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Fred Agnir
09-25-2003, 03:18 PM
Kato has reminded me that I owe some sort of review on the Limb Saver. http://www.limbsaver.com/limbsaver/svlproducts/billiards/billiards.aspx

I'll give a little background on why I bought this thing, since I don't normally buy anything pool related without having a good reason. Or something like that.


Anyway, when I figured out what I wanted and didn't want in a cue, I gravitated toward lower vibration and lower frequency cues. I didn't want to feel much in my hands. Many players are in my camp. Others are virtually exactly opposite and are looking for more vibration feedback. Anyhow, I've been playing with Schuler cues because of this. Schuler Cues' joint design designed amoung other things to increase the intimate contact between the two faces of the joints, and provide an interference fit all to reduce vibration through the joint.

The Limb Saver is supposed to dampen vibration. So, I'm intrigued. Does it work? Without a doubt there is a slight sound difference with and without the Limb Saver. Indications that the frequency is getting dampened. There's also a difference in feel. I thought the Schuler gave a mute hit before. With the Limb Saver, it sounds... dead. I think this product would give a more pronounced difference to higher vibration sticks.


Of these things they market:

Consistent English
Controlled spin
Dampens the vibration of your cue stick
Enhanced energy on your break
Provides a solid feel
Improvement of your over-all game

I can see the solid feel and the reduced vibration happening. The others are just fluff, IMO. You'd be hard pressed to convince anyone that it gives more controlled spin or makes your game better. Fortunately, that's not why I bought it.

Now, here's an interesting tidbit. When attempting to install the Limb Saver, I found out how Schuler bumpers are designed. Does any other cuemaker put this much effort into the bumper design:

http://home.comcast.net/~ohagnir1/wsb/media/250875/site1003.JPG

To explain what's going on, the bumper assembly is "mounted" in a blind hole. The assembly consists of a sandwich of a nut, a combination of washers and o-rings, and then the bumper. When it's all screwed together, the o-rings are compressed and squash out to increase their diameter. It's this increasing of the diameter that locks itself by friction in the blind hole. You may wonder why this o-ring setup is used instead of just fastening it to the weight bolt or into the wood like other cues? I believe Schuler was using the o-ring setup as a vibration dampener at the bumper end. The same thing that the Limb Saver is trying to do. That Ray Schuler was something else.

Fred

Popcorn
09-25-2003, 03:51 PM
The Schuler bumper is designed that way so you can add and take away weight. Yours has a bunch of plastic spacers but you can get little brass cylinders that he has in different sizes to add weight. You remove the spacers and add the weights as needed. You can just go to a hardware store for that matter and buy washers. I am not crazy about loading up the butt cap, (butt end) with weight as a way of weighting the cue as he does. I talked with him about it once and he was his usual rude self, saying players don't know the difference anyway.

SPetty
09-25-2003, 03:59 PM
Hi Fred,

If I'm reading this right, you tried this dampener on a cue that already had very low vibration (possibly due to its built-in squishy washer butt cap) and even then noticed a difference.

Have you tried it on another cue that has more "normal" vibration qualities to see if it dampened the vibration significantly? Or have you just done it with this cue?

SPetty~~~Oh, yeah, I forgot Fred probably only has one cue... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

stickman
09-25-2003, 11:35 PM
Thanks for the review Fred. I was curious about these things. I know the Limb Saver archery products and the Sims Vibration Laboratories recoil pads work great. I still need to get one of their recoil pads for my 7MM mag. A friend put one on his, and I tried it. It sold me. Now, if shooting my cue caused my hands to hurt as much as my rifle hurts my shoulder, I'd for sure have to have one. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jimmy B
09-26-2003, 02:51 AM
PT said it best "there's a sucker born every..." I can't stop thinking that you were the sucker in this case, now please tell me again how much you shoot like Buddy's wife???
JIM

PS please don't tell me how PT Barnum didn't really say this.

Paul_Mon
09-26-2003, 04:29 AM
Interesting stuff Fred. The Schuler bumper looks and acts like a freeze plug used in the older car engines. I'm definitely one from the other camp though. One of the drawbacks of using 314 shafts is the lack of feedback or vibration. BTW, got the Fancher book and brought it to Mass. on our vacation. Liked Rockport, Essex, Gloucester alot more than the Fancher book.

