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griffith_d
09-14-2003, 08:56 PM
Since having my table,..I am really getting into learning the diamond system. Where I play, very few ever try two or three rail shots.

How long was it before the rail system shooting came into your game?

Do you have a favorite shot that you can make all of the time?

Griff

ras314
09-14-2003, 10:11 PM
You bet I have a faviourite shot. Its when the money ball is left in the jaws and the cb near an adjacent rail. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Problem I have with the diamond systems is getting used to the paticular table. First (and only) system I learned enough to use in a serious game was in the 60's, usually called "opposite 3's. Scott Lee expanded considerably on it for me this year.

START(
%Ar3U0%BB7\2%CB6\0%DM7O9%EB7\0%FB8\2%GB4\1%Hr4X4%I B8\1%JB8\1
%KB8\1%LB7\4%MB7\1%NB6[9%OB5\1%Pr2F6%UP3D1%VC0R0%Wq5W5%XP9C4
%_V6[1%`c0Q7%aq3F9%bC8R8%cL5V7%dU4[3
)END

Idea is the cb will return to the back rail at the opposite or mirror image point. Was very handy in the old days when ball in hand mean in the kitchen and you had to catch a rail in front of the head string.

BeanDiesel
09-14-2003, 11:18 PM
Do you guys know any online resources from which i can learn about this diamond system?

ras314
09-14-2003, 11:44 PM
I don't know of any but you might look for sites that specialize in billiards. As in three cushion billiards.

Be warned that some of these systems might require a pocket calculator to figure out. And probably would help to paste the approiate numbers on the table. Even then you have to be careful to use the english your paticular table requires.

I suspect very few top pool players use any diamond system.

ras314
09-15-2003, 01:00 AM
Found one system in pdf format
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/TP_7-2.pdf

griffith_d
09-15-2003, 05:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BeanDiesel:</font><hr> Do you guys know any online resources from which i can learn about this diamond system? <hr /></blockquote>

Byrnes' books have the rail system. It is best to get a book, because just when you get it, you get in a tournament and forget and then get confused and start counting and subtracting. Soon, it will become second nature.

Griff

griffith_d
09-15-2003, 05:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> I suspect very few top pool players use any diamond system. <hr /></blockquote>

I am not sure of the figure that do or don't, but ESPN sures shows a lot 2 and 3 rail from the overhead camera shots,...if I could only be so good. I could have my own camera.

Griff

Qtec
09-15-2003, 06:35 AM
there are no diamonds on a snooker table. How do you think they do it?[ sn players]

My tip. Its easier to see the angle the qb takes off the rail if you use running E.

Qtec

Fred Agnir
09-15-2003, 07:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> there are no diamonds on a snooker table. How do you think they do it?[ sn players]
<hr /></blockquote> They don't. Well, it's not a normal part of the game, as it is in billiards or a pool. On a scale of one to ten, as far as a need for diamonds or multi-rail kicks:

3C Billiards: 10
9-ball Pool: 7
Snooker: 1

That about right?

Fred &lt;~~~ had to shoot a three-rail shot in snooker yesterday

ceebee
09-15-2003, 07:46 AM
...learning the Diamond System was a great learning experience. When you can see the numbers add up to a great kick shot &amp; you can do it over &amp; over, you will thank the man for having come up with it.

The great Billiard players might not be great without it, ever notice somedays you see the angle &amp; some days you don't?? . Learning the Diamond System WILL be another feather in your cap.

The path of the Cue ball, after hitting the object ball can easily be calculated. Then you plug in your speed value &amp; you can plan your Cue ball's next location.

The diamond system, the 2+ System &amp; Dr. Cue's 7th Ball are just a few geometrical systems for banking &amp; kicking. They are fun to learn &amp; great to use.

Qtec
09-15-2003, 08:16 AM
No. That is nowhere near right.

The easiest, by far is in pool. SMALL table, BIG balls.

English Billiards on a Sn table with Sn balls is the most difficult.

Sn players are good at 3c shots because a major amount of shote played ARE 3c shots. ie;

Safety shots.
Shots to nothing.
Potting and playing shape off 3c,s.
Geting out of snookers by using 3 or more cushions.


THE standard safety is as follows.

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%Gg6O5%HM7N8%I g7J4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%Ng6T6%OJ5M0%Pj3R2%Uq9I3%Vj6C2%W M7R8%Xh6R5
%YE3V7%ZJ9R6%[I0[3%\D3W7%]i2C9%^I9[7
)END


Or wrong side of the blue shot.

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%Gg6O5%HG4P1%I g7J4%JZ7N7
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%Ng6T6%OK4J6%PY1V3%Uj1Z1%Vr9L2%W r5J8%Xi0C7
%YV7Q5%Zf5Y7%]Z6P3%^Y5U6%_h1D1%`d2J2%a[9O3
)END


The list is endless.


Q


web page (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

Fred Agnir
09-15-2003, 08:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> No. That is nowhere near right.

The easiest, by far is in pool. SMALL table, BIG balls.

THE standard safety is as follows.

