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buddha162
08-01-2003, 12:13 AM
In a very old archived post regarding layered tips, Sid_Vicious wrote:
"As to the height issue, I was advised to make the height of the sidewall 2/3 the dimension of the radius of the ferrule."

Does "sidewall" mean the height of the tip before it reaches the curve? Or does the entire tip (center of dome to ferrule) need to be less than 2/3 of the ferrule radius?

I just had a tiger tip mounted 2 weeks ago, and it certainly looks thick on the ferrule. Any help would be appreciated!

Roger

Rod
08-01-2003, 12:41 AM
Roger,

It's up to you, I usually have at least 25 percent of the tip height cut down. If people want more or less that is fine also. It will play a little more firm, like a broken in tip per-say. I just don't like that big ole hunk of leather sticking way up in the air. It is possible to miscue easier if the side breaks down. So if you don't like it that tall they should trim it down for nothing.

Rod

buddha162
08-01-2003, 02:23 AM
Thank you for the quick reply!

I definitely would feel more comfortable with a lower tip. So you're saying that they could just trim the tip I already have mounted on my cue? If so that would be great, as I am a bit reluctant to replace a tip so soon after it was installed.

Roger

Sid_Vicious
08-01-2003, 08:21 AM
Roger...I remember that post. It becomes a moot point whether you make it 2/3 from the center of the tip or the sidewall before the crown. I did mine using the sidewall before the rounded area began, and yet the physics aspect reinforces the first condition of making it the total overall height. Like Rod said, the tip will be less likely to "act up" if trimmed moderately(or extremely if you like a hard, crisp hit like I do.) You are in great shape if you are too tall now, a simple trimming will work. Note, if it is a layered tip, be a little more tedious in trimming it down. You don't want to heat up and separate a layer by using too much brute force.

I've gone through many phases of tip testing, leaving them as tall as possible was one of them, being frugal I figured I'd save the cost of replacing all of those tips ya know. Well, the tall tips required maintenance much more, especially in the beginning, and many layered tips delaminated within the first three layers from the base. I theorize the keeping the height 2/3 the base would have eliminated most, if not all of the delaminations. It becomes a physics issue. I now trim my tips to a very low level because I thrive on having a very hard, crisp hit. I replace my own tips, so cutting mine down real short is not a problem as far as having to get a new tip too soon. Also, I am a staunch believer that once a tip is crowned, that you never scuff or pic at the tip. My short tips last a long time with that non-activity. Chalk, that's all you need. "Tip still shiney? Chalk thoroughly every time, don't saw and pic your tips to death." It seems to be a social, peer developed habit to scratch and attack the tip with tappers, scuffers, shapers and pics, cuz you've seen everyone doing it. That don't make it right though. If you are miscuing, chalk and refine your stroke. One or both is your problem, not the condition of the tip's surface, EXCEPT for needing chalk that is...sid

pooltchr
08-01-2003, 08:46 AM
Great post. Picking a layered tip will also increase the chances of layers separating, resulting in a flat spot on the top of the crown.

buddha162
08-02-2003, 05:46 PM
Hello Sid,

I hear you about not fussing over the tip too much. I was never one to scuff and buff my old tips, but with certain Lepros you just have to reshape them every so often. It was a constant struggle to keep a nice crown w/o mushrooms, and I'm hoping my new layered tip will do better.

I will bring my cue back to Comet Billiards to cut down the tip a bit. I hope the guy will understand that I need to actually REDUCE the tip instead of just reshaping it.

Thanks for replying!
Roger

Fred Agnir
08-02-2003, 05:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote buddha162:</font><hr> Hello Sid,

I hear you about not fussing over the tip too much. I was never one to scuff and buff my old tips, but with certain Lepros you just have to reshape them every so often. <hr /></blockquote>IMO, if you find yourself needing to do that to a tip, then it's time to take the tip off and get a new one.

There are certain LePros that are good from the getgo, and some that are not. THere's some educated guess work, and then there's the guys who do some pre-conditioning to the tips. However, a bad tip is a bad tip. But, there are good tips in a box of LePros.

Fred &lt;~~~ bite tester

Scott Lee
08-03-2003, 03:05 AM
buddha 162...Just to give you another opinion, I never trim down my tips, I happen to like the thicker tip. It makes no difference whether the tip is thick or thin (as long as it's not too thin). It's the stroke that delivers the result, not the thickness of the tip. If you want to have it trimmed down, fine. But it is not necessary...jmo

Scott Lee

bluewolf
08-03-2003, 07:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> buddha 162...Just to give you another opinion, I never trim down my tips, I happen to like the thicker tip. It makes no difference whether the tip is thick or thin (as long as it's not too thin). It's the stroke that delivers the result, not the thickness of the tip. If you want to have it trimmed down, fine. But it is not necessary...jmo

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

tap tap tap I chalk before each shot and that is all.Is not this also related to dime vs nickle, a personal preference? I do not notice that either.

Do people develop more 'preferences' the better they get? As for me,I just notice my stroke, freeze, that kind of thing. Dont pay too much attention to the tip /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

buddha162
08-03-2003, 01:40 PM
Hello Fred,

Yeah I gathered from reading this and other forums that LePros can be inconsistent, good and bad ones mixed in one box. I suppose I was happy with mine, just figured shaping and scuffing was normal; everyone at my pool hall in Taiwan constantly fussed with their tips. Guys there take huge, heavy files and literally hammer their tips into submission.

So far, even with the too-tall Tiger I am happy with the layered tip. The hit is a little on the soft side for me, but I think once it's reduced the hit should firm up a bit (as Sid said).

Roger

buddha162
08-03-2003, 01:47 PM
Hello Scott,

the more I look at my tip the more structurally unsound it seems. I have no problem believing that on a heavily-englished shot, the thing could pop right off. Adding to the problem is a slight mushroom that's developed...

But, I completely agree with you that tip type/shape/size/etc takes a far back seat to good stroking.

Thanks for replying!
Roger

SpiderMan
08-03-2003, 07:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote buddha162:</font><hr> In a very old archived post regarding layered tips, Sid_Vicious wrote:
"As to the height issue, I was advised to make the height of the sidewall 2/3 the dimension of the radius of the ferrule."

Does "sidewall" mean the height of the tip before it reaches the curve? Or does the entire tip (center of dome to ferrule) need to be less than 2/3 of the ferrule radius?
Roger <hr /></blockquote>

I'll jump in with another answer that may be a little repetitive of advice you've already received. Since I've done a lot of tips for Sid (he's now doing a fine job of them himself, and branching out into tips-for-hire), I have a very good idea of his preferences.

Sid used to run his tips a little taller than he does now, but having the SIDEWALL 2/3 of the RADIUS is not a bad idea. Note that he said radius, not diameter, that's a factor of two difference. If you want to think in terms of diameter, a reasonable concept might be to make the total tip height, from the base to the top of the crown, 2/3 of the diameter. These two expressions are not necessarily equivalent because the second depends on crown shape, but it's ballpark.

To simplify further, I could generalize and say that if you have a nominal 13mm shaft then a reasonable height for a sidewall on a new tip could be between 0.150" and 0.200" after installation and shaping. I think Sid's now running closer to the lower end of that range. He wants a hard ping from the get-go, and isn't concerned about longevity now that he's rolling his own instead of paying for the work.

SpiderMan

Rod
08-03-2003, 08:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
To simplify further, I could generalize and say that if you have a nominal 13mm shaft then a reasonable height for a sidewall on a new tip could be between 0.150" and 0.200" after installation and shaping. I think Sid's now running closer to the lower end of that range. He wants a hard ping from the get-go, and isn't concerned about longevity now that he's rolling his own instead of paying for the work.
<hr /></blockquote>


Yep, for those with rulers that puts 3/16" at 0.18750. That is just about perfect for me give or take. I ain't that choosey.

Sid, rolling his own. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod

buddha162
08-11-2003, 01:43 AM
Hello SpiderMan,

Thanks for making that perfectly clear. I got Bill from Comet Billiards to trim down the tall tip, and now it looks and plays great. Only problem is, I had a nice nickel radius going for about 2 days, and now the darned thing is somewhere between a nickel and a quarter.

I have a Tiger M installed (probably won't do that again), and am wondering if I can just buy a Willard Cue Tip Shaper and do it myself (there is not alot of mushrooming as the tip compressed a bit before it got cut down to size, what little there is doesn't bother me). Will this delaminate a layered tip? I think on Talisman's site it says this is okay.

If it is okay to shape my tip back to a nickel using the Willard, how exactly do I do it? From diagrams I see on various websites, you place the Willard Shaper on the floor and twirl your entire cue with the tip jammed up against the concave!? That looks kinda dangerous to me.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, I know I shouldn't fret about my tip this much but it does affect my concentration/focus/stroke etc.

Thanks,
Roger

SpiderMan
08-11-2003, 07:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote buddha162:</font><hr> Hello SpiderMan,

Thanks for making that perfectly clear. I got Bill from Comet Billiards to trim down the tall tip, and now it looks and plays great. Only problem is, I had a nice nickel radius going for about 2 days, and now the darned thing is somewhere between a nickel and a quarter.

I have a Tiger M installed (probably won't do that again), and am wondering if I can just buy a Willard Cue Tip Shaper and do it myself (there is not alot of mushrooming as the tip compressed a bit before it got cut down to size, what little there is doesn't bother me). Will this delaminate a layered tip? I think on Talisman's site it says this is okay.

If it is okay to shape my tip back to a nickel using the Willard, how exactly do I do it? From diagrams I see on various websites, you place the Willard Shaper on the floor and twirl your entire cue with the tip jammed up against the concave!? That looks kinda dangerous to me.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, I know I shouldn't fret about my tip this much but it does affect my concentration/focus/stroke etc.

Thanks,
Roger <hr /></blockquote>

Roger,

The Willard shaper is a pretty decent device for maintaining the crown of your tip. It's main fault is probably that it tends to "clog up" with leather fibers fairly quickly, so it's not all that good for doing the original shaping on a new tip, ie too much material to be removed. I am assuming you are talking about the circular-disk Willard tool with the depression in the center and the measuring cutout in the side, not the smaller keychain tool that looks a little more rectangular.

The advice you were given on how to use it is pretty good. Just put the shaper on the floor (carpeted floor will work best) and carefully pin it in place using the edges of your shoes. Then put your tip into the depression and twirl the shaft between the flat palms of your two hands while applying a little downward pressure. Don't be tempted to lean on it too hard, as the grit in the depression is fairly coarse and it can chew up a tip quickly. Just shape a little, check results, shape a little more, etc. The depression in the Willard tool is made to the desired final shape of the crown (they are available in both nickel and dime).

If the grit in the depression clogs with leather fibers, you need to clean it out or the shaping will not be accurate. Just use soap and water, scrub with an old toothbrush, rinse thoroughly (any soap on your tip would be bad, bad news), and dry well.

Once you get your tip shaped, every now and then just put the Willard tool lightly on it and twist it a little by hand. Then look at the tip and see where the tool is leaving scratch marks. If it is scratching all over, then your tip still matches the tool's internal radius. If it is scratching only at the edges and not at the top of the crown, that means your tip has flattened a little. If you check this often, you probably can just reshape it by hand until it scratches everywhere. It won't ever get severely out of shape so you won't often need to repeat the upside-down shaping maneuver.

SpiderMan

buddha162
08-12-2003, 01:29 AM
Spiderman,

Once again, Thank you for the detailed instructions. It's good to know the Willard Shaper is okay for my laminated tip and that I can do it myself w/o bothering my cue guy.

thanks,
Roger