Paul Mon

Fred Agnir
09-26-2003, 06:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> PT said it best "there's a sucker born every..." I can't stop thinking that you were the sucker in this case,<hr /></blockquote>

Ssshhhh! Don't tell anyone that I'm the major stock holder in this company.


[ QUOTE ]
now please tell me again how much you shoot like Buddy's wife???<hr /></blockquote>

LOL! I'll take the 7 out from her.

Fred

Fred Agnir
09-26-2003, 06:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> The Schuler bumper is designed that way so you can add and take away weight. Yours has a bunch of plastic spacers but you can get little brass cylinders that he has in different sizes to add weight. <hr /></blockquote> How much weight are we talking about? Considering there's already what looks to be a weight bolt.

I doubt (to add weight) was the only reason he did this, as there would be much easier ways to accomplish it. The floating o-ring design is consistent with vibration dampening or vibration isolation in other applications. It has the ability to move without popping out in normal conditions. So I have to believe he had that idea in mind.

Fred

jjinfla
09-26-2003, 06:57 AM
They were giving some away in Vegas during the last APA tournament and a guy here has one on his cue. He seems to like it. But buy it for $30? One good thing about them if the pool hall is on the 2nd floor it deadens the sound for the people on the 1st floor when you tap your cueon the floor.

And Buddy hall, Eddie Taylor and Grady Mathews all like them, so they must be worth it.

Jake

Fred Agnir
09-26-2003, 07:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>
Have you tried it on another cue that has more "normal" vibration qualities to see if it dampened the vibration significantly? Or have you just done it with this cue?
<hr /></blockquote>Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I have another cue that it fits on. There are over 15 models of the Limb Saver. That covers most of the standard bumper configurations out there.

The one I have screws in with a 10-24 x 1 bolt.

Fred

Rich R.
09-26-2003, 07:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr>And Buddy hall, Eddie Taylor and Grady Mathews all like them, so they must be worth it. <hr /></blockquote>
Call me crazy, but I find it hard to trust an opinion from some one who is paid, to give that opinion. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I would put much more faith in Fred's review.

Rod
09-26-2003, 09:23 AM
Fred,

You might be right about him having an idea to reduce vibration. One thing that sticks out in my mind is the added weight. With the limb saver didn't it add something like 3/4 OZ of weight? Granted you took some out when you removed the stock unit but it still had to add weight. I'm sure 3/4 OZ is heavier than almost any stock unit.

For these guys to claim they like it or use it, the cue would have to be built, figuring in that extra 3/4 oz. If I had even 1/4 OZ added to the butt of my cue it would be a noticable difference. Using that thing would probably add closer to 1/2 OZ. Way to much weight for me and any pro that claims to like it is either blowing smoke or the cue is weighted with the bumper in mind. That's something their not saying up front. Any pro player or good players can't add that kind of weight or disturb the balance and claim to like it. Grady said one was going to be on his new cue, my guess that will be added to the equation before its built.

Oh yes, I know all that other stuff is fluff. How is it people get away with lies just to sell a product? How come you bought one Fred? LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod

Fred Agnir
09-26-2003, 09:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Fred,

You might be right about him having an idea to reduce vibration. One thing that sticks out in my mind is the added weight. <hr /></blockquote>

1/4 oz difference, is what they said. For mine, I think the difference might be less. There's a washer that's glued to the Schuler bumper that gets taken off. I should just weigh both and find out.


[ QUOTE ]
Oh yes, I know all that other stuff is fluff. How is it people get away with lies just to sell a product? How come you bought one Fred? LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod <hr /></blockquote>Well, I was looking for lower vibration, which is what I'm always looking for in a cue. It's a hell of a lot cheaper to try this out for $30, then it is to buy a cue.