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%Gg6O5%HM7N8%I g7J4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%Ng6T6%OJ5M0%Pj3R2%Uq9I3%Vj6C2%W M7R8%Xh6R5
%YE3V7%ZJ9R6%[I0[3%\D3W7%]i2C9%^I9[7
)END
<hr /></blockquote>Oh, please. These aren't diamond system shots. Face it. It isn't a major part of snooker.

Here's one that comes up in 8-ball and 9-ball a lot. Note that there is a specific point to hit that you need, not just some area three cushions away.

START(
%Hm9Z6%JZ1Z2%PR6Z7%Uk6Z2%VL6D6%Wq8Z8%Xo0Z7%YD3N0%Z Q8Y6%]K1E4
%^C8M2%eC1a2
)END

I use one of the various "double the corner" diamond systems. It's a "4" using one of Tom Rossman's systems.

Fred

HalSmith
09-15-2003, 09:27 AM
Dean, your not going to believe this but there is a 28 min. video with Donald Duck that's called Donald Duck does Math. And he shows the diamond system. It all breaks down to numbers. Go to the library they may have it.---Smitty

NH_Steve
09-15-2003, 09:47 AM
Actually it's called 'Donald in Mathmagic Land' and the section on billiards is entertaining but pretty short and very fast paced IIRC -- not the ideal way to learn a diamond system.

howarti
09-15-2003, 10:16 AM
I can't believe no one included this link. Each volume describes 20-30 different diamond systems.
A Billiard Atlas on Systems and Techniques (http://www.billiardsatlas.com)

griffith_d
09-15-2003, 10:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ceebee:</font><hr> The diamond system, the 2+ System &amp; Dr. Cue's 7th Ball are just a few geometrical systems for banking &amp; kicking. They are fun to learn &amp; great to use. <hr /></blockquote>

The 3 rail kicks are the most fun to watch,...they are starting to kid me where I play, calling me "3-rail", because a lot of them are starting to fall and the BIH's are getting less for the other person.

Griff

jjinfla
09-15-2003, 12:11 PM
Here is a site that gives a pretty short and easy description of the three rail system.
http://www.karmafarm.com/index.html

Fred did you use the diamond system for that shot or the two rail kick system?

Jake

BeanDiesel
09-15-2003, 01:15 PM
Thank you. But i'm afraid this link doesn't work.

Fred Agnir
09-15-2003, 06:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Here is a site that gives a pretty short and easy description of the three rail system.
http:www.kearmafarm.com/pool.html#threerail (http://http:www.kearmafarm.com/pool.html#threerail)

Fred did you use the diamond system for that shot or the two rail kick system?

Jake <hr /></blockquote> Ummmm... a two-rail diamond system.

Maybe I don't understand your question. If you're asking me if I use the Corner 5 on that shot, I dodn't. But I do use a diamond system for that kick. There are literally dozens, but the Corner 5 is usually what people are talking about when they say "The Diamond System."

Fred &lt;~~~ couldn't get that website up

Edit: the website is

http://www.karmafarm.com/pool.html#threerail

jjinfla
09-15-2003, 06:41 PM
Thanks for fixing the link Fred. Stupid of me not trying it. Sorry about the extra "e"

Did you ever see the video that Dr Q put out about using the diamond system?

I swear that he was drinking (he wasn't) when he made the video. It just seemed so outrageous, and complicated. Too many variables.

Jake

magicman
09-15-2003, 11:20 PM
I just read where a pro just posted on az that Hoppe, Cuelemans and Sang Lee, the 3 greatest billiard players of all time did not use the diamond system. What does that tell us? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Popcorn
09-16-2003, 02:09 AM
It tells you they don't know what they are talking about. I have seen Cuelemans play a few times and have played Sang Lee many times. Although they both play mostly from feel. If you watch their eyes they are using the diamonds all the time.

Terry
09-16-2003, 05:13 AM
Hi, In Willie Hoppe's book " Billiards as it should be played " he says quote " My explanation of the "Diamond System" is not a closet study, but was written, so to speak, on the billiard table, with the cue as well as the pen. Theory, in every instance, has been put to the proof of not only experimental demonstration, but also world tournament achievement, and observation has led to explaination."

This would lead one to beleive he used the diamond system. Terry

griffith_d
09-16-2003, 05:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote magicman:</font><hr> I just read where a pro just posted on az that Hoppe, Cuelemans and Sang Lee, the 3 greatest billiard players of all time did not use the diamond system. What does that tell us? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

If a player can always position themselves in front of the OB,..who needs a diamond system,...I know that happens all of the time.

Griff

Fred Agnir
09-16-2003, 07:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr>
Did you ever see the video that Dr Q put out about using the diamond system?

I swear that he was drinking (he wasn't) when he made the video. It just seemed so outrageous, and complicated. Too many variables.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>Never saw it. I've watched Tom do a few performances over the years, and have caught a couple of two-rail kick systems he uses (or says he uses).

Fred

Ken
09-16-2003, 08:55 AM
It has been reported that Hoppe did not write the book and that he did not use the system. I would be very careful what conclusions I would draw from quoting the book.

