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stickman
04-04-2002, 01:22 AM
I've never used anything other than the standard LePro tip. If I change, what could I realistically expect to gain? My tip is probably at least a year old, and probably has another year or more left in it. I don't shape my tip all that often, just pik it ocassionally. I'm satisfied with the way it plays. For those using other tips, do you think it improved the playablility of your cue, and how?

04-04-2002, 03:14 AM
I just got rid of my lepro Medium-hard tip as I found I was getting way too much deflection with it... I had my buddy put on a hard layered buffalo tip which I absolutely love!... deflection has gone way down and I am once again spinning the ball with more confidence.

Troy
04-06-2002, 12:31 PM
Maybe someone like TonyM or Bob Jewett could explain how one TIP could cause more deflection than another TIP.

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: d0wnt0wn:</font><hr> I just got rid of my lepro Medium-hard tip as I found I was getting way too much deflection with it... I had my buddy put on a hard layered buffalo tip which I absolutely love!... deflection has gone way down and I am once again spinning the ball with more confidence. <hr></blockquote>

04-06-2002, 01:30 PM
Deflection is a result of the sum of vectors both forward and angular. What most people call "deflection is really the vector sums plus tip slippage on the cueball. A more discriptive term is "squirt". I have found with my cue and different shafts that squirt can vary with shaft stiffness as well as defferent tips, do mostly to the amount of tip slippage.

Tom_In_Cincy
04-06-2002, 02:07 PM
Now you have gone and confused me...
The amount of "deflection" a cue shaft has is proportional to the amout of "squirt" the cue shaft departs onto the cue ball?

Or are the two terms the same?
I had always thought that deflection was a characteristic of the cue, and squirt was the amout the cue ball would deiviate from the desired path?

Please explain.

stickman
04-06-2002, 07:17 PM
Confused? You guys shouldn't talk about me like that. LOL Truth is, all this is confusing to me. I'm wondering, if I drive an hour away to have a new tip installed, and have to leave my stick there and pick it up several days later, should I just put another LePro on or try something else? What experiences have others had, etc. Most seem to recommend a MH. I was of the impression that a soft tip would grip the ball better, but now I'm hearing that a hard tip grips better? My Lepro holds it's shape well and I seldom use a shaper on it. I ocassionally use a TipPik to help it hold chalk better. If you give recommendations, please include what you feel the advantages are. As I said, I'm not sure I understand the differences in soft, medium, medium hard, and hard, and why you would choose one over the other. I was thinking of trying a Talisman Pro Med. and wondered what to expect.

04-11-2002, 04:08 AM
I belive what I said in my post was deflection is the sum of the forward and side directed vectors. In addition to this there is some sideways "push" caused by the tip slipping off of the ball. The term squirt allows for other forces to be included in the description such as the slip of the tip. If you put heavy chalk on the tip and shoot a stop shot from 8-12 inches with force (should spin for ~10 sec) you will see the oval shape of the chalk mark. This shows the slip at the start followed by the grip mark and then the exit slip.

04-11-2002, 04:12 AM
I have tried most everything but always have come back to LaPro or triangle. I was on Johnny Archers site the other day and he said he used LaPro mostly.

Fred Agnir
04-11-2002, 07:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Now you have gone and confused me...
The amount of "deflection" a cue shaft has is proportional to the amout of "squirt" the cue shaft departs onto the cue ball?

Or are the two terms the same?
I had always thought that deflection was a characteristic of the cue, and squirt was the amout the cue ball would deiviate from the desired path?

Please explain. <hr></blockquote>

Shaft Deflection: The amount of sideways movement of the shaft due to lateral loads. Often described in terms of whippiness/stiffness.

Cueball "Deflection": The *angle* at which the cueball departs from the original axis of the stroking shaft immediately after contact with the tip. Since the engineering term "deflection" doesn't truly apply, it has been coined "squirt."

Although there are theories about how much of the shaft's whippiness/stiffness contribute to its squirt characteristics, I don't think anyone has concluded that it's a proportional relationship. What *has* been concluded is that regardless of shaft whippiness/stiffness, the squirt is based on the tip offset and the amount of mass involved in the collision between the tip and the cueball. The more mass at the tip end, the more squirt. And visa versa.

Fred

Doctor_D
04-11-2002, 07:14 AM
Good morning:

After listening to numerous recommendations, as well as an overview from my coach, I elected to use the Moori Medium density tips. I have found that these tips provide an excellent "bite" on the cue ball and are serving my needs well.

Dr. D.

Fred Agnir
04-11-2002, 07:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Ron Montgomery:</font><hr> If you put heavy chalk on the tip and shoot a stop shot from 8-12 inches with force (should spin for ~10 sec) you will see the oval shape of the chalk mark. This shows the slip at the start followed by the grip mark and then the exit slip. <hr></blockquote>

I'm going to disagree with your conclusion. The oval shape of the chalk can be explained with a more plausible idea. With english, the cue tip will roll while in contact with the cueball. This has been shown on the high speed Jacksonville video on hard hits. The lighter chalk marks before and after a heavier chalk mark is simply from chalk exploding off the tip at contact.

A tip that slips will miscue for sure.

Fred

04-11-2002, 08:00 AM
I had always used LePro until about 2 months ago when I decided to try a Talisman WB Medium-Hard. I don't foresee ever switching from Talisman. They provide (at least for me) much better control of the cue ball, and for some reason I have been able to make extremely thin cut shots much more consistently with a Talisman tip than I did with LePro (maybe because the tip sticks better to the CB and causes less squirt?) I don't know, but I can say that for $9 through Mueller's it has improved my game. (pretty cheap investment if you ask me)

SpiderMan
04-11-2002, 08:07 AM
Fred,

Where can I see this video, or read a summary report?

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fred Agnir:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Ron Montgomery:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; If you put heavy chalk on the tip and shoot a stop shot from 8-12 inches with force (should spin for ~10 sec) you will see the oval shape of the chalk mark. This shows the slip at the start followed by the grip mark and then the exit slip. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I'm going to disagree with your conclusion. The oval shape of the chalk can be explained with a more plausible idea. With english, the cue tip will roll while in contact with the cueball. This has been shown on the high speed Jacksonville video on hard hits. The lighter chalk marks before and after a heavier chalk mark is simply from chalk exploding off the tip at contact.

A tip that slips will miscue for sure.

Fred <hr></blockquote>

Fred Agnir
04-11-2002, 10:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SpiderMan:</font><hr> Fred,

Where can I see this video, or read a summary report?

SpiderMan <hr></blockquote>

I think if you contact Bob Jewett, he will provide you the tape and the notes for $30. The notes are cryptic, and the video can (and has) put people to sleep. It's really a video of a study on tip/ball interaction. It's definitely not an instructional.

In Jewett's words:

A word of warning to would-be purchasers: the tape was made to study
the physics of tip/ball, ball/ball and ball/rail interactions. It is
not an instructional video. There is no sound, and the notes are
sometimes sketchy. (I hope eventually to make a better set.)


A Google.groups.com search for Jacksonville Project, rec.sport.billiard, Bob Jewett gets:

<a target="_blank" href=http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=jacksonville%20project%20&amp;as_ugroup=re c.sport.billiard&amp;as_uauthors=bob%20jewett&amp;hl=en>http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=jacksonville%20project%20&amp;as_ugroup=re c.sport.billiard&amp;as_uauthors=bob%20jewett&amp;hl=en</a>

Fred

JimS
04-11-2002, 11:57 AM
If you go to eBay and do a search for Talisman Tips you'll find you can buy them for about $5 each.

04-11-2002, 12:13 PM

04-11-2002, 02:39 PM
You may be right Fred, but I question the idea that exploding chalk will produce the exact pattern I refer to.

I suppose being able to see this chalk mark on the cueball may be effected by the stiffness of the shaft.

Best, Ron.

Rod
04-11-2002, 04:05 PM
Quote"
I've never used anything other than the standard LePro tip. If I change, what could I realistically expect to gain? My tip is probably at least a year old, and probably has another year or more left in it. I don't shape my tip all that often, just pik it ocassionally. I'm satisfied with the way it plays. For those using other tips, do you think it improved the playablility of your cue, and how?


Jim, I don't think you can expect to gain anything. If your tip is hard and worn out, then or before that time, changing the tip is a good idea. Those le-pro's are a good tip, but they vary in hardness a great deal.

MikeM
04-11-2002, 05:43 PM
I also agree with Dr. D. I'm not that experienced, but I have tried a number of different tips (LePro, WB, Triangle) and I notice a big difference with the Moori. Just feels like I have more control of the CB. I draw much better with a Moori too. JMHO

MM

Cuemage
04-11-2002, 07:40 PM
Stickman,
I have also only ever used a Le Pro...I've decided to try either a Talsiman or a Moori just so I can experience the differences...I'm just waitin &amp; watchin others for feedback...

Tha Cuemage

06-07-2002, 08:54 AM
Do I know you ?

TonyM
06-07-2002, 09:53 AM
"Maybe someone like TonyM or Bob Jewett could explain how one TIP could cause more deflection than another TIP"

As far as I'm concerned it can't. My own tests with the aim and pivot point haven't shown this effect, and I've seen the results of tests done at Predator with tips of various hardnesses. They report no variation in squirt angle, with respect to tip hardness. Theoretically this is to be expected.

In fact I've heard two differnt claims from players. That either soft or hard tips reduce defletion (squirt). They both can't be right. In fact neither are.

I could see one or two possible explanations for an apparent reduction (but perhaps not actual) in squirt with a change to a harder tip.

One explanation is that the new tip had a different curvature than the old tip. Thus a slightly different amount of sidespin is generated for the same amount of stick offset.

The other possibility is that a harder tip is a bit better at transferring energy to the cueball (coefficient of restitution for you science types). So you get a bit more cueball speed for a given stick speed. Hence you might tend to use a bit less overall speed. While speed itself does not change the squirt angle (for a given tip offset) it can affect the amount of swerve present. Less speed allows more swerve to influence the results. So the net effect is the appearence of less squirt.

The final possibility is that the player just imagines the benefit (often the real result). Since he or she expects to get less squirt with a harder tip (for whatever reason) they tend to see it.

But finally, since squirt is independant of tip hardness, this allows a player to select a tip hardness for other reasons.

Tony
-likes hard tips, but for other reasons

TonyM
06-07-2002, 09:56 AM
I think that the idea of partial tip slippage has been completely ruled out as a possible cuase of squirt. The Jacksonville project tapes showed that squirt can still occurr even with no tip slippage whatsoever.

The conservation of momentum theory is the best current explanation for this phenomena. See Ron Shepard's "Everything you always wanted to know about squirt" paper. Perhaps someone can post the link?

Tony
-shaft stiffness is also not a cuase of squirt btw

Jay M
06-07-2002, 10:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: MikeM:</font><hr> I also agree with Dr. D. I'm not that experienced, but I have tried a number of different tips (LePro, WB, Triangle) and I notice a big difference with the Moori. Just feels like I have more control of the CB. I draw much better with a Moori too. JMHO

MM <hr></blockquote>

Here's my personal take on the Moori MH which I use on my cue. Note that I use the same cue for breaking and playing.

On the break, a new moori has too much give to transfer the full power of the shot. During shooting, the new moori will "grab" the cue ball causing the english to magnify a bit. I can get about 1.5 times the distance in a power draw shot with a new moori vs a lePro.

To compensate for the breaking difficulties, I use a moori which I had to shape down due to layer seperation. It is approximately 1-16th of an inch to 1-8th of an inch on the side below the beginning of the taper. With this "shortened" moori, my break is full speed and I get about 1.25 times the english I do with a similar lePro.

A note on the lePro. It's on a meucci old style (non-red dot) shaft that I can get some really wicked english with. I'd estimate that with a red dot shaft or predator shaft, there would be an additional .25 or so increase over the lePro by the moori.

So, my suggestion is that, if you decide to go with Moori, take one tip, cut it in half as evenly as possible, try to split it on a layer, it'll come out straight if you do, and then use half of the tip on each of your shafts (you do have a spare, right?) The moori's NEVER need to be shaped, mine are almost a year old now and I haven't done anything except lightly scuff them twice since I put them on.

You'll sacrifice a bit of your english, but your accuracy will be better and you'll get a more accurate transference of energy from the tip to the CB.

