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View Full Version : Is a Miscue a Ball-in-Hand - Opinions Please ??



Chris in NC
09-13-2003, 04:02 PM
Occasionally a player in our weekly tourney calls me in for a ruling on a miscue, claiming that since his opponent miscued - even if he/she hit the lowest object ball first and drove something to a rail it should still be ruled a foul because the ferrule contacted the cue ball. According to the BCA rulebook, only the cue-tip is allowed to contact that cue-ball, otherwise it is a foul, and this point seems to be fairly clear. Many players claim the awful sound one hears on virtually every miscue is actually the ferrule/shaft making contact with the cueball as the tip slides off the ball.

In our tournaments I tell the players that we do not play miscues as automatic fouls, as I haven't seen them called that way in pro tournaments. I've seen pro players argue with the TD for the ball-in-hand in pro tourneys, but get denied.

If anyone can please set the record straight here on this, should it or should it not be a ball-in-hand if one makes the type of miscue that makes that awful sound but gets lucky enough to still fulfill the other requirements of a legal shot?? - Chris in NC

StLSteve
09-13-2003, 04:36 PM
It would seem that if all the other requirments for a legal shot happen, then no foul. Thats how I feel about it.

But, as you point out, it is a foul per the BCA rules, so if thats the book you play by, it's a foul. I guess it would have to be stated before the tourney started whether that particular item was a foul.

bolo
09-13-2003, 04:43 PM
It is not possible to determine what happened after the fact, so it can't be called as a foul regardless what the actual rule may be. There are no instant replays to watch. Making the call, could you really honestly say you or anybody knows what happened?

Ken
09-13-2003, 07:54 PM
I don't think miscues are ever called fouls on ordinary shots. They are fouls on massť shots, however. I think I have seen that called.

If a referree is watching and observes what he thinks is ferrule contact then a foul should be called but not after the fact by calling the TD over.

The fact is that refs just don't call those fouls. It's too subjective and they're afraid to get into an argument. I've seen Tipton fail to call a double hit on Chao and essentially hand him $50,000 at Mohegan Sun. The cue ball and object ball took off together on a close hit and Tipton just asked Chao if it was a double hit. Chao, who supposedly doesn't speak english, told Tipton that it certainly was not a double hit (it clearly was).
KenCT

cuechick
09-13-2003, 10:03 PM
I have never seen it called a foul and since there is no certainty that the ferral hit the cue ball, I can't see it. Many times, I have seen people miscue and still make there ball...

ras314
09-13-2003, 11:56 PM
I thought an intentional miscue was a foul. Now that ought to be a hard one to call!

Tom_In_Cincy
09-14-2003, 12:34 AM
Chris,

NO. It's not considered a foul. It's too difficult to call it a foul, even if you were watching the hit. It could have just as easily been the side of the tip, which is still a legal hit, that makes the sound that some players might think is the ferrule (and is the still the tip).

But, I do believe that it is a double hit, and should be a foul, although I have never seen it called by any ref or TD.

And, hitting the cue ball so bad, is embarassing enough, calling it a foul would be adding "insult to injury" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Leviathan
09-14-2003, 05:43 AM
A miscue that results in a double hit or a hit with the ferrule or shaft is a foul, but it's a foul that a ref or TD is seldom able to call with certainty. I believe that a player who thinks he's committed a foul of this kind should call it against himself. It's the honest thing to do.

D.M.

griffith_d
09-14-2003, 07:52 AM
If the question of intentional or accident would even come into play, I think is absurd. If intentional, there are many other ways to hook the other player than a miscue. For my thought, accidentally probably would be the only way a miscue would happen.

For someone to call a foul on a intentional miscue is hard up and probably losing.

Griff

Fred Agnir
09-14-2003, 08:01 AM
This is where the double-hit rule to me is a serious contradiction. A double-hit is a foul. Most miscues are double-hits. But not all miscues are double-hits, so you could never call it. So, it's fair to say that many double-hits go by the board without being called a foul. Which is fine by me.

As I've said before, if I had a vote, I would do away with the continuos stroke double-hit foul. If someone can control it, more power to them. I think it's a contradiction that can be rectified by simply allowing it.

Fred

Fred Agnir
09-14-2003, 08:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote griffith_d:</font><hr> If the question of intentional or accident would even come into play, I think is absurd. If intentional, there are many other ways to hook the other player than a miscue. For my thought, accidentally probably would be the only way a miscue would happen.
<hr /></blockquote> There are at least two shots that use the intentional miscue: The miscue scoop jump shot and the pinch-it-in-the corner "trick shot." Both are made illegal by the "intentional miscue" rule.

Fred

griffith_d
09-14-2003, 08:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote griffith_d:</font><hr> If the question of intentional or accident would even come into play, I think is absurd. If intentional, there are many other ways to hook the other player than a miscue. For my thought, accidentally probably would be the only way a miscue would happen.
<hr /></blockquote> There are at least two shots that use the intentional miscue: The miscue scoop jump shot and the pinch-it-in-the corner "trick shot." Both are made illegal by the "intentional miscue" rule.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Correct,...I am referring to just normal playing and someone is crying about a miscue.

