PDA

View Full Version : Heating During Tip Trims, Problem?



Sid_Vicious
09-05-2003, 11:41 AM
I experience heat transfer when I spin a shaft using a tube style sandpaper shaper with a new tip especially while shortening it, but there is always heat. It worries me that the heat, which migrates onto the shaftwood where I am holding it, is degrading the ferrule-to-wood adhesives. Besides telling me "don't let the heat get bad", and giving me advice on pre-shortening procedures, tell me if you think it is a valid concern.

Rod
09-05-2003, 12:07 PM
Sid,

Nope, no concern here. It gets pretty warm but not hot enough to effect the glue. You'd have to burn the hell out of your fingers to even consider coming close enough. If it does get a little warm for you, use a soft cloth.

I'll tell ya when a little heat is a concern of a tip coming apart or a ferrule coming loose, a substandard adhesive must have been used.

As an end note, I have found just to take off a ferrule (other than cutting it off) most times you need a heat gun or I have used a gas burner on a stove. The ferrule needs to be quite hot to break the bond. Of course depending on the adhesive, temps will vary. Just don't be careless and burn the wood.

Rod

Popcorn
09-05-2003, 03:17 PM
Just as a note, rags and lathes don't mix. Be very careful around a spinning lathe with a rag, they can catch by nothing more then overlapping themselves. A lathe can be one of the safest tools in the shop to operate , but all the general safety rules need to be followed. Any time you are spinning a shaft you need to use caution. Many are not completely straight and inserts can be off center as well as shafts can flex. You all just be careful and pay attention to what you are doing. Take care.

Rod
09-05-2003, 05:29 PM
Very true, I didn't mean to send off the wrong signal. When Sid or I in this case is talking about spinning a shaft; it's with a tool on a drill. It's the tool Spiderman invented. The shaft would come out of the tool. Even so like you said using caution is best, good point.

hadenball
09-09-2003, 10:18 AM
Sid,
There is concern if you have an abs or pvc ferrule, you will burn them if they get too hot before you have to worry about the glue bond. I use a block of wood 3/8 thick x 2" x 5" with some adhesive backed sandpaper (220) which keeps you from getting a belly on the ferrule. I trim my tips with a razor knife then use 400 or 600 wet to blend it all in with . haden

RedHell
09-09-2003, 11:22 AM
About that tool. This is the drill attachement that ends with the rubber of a crutch isn't it ?

If so, how do you fix the drill ?

What held the other end of the shaft, you can't just let it spin held by one pin end, do you ?

Rod
09-09-2003, 11:39 AM
Red,

Yes that is the tool. I don't fix the drill end, it lays on a towel while spinning. Because the crutch tool is rubber it is self centering and absorbs most vibration. It's a variable speed that is set about 1/2 of the way for speed.

The tip end is hand held but can be steadied on a bench. I also use a hand held dremel with a sanding drum that cuts the tip to size and shape, likity - split.

This deal about heat is way over rated. If a tip or ferrule comes off or apart, chances are the glue was just very poor quality to begin with or poor workmanship. If it was that poor I'd either not use the glue again or not buy the tips or product.

Rod

RedHell
09-09-2003, 11:56 AM
Hmmm, interresting...

How would you steady it on a bench ?

Using this are you able to trim the diameter and burnish it ?

Rod
09-09-2003, 12:19 PM
Just by holding my hand steady against the bench. I hold the shaft with by thumb, index and middle finger, with the heel on the bench as a support. It can be held several ways for good support.

I can trim or burnish, no problem. You need relatively good eye hand cordination. If I didn't have that I wouldn't be a very good pool player. LOL I'm not the best at explaining but a short movie clip would easily answer any questions, which I don't have.

Rod

RedHell
09-09-2003, 12:39 PM
OK, thanks...

Now I need to research the spider-crutch device to make one... /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Qtec
09-09-2003, 01:00 PM
Use a hand file. Finnish it off with sandpaper.

Q

hadenball
09-09-2003, 02:49 PM
Rod,

If you go to playpool.com and go to the playpool store you'll see the pocket lathe. You need something like that to hold the tip end.

haden

bolo
09-09-2003, 03:04 PM
That thing can wreck your shaft if you are spinning it with any speed. It does not take much to groove a shaft

Sid_Vicious
09-09-2003, 03:07 PM
Rod...My concern stems from two occasions following separate trim/burnishes where I "seem" to intermittently hear a weak sound in the hit of that particular shaft when compared to the other paired shaft for the same cue. I wondered if the glue bond on the one ferrule union had crystallized or somehow become inferior due to the heat(which will actually blistered a finger being held 6-8" back from the tip while spinning in the crutch tool/drill motor.) An actual break down of the ferrule is not what I'm asking about, cuz that would be obvious. The heat at the glue bond are has to be rather extreme during migration 6-8" back.