It's possible that Larry may be correct about Hoppe but I don't know about Cuelemans and Sang Lee.
KenCT

NBC-BOB
09-16-2003, 09:08 AM
When I bought my first table and started reading books on pool, I also wanted to learn the diamond system, so I used self adhesive markers and had it all labeled.After awhile I removed them all. Now I think I'm a better then average banker,but I think it's due to my ability and not my knowledge of the diamond system.That being said I think pool is a game of knowledge, and anything that helps increase your pool knowledge base is a good thing.The next step is a book on trick shot's!At least that's the course that I went.I think anything that helps increase your knowledge of the game is a good thing, including learning how trick shot's work.

09-16-2003, 09:36 AM

Terry
09-16-2003, 10:13 AM
Hi Ken, I'm not saying that Hoppe used the Diamond System ( how would I know if he used the system ) i'm just saying what is written in the book with his name all over it. Even if it was an add on like whitewolf said he still signed his name to the book. Maybe he thought it would sell the book,LOL.Terry

Wally_in_Cincy
09-16-2003, 10:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr>
Hoppe did not write this diamond system - some one else did for the book as an 'add-on'. I heard that Hoppe did not use any diamond systems. <hr /></blockquote>

According to McGoorty, you are correct. He said he saw Hoppe one day with the book trying to use the diamond system therein. Supposedly Hoppe threw the book down in disgust claiming it was useless. or something like that... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

jjinfla
09-16-2003, 10:55 AM
McGoorty - page 163 - "Dan McGoorty went out to Navy Pier in Chicago and saw Hoppe with the book open shooting shots from the diagrams...trying out the system. He looked up and said, "You know, Dan, it works. But you need a perfect stroke."

According to McGoorty, as reported by Byrne, not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with developing it. That was done by Copulus, Layton and Clarence Jackson.

Guys like Hoppe knew the table so well, all the angles, all the returns, they didn't need to use any system."

John in NH
09-16-2003, 03:15 PM
Hi Bean,

My best experience with a diamond system was in a video that I purchased from Jimmy Reid I believe it was called "No Time For Negative" at www.freepoollessons.com (http://www.freepoollessons.com), it doesn't cost anything to browse his website, good luck.

Regards,

John

griffith_d
09-16-2003, 03:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote John in NH:</font><hr> Hi Bean,

My best experience with a diamond system was in a video that I purchased from Jimmy Reid I believe it was called "No Time For Negative" at www.freepoollessons.com (http://www.freepoollessons.com), it doesn't cost anything to browse his website, good luck.

Regards,

John <hr /></blockquote>

I have that tape,...Jimmy calls his system, "over the 2nd diamond",...works great!!

Griff

HALHOULE
09-17-2003, 11:26 PM
MY ADVICE TO ANY RECREATIONAL PLAYER IS TO LEARN ONE THING AT A TIME AND TO LEARN THAT ONE THING UNTIL YOU MASTER IT. CUE CONTROL, CUE BALL SPEED CONTROL, FOLLOW, DRAW, STOP, POSITION AIM, POCKET, . ONE CUSHION-BANK BANK, CAROM, COMBNATION, KICK. DOUBLE-BANK, CROSS-BANK, DOUBLE-CROSS BANK,JUMP BALL, MASSE, ENGLISH.

bigbro6060
09-18-2003, 01:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> there are no diamonds on a snooker table. How do you think they do it?[ sn players]
<hr /></blockquote> They don't. Well, it's not a normal part of the game, as it is in billiards or a pool. On a scale of one to ten, as far as a need for diamonds or multi-rail kicks:

3C Billiards: 10
9-ball Pool: 7
Snooker: 1

That about right?

Fred &lt;~~~ had to shoot a three-rail shot in snooker yesterday <hr /></blockquote>

WRONG! Top Snooker players know the angles very well and can kick out of snookers sometimes 12-14 ft quite successfully
. I would put only just behind 3C and 9ballers

Qtec
09-18-2003, 05:48 AM
For the any DS to work, it depends on hitting the ball with the same pace and with the same E or totally without E. The DS or any DS is a guide, not a science because everybody hits the ball differently.

As for the NEED for a DS,I dont think there is one in pool. It should be your own judgement that tells you where and how you should play the shot, not a mathematical calculation.

"Ed, how did you miss that 3c kick?"
"I added the 1.5 instead of subtracting!"

HaHa /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


Qtec

nhp
09-18-2003, 08:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> there are no diamonds on a snooker table. How do you think they do it?[ sn players]
<hr /></blockquote> They don't. Well, it's not a normal part of the game, as it is in billiards or a pool. On a scale of one to ten, as far as a need for diamonds or multi-rail kicks:

3C Billiards: 10
9-ball Pool: 7
Snooker: 1

That about right?

