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View Full Version : APA cheapskate antics



Wally_in_Cincy
08-30-2003, 09:49 AM
I did some quick math a while back and if the APA's claim of 200,000 active members is true, then the gross at the central office should be between 4 and 6 million dollars per year.

First let me say that the national team tournament was very well-run. Excellent equipment, plenty of referees and "observers" (The observers were people who were sent to watch a player who was playing above his/her handicap)

Here's the part that bugged me. The APA makes a big deal of stating that every team that shows up in Vegas gets a team check for $350. What I did not know until now was this....the league operator has to pay $250 per team registration fee. I was so dumbfounded I could not believe it. Matter of fact I thought the person that told me this was out of her mind.

Then there's this....my girlfriend's team won an advertised $1000 for 5th-8th place. But the APA only gave them $650 because they had already received $350.

One other small thing. The celebratory bottle of champagne was Koch's, which is cheap and virtually undrinkable. You'd think they might spring for Dom but I guess they're trying to chisel every dollar they can.

I just think these penny-pinching antics make the league look bad.

Steve Lipsky
08-30-2003, 10:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> The APA makes a big deal of stating that every team that shows up in Vegas gets a team check for $350. What I did not know until now was this....the league operator has to pay $250 per team registration fee. I was so dumbfounded I could not believe it. <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Wally. Could you explain this? I'm not sure what you mean, but it sounds pretty shady /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

The other stuff is pretty ridiculous, to be sure.

Thanks,
Steve

Wally_in_Cincy
08-30-2003, 10:43 AM
Sorry if that was unclear Steve.

The APA boasts that every team that goes to Vegas automatically "wins" $350 just for showing up. I was unaware that a $250 registration fee was required several weeks prior to the tournament to ensure the team's spot. Traditionally the league operator pays this but I don't know if he is actually required to pay it. So the "prize" money is only $100 as I see it.

Just seems that a team that worked hard enough to get there should not have to pay an entry fee.

Wally_in_Cincy
08-30-2003, 10:46 AM
Another couple of questions for all you APA players.

How much of your trip to Vegas did your league operator pay?

What are your weekly dues?

What part of that do you get back for a win?

Do you have year-end or session-end tourneys with significant cash payouts?

Wally_in_Cincy
08-30-2003, 10:52 AM
My answers

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> Another couple of questions for all you APA players.

How much of your trip to Vegas did your league operator pay?

<font color="blue">About $1250 per team, depending on how much is in the "Vegas fund" at year's end. </font color>

<font color="red"> BTW most of the teams I talked to from around the country had their entire flight and lodging paid for /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif </font color>

What are your weekly dues?

<font color="blue">$6 </font color>

What part of that do you get back for a win?

<font color="blue">$5.... $1 goes into the "Vegas fund". You have the choice to opt out of the Vegas fund but if you do and your team goes to Vegas you get no money from the league </font color>

Do you have year-end or session-end tourneys with significant cash payouts?

<font color="blue">Year-end tourney yes. Cash payouts no </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

Ralph S.
08-30-2003, 11:45 AM
Just a few more good reasons for me to never join an APA league. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

jjinfla
08-30-2003, 07:07 PM
Wally, The APA listed the payouts on their website. Every team that goes there is guaranteed $350 for finishing 256-512 so they give every team the $350 when they show up. If they finish higher then they get the difference. It is up front money. An advance on anticipated winnings. So if your team finishes where you win $1,000 then you get the $630 difference at the payout desk. I think that just simplifies the bookwork and teams get up front money to gamble with. You might suggest to the APA board that they do not make payouts to a team until that team is eleiminated, but I doubt that anybody else would agree with you. The team that went from here didn't pay for anything. Plane fare or room. Who cares if the LO pays for it or the APA pays for it. The LO here is not complaining. And in reality the money comes from the $35 each team kicks in every week for a year. It is a business afterall. Probably the only successful business there is in pool. Jake

Rich R.
08-31-2003, 08:17 AM
Wally, I understand what you are saying and it is obvious that the APA and all there LO's are making a large amount of money. However, they have never claimed to be a "Non-profit Organization." /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Also, I don't believe the situation is any better with the BCA or TAP. In fact, the APA may actually be a little better.
Until some one starts a better league, the APA is the best choice for many of us. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Jimmy B
08-31-2003, 06:23 PM
A bigger problem I have is if your team wins and you only have 5 players on it you only get 5 tickets out there. If your team had a full 8 players you'd get 8, the team with 5 should get the same value, so they should get some cash back, they pay the same amout as the team with 8 why should't they win the same. I've won more then my share from the APA over the last 10 years, I shouldn't ever complian, but what's fair is fare. Also I was wondering if they really drank the bottle or did what I did and left it closed, I looked at it more of a trophy then a drink. JB

bolo
08-31-2003, 10:15 PM
The business section of our local paper did a story of the pool league business some time back. One league operator they interviewed claimed a league operator could make themselves upwards of $75,000. a year. Does this sound right? To me that carrot on a stick trip to Vegas doesn't mean much, it cost so much to play. Between the travel and weekly expense and all the time, who cares about the trip. If I want to go to Vegas I will just go. My wife is a member of a weight loss group and we did the numbers once on the kind of money they were making and it was shocking. Mean time they expect you to volunteer for everything, or work for them for nothing.