Fred &lt;~~~ sucker

Wally_in_Cincy
09-26-2003, 10:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>

....How come you bought one Fred? LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

I get the feeling that Fred likes billiard-related geegaws. I'm waiting for the review on this:

http://www.thespideronline.com/concepts/spidercon1.jpg

Popcorn
09-26-2003, 10:11 AM
You can load that thing up with as many washers as it will hold for weight. The o-rings act to hold it in. It may in fact effect the vibration of the cue but I doubt that had anything to do with it's original design. A common press in rubber bumper filling the hole like many cue makers use would serve the purpose better and simpler. Ever take out one of those bumpers and hit with the cue? It may feel like it is cracked without the bumper, so there is something to it, the bumper does serve a second purpose on almost every cue, even if not part of the original idea. You will find Rambo style designed cues very often hit differently due to the lack of a bumper. Szamboti made my wife a Rambo style cue and she hated the hit and sound, so we sent it back to have a bumper added. He did it and told me on the phone he was not going to make anymore without a bumper. The cues had a ring that people complained about and blamed on him. Once he changed the cue it was fine. I don't think it really effected the hit but the sound gave you the impression there was something wrong, so it was probably in her mind as far as the hit. Anything out of the ordinary can effect your play though, even if it is in you mind, it is real to you.

Barbara
09-26-2003, 10:14 AM
Fred,

I'm missing something here.

How does it assemble on the cue and why did you take the butt of your cue apart?

Barbara

Rod
09-26-2003, 10:24 AM
What the hell is that thing? I can't make out what is happening in the picture. Star Wars lazer guided doo-dad /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

09-26-2003, 10:52 AM

Fred Agnir
09-26-2003, 11:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> What the hell is that thing? I can't make out what is happening in the picture. Star Wars lazer guided doo-dad /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Spider Laser Thingy Thread (http://www.google.com/groups?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;threadm=5447edcf.0210011129.322e2e31%40posting.g oogle.com&amp;rnum=1&amp;prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dinsubject:now%2Binsubject:I%27ve%2Bin subject:really%2Binsubject:seen%2Binsubject:everyt hing%2Bauthor:fred%2Bauthor:agnir%26hl%3Den%26lr%3 D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26scoring%3Dr%26selm%3D5447edcf.0210011129.322e2 e31%2540posting.google.com%26rnum%3D1)

Wally_in_Cincy
09-26-2003, 11:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr>
....my Sceptre Cues have a shaft that is made of compressed wood...<hr /></blockquote>

particle board? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Popcorn
09-26-2003, 11:12 AM
Quote
"Wouldn't this peace of junk you bought put more weight on the back of the stick?"

On what do you make this judgment ("Piece of junk")? And what is wrong with Fred buying one, even if for nothing more then curiosity?

Fran Crimi
09-26-2003, 11:27 AM
I've hit balls with dozens of Schuler cues and not one of them ever felt butt-heavy to me. Not one. And, in fact, I've been in the shop and we experimented with adding and taking off washers, and still the effect was so minimal as to weight distribution that it was insignificant, and I'm the type of player who senses every little nuance in a cue.

On the other hand, I've hit with other brands of cues that felt butt-heavy right out of the shop.

How else are you supposed to add weight to a cue that's already been completed and the player says they want that particular cue but they want it 1/2 oz heavier?

Also, in all the years I knew Ray, he was never rude to me and I've seen him interact with many players. He was direct and didn't pull any punches. Some of them considered that rude. I don't. I consider it honest. In many ways, he was a terrible salesman because of that. He told the facts as he saw them. I only wish there were more cuemakers out there like that who focused more on the quality of their craftsmanship rather than trying to shmooze the customer with useless rhetoric.

Fran

Popcorn
09-26-2003, 12:24 PM
I deleted the post out of respect, but it in no way changes the facts.

Rod
09-26-2003, 01:14 PM
Hum, I see it received a warm welcome. Who could keep a straight face and try to sell that thing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

~~ rod, missing something

Fran Crimi
09-26-2003, 02:20 PM
Well, it's tough to respond to something like this. I just read your post to Cathy Schuler and she said it's impossible for her to figure out what you're referring to without specific information. What room are you talking about? Who are you? What time frame were the cues purchased?

Without knowing who you are, there's no way to objectively look at your interaction with Ray. Maybe you're not such a nice guy yourself.

Give me specifics and I'll get you answers. Otherwise, you're bad mouthing someone in a cowardly way.

Fran

Fred Agnir
09-26-2003, 02:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Fred,

I'm missing something here.

How does it assemble on the cue and why did you take the butt of your cue apart?