Fred &lt;~~~ had to shoot a three-rail shot in snooker yesterday <hr /></blockquote>


Fred I play snooker all the time, and one of the major parts of the game is "snookering" your opponent. Since jump shots are illegal, learning how to use the rails for kicking is very important. I don't know the diamond system on regular tables, I just go by feel, and the same thing on a snooker table. I would have to say for multi-rail kicks its probably a 4 or 5 for snooker on a scale of 1-10. When I play liability and am losing it's usually because the guy before me keeps hooking me. That -4 points (unless u hit a higher numbered ball illegally than it's face value of the ball) really adds up.

bolo
09-18-2003, 08:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> MY ADVICE TO ANY RECREATIONAL PLAYER IS TO LEARN ONE THING AT A TIME AND TO LEARN THAT ONE THING UNTIL YOU MASTER IT. CUE CONTROL, CUE BALL SPEED CONTROL, FOLLOW, DRAW, STOP, POSITION AIM, POCKET, . ONE CUSHION-BANK BANK, CAROM, COMBNATION, KICK. DOUBLE-BANK, CROSS-BANK, DOUBLE-CROSS BANK,JUMP BALL, MASSE, ENGLISH. <hr /></blockquote>

How do you learn cueball control with out follow or draw? Or position and pocketing without cueball control? You learn it all as you play the game as a package moving on to different levels of play. It does not make sense to just concentrate on one thing till you have mastered it, what even that means, before you begin learning something else.

RUNaRAK
09-18-2003, 09:00 AM
I found it useful until I became comfortable while learning. Eventually it comes second nature and you just know where the ball is going to go. IT is a great too for someone starting out thought.

Fred Agnir
09-18-2003, 12:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr>
Fred I play snooker all the time, and one of the major parts of the game is "snookering" your opponent. <hr /></blockquote>

I definitely disagree. The major part of the game of snooker is potting balls. The "snooker" part of it is happenstance.

I don't know how else to answer this. I have hours of snooker matches on tape. I watched probably 30 hours of coverage of the World's while I was in Europe a couple of years ago. Kicking was never anthing close to a "major part of the game." If it was, you'd have seen it in. But it wasn't there. Do we have different definitions of "major"?

So, you can say it happens all the time in snooker, but I've never seen it to a point of being called "a major part of the game." I can say in 9-ball, multi-rail kicks happen all the time, and you'll see it happen several times a set in any set across the U.S., be it professional or amateur. TV or local bar tourney. That's because it's a "major part of the game."

And, I thought we were talking about "snooker" not golf or liability. I don't think any of you who talk about the kicks in snooker have any appreciation whatsoever at the depth of kicking needed in billiards and pool. It's not even in the same ballpark.

Fred

Fred Agnir
09-18-2003, 12:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr>
WRONG! Top Snooker players know the angles very well and can kick out of snookers sometimes 12-14 ft quite <hr /></blockquote>I might believe this if it actually happened. I've watched enough of the World's to know that it just doesn't come up enough. And when it does happen, the kicks were either missed or easy.


I'm sure it happens, but I've never seen anyone kick a ball in the hole. One rail, two rail, three rail. No, never seen it. Yet you'll see it a couple times a set in 9-ball. It's part of the game of 9-ball. It's rare to see anyone kick to play a safety in snooker. It happens, but it's not a major part of the game like it is in 9-ball. There's no crime in that. Just like 11' pots aren't a major part of American pool. There's no crime in that either.

Fred &lt;~~~ think people are too busy defending against phantoms

Qtec
09-18-2003, 06:12 PM
Sorry Fred, you dont know what you are talking about.

At the top level, you dont miss. You cant expect to get a free shot. You have to force an error. How does one do that? Play a good safety, or a snooker.

Playing the cue ball over 25 feet , via an Oball and playing perfect strength, is an art in itself.To compare that to a 3c shot, kicking without having first to hit an Oball on a pool table with diamonds [ which on a Sn table is usually 12 ft away ]is ridiculous.

There is no comparison.

In the last two tournaments that I have seen only one time was a ball potted from a kick out, over one cushion. None were potted ovr 3c and there were very few players that choose to kick instead of jump.


Snooker players judge kicking by logic and experience. Not by numbers. Thats why they can quickly adapt to a pool table.

My friend [ 6 times NL snooker champion] has been playing Niels Fiejen.He is only just losing. they play first to 10 , best of 5. The last 3 times he lost 3-2.

on this form , he ould beat anybody, and he has only begun to play seriously this year.

Once he learns the game..........


Q

Fred Agnir
09-18-2003, 08:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
Snooker players judge kicking by logic and experience. Not by numbers. Thats why they can quickly adapt to a pool table.
<hr /></blockquote> You have a great opportunity to learn something on this board, but your arrogance doesn't allow it. I've have many e-mails with Karen Corr on this very subject. And here you are trying to convince me, or anyone who actually knows anything about the game that kicking is some major part of snooker, yet we've all seen exactly opposite. Or do you not give any pool player any credit for actually knowing something about snooker?

Karen has said many times that part of her rise is due to the time spent with the Fuscos on kicking. Particular multi-rail kicking. Why? Because in her words, "it's just not part of snooker like it is in 9-ball." You calling her a liar? You saying she doesn't know what she's talking about, even though anybody with half a clue can plainly see that she's correct?

Got anything else to try to convince me? Consider that snooker doesn't have diamonds, wouldn't it be a little better if you just read from those of us who actually *use* the diamonds? Wouldn't you want to know how we might supplement our feel and logic, with the use of diamonds. Isn't that what this thread is about? God forbid you might learn something. Nah. Not you.