Griff

Qtec
09-14-2003, 09:07 AM
Its always a foul if you miscue and the Qb jumps over a ball.

Even if you intentionally miscue to jump a ball , its a foul.

Q

Ken
09-14-2003, 12:46 PM
That's not what the rule says: "Such jumping action may occasionally occur accidentally, and such 'jumps' are not to be considered fouls". If done "intentionally" it is a foul, but you're entitled to your opinion.
KenCT

Leviathan
09-14-2003, 01:23 PM
I believe that Qtec is right. The key word is "miscue." See Rule 3.27, General Rules of Pocket Billiards (BCA), which says in part:

"Any miscue when executing a jump shot is a foul."

DM

Ken
09-14-2003, 03:49 PM
We are not talking about jump shots just ordinary miscues. An accidental jump is not a jump shot. There has to be intent to jump over a ball in order for the jump shot rule to apply.

The only time I jump over a ball is when it's the object ball that I'm trying to put into a pocket. That's not a foul unless some other rule is violated such as double hit or ferrule hit. Just going over a ball is not a foul.
KenCT

Leviathan
09-14-2003, 04:20 PM
Ken: You're arguing against a position that Qtec didn't take. His post refers explicitly and exclusively to shots that involve a miscue.--DM

Fred Agnir
09-14-2003, 05:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> I believe that Qtec is right. The key word is "miscue." See Rule 3.27, General Rules of Pocket Billiards (BCA), which says in part:

"Any miscue when executing a jump shot is a foul."

DM <hr /></blockquote>This is completely different than saying "if the cueball jumps on a miscue..."

The rule is that if you're attempting to jump the cue ball, and you miscue, it's a foul.

Ken
09-14-2003, 08:39 PM
DM
Didm't I say we were talking about miscues? I give up!
KenCT

Leviathan
09-14-2003, 09:05 PM
Fred and Ken:

I thought that every miscue was a foul under BCA Rule 3.3, and that the shots Qtec described were fouls simply because they were miscues. I was wrong. I find that BCA's definition of "miscue" doesn't support that argument. BCA defines a miscue as "a stroke which results in the cue tip contact with cue ball being faulty. Usually the cue tip slides off the cue ball without full transmission of the desired stroke. The stroke usually results in a sharp sound and discoloration of the tip and/or the cue ball at the point of contact (BCA 1996)." Thus, a miscued stroke isn't necessarily a foul under Rule 3.3, and the question of intent is relevant, just as you said.

DM

magicman
09-16-2003, 12:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris in NC:</font><hr> Occasionally a player in our weekly tourney calls me in for a ruling on a miscue, claiming that since his opponent miscued - even if he/she hit the lowest object ball first and drove something to a rail it should still be ruled a foul because the ferrule contacted the cue ball. According to the BCA rulebook, only the cue-tip is allowed to contact that cue-ball, otherwise it is a foul, and this point seems to be fairly clear. Many players claim the awful sound one hears on virtually every miscue is actually the ferrule/shaft making contact with the cueball as the tip slides off the ball.

In our tournaments I tell the players that we do not play miscues as automatic fouls, as I haven't seen them called that way in pro tournaments. I've seen pro players argue with the TD for the ball-in-hand in pro tourneys, but get denied.

If anyone can please set the record straight here on this, should it or should it not be a ball-in-hand if one makes the type of miscue that makes that awful sound but gets lucky enough to still fulfill the other requirements of a legal shot?? - Chris in NC <hr /></blockquote>

Learn how to chalk the tip correctly, mis cues never happen again.

9 Ball Road Pro
09-16-2003, 12:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote griffith_d:</font><hr> If the question of intentional or accident would even come into play, I think is absurd. If intentional, there are many other ways to hook the other player than a miscue. For my thought, accidentally probably would be the only way a miscue would happen.

For someone to call a foul on a intentional miscue is hard up and probably losing.

Griff <hr /></blockquote>

I hate this stuff worse than anything, play pool, quit looking for loopholes when your losing, a mis cue is a mis cue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Fred Agnir
09-16-2003, 07:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote magicman:</font><hr> Learn how to chalk the tip correctly, mis cues never happen again. <hr /></blockquote>I 100% disagree with this. In my very opinionated opinion, most miscues have absolutely nothing to do with chalk or lack thereof. Blaming the chalk is a nice red herring.

The number one cause of miscues is a technical error in execution.

Fred

Wally_in_Cincy
09-16-2003, 08:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
I 100% disagree with this. In my very opinionated opinion, most miscues have absolutely nothing to do with chalk or lack thereof. Blaming the chalk is a nice red herring.

The number one cause of miscues is a technical error in execution.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

And if my match last night had been taped we would have irrefutable proof.

Wally~~chalks before every shot, miscues on every other shot