the Bunjee and tried the shot a few times. I could easily jump the 5 ball bridging off the rail and hitting steeply on the cue with a fair degree of control. I could make the 1 ball about 1/3rd of the time. I couldn't make the jump with my regular cue. Moving the cue ball over to a point where I had to bridge off the table, I couldn't consistently jump the 5 ball at such a short distance, and had very little control over the cue ball.

I think Alex also gave up the shot because the table was such a mess.

Chris

Rod
07-28-2003, 11:55 PM
Chris,

That ball is far enough away from the corner it certainly isn't a gimme. Any unintentional side and it is easily missed, unless the aim was just off to begin with. Being that jacked up doesn't help aim either. I'd really have to think about that one before I passed because of where the two lies. I guess I'd just have to ask myself if I feel lucky. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod

Steve Lipsky
07-29-2003, 07:26 AM
Chris,

Just out of curiosity, where did Hohmann pocket the 2? From what I have seen, the jump cues are very unpredictable when it comes to leaves. It would not surprise me if you said the cueball, after making the 1, ran into the 2/7. If this is so, this might be another reason Alex gave it up.

- Steve

Sid_Vicious
07-29-2003, 08:40 AM
His angle, maybe 10-15 degrees into the corner pocket sent the CB naturally into the end rail. It was somewhat predictable where the CB was going to roll, just not the precise control point these pros like to play to. I'd say that for an opening shot for the game, it made very good sense. Yea luck certainly has a little to do with jumps, and yet I don't really beilieve that to be the dominant feature in this one. The balls were simply positioned well after the roll out for that jump and position...sid

Steve Lipsky
07-29-2003, 08:51 AM
Sid, I totally agree. I think it was a perfect push because Alex was probably going to give it up, and Hohmann had a good chance to run out with it.

Hohmann forced Alex's hand, imo. Championship play.

- Steve

tateuts
07-29-2003, 10:51 AM
Steve,

Hohmann was at 12 games, Alex at 8. My memory is a little faded of the actual game and I don't have access to the tape right now, but I recall that he hit the one ball with enough speed control to kill the cue ball off the headrail. So I think he shot the two in the side and tried to break up the 3/6 cluster with the cue ball, which he basically did not do in the push out. He got a bad roll and hooked himself behind the six with the 3 sitting in front of the corner pocket. He kicked the three ball into the corner off the top side rail, then the cue ball came back and he was looking at a possible cross side bank on the 4. I think he finally got cold feet and figured his miracle shots were due to dry up, so he played a thin cut safe on the 4. I don't even recall if he won the rack.

Basically, Hohmann was walking on water. He's only 24. He's very athletic, has a thunderous break, plays offensive nine ball, and has magnificent touch. I have a feeling we're going to be seeing a lot more of him.

Chris

borderhopper09
10-29-2003, 12:17 PM
What channel did the WPC 2003 air on? Ive been looking for a channel that might air it but i cant find any.

tateuts
10-29-2003, 02:52 PM
The channel was "Fox Sports World" - one of those channels you are surprised to find are included in your cable tv package. It was really terrific coverage lasting about a week. The early matches were fun to watch, races to 5, with a whole bunch of different players. The later matches were incredible. Hohmann and Bustamante were playing at god-like levels. The Strickland/Davis match was really a duel. In the final matches, Hohmann was as near to perfect as you can realistically be at this game.

Chris

koolcuedude
10-29-2003, 03:20 PM
One of the nice things about playing with friends or for money is you can alter the rules to suit your tastes. Most of the time, the other guy goes along if it is not too drastic.
Example is if I win, I rack my own balls.
The example used on this thread was the push out. I never understood or liked the push out. If a guy makes a bad break, has no shot, make him shoot and give up cue ball in hand. Why let him off the hook for his mistake. When you play me for money, there is no push out, or we do not play.