When a thread turns to using the rake, long pots with stun, speed control with no cushions, then I'll be respectfully all ears to anything you've got to say on the subject. No matter how you treat me with your arrogance, I'll still respect your knowledge in those subject as they are more appropriately more highly tuned for snooker. But for you to give some kind of weigh in on diamond systems, when your game has none is outlandish and just plain moronic. You are pathetic.


Fred &lt;~~~ looking for the twit filters

Qtec
09-19-2003, 01:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
Snooker players judge kicking by logic and experience. Not by numbers. Thats why they can quickly adapt to a pool table.
<hr /></blockquote> You have a great opportunity to learn something on this board, but your arrogance doesn't allow it. <font color="blue"> Arrogant! Moi! </font color> I've have many e-mails with Karen Corr on this very subject. And here you are trying to convince me, <font color="blue"> Am I? </font color> or anyone who actually knows anything about the game that kicking is some major part of snooker, yet we've all seen exactly opposite.
<font color="blue"> This isnt about kicking , its about DSs. Who is we? </font color> Or do you not give any pool player any credit for actually knowing something about snooker?

<font color="blue"> Do you not give any snooker player any credit for actually knowing something about pool? </font color>



Karen has said many times that part of her rise is due to the time spent with the Fuscos on kicking. Particular multi-rail kicking. Why? Because in her words, "it's just not part of snooker like it is in 9-ball." You calling her a liar? You saying she doesn't know what she's talking about, even though anybody with half a clue can plainly see that she's correct? <font color="blue"> So anybody who disagrees with Karen doesnt have half a clue? The post wasnt about the importance of using a DS or the degree of dificulty in the different games. </font color>

Got anything else to try to convince me? <font color="blue"> Of what am I trying to convince you ? </font color> Consider that snooker doesn't have diamonds, wouldn't it be a little better if you just read from those of us who actually *use* the diamonds? Wouldn't you want to know how we might supplement our feel and logic, with the use of diamonds. Isn't that what this thread is about? God forbid you might learn something. Nah. Not you.
<font color="blue">Did I not say that it was a guide but that it wasnt exact? </font color>

When a thread turns to using the rake, long pots with stun, speed control with no cushions, <font color="blue"> I guess with cushions would be out of the question? </font color> then I'll be respectfully all ears to anything you've got to say on the subject. No matter how you treat me with your arrogance, I'll still respect your knowledge in those subject as they are more appropriately more highly tuned for snooker. But for you to give some kind of weigh in on diamond systems, when your game has none is outlandish and just plain moronic. You are pathetic.


Fred &lt;~~~ looking for the twit filters <hr /></blockquote>





I remember you lecturing me on 'Netiquette" Fred. I also remember your standard lectur about how this forum is for sharing knowledge and not to impose ones ideas, ala FL.

So far you have called me "arrogant, moronic, pathetic and a twit". I have never insulted you or anybody else on the CCB in such a fashion.

Is this what you mean by 'netiquette'?

When Karen Corr was being toilet trained, I was playing snooker on the next table to Jimmy White. No disrespect to Karen, but she only gives HER opinion. Whether its right or wrong, its her opinion. Everybody's got one.
All I was saying was that I do not use a DS. Many dont. I didnt say not to use one either.
The fact tho that there are more than 30 Diamond Systems [ at least ?]would suggest that not one is exact. If there was one, everybody would use it.



Fred, youre obvious dislike for me shines through every time you reply to one of my posts. Calling names is a bit childish dont you think?


Q

griffith_d
09-19-2003, 05:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Calling names is a bit childish dont you think?


Q <hr /></blockquote>

I have found when adults call names,....I have found it is easiest to just ask them, "what grade are you in?". This is something they can understand.

Griff

nhp
09-19-2003, 10:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr>
Fred I play snooker all the time, and one of the major parts of the game is "snookering" your opponent. <hr /></blockquote>

I definitely disagree. The major part of the game of snooker is potting balls. The "snooker" part of it is happenstance.

I don't know how else to answer this. I have hours of snooker matches on tape. I watched probably 30 hours of coverage of the World's while I was in Europe a couple of years ago. Kicking was never anthing close to a "major part of the game." If it was, you'd have seen it in. But it wasn't there. Do we have different definitions of "major"?

So, you can say it happens all the time in snooker, but I've never seen it to a point of being called "a major part of the game." I can say in 9-ball, multi-rail kicks happen all the time, and you'll see it happen several times a set in any set across the U.S., be it professional or amateur. TV or local bar tourney. That's because it's a "major part of the game."

And, I thought we were talking about "snooker" not golf or liability. I don't think any of you who talk about the kicks in snooker have any appreciation whatsoever at the depth of kicking needed in billiards and pool. It's not even in the same ballpark.

Fred
<hr /></blockquote>

Lol I thought liability and snooker are the same thing. Liability is all I play on the snooker table, I thought that is the same thing as snooker, but just with 3+ players. I stand corrected.

HALHOULE
09-19-2003, 01:17 PM
I NEVER HAD THE NEED FOR ANY DIAMOND SYSTEM.

HALHOULE
09-19-2003, 01:32 PM
THEY DON'T.

Fred Agnir
09-23-2003, 08:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Lol I thought liability and snooker are the same thing. Liability is all I play on the snooker table, I thought that is the same thing as snooker, but just with 3+ players. I stand corrected. <hr /></blockquote>I don't know if you're joking or not.