Jay M

P.S. I should note in passing that in my conversations with Earl over the weekend, he says that he hates layered tips because of the lack of feedback on a minor miscue. With the "cut in half" version of the tip, I don't have that problem.

TonyM
06-07-2002, 10:11 AM
As far as the tip affecting the cue's performance, I think that this is basically dead end (to some degree). I've always maintained that a good example from the majority of the decent quality tip manufacturers will satisfy all of your performance requirements. This leaves wear and consitency as the main deciding factors in tip choices, not performance. A good Lepro is as good as any tip out there, as far as performance. However, some of the new layered tips can potentially last a bit longer (but this depends on your tip car regimen more than anything I believe). The main disadvantage of the Lepro is the variability of quality in a typical box of 50. A good Lepro is a decent tip, it's just not so easy to find a good one! The best of the layered tips are also good tips, but they are very consistent, batch to batch, and tip to tip. This is the main advantage as far as I'm concerned.

Don't expect any improvement in spin with a change in tip hardness. I don't think that spin is related to tip hardness at all within the range of available leather tips.

The real aspect of a tip material that limits the amount of spin that can be aplied is the ability of the tip to hold chalk. Some tips just don't hold chalk well at all, and need to be scuffed or picked often. I like to avoid such tips for confidence reasons. Some tips that I've found hold chalk well: firm Elkmasters, med hard brown Water Buffalos, Triangles, Moori Med hard, Tiger Everest, Triumph
So choose a tip hardness for other reasons (sound and hit are a good reason, as well as wear and stability). This is why I prefer harder tips (on the high end of the med-hard scale). Hard tips hold their shape longer, but more importantly, they hold their hardness at a consistent level longer.

Virtually all soft tips start out soft, but get progressivly harder as they compact and wear down with use. Thus the tip you get at the end of it's life is substantially different than the tip you started out with. The only solution that I know of for soft tip lovers is to change the tips more frequently.

I prefer to put the tip on and forget about it until it is time to change it. A hard tip allows me to do this.

Find a tip that you like, and try to stick with it. Get a second shaft and experiment with other tips to see if you can find a better one for you. But keep the original style tip on the first shaft as a standard.

Tony
-likes Water Buffalos

SpiderMan
06-07-2002, 10:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Lee R:</font><hr> Do I know you ? <hr></blockquote>

Maybe, where do you play?

SpiderMan

Alfie
06-07-2002, 08:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> See Ron Shepard's "Everything you always wanted to know about squirt" paper. Perhaps someone can post the link? <hr></blockquote>
http://www.thebilliardlist.com/Shepard/squirt.pdf

Alfie
06-07-2002, 08:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> Don't expect any improvement in spin with a change in tip hardness. I don't think that spin is related to tip hardness at all within the range of available leather tips. <hr></blockquote>
Wouldn't a harder tip increase both linear and angular velocity [coefficient of restitution and all]? Spin/speed stays the same though.
/ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

06-08-2002, 05:33 AM
I believe that a 13mm shaft will minimize deflection.Fred

TonyM
06-09-2002, 12:09 AM
" I believe that a 13mm shaft will minimize deflection"

And this belief is based on?......
Consider that 3 cushion cues are inherently low squirt (deflection) and they commonly use 11.5 to 12mm diameter tips. Squirt is a consideration since they use english on many (most?) shots. You will rarely see a 13mm tip.

All elase being equal, a smaller diameter will produce less squirt due to reduced effective end mass. But if means are taken to reduce the end mass (ala Predator and Meucci) then the diameter can be whatever one wishes.

Tony
-uses a 12.25 mm shaft

TonyM
06-09-2002, 12:14 AM
You hit the nail on the head Alfie. The spin speed ratio stays the same. Also, the contact time goes down as the hardness of the tip goes up (and vice vera) so that the magnitude of the force during the contact time is essentially the same regardless of the tip hardness.

The energy transfer efficiency can change (more cueball speed for a given cuestick speed) and this might be of benefit for slow tables (use a hard tip) and a detriment for fast tables.

Tony

TonyM
06-09-2002, 12:16 AM
Thanks Alfie, I was too lazy to go look for the link (I've got a printed hard copy on my desk at all times!)