jjinfla
09-01-2003, 05:02 AM
It's called capitalism Bolo - the old American way. The harder one works the more money they make. The LO here started with about 8-12 teams and for the first two years struggled to get by. Now they have 125 teams and most likely are doing well. But they only got those 125 teams by hard work and long hours. It's not all just sitting back and collecting the dues. And for all the hassling they get I doubt that I would do it. It all depends on what the net is. Jake

Rich R.
09-01-2003, 08:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> To me that carrot on a stick trip to Vegas doesn't mean much, it cost so much to play. Between the travel and weekly expense and all the time, who cares about the trip. If I want to go to Vegas I will just go. <hr /></blockquote>
Bolo, I totally agree with this statement.
I play APA for the fun and the prize, of a trip to Vegas, doesn't mean much to me. Since I normally work overtime on Saturday's and, every time my team makes it to the playoffs, I have to give up my overtime hours, so I can play in the playoffs, through the last couple of years, I have given up enough overtime money to pay for at least one trip to Vegas for my wife and me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Some day, when I really feel like going to Vegas, I will go. I won't be holding my breath for the APA to send me.

Jimmy B
09-01-2003, 07:33 PM
Carrot on a stick??? I think you miss the whole point Bolo, who cares about the trip to Vegas? I mean right now you can fly there for under $300 from just about anywhere in the US and I'd bet under $200 from most places and get a room for under $50 a night. This is all about pool and competeing and playing in a National event. It's about seeing how you stack up against other people who love playing as much as you, it's about the competition and the winning. Of course it's not worth it, but go out there and win the Whole thing and tell me the value of that? JB

pooltchr
09-02-2003, 06:45 AM
Our local league has 550 teams. Each team pays the LO $30 per week so the income is $16,500 per week gross. 50 weeks of league scheduled each year is about $825,000 2 employees at the league office in addition to the owners so take out salary for them and the franchise fees and I think they could still afford more than a few airline tickets, hotel rooms, and a bunch of plastic trophys for the players.

bluewolf
09-02-2003, 06:52 AM
Gosh, you can always look at this from the point of view of what does APA and the LO get, which imo is a bundle. But what do I get.

In my area, rates are 7$/hr per person. So on league night, I get one hr free practice whether I play or not,and then, if I play, that is 7$, so also the experience of competition.

Is the glass half full or half empty?

Laura

SpiderMan
09-02-2003, 12:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> Then there's this....my girlfriend's team won an advertised $1000 for 5th-8th place. But the APA only gave them $650 because they had already received $350.
<hr /></blockquote>

HaHaHa! That's one I hadn't heard yet!

My big gripe about the singles tournament payouts was the advertised "prize money" was only half .... if a place "paid" $5000, then you only got $2500. As you can read somewhere in the fine print, the other half of the prize was in "merchandise value". Most of the merchandise was probably donated. Pool gadgets, home stereo gear, etc. I'd hate to pay income taxes on $2500 worth of junk I didn't want, especially junk with real value only a fraction of what I'd be taxed on.

SpiderMan

Wally_in_Cincy
09-02-2003, 01:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>


HaHaHa! That's one I hadn't heard yet!

My big gripe about the singles tournament payouts was the advertised "prize money" was only half .... if a place "paid" $5000, then you only got $2500. As you can read somewhere in the fine print, the other half of the prize was in "merchandise value". Most of the merchandise was probably donated. Pool gadgets, home stereo gear, etc. I'd hate to pay income taxes on $2500 worth of junk I didn't want, especially junk with real value only a fraction of what I'd be taxed on.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah I had heard about that. That's even worse than the scenario I described. I don't understand why they feel the need to chisel nickels and pennies from the top national players when they are making millions. Perhaps they are wishing the Henry Brodt and Scott Tollefson types will get pissed and quit the league and make room for other folks to have a shot at a title /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

Wally_in_Cincy
09-02-2003, 01:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr>
....I was wondering if they really drank the bottle or did what I did and left it closed, I looked at it more of a trophy then a drink. JB <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Jimmy, you drink it and keep the bottle. That way you have the best of both worlds /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
09-02-2003, 01:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> The business section of our local paper did a story of the pool league business some time back. One league operator they interviewed claimed a league operator could make themselves upwards of $75,000. a year. Does this sound right?

<font color="blue">A good league op with an estabilished league should make a minimum of $75K a year. They earn it though. Just imagine having a dozen amateur pool players call you every day to bitch about something /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color>


To me that carrot on a stick trip to Vegas doesn't mean much, it cost so much to play. Between the travel and weekly expense and all the time, who cares about the trip. If I want to go to Vegas I will just go.