Fred

Fred Agnir
09-23-2003, 09:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
<font color="blue"> Do you not give any snooker player any credit for actually knowing something about pool? </font color><hr /></blockquote> Absolutely I do. You know anyone that fits that description?

[ QUOTE ]
Particular multi-rail kicking. Why? Because in her words, "it's just not part of snooker like it is in 9-ball." You calling her a liar? You saying she doesn't know what she's talking about, even though anybody with half a clue can plainly see that she's correct? <font color="blue"> So anybody who disagrees with Karen doesnt have half a clue? </font color><hr /></blockquote>Sure. Actually, no. You do have half a clue. Karen's opinion should fill in the other half. Did it?



[ QUOTE ]
The post wasnt about the importance of using a DS or the degree of dificulty in the different games. </font color><hr /></blockquote> I could swear you turned it into a discussion of the importance or lack thereof of the Diamond System by pointing out that there are no diamonds on a snooker table. You saying that wasn't you?


[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">Did I not say that it was a guide but that it wasnt exact? </font color><hr /></blockquote>
Of course you did. And I agree. But that's not what I was rebutting, or did I not make myself more clear?

[ QUOTE ]
When a thread turns to using the rake, long pots with stun, speed control with no cushions, <font color="blue"> I guess with cushions would be out of the question? </font color><hr /></blockquote>

If I were to say what the strength of the game of snooker has (i.e. you must be strong in this area, or else you won't be any good at the game) is speed control with no cushions and speed control off one cushion. My opinion by observation is that the multi-rail pattern is not normally choice #1 when both are available. But the one rail and no rail patterns are by far, the major paths of good snooker play.

[ QUOTE ]
I remember you lecturing me on 'Netiquette" Fred. I also remember your standard lectur about how this forum is for sharing knowledge and not to impose ones ideas, ala FL.<hr /></blockquote>
That's right. Sharing ideas. That's what I do. And right or wrong, I've always made an effort to squash posts that hinted at attempting to diminish that idea. There was an inference in your post that suggested a condescending viewpoint on the merits and the overall discussion of the various Diamond Systems. So, a squashing we will go.


[ QUOTE ]
So far you have called me "arrogant, moronic, pathetic and a twit". I have never insulted you or anybody else on the CCB in such a fashion. <hr /></blockquote> You're right. You haven't insulted "in that fashion." You have your very own fashion of insulting.


[ QUOTE ]
The fact tho that there are more than 30 Diamond Systems [ at least ?]would suggest that not one is exact. If there was one, everybody would use it.<hr /></blockquote>

This is going to be the only serious reply that I'll make to you on this particular post. There *are* over 30 diamond systems that address different shots. Am I to guess that you believe all of them address the same type of shot? Take this however you want, but I do really suggest that you read up more on the Diamond Systems so that at the very least, you've got a leg to stand on when you're debating their merits or lack thereof.

I absolutely loved watching the pros this weekend every time they were hooked and needed to go multi-railing. They'd be pointing, and angling, and counting. They all have and use different systems. I'd love to be in their head so I knew what they were looking at and what system they were using.

Many of the various Diamond Systems do in fact address the same type of shot, but are simply different ways of getting to the same point. As an example, my friend Mr. Hal Houle has several aiming systems (not to be confused with Diamond Systems of which to my knowledge, he doesn't teach), most if not all geared to hit the same points, but just approaching them from a different way.



[ QUOTE ]
Fred, youre obvious dislike for me shines through every time you reply to one of my posts.<hr /></blockquote>
If you think I have some personal vendetta, I don't. I'm sorry to disappoint you or anyone who might think I'm following their posts. I only respond to the black and white print. That's all. Words on the screen. I wreck on everybody's posts.

[ QUOTE ]
Calling names is a bit childish dont you think?<hr /></blockquote> I thought you might understand it better. Plus, it made me feel good. And it's all about feeling good. If calling you arrogant, moronic and pathetic is 3rd grade name-calling, then so be it. But, I think it's more like 10th or 11th grade name-calling. Maybe even Freshman in college/university.


Regards,

Fred Agnir

<hr /></blockquote>

SPetty
09-23-2003, 10:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>I wreck on everybody's posts.<hr /></blockquote>Might as well do me next, Fred. I've been having one of those fire hydrant months. You couldn't make it any worse.

SPetty~~~you know, sometimes you're the dog, sometimes you're the fire hydrant... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Eric.
09-23-2003, 11:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> SPetty~~~you know, sometimes you're the dog, sometimes you're the fire hydrant... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>


The version I heard is "Sometimes you're the bug and sometimes you're the windshield."

I like your's better /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


Eric &gt;needs to be the dog, more.

griffith_d
09-23-2003, 11:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>I wreck on everybody's posts.<hr /></blockquote>Might as well do me next, Fred. I've been having one of those fire hydrant months. You couldn't make it any worse.

SPetty~~~you know, sometimes you're the dog, sometimes you're the fire hydrant... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>

With all of Fred's posts,....a person has got to wonder,....if Fred was found dead on the side of the road hit by a car,...would there be any skid marks.