Tony

06-11-2002, 10:23 PM
I respectfully disagree that a smaller diameter will produce less deflection. I feel that a 13mm tip properly shaped will reduce deflection. You can obtain Mike Sigel's view on this subject by viewing his Winning Edge on Pocket Billiards tape. I play with a Szamboti cue 13mm shaft and have no problem with deflection whatsoever. Fred

TonyM
06-12-2002, 03:15 PM
You may agree or disagree, that is your perogative. However, there is no "science" behind the suggestion that a 13mm tip reduces squirt. There is valid science behind the notion that smaller tips reduce squirt, and evidence aplenty (3c cues, snooker cues etc.).

While I respect Mike Sigel as a player, he would not be the first (nor the last) great player to not understand the science behind squirt. In fact, a great player does not need to understand any science in order to play well. He only has to "play".

Tony
-and I've actually done experiments to prove it...

06-15-2002, 11:19 AM
I did not say slippage was the cause of squirt, I said it can be part of the sums. Slippage can add a element of sideways push until the tip flattens enough to gain purchase on the cueball.

06-15-2002, 11:33 AM
.............

http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Shores/3376/dood.gif D0wnt0wn Brown

06-15-2002, 11:37 AM
Given your explanation, why would you then say (other post)you think a 13mm tip has less deflection than smaller tips with less mass?

Frankly, as you know, I have been using 12 to 12.5mm tips for several years. I have two shafts with 13mm tips on them and go back and forth from time to time. I have tried using the 13mm shafts for breaking and it is clear that more deflection occurs than when I use a 12mm shaft for breaking.

ted harris
06-15-2002, 01:49 PM
You are right, he does use mostly le pro's. I think I just put one on for him in Chelmsford at the Joss Tour final. He likes the ones that are medium hard.

ted harris
06-15-2002, 01:55 PM
IMHO, moori is the hands down winner for consistency.

TonyM
06-17-2002, 12:41 AM
Certainly if the tip slips the ball will "squirt". But normal squirt happens even if the tip does not slip at all. So slippage is not really important with respct to squirt. Any slippage is essentially a miscue.

Tony
-has shot hundreds of practice shots in a row with sidespin without the tip slipping even once. and the ball still squirted!

TonyM
06-17-2002, 12:45 AM
Well all else being equal (and that's the important distinction), a 13mm tip cannot produce less squirt than a smaller tip diameter. However, it can be shown that tip diameter can be made irelevant, as long as the effective end mass is minimized. Thus it could be possible to produce a 15mm shaft that has less squirt than a 12mm shaft (with all else "not" being equal).

But in general, smaller produces less squirt.

Tony

Fred Agnir
06-17-2002, 07:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: rmont:</font><hr> Given your explanation, why would you then say (other post)you think a 13mm tip has less deflection than smaller tips with less mass?
<hr></blockquote>

Easy. There are two Freds. One believes with no backup that a 13mm tip has less deflection. He goes by "Steady Fred" or some such handle. The other is me.

Fred Agnir &lt;~~~ believes the tip with less mass will inherently add less squirt, all other things being equal.

06-17-2002, 09:30 AM
Tony, If the contact time of a hard tip is less then where is my thinking wrong? soft tip = more contact time = more friction = more bite = more spin.

Also in a previous post used the words swerve and sqiurt as to different things. could you explain?

Fred Agnir
06-17-2002, 09:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> Tony, If the contact time of a hard tip is less then where is my thinking wrong? soft tip = more contact time = more friction = more bite = more spin.<hr></blockquote>

The thinking breaks down when you say that more contact time = more friction. It is not necessarily true. Friction is the result from the chalk mostly. Tip hardness or tip contact time isn't part of the friction.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: anonymous:</font><hr>Also in a previous post used the words swerve and sqiurt as to different things. could you explain? <hr></blockquote>

From the FAQ:

1. ** What does XXX mean?
.
.
.


Squirt
A cue ball hit with side spin does not start out parallel to the axis
of the cue stick, but instead moves slightly away from that by an
angle up to four degrees,...It is also called
"deflection", but since there are many different deflections in pool and
billiards, and because this phenomenon is critical to playing well with
side spin, it gets its own name.

