PDA

View Full Version : Whats the story guys and gals?



Qtec
09-29-2003, 08:48 AM
There seems to be some disagreement on the web about our man,s performance at the Open.[ Well done K.M }.

What I am talking about is the question of sharking.

A lot of you guys were there in person. How did you see it?

Personally, If somebody wants to talk on THEIR shot, thats their buisness. As long as I get to play my shot , my way.


I have read that the winner was taking 3 minutes per shot, at least in the begining of the final match, if not all through the tournament. This to me is sharking because their is no need for it. There is a difference between being careful and obvious slow play.


If pool is to be a spectator sport , the game must flow.


IMO


Comments?

Qtec

9 Ball Girl
09-29-2003, 08:57 AM
KM, from what I can remember, only spoke during his shots. He was quiet whil Parica shot and while JJ shot.

The final match on Sunday between JP and JJ was ok except JJ would wipe his cue down with a towel after almost every shot throughout the match. I think, IMO, JP might've gotten a little cold just sitting there not because of the towel wiping but because JJ had control of the table for quite a few racks. JMO

Rich R.
09-29-2003, 09:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> KM, from what I can remember, only spoke during his shots. He was quiet while Parica shot and while JJ shot.<hr /></blockquote>
Keith was more quiet than usual in his final two matches. I think he may have gotten a little nervous. I have never seen him so tight, when playing.
IIRC, Keith was always quiet, when his opponent was at the table.
Keith still had a wonderful tournament.

Although Parica beat Keith, he played much better in the middle of the week, than he did in the final two matches. He just didn't seem to be playing well on the TV table.

I think Jeremy is trying to take over the slowest player crown. As Wendy said, he wiped his cue with a towel after almost every shot and he also powdered his hand.
If any one knows Jeremy personally, please tell us, if his hands really sweat that much. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Cueless Joey
09-29-2003, 10:39 AM
We'll see on tv or tape I hope.
There's gotta be a rule mandated on taking too much time to shoot. It's agonizing to watch these pros play sometimes.
I was once watching Archer and Reed play. Archer was beating Reed. Reed takes a timeout and disappears for a good 15 minutes. Where was he? He was chatting with some other people while Archer was sitting on his chair.

Chris in NC
09-29-2003, 12:16 PM
I would basically agree with the other posters that were present for Keith's matches - he did remain quiet while his opponent was at the table. However, the second his opponent missed (usually hanging a ball up in a pocket), he immediately sprung to the table usually blurting out something in regards to the unexpected missed shot for the crowd to hear. Now whether that's considered sharking or not I guess may be questionable to some. However, if that's not a blatant lack of courtesy and respect for your opponent, then I guess don't know what is! - Chris in NC

Tom_In_Cincy
09-29-2003, 01:48 PM
What the "Pros" do at a finals match at the US Open is quite different than what you or I would do. We can only guess or imagine what is going thru their head.

Jose Parica has won almost every event possible except the US Open, do you think he might have been thinking about that?

Jeremy was approaching the "match" with the most determined, focused and concerted effort I have ever seen him deliver.

Who are we to criticize these pros on their approaches to being the winner of the 28th US Open?

You can make all the inferences, comments and conjectures you want, but they (Jeremy and Jose) were the ones performing for the title of one of this sport's most prestigeous events.

JJ and JP have earned the respect of PRO pool players, they don't need to use anything but what they can do at the table to gain an advantage over anyone.

"Being Sharked" is an excuse for a loser to use when they lose.

Players that use 'sharking' moves are desparate to win. They don't trust their talents, or don't have any talent to trust. JJ and JP have talent and are champions. They don't need to shark anyone. All they have to do is play.

Please give JJ and JP and even KM the respect they deserve as being the top pros they are.

smoothstroke
09-29-2003, 08:18 PM
well said tom, JJ has no reason or need to shark anyone.
This boy has "GAME", and yes his hands do sweat a lot..

wolfdancer
09-29-2003, 10:18 PM
You can either like or dislike Keith (put me on the like list)...but he's always entertaining. He played here for a few months when I was running tournaments....and everybody enjoyed the "action"

cueball1950
09-29-2003, 10:28 PM
I live in Ny, just so you don't think i live in texas and am sticking up for him. I first met jeremy a few years ago at the Open and if my memory serves me right when i shook his hand then when we were introduced by tony robles his hands were clammy then. At this years open when i said hi (his next match was not for about 3 or 4 hours) we shook hands in the tournament room (which everyone will tell you is kept cold) his hands were clammy then also. Maybe he just sweats to much. So i can imagine how his body was reacting under the lights. Just my own observation and opinion..........................................m ike

Qtec
09-30-2003, 01:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> What the "Pros" do at a finals match at the US Open is quite different than what you or I would do. We can only guess or imagine what is going thru their head. <hr /></blockquote>


&lt; There is nothing mystical or supernatural about how a PRO plays or thinks. They do the same things as you or I [should] do on a table. The difference is , they do it better.
There is nothing Holy about being a PRO player. They are just people, with their good and bad points. Just like you and me.