Griff

Fred Agnir
09-23-2003, 11:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote griffith_d:</font><hr> I have found when adults call names,....I have found it is easiest to just ask them, "what grade are you in?". This is something they can understand.<hr /></blockquote>

And how do you find it easiest to tell someone that their posts are coming through as arrogant, pompous, condescending, and, dare I say, moronic?

Fred &lt;~~~ it's not like I called anybody and a$$hole. Or did I?

Qtec
09-23-2003, 07:36 PM
I posted this about 3 months ago.


[ QUOTE ]
Here is a simple practice that I do [ also a game ] that will in no time make you a great kicker.

Place a ball over pocket [A].Place the QB anywhere below the 2nd diamond. The object is to play the QB over 3 cushions and pot the 9.If you pot the 9 , replace and continue from the position the QB is now in [B].

START(
%ID0[0%PH7U8%QH1S0%Uf2C8%Vr9M9%WN9Z6%XN8B7%YV0[4%ZI3V1%[s0N5
%\V9[2%]E9Y6%^e5C5%eA6a6
)END


Playing the shot from [B] would be something like this.

START(
%ID0[0%PD7X6%QH1S0%RC7V7%Um8D1%Vs5H1%WN9Z6%XN8B7%YJ3[4%ZE5Y1
%[s2I1%\J7[7%]E9Y6%^l6C8%eA5a6
)END


You find that after a while you will recognise the 3c shotfrom different positions on the table. eg

START(
%Dr2Y7%Ep0Z4%Fe2G8%He1J8%Ir7Z9%Pd1I6%QH1S0%WN9Z6%X N8B7%YK6[4
%ZC9V3%[p7X1%\U1C4%]L5[4%^c3J1%eA5a6%_T6D1%`N8I7%aC7U7
)END

After learning this basic shot , you can vary the angles just by using more or less english.

Just by trial and error and using your eyes, you will see this shot when playing in matches and you will allways be close.

Remember, when the QB comes off the 3rd rail , it has the most spin.

Qtec

Post <hr /></blockquote>


Sounds a bit like this guy,s system or Hal Houle,s.

http://www.karmafarm.com/index.html

My logic is this.
If you learn 1 cushion kicks, its simple to work out where the Qb will hit the second rail.
If you know where the Qb hits the second rail, its simple to work out where the Qb will hit the 3rd rail. etc, etc.

If you want to count diamonds, fine. Whatever helps you play better.I,m not saying there is anything wrong with that.


Qtec

nhp
09-24-2003, 05:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Lol I thought liability and snooker are the same thing. Liability is all I play on the snooker table, I thought that is the same thing as snooker, but just with 3+ players. I stand corrected. <hr /></blockquote>I don't know if you're joking or not.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Actually I'm not joking...I live in Southern California, mostly play 9-ball. The poolroom I play at just got a snooker table a few months ago, so I've been playing ever since, which means it's relatively new to me.

Fred Agnir
09-24-2003, 07:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
Sounds a bit like this guy,s system or Hal Houle,s.<hr /></blockquote>

As I said, I don't believe Hal Houle uses a diamond system.

[ QUOTE ]

If you learn 1 cushion kicks, its simple to work out where the Qb will hit the second rail.
If you know where the Qb hits the second rail, its simple to work out where the Qb will hit the 3rd rail. etc, etc.

If you want to count diamonds, fine. Whatever helps you play better.I,m not saying there is anything wrong with that.


Qtec
<hr /></blockquote>Maybe I say this over and over, but you don't read it or I don't explain it well enough. I'm certainly open to the latter.

You show three 3-rail kicks. I've said many times that the diamond systems out there don't only cover 3-rail kicks. The 3-rail Corner 5 system is the very basic one that people will get introduced to first. But that's not the only diamond system. Aren't you even the least bit curious what other diamond systems are out there?

Fred

Fred Agnir
09-24-2003, 07:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> SPetty~~~you know, sometimes you're the dog, sometimes you're the fire hydrant... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>


The version I heard is "Sometimes you're the bug and sometimes you're the windshield."

<hr /></blockquote>
Some days you get the bear;some days the bear gets you.

Sometimes you're the hammer; sometimes you're the nail.

Sometimes you're the screwdriver; sometimes you get screwed.

Sometimes you're the schlemiel; sometimes you're the schlemazel.

Sometimes you're the cuestick; sometimes you're the cueball.

Sometimes you're the boss; sometimes you get to be the guy who judges Purina's New &amp; Improved Taste.

Sometimes you're a Balabushka. Sometimes you're a Cuetec.

And whatever you are sometimes, hopefully, you're never the guy who tested the rectal thermometers.


Fred &lt;~~~ Sometimes this helps; sometimes it activates the self-distruct sequence...

Eric.
09-24-2003, 07:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>

And whatever you are sometimes, hopefully, you're never the guy who tested the rectal thermometers.


<hr /></blockquote>

Testing them aint too bad, being the one to mistaken it for an ORAL thermometer is bad.


Eric &gt;hasn't mistaken one yet

Fran Crimi
09-24-2003, 08:18 AM
When I first learned that the diamonds were there for more than decorative purposes, I used the term "The Diamond System" to describe the mathematical use of the diamonds like yourself and others here. But as you get more and more into it, you realize that the term doesn't exist.