Swerve
A cue ball hit with side spin and an (even slightly) elevated cue
stick will curve in the direction of the applied English. Elevate
more and it's masse. You elevate on nearly all shots, whether you
intend to or not.

--------------------------

Fred

06-17-2002, 05:34 PM
Fred, more contact time may not equal more friction between cue tip and cue ball but if you want to throw an object ball a softer stroke will produce greater throw specifically because of the greater contact time increasing the friction between cue ball and object ball.

jjinfla
06-17-2002, 05:39 PM
I just had a Tiger tip put on my Predator shaft today. I was going to put on a LePro but the guy talked me into the Tiger. Basically, because he wants me to test it for him. If I don't like it then I will just change it to a LePro. I think that is the tip that comes with a 314 shaft. Jake

stickman
06-17-2002, 10:08 PM
I ordered some Talisman WBs today. I can't wait to get them and give them a try.

06-17-2002, 10:12 PM
Tony pls take a minute and look at another ref point on this subject Winning One Pocket page 295 ref squirt. I respect your opinion as well as the opinions of others on this board. I usually just lurk and rarely post, however, on this topic I did refer to Sigel's tape and now this uno pocketo book. By the way is Tony M Tony Mougey? Stedyfred

TonyM
06-18-2002, 12:17 AM
I haven't got a copy of winning one pocket. Could you quote from it? No Tonym is Tony Mathews from the frozen north!

Tony
-actually it's nice and green up here right now!

TonyM
06-18-2002, 12:35 AM
"Tony, If the contact time of a hard tip is less then where is my thinking wrong? soft tip = more contact time = more friction = more bite = more spin."

It's not so simple. More contact time does not neccessarily mean more spin, or more friction. But the real answer is related to what is known as the "spin/speed ratio". Getting more spin for a given speed would be the goal of any method that produced enhanced draw (for example).

Softer tips do produce a longer contact time (but a very small change is what we are talking about here) but they also change the speed. Softer tips reduce the speed a bit. It turns out that the change in speed always exactly balances out the change in contact time, so that the total "impulse" (the time dependant force at work on the ball during the contact time) remains the same. Therefore the spin/speed ratio remains unchanged. Thus you don't get a free lunch.

It is possible however that a very soft tip might allow a larger tip offset (greater eccentricity) and this effect alone can change the spin speed ratio. But the downside is reduced speed. My experiments with rubber tips showed that you could indeed get a higher spin speed ratio, but the loss of speed ultimately meant worse draw, not better. This is because the cloth had more time to rub-off the the backspin when any distance was between the two balls.

As I said, you don't get a free lunch!

"Also in a previous post used the words swerve and sqiurt as to different things. could you explain?"

Squirt is the instantaneous change in cueball angle (compared to a centerball hit) when sidespin is used. It is away from the direction of spin (the ball moves to the left when right sidepin is used).

Swerve is the slight masse effect that curves the cueball towards the direction of spin, when sidespin and a slightly elevated cue (the cue is virtually always elevated a little bit)is used. Squirt and swerve are opposing forces that can sometimes balance out.

At short range with high speeds squirt almost always dominates (the distance is too short for swerve to take effect). At long range with reduced speed (and especially soft draw with sidespin) swerve can oppose squirt sometimes exactly. For jacked up shots swerve often dominates (you actually have to aim for a thicker hit with outside english for example).

Tony
-I swerve when I've had too many beers, but I digress...

Fred Agnir
06-18-2002, 06:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> Fred, more contact time may not equal more friction between cue tip and cue ball but if you want to throw an object ball a softer stroke will produce greater throw specifically because of the greater contact time increasing the friction between cue ball and object ball. <hr></blockquote>
A softer stroke will produce greater throw specifically because "softer" means "slower." And slower relative ball surface speeds means greater throw. But this wasn't about throw.

Fred

06-18-2002, 09:26 AM
It is possible however that a very soft tip might allow a larger tip offset (greater eccentricity) and this effect alone can change the spin speed ratio. But the downside is reduced speed. My experiments with rubber tips showed that you could indeed get a higher spin speed ratio, but the loss of speed ultimately meant worse draw, not better. This is because the cloth had more time to rub-off the the backspin when any distance was between the two balls.