<font color="blue">Yeah you're right. But it's not the trip itself, it's the bragging rights amongst your peers. I could probably go to Vegas 10 times on what I've spent on dues and bar tabs /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

bolo
09-02-2003, 01:39 PM
If that is what you get from it then it is for you. But much of what I read on here about the leagues is complaining about the sandbagging so on. Me personally, I compete all the time, often against some of the top players in the world, (with weight of course) and I don't require some one else to structure my schedule, or my playing for me. I just don't see the fun having of it, but that is just me. I much prefer matching up or playing tournaments. The leagues have certainly brought the game to a lot of players but they are very self serving from what I have seen.

Rod
09-02-2003, 01:39 PM
Hard to believe that and they tuck it away in fine print? Well you guys must be easy. LOL Well you and a few thousand others. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Spidey, if you win, you can feel comfort in knowing the next time you flush a chalk holder down the toilet; you might have a few backups. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

bolo
09-02-2003, 01:55 PM
I was in no way begrudging anybody what they make, I am sure they work hard and earn every penny. I was surprised they could make that much. The fact that pool leagues are not for me, does not mean I condemn pool leagues. Many of those players don't gamble or play a speed that would let them win a tournament or even take the game serious. In the league environment they get the chance to compete and experience the thrill of victory or the agony of defeat rather cheaply. There is a guy in my neighborhood who has all his league trophies in his front picture window. Some really take it serious and get a thrill from it and there is nothing wrong with that.

Fred Agnir
09-02-2003, 02:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> There is a guy in my neighborhood who has all his league trophies in his front picture window. <hr /></blockquote> I didn't know you lived in my neighborhood.

jjinfla
09-02-2003, 04:12 PM
Bolo, You are right that many of the APA players don't gamble or play a speed to win tournaments or even take the game seriously. A lot of them have no clue as to what the game is about and have never played an A player or even a good B player. And many actually think that they would have a chance to win against a pro. I mean they really have no clue. LOL. Normally I don't like leagues because then you have to commit to be there every week. And it just goes on and on without end. And of course it is more profitable just to enter local tournaments for $7 rather than keep giving the $7 to the APA. However, I did join the APA 9-ball league because I like the format. It's fun to keep the game close and I get a kick out of seeing our 1's beat the 7's. And watch the 7's choke when they play the 1's. We have our playoffs for the summer session the next two weeks which should make us eligible for the money cup next session where we should win some of our money back. If not, no big loss. It's a lark. Jake

Jimmy B
09-03-2003, 03:28 AM
Bolo I agree with you on many things, but some of us want to get together with a group of people and compete and have fun. You can play any top pro you want for any amount with any spot, but the pressure playing in the APA,BCA, or whatever league you choose is much more. I've played some good players for cash and if I lose I'm out a few bucks, but when there are 7 other people sitting back and praying that you'll do your part for the TEAM it's more pressure then you can imagine. I've seen hundreds of people who thought who the hell they were fold under this pressure, people I've seen do very well in big tournaments. Not to mention the APA (or any national league) are big ponds and sometimes it's fun to be a BIG FISH in a large pond rather then sit around in your own 55 gallon tank. Maybe it's not for you, but I think you should jump on a team and go out and play in the singles event in May, you may have a different feeling about the APA when you play some of the 7's in the national event. JB&lt;---Not in the APA

Rich R.
09-03-2003, 04:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> The leagues have certainly brought the game to a lot of players but they are very self serving from what I have seen. <hr /></blockquote>
Leagues are a business and all businesses are self serving. I don't understand why anyone would expect anything else.

Aboo
09-03-2003, 02:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> Another couple of questions for all you APA players.

How much of your trip to Vegas did your league operator pay?

What are your weekly dues?

What part of that do you get back for a win?

Do you have year-end or session-end tourneys with significant cash payouts? <hr /></blockquote>

1.) Our league pays for all travel and hotel expenses. This year it was like 5000.00 grand for the team going.

2.) Weekly dues = 5.00, if you play. We get no free practice time and pay all our own table time. (except for one team, which is captained by the co-owner of the pool-hall I play in... THEY get free practice time lol)

3.) We get nothing for winning, but a clap on the back from our team mates. Unless you win the trip to Vegas of course.

4.) Sort of. At year end, the pool hall where I play throws a thank you party. Free chips, salsa and buffalo wings, and a free keg. One keg, till it's gone :P
During that party, they have a singles tourny, the pay-out for the winner is like 100-150 bucks.

I've never been to Vegas, with an APA team or otherwise, but if I went it wouldn't really be for the cash, but for the bragging rights. If I want cash, I'll keep practicing and enter tourny's and play for cash around here I guess. At the moment though, any decent tourny is just a huge waste of quarters for me. Why would I enter a tourny, pay 40-50 bucks in quarters to get into the money and then get beat by an "sl4" that runs three racks on me and go home with 20 bucks for my trouble...

I love tournys, don't get me wrong. I've just decided to not waste my money till I'm on enough to beat that sand-bagging S.O.B. :P