When you play a PRO, you shouldnt be shaking in your boots, you must see it as an opportunity to beat him, not to be a spectator and accept defeat before the match has started.

The Champ is only the Champ till the next champ comes along.
Respect, yes. Be in awe, no.


"Who are we to criticize these pros on their approaches to being the winner of the 28th US Open?"

Hardly a week goes by without a post about how Pool doesnt get the TV exposure it deserves. If JJ was taking 15+ mins to pot 8 balls, constantly cleaning his cue and taking 20+ practice strokes on EVERY ball , would that appeal to the general puplic?
Would anyone who is not an avid pool fan watch longer than 3 racks?

As I said, I wasnt there. I was asking for opinions.

Q
<hr /></blockquote>

eg8r
09-30-2003, 06:26 AM
Q I agree. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif It seems to be alright to talk about other pros and their ways to shoot, but no one can mention JJ or JP????? Get off it. I respect all the pros, but if they were taking a LONG time to shoot (I was not there, I am just talking in general), then I will be darned if I am not allowed to say something about it.

eg8r &lt;~~~Does not remember SacTown defending CW or Archers slow play.

Qtec
09-30-2003, 07:37 AM
eg8r, I just fell off my chair! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif



Q

Fran Crimi
09-30-2003, 07:37 AM
I'm not a big fan of talking during a match, even if the player is talking only on their shot. It's just not right. I remember a story about how all the pro golfers used to hate to be paired up with Lee Trevino because the guy talked so much. They claimed he was a major distraction to play with despite the fact that Lee never talked while the other players were over the ball. When players aren't shooting, they're thinking. They're getting their thoughts together, trying to calm their nerves and going through their mental rituals. That's all part of competition.

In pool competitions, even if you're sitting in the chair, you're still playing the game. Someone chattering away while you're trying to stay calm and focused is an assault on your mind. The players pay a lot of money to get to these tournaments and to be assaulted like that is just unfair. Even if your opponent can't help it because he has all this nervous energy, it's still wrong. And even if it amuses the spectators, it doesn't amuse the opponent and the opponent is the one who's competing, not the spectators. If you put any one of those specators in the opponent's place, they wouldn't like it either. A comment here and there by a player is one thing, but continuous remarks and chatter are IMO, one of the most selfish and disrespectful things a player can do to their opponent.

Fran

pooltchr
09-30-2003, 07:41 AM
Fran,
I am not trying to stir anything up or start any cat fights, but based on your comments, I wonder how you feel about playing Vivian.
Steve

Rich R.
09-30-2003, 09:31 AM
Fran, I understand your position, but isn't it the personalities like Vivian V. and Keith M. that may, in some small way, attract the non-playing public into the game of pool and help to make it more popular? After all, for a non-player to watch someone quietly sit in their chair, until it is their turn to shoot, go to the table, without saying a word and go back and sit down, is boring. Long time fans and players may like it, but not the general public.

There are a lot great personalities playing pool. You usually only see and hear their antics in pool rooms. I think showing more of that to the public, will draw more fans. Just look what Minnesota Fats did for the popularity of pool, in his day.

Although some of this stuff may be distracting to some of the players, ignoring it will have to be part of the job, of a "Professional" Pool Player.

Popcorn
09-30-2003, 11:05 AM
I can't agree with that, pool is not the X games. Where would you draw the line? The game is interesting as it is and true personalities can attract fans, but not at the expense of the game it's self. Players acting like professionals, I believe is more attractive then players acting out and adds more to the sport. Class always stands out.

Chris Cass
09-30-2003, 11:22 AM
Rich,

M Fats used to wait till the late hrs when some of the players were stone drunk and then wolf a money game to them. I guess he figured that would make it even.

C.C.

Iowashark
09-30-2003, 11:46 AM
I'm going to agree with Rich here. I think having colorful players can be a good addition to the sport. All sports have them. Dennis Rodman, Terrell Owens, John Rocker(okay, bad example), but the fact remains that though sometimes annoying, often entertaining. And if the competitors can't zone out the distraction and focus only on the game itself then maybe their mental game isn't where it could be. JMHO

Rich R.
09-30-2003, 11:49 AM
Popcorn, I prefer the classy approach, myself. However, the bottom line is that it does not attract new fans.

Believe me, I don't condone the idea of letting players go crazy, but we must allow them to show a little more personality, just to make things interesting for the non-playing public.

If, during his/her time at the table, a player wants to talk to the crowd or whistle or tap dance, let it be. As long as they are respectful when it is the other players time at the table.