Tony, thanks you brought a lot of things to light and also left me with a lot of questions. I'm wanting to go to a softer tip with the thoughts of playing tighter games with more cue action coming off the rails at low speeds and less distance traveled. Until now the thought of less speed creating less draw at long distances never crossed my mind but is a factor that will have to be taken into account.
I'm looking forward to trying out some new tips to get a feel for myself.

I don't remember where I heard it but someone once said that the better you get at pool the more complicated the game becomes.

Thanks for the response

06-18-2002, 10:25 AM
I think you are still missing my point. Anytime a cueball is struck off-center there will be some slip. The cuetip will slide on the side of the cueball until it's force can overcome the static mass of the cueball. This has nothing to do with a misscue. In my original post I offered the following test.

Place a OB and cueball about 8" apart. Using a stop stroke hit the cueball offcenter. When the cueball stops spinning look at the chalk mark left by the cuetip. You will see a oblong smear. The middle of the chalkmark is where the tip flattens enough to grip the cueball. The starting mark is the result of the tip sliding. Past the middle where the tip flattens is where the tip is slipping off the cueball, the cueball and tip are seperating.

Deflection is caused by the angular forces created by hitting the cueball offcenter. The total deflection is influenced by reaction of the cueball to the cuetip.

Normally you would not notice the added slip component caused by the initial contact of the cueball and cuetip it would just be part of the total but, it is still there.

06-18-2002, 10:39 AM
Thats funny Fred, thanks for the enlightenment.

06-18-2002, 10:56 AM
Squirt-a cueball's direction differing from the line of aim because od being struck off center. The cueball will veer somewhat from the line of aim in the direction opposite that of english applied. The greater the amount of english and force applied, and the more flexible the shaft of the cue being used, the more the cue shaft will tend to bend and the more squirt will result.From my experiences an 11.5 or 12.0 mm shaft will generally have more flexibility than a 13mm shaft and as a result more deflection.Also when I competed at pool I played more str8 pool and one pkt rathr than 9 ball and my cuemaker would use this info when making my cues(stiffer rather than flexible). JMHO! Stedyfred

jjinfla
06-18-2002, 11:13 AM
Theories are nice. Scientists have theoretically proven that a bumble is too big and heavy and its wings too small and slow for it to fly. Good thing they haven't convinced the bumblebee. Jake

TonyM
06-20-2002, 02:20 PM
I agree with your definition of squirt, but not with the cause. I don't believe that flexibility has anything to do with squirt in a general sense. Some claim that more flexible produces less squirt (notably Meucci) even Jack Koehler thinks that a stiffer shaft produces more squirt. Others claim that a stiffer shaft produces less squirt (try out a billiard cue with a stiff conical shaft).

Both cannot be right. Neither are.

The effective end mass of the shaft will influence the squirt angle far more than the shaft stiffness. Thus it is possible to find both very flexible shaft and very stiff shafts that produce low squirt. A model that used flexibility can not explain this. Effective end mass can.

Tony

TonyM
06-20-2002, 02:23 PM
No I think that you are wrong. A ball can be struck off center without any slip at all. Why do you think that it MUST slip? What evidence do you have for the slip? You can see collisions on the Jacksonville Experiment tape (available from Bob Jewett) that clearly show eccentric hits with NO SLIPPAGE. This was filmed with ultra high speed cameras.

With this evidence I cannot see how a claim that every off center hit must slip can be supported.

Tony

TonyM
06-20-2002, 02:27 PM
Actually the Bumblebee example is an old urban legend. No scientist ever made that claim! There is current science that explains the bumblee flight using the extra lift generated by vortices. They built a huge scale model of a flies wing to test out the theory (it "flies" in a tank of viscous liquid).

Tony
-amatuer aerodynamic enthusiast from way back....