To clarify a bit, it seemed to happen on a shaft from two different cues. It may have sounded like I only sampled the one shaft, sorry. I also have changed tips several times over time, and it "seems like" I get an intermittent stutter or buzz from the suspected overheated ferrule joints.

Any more thoughts???sid

hadenball
09-09-2003, 04:01 PM
Why would you use any speed for what he's talking about? How is it going to groove anything ? It's rubber and if you are careful there's no problem. Also you can lay part of the ferrule on it, either way it's all good , I have my metal lathe!!!!!!!! Just an Idea!!!!!!! LOL. Haden

Rod
09-09-2003, 04:14 PM
Em ok Sid,

So your saying enough heat is transfered from the ferrule, through the glue, down a wood shaft, hot enough to blister your finger? Not likely, you'd need to heat it with a blow torch to transfer that much heat. Wood is extremely low in thermal conductivity. Even if it was aluminum, which will carry heat at least a 500 times better, it would still have to be fairly hot.

What your feeling is heat transferred from friction of the shaft, not from the tip. I think you need to reevaluate what "seems" like you hear and where you think this heat is coming from. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Just my 2 bits. LOL

Rod

Rod
09-09-2003, 04:20 PM
Thanks hayden but I'll leave the pocket lathe in someones pocket. LOL I hold the tip end just fine, nothing additional is needed.

Rod

bolo
09-09-2003, 04:38 PM
They are talking about spinning it is an electric drill.

Sid_Vicious
09-09-2003, 04:52 PM
In all due respect, the bubble blister on my middle finger didn't lie. If I had not backed off of the drill and the application of the 80 grit from the tip while shortening the heighth, the thing would have gone through the roof with heat. Spiderman doesn't see heat either, but next time I get anyone around my setup at home, "I'm going to give an exhibition." It's real, what else can I say? Burnishing sends heat down as well...sid