If the personalities in pool are not allowed out of the box, 50 years from now, people will still be wondering, what can be done to attract fans. After all, we are competing with baseball, football, basketball and, as you said, the X-games, for TV time and fans.

Tom_In_Cincy
09-30-2003, 11:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> eg8r, I just fell off my chair! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Whoa... now I am in AWE... Q and eg8r.. agree? Maybe I need to step back and re-think my opinion...Nah.. still holds for me..

As for CW and Archer's slow play... I could only wish I could play half as good as them.. slow or not, they play at a level that I can only dream about.. Yes they are slow, defending their slow play, no way, not I.

Defending JJ and JP, at the US OPEN finals? YES.. the tension was so thick, the intensity so overwhelming, only a true pool player could appreciate this contest. It was so quiet you could hear the smokers puffing away outside the building.

Viewing public? they may also think that this is a very wierd way to play 8 ball.. who cares about them? they don't pay any of Pool's bills. Not in our lifetime, anyway. Why would anyone that doesn't know about pool watch or even PAY to watch it on TV?

Love to see Q and eg8r hug and agree on something..

Iowashark
09-30-2003, 12:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Why would anyone that doesn't know about pool watch or even PAY to watch it on TV?

<hr /></blockquote>



Which is why the tv viewing audience for pool is about the same as the WNBA. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'll probably get it for that one. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Perk
09-30-2003, 12:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Iowashark:</font><hr> colorful players "Terrell Owens" , but the fact remains that though sometimes annoying, often entertaining. <hr /></blockquote>

Hmmm..it was entertaining to watch him go off on an offensive coordinator on sunday and hoot and holler against his team, degrading his coaching staff, team, and Jeff Garcia.......

Yea, we need people like this in pool.....NOT JMO

Aboo
09-30-2003, 01:25 PM
I'm going to respectfully disagree here. You can show respect to your opponent and still be yourself.
Talking while your opponent is at the table is wrong. Talking while you are at the table is your choice. You do what you do during your time, he does what he does during his time.
If your not disciplined enough to concentrate on your game and block out the negative, then your probably not a Pro to begin with. And if you are, you won't stay a very good one for very long.

That goes for every sport. Not just pool.

Woof away, because when I drop that 8-ball I'll enjoy shaking your hand THAT much more! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif



Aboo &lt;-- Not good enough to block it out most times.

eg8r
09-30-2003, 02:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Defending JJ and JP, at the US OPEN finals? YES.. the tension was so thick, the intensity so overwhelming, only a true pool player could appreciate this contest. <hr /></blockquote> Only a true pool player????

eg8r

Iowashark
09-30-2003, 02:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Perk:</font><hr> Hmmm..it was entertaining to watch him go off on an offensive coordinator on sunday and hoot and holler against his team, degrading his coaching staff, team, and Jeff Garcia.......

Yea, we need people like this in pool.....NOT JMO <hr /></blockquote>



Okay, that was out of line and I agree we don't need that. I was thinking more along the lines of when he scored a touchdown against the Cowboys and ran the football back to midfield and set it on the star. Of course he got waylayed doing so. Or when he pulled the Sharpie marker out of his sock and signed the football after a touchdown. He's cocky and he's good, and he's not afraid to let everyone know.
And I'm also not saying we need to clone him and train his clone to play pool. I'm saying that having some players with a little more colorful personalities wouldn't be bad for the sport. As long as they can keep a fair amount of etiquette while their opponent is shooting, I don't see a problem.

Popcorn
09-30-2003, 02:42 PM
Quote
"If the personalities in pool are not allowed out of the box, 50 years from now, people will still be wondering, what can be done to attract fans."

Trust me when I tell you, we are both on the same page, we both would like to see the sport prosper, but at what cost? The game has a real beauty and dignity that has to be preserved. Just this last week end a tournament was played that represents that. I have been playing the game long enough to have seen the game go through several changes. I remember in the 60's after the small boost the game got from the movie the Hustler, rooms opening up and not lasting long. I remember when Brunswick was removing pool rooms from the bowling centers opting to use the space for meeting rooms or even storage. Then came the bar tables, at one point it was hard to even find a big table in many cities. I really thought the game as I always knew it, may in fact be done. Then it began to change, maybe due to COM. Now there are again big tables everywhere and pool is even on TV a little. What ever the future is, I would it prefer it never grow beyond the cult sport it is now, then to see it be destroyed. I remember when it almost was.

Aboo
09-30-2003, 02:47 PM
The game is "destroyed" if it's played on a bar table!? It still has the same dignity, beauty and charm, just in a slightly more confined space /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Popcorn
09-30-2003, 03:47 PM
I don't wish to debate this, but you couldn't go into a bar and say, "Give me a table, I would like to practice for a few hours". You could not play one pocket , straight pool, rotation or even 9 ball. In fact many places would not let you play 9 ball at all, it was very rare to