06-20-2002, 10:31 PM
Reasonable people can disagree on many topics and we do disagree ref flexibility of shaft and deflection.There are other factors that I could discuss with you ref this subject such as density of the wood and shaft taper, however, I intend to return to my lurking status within this ccb and make no additional comment on this topic since I have no difficulty with deflection. I will crawl back under my rock and browse this board fo entertainment purposes. Good luck with your game! Stedyfred

cheesemouse
06-21-2002, 06:18 AM
stedyfred,
I hope you reconsider and register as this board welcomes your concidered point of view. Adding your views can only help and add to the mix. If you register the 'private message' is most useful and friendly tool. Please be more active as your well thought out replies can help counter balance my more irreverant nature....I too am a feel player but I read all the high tech stuff and hopefully unconciously absorb what I need. Just trying to promote a fruitful garden....Thanks for listening...

Fred Agnir
06-21-2002, 08:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: jjinfla:</font><hr> Theories are nice. Scientists have theoretically proven that a bumble is too big and heavy and its wings too small and slow for it to fly. Good thing they haven't convinced the bumblebee. Jake <hr></blockquote>
This isn't true. This is like a wives' tale. Similar to the idea "scientific theory says that a helicopter shouldn't work." That's just a wives'tale (no offense meant to wives). It's the scientists that came up with the helicopter.

It also isn't true that scientists of old thought the world was flat. It was the scientists that thought the world was round and not the center of the universe.

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks it's impossible to fly a bumblebee to the edge of the world

SpiderMan
06-21-2002, 09:17 AM
Stickman,

I had problems with the Talisman WB tips I tried. Basically they played very hard (harder than the Talisman Pro Series), but the biggest problem was that they didn't want to shape well. Instead of a smooth rounded crown, the fibers would come off and leave a stepped "wedding cake" profile. Here's a link to some pictures:


http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/funkychateau/lst?.dir=/Yahoo!+Photo+Album&amp;.src=ph&amp;.order=&amp;.view=t&amp;.done=h ttp%3a//photos.yahoo.com/

The WB tips are the fifth photo (lower left). Click to enlarge.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: stickman:</font><hr> I ordered some Talisman WBs today. I can't wait to get them and give them a try. <hr></blockquote>

stickman
06-21-2002, 09:31 AM
I just played with my new tip last night. I noticed the same thing about the curvature. (wedding cake effect) The tip kept flattening and required reshaping. I didn't precompress it before installing so hopefully after the initial break-in it will hold it's shape. Even though it looked strange, it played fine. So far I've not been able to tell much difference in play between the new tip and my old LePro. I'll wait until the tip is fully seatted in to evaluate.

06-21-2002, 10:57 AM
Jingle...You got that right! I've gone to Talismans on all my cues, and like you I work the edges with extreme english very well. I don't use WB tips though, the pro line are mine, and XH is the grade. You'd think that these would be too hard for keeping on the CB, NOT! I shoot dry tipped for stroke mechanics practice and move around very well for position. That tells ya something about these tips and how they grab...sid~~does chalk for the edges, and ALWAYS in competition

Troy
06-21-2002, 03:34 PM
While I can not discuss Talisman WB tips, the Talisman Pro tips play consistently. I have been using a Pro Soft (mostly 1-Pocket) for about a year with no touchup required. For 9-Ball I use a Pro Medium and again, no touchup required.

Le Pro on the other hand are notoriously INCONSISTENT from tip to tip. Usually you don't really know what you have until it's been used some. Even measuring a new tip with a durometer I can't predict how a Le Pro will behave.

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: stickman:</font><hr> So far I've not been able to tell much difference in play between the new tip and my old LePro. I'll wait until the tip is fully seatted in to evaluate. <hr></blockquote>

stickman
06-21-2002, 09:46 PM
The tip seems to be holding it's shape now. It still looks a little strange when compared to a non layered tip, but it doesn't have any effect on the way it plays. I put on the WB Med. I like the hit, it holds chalk well, and may have a little better grip than the LePro. I really suspect the biggest advantage will be that this tip will last longer. Only time will tell. I had the undomed tips and pealed the top layer off before I started shaping it, because it was too tall to start with. I put the shaft in my battery operated drill and the live center I've rigged up and used a very course emery board to initially shape the tip. Since then I have used a Willard dime size shaper. I didn't have any problem with the tip delaminating.

TonyM
06-22-2002, 05:21 AM
O.k.....?
Happy lurking!

Tony
-thought it was a "discussion" board. Silly me.