There is no "The" diamond sytem. There are many diamond systems and there is "A" diamond system, or there is "the" particular diamond system you are using or referring to.

I think diamond systems are extremely helpful and can definitely give a player an advantage, but in competition, only in these circumstances:

1.) The player has to be comfortable in adding and subtracting numbers in their head quickly and efficiently and should only use systems that they fully understand. Some systems can get quite complicated and require quite a bit of adding and subtracting. If you make an addition error you're dead.

2.) The player has to know how the table is playing and how to make adjustments. Players who use diamond systems will test the table with two or three particular systems before a match to see how the table is playing. If the table is running long or short by a certain amount, the player has to factor that amount into every system he uses on that table (or worse, that particular rail or side of the table). That can get quite complicated with some of the more complicated multi-rail systems.

3.) The player has to know how to execute the shot properly. Knowing how and when to shoot "through" the diamond is very important because that changes the point at which the cb hits the rail. There also the issues of speed and spin that needs to be thoroughly understood relative to that particular system.

I use about 6 simple systems regularly and stay away from some of the more complicated ones for tournament play. I'm not great in adding and subtracting numbers in my head, and I know I'd probably make a mistake at some point so I try to keep to the more simpler ones for myself. I know a pro level 3C player from Columbia who says he uses any one of 64 systems (with table adjustments) at any given time. God bless him...I could never do that.

Fran

Qtec
09-24-2003, 10:06 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Aren't you even the least bit curious what other diamond systems are out there? <hr /></blockquote>

Fred, the more I look , the more systems I find.Some are quite simple, some complex. With E, without E, same numbers and different numbers. Most give me a headache!

A few are very similar, basically variations on the same principal.All have their merits and the same weaknesses IMO. One of the big problems is that the player has to identify the exact position of the Qb . Sometimes when the Qb is between diamonds the its difficult to be exact and the math can get complicated.

I am always open to new ideas although I might take a little convincing. It will certainly take me a while before I relied on a diamond system over my own judgement. But thats me.

Qtec

Fred Agnir
09-24-2003, 10:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Sometimes when the Qb is between diamonds the its difficult to be exact and the math can get complicated.<hr /></blockquote> There are some diamond systems for certain kicks that don't use math at all. Just numbers or no numbers.

[ QUOTE ]
I am always open to new ideas although I might take a little convincing. It will certainly take me a while before I relied on a diamond system over my own judgement. But thats me. <hr /></blockquote> I think this is the whole ball of wax. It's up to each person to use or not use any of the various diamond systems to whatever degree they want. I personally think that the knowledge of some of the diamond systems is advantageous. And by advantageous, I'm talking comparing someone with that knowledge compared to that same person without it. Obviously, it makes no sense to compare a complete novice with diamond system knowledge to a veteran who may have no diamond system knowledge.

Fred

griffith_d
09-24-2003, 10:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
There is no "The" diamond sytem. There are many diamond systems and there is "A" diamond system, or there is "the" particular diamond system you are using or referring to.


Fran <hr /></blockquote>

This is true, I just used the term "the diamond system" to make a understandable post,...but there are, many diamond systems used my many. I guess I am just learning the "basic", for lack of a better word, that is most found in books. I have seen a few more and the Jimmy Reid, "over the 2nd diamond system",(which works very well),... and so on.

Learning this 2, 3 rail shots has elevated my ability to get out of being hooked and enabled me to win more games.

It is just another tool to chisel my game into a greater level.

Griff

magicman
09-24-2003, 04:10 PM
Willie Hoppe did not write this because he did not use the diamond system. It was written by Byron Schoeman who was the director of public relations of the billiard association of america in 1941 and who was the ghost writer for this book. You may write either Michael Shamos or Bob Byrne of this magazine and they will tell you this is true. Raymound did not start out using the diamond systems. He uses it today to line up the shot, to bracket it, then shoots it by feel. Sang lee sees the shot, he does not need it, but also uses it to simply bracket. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

9 Ball Road Pro
09-24-2003, 04:48 PM
The run of the mill amateur pool player can benefit by learning a very basic diamond system, about 20% of what the 3-cushion player must have. If the pool player spends two full days learning all of this, he will forget 90% of it in a week because he will not be using it. It will be a waste of your time and money. Have somebody only teach you what part applies to your game and no more unless you are planning to turn pro. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

griffith_d
09-24-2003, 07:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Road Pro:</font><hr> The run of the mill amateur pool player can benefit by learning a very basic diamond system, about 20% of what the 3-cushion player must have. If the pool player spends two full days learning all of this, he will forget 90% of it in a week because he will not be using it. It will be a waste of your time and money. Have somebody only teach you what part applies to your game and no more unless you are planning to turn pro. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif <hr /></blockquote>

It is not that hard to learn,...get a book,...learn it, use it. If something is truely learned, it will not be forgotten.

Griff

jjinfla
09-25-2003, 05:19 AM
Then of course there is the proposition or bar bet. Place a ball on head spot, CB in kitchen, 3 tries to make the ball going 3 rails. On 2nd and 3rd try play CB &amp; OB where they stop.

Jake