Rod
09-09-2003, 05:46 PM
Careful there Sid, with all that heat, you'll have the place going up in smoke. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif JK, Sid I know it must seem real. I'd come but the last time I did an exibition, they threw me in jail. LOL

~~~ rod, oh, wrong exibition /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

hadenball
09-09-2003, 07:20 PM
Bolo,

I know what they're talking about with the electric drill. I've been doing this for 13 years on a wood lathe and the last two on a metal lathe and never screwed one up yet. I'm just curious what it is you know about it, meaning cue repair and cue building. The only thing I have seen you contribute is criticism and this isn't the only time you've done it to me . Jeez at least pay attention, I never said to use the drill with it , I said "you need something like that". LOL. Do you think holding a rag around the shaft while it's spinning is the safest thing to do? Go figure!!!

Haden

Candyman
09-09-2003, 08:16 PM
Popcorn gives very good advice! THIS MEANS NO LONG-SLEEVES OR LOOSE CLOTHING! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

bolo
09-09-2003, 08:24 PM
Be nice, I could put you in your place but I won't. Now back to your Chinese lathe and say hello to Rick for me.

hadenball
09-09-2003, 10:02 PM
yeah sounds like you can put me in my place with criticism and insults, oooooh big man. No knowledge though. haden

bolo
09-10-2003, 12:03 AM
Actually, I do know quite a bit about building cues. I was at Grady's one pocket tournament, I think in Columbia, South Carolina when the ACA was formed and was one of the original members. I am not a member any more because I don't care, for the association. I can not only build cues but the machines that build them. Here though, I like to talk about pool and not cues, there are enough guys here to answer any cue questions. I will say something if I think something is not correct though.

hadenball
09-10-2003, 05:11 AM
Bolo,

Well good you do that!!!!!! Good Excuse!!!!! Haden

SPetty
09-10-2003, 09:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> ... the heat(which will actually blistered a finger being held 6-8" back from the tip while spinning in the crutch tool/drill motor.)
...
Any more thoughts???<hr /></blockquote>Is it at all possible that the heat is not being transferred from the tip, but is being generated from the friction where your finger is? It doesn't take much to get a friction blister and it usually feels hot to the part being blistered. JAT

SpiderMan
09-10-2003, 09:25 AM
Sid,

I still consider it highly unlikely that heat felt 'way back on the shaft could have originated from the tip. When camping, don't you ever grab a short burning stick from the edge of the fire, maybe to light something else? Even with the end burning, it can be hand-held a few inches back.

I could burn the end off a shaft with a torch and it still wouldn't be too hot to hold 8 inches back.

I'm with Rod on this, I suspect the heat you felt was generated at the point where you felt it, by friction with your hand or whatever you were using to support the shaft. I accidentally melted a groove in a plastic ferrule once, being overzealous with polishing it, but the heat remained localized.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
09-10-2003, 09:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> OK, thanks...

Now I need to research the spider-crutch device to make one... /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Red,

Here's a link to a photo. The "front" of the tool is just a rubber tip from a crutch. They're available cheap in drugstores. Mate it up with any sort of chuckable shaft to drive it from a drill. In the picture, the "back" part (silver and black) is made from one of those cheap sanding-disc attachments for drills. I've also used a wooden disc with a bolt epoxied into it. You could also do it with an engine valve stem, I suppose.

It's important to get the chucking stem and the crutch-tip hole reasonably well aligned and concentric.

To use the tool, just chuck it up in your drill and work the joint end of your shaft past a couple of the rubber "ribs" inside the open end of the crutch tip. Alignment is not critical, it will self-stabilize once it is spinning. In fact, you can completely remove your support hand and the shaft will spin true sticking straight out (once it has stabilized).

SpiderMan

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/funkychateau/vwp?.dir=/SPetty+Predator+Talisman&amp;.dnm=Shaft+Tool+Oblique.j pg&amp;.view=t

Sid_Vicious
09-10-2003, 02:30 PM
Ok I see I need to tell a short story here:

I am at home with my drill motor on the carpet between my feet, the spinning crutch tool with shaft inserted, the PVC-made shaper in the other hand while the shaft spins freely inside the curled fingers of the other hand. All the while the untouched newly installed tip HAS NO SHAPE TOOL APPLIED TO IT, the curled fingers remain as cool as the ambient air, and the shaft does too. ONCE the shaping/trimming tool hits the spinning shaft, same rotations on the shaft as before which produced absolutely no detectable heat, there becomes warmth which accelerated into a rampant heat to the curled fingers around the shaft, all within 15-30 seconds of total time, depending on the force of the shaper and the grit of the sandpaper applied to the tip. Once the shaping tool is removed, the shaft gradually sinks the heat away, BUT the shaft from that held area is certainly hot, then real warm and finally cool in about the same amount of time it took to heat up. Hence the formation of a blister, a blister caused not by friction at the held region,,,only during the application of the trim tool while spinning fast in the motor/crutch tool assy.

Next time I get Spiderman's audience around my setup, I'm certainly going to let him "feel the heat". Ain't no deny'n it when you are the one holding the cue shaft...sid

RedHell
09-10-2003, 05:09 PM
Thanks Spider...

I had seen your crutch tool before, I just wanted to refresh my memory. I couldn't remember what you used to glue to the crutch.

I'm thinking of making some sort of steady rest with roller blade wheels. Have you experimeneted that ?

Fred Agnir
09-11-2003, 06:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr>
I'm thinking of making some sort of steady rest with roller blade wheels. Have you experimeneted that ?

<hr /></blockquote>I think that should work. In case nobody has seen it, you can steal a lot of idea from the fishing pole industry. Take a look at the cork wrap setup at http://www.mudhole.com/default.html (click Rod Building Equipment), and you'll see a steady rest setup that I have. Three wheels on rollerbearings. A setup made of rollerblade wheels could probably work.

You'll notice at the bottom of the page a motor and chuck setup. The chuck looks eerily like a cane tip, which is what I use instead of a crutch tip (because of availability).

Fred

Fred Agnir
09-11-2003, 06:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Ok I see I need to tell a short story here:

I am at home with my drill motor on the carpet between my feet, the spinning crutch tool with shaft inserted, the PVC-made shaper in the other hand while the shaft spins freely inside the curled fingers of the other hand. All the while the untouched newly installed tip HAS NO SHAPE TOOL APPLIED TO IT, the curled fingers remain as cool as the ambient air, and the shaft does too. ONCE the shaping/trimming tool hits the spinning shaft, same rotations on the shaft as before which produced absolutely no detectable heat, there becomes warmth which accelerated into a rampant heat to the curled fingers around the shaft, all within 15-30 seconds of total time, depending on the force of the shaper and the grit of the sandpaper applied to the tip. Once the shaping tool is removed, the shaft gradually sinks the heat away, BUT the shaft from that held area is certainly hot, then real warm and finally cool in about the same amount of time it took to heat up. Hence the formation of a blister, a blister caused not by friction at the held region,,,only during the application of the trim tool while spinning fast in the motor/crutch tool assy.

Next time I get Spiderman's audience around my setup, I'm certainly going to let him "feel the heat". Ain't no deny'n it when you are the one holding the cue shaft...sid <hr /></blockquote>I've personally never felt the type of heat you're describing.

I can only guess two things:

1) You inadvertently grip tighter once the shaper is applied

2) You're working on an older Viking, which inexplicably had a metal pin at the tip end.

Fred

SpiderMan
09-11-2003, 12:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
I can only guess two things:

1) You inadvertently grip tighter once the shaper is applied

<hr /></blockquote>

Ditto - because the shaping tool is worked in a side-to-side "sawing" motion across the top of the tip, the shaft is naturally forced sideways into the holding hand that got blistered. More pressure = more heat.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
09-11-2003, 12:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> Thanks Spider...

I had seen your crutch tool before, I just wanted to refresh my memory. I couldn't remember what you used to glue to the crutch.

I'm thinking of making some sort of steady rest with roller blade wheels. Have you experimeneted that ?

<hr /></blockquote>

Glue: I've had good results with both epoxy and contact cement (the stuff used to attach formica to countertops). Beware that the crutch tips are made of some type of soft rubber-like compound that doesn't glue extremely well. I face off the irregularities from the surface to be glued and then rough it up considerably.

I've thought about a steady rest also, but in practice I've not found it necessary - hands work fine after a little practice. If you do make something, I'd go for smaller wheels/tires than the rollerblades unless you only plan to do slow turning. If the wheels aren't sufficiently low-mass, I could imagine the shaft spin starting up faster than the wheels, resulting in "skid marks" around the shaft.

I've seen a couple of pupose-built "cue lathes" for tip repair that use rubber wheels as a rest, and they invariably have small (light) wheels.

SpiderMan

Rod
09-11-2003, 12:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
I can only guess two things:

1) You inadvertently grip tighter once the shaper is applied

<hr /></blockquote>

Ditto - because the shaping tool is worked in a side-to-side "sawing" motion across the top of the tip, the shaft is naturally forced sideways into the holding hand that got blistered. More pressure = more heat.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>


That's what I've said for the last 20 years or better. Pool players get to tight on the grip. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

RedHell
09-11-2003, 01:43 PM
The point about the mass of a rollerblade wheels is a good one. I tought of them because I saw a set the other day and realise how good the ball bearings were on those. Plus they aren't that expensive.

I wonder what type of lightweight wheels I could use ???

SpiderMan
09-11-2003, 01:54 PM
One that I saw in 'Vegas this year had rollers that appeared to be nothing more than a little rubber "tire" on the outside of a bearing. It could be that these are available commercially for some application and he has just adapted them. Maybe little paper rollers from a copy machine or printer? Ususually it's best to find something already available for a high-volume application and adapt it, that way it's cheap (like the crutch tip).

Anyway, if you discover a good source of something, let us all know!

SpiderMan

eg8r
09-11-2003, 02:25 PM
Sid,

I am sorry that I am no help at all, but I have another question pertaining to this quote... [ QUOTE ]
there becomes warmth which accelerated into a rampant heat to the curled fingers around the shaft, all within 15-30 seconds of total time, depending on the force of the shaper and the grit of the sandpaper applied to the tip. Once the shaping tool is removed, the shaft gradually sinks the heat away, BUT the shaft from that held area is certainly hot, then real warm and finally cool in about the same amount of time it took to heat up. <hr /></blockquote> Do you notice any effects to the wood with it heating and cooling this fast?

eg8r

ted harris
09-11-2003, 08:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
1) You inadvertently grip tighter once the shaper is applied
<hr /></blockquote>
Bingo! Gin! Blackjack! Checkmate! Touchdown! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Sid_Vicious
09-11-2003, 09:19 PM
Tell me this then, "How is it that the shaft, ferrule and tip remains beyond warm after the release of flesh from the shaft, yet only once there has been an actual blister on the hand? You don't make that much residual, lasting heat with the fingers of a human hand and not ALWAYS create blisters?" Well? HUH? Tell me a real world answer for that question friend! sid

Fred Agnir
09-12-2003, 08:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> One that I saw in 'Vegas this year had rollers that appeared to be nothing more than a little rubber "tire" on the outside of a bearing<hr /></blockquote>

What I have are small "garage door" wheels, about 1" diameter. They have v-groove like v-groove pulleys. In the groove, a standard Buna o-ring is installed for the friction.


The wheels spin on a shoulder bolt. That's all. No bearings, other than the the wheel itself. If it's not Delrin, it won't last. So far, it's lasted.

Fred