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

I think I explained it above. I didn't take the butt of my cue apart. I removed the bumper. What you see is the entire bumper assembly in a Schuler Cue. It consists of the bumper with a glued on washer, some plastic washers, an o-ring, more washers, another o-ring, and a round flange nut. A 10-24 bolt passes through the holes of the bumper/washer/o-rings and screws into the flange nut.

The whole assembly is stuffed into the hole. When you turn the bolt, it draws the nut (the silver washer-looking thingy on the left of the assembly) which squeezes the washers and o-rings. The o-rings expand inside the hole due to the squeezing. The o-rings' friction on the inside of the hole is what holds the bumper assembly in there.

Fred

Popcorn
09-26-2003, 02:45 PM
She has to know what I am talking about, so many cues have been returned with noises in the butt. If they will just say, Yes there was a problem but we have taken care of it that would do it. Any billiard player out there that has had experience with the Schuler cues knows what I am talking about. The time frame would be from as far back as I can remember, to as recently as this year.

Barbara
09-26-2003, 03:08 PM
Oh, so you screw it in at the joint!

That's the part I was missing.

Thank you.

Barbara

Fran Crimi
09-26-2003, 06:18 PM
I see. So now it goes as far back as you can remember and all billiard players who know Schuler cues know about it. You basically said yourself, if only Ray had told you what you wanted to hear when you wanted to hear it you wouldn't be bad-mouthing him now.

Well, he's deceased, Popcorn. He can't tell you what you want to hear and you'll have to decide how much more bad-mouthing you feel like doing.

Cathy was willing to help find out what you were referring to if you would only provide some specifics, but you refuse, yet you expect her to remember, because based on your version, cues were being sent back in droves. Well, she doesn't remember the onslaught of returns the way you described it, and she's the nicest and most honest person I know. And she was in that shop every day of her life except on Sundays, and when she traveled with Ray to tournaments.

Fran

Popcorn
09-26-2003, 08:19 PM
All I can say is she is a very nice lady, I have met her on numerous occasions but, Schulers developing rattles and buzzes are as common in the billiard community, as getting kissed out of a shot. Like I said, the cues come back perfect, that is the strange part. How far back do you want me to go. I got one in 1983 and it had to go back after a few months. This year I know of two just in the pool room where I go that developed the famous Schuler noise and went back. ( this is only one pool room in the country). Have her talk to their repair person, the one the cues go to in the shop and ask how many cues he has fixed noises in. Beyond that I don't know what else to say, I don't think she is intentionally not telling the truth. We will just leave it at that till she has a chance to look into it. No need to report back, but you will find what I am saying is accurate.

Fran Crimi
09-27-2003, 11:23 AM
Tell you what, Popcorn, bring somebody on here who's not a coward and have them identify themselves and we'll look into it. The only thing we know about you are the stories you posted of how you conned people in the past.

I don't know if you presently travel around the country but I do. I've spoken to scores of 3C and pool players who use the cue and they LOVE it. Now maybe your group in the particular room you play in had a problem with a particular batch, but your generalized comments are hurtful to a great cue company.

As for your distateful comments about a deceased person, well, having just lost my mother, if someone ever said anything about her like that to me, there would be an all out war.

This isn't over. You started it, and I will finish it. Not now, but I guarantee you, I will finish it.

I'm done for now.

Popcorn
09-28-2003, 10:40 AM
I don't want to drag this out any further since you have resorted to name calling. I did not start anything, I gave an opinion of a weighting system in a cue and said Ray was rude which he was, so what. People make comments on here all the time about certain shafts, they like and dislike or this cue sucks and that cue is great. I went out to the shop by the way and tested weighting a cue at the very end and distributing the weight over 7 inches, (I used one ounce for the test). The difference was a movement in the balance point of about 3/4 of an inch. Does that make any difference, maybe it does and maybe it doesn't, that is up to the player. That was all I was saying in the first place. Beyond that, I won't post to you any further on this, you are a little too irrational for my taste, so you get the last word..

CarolNYC
09-29-2003, 04:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]
the sound gave you the impression there was something wrong, so it was probably in her mind as far as the hit. Anything out of the ordinary can effect your play though, even if it is in you mind, it is real to you. <hr /></blockquote>
I absolutely agree:):):):)
If my fingernail is chipped, it would bother me! ha ha ha
Carol~always has a nail file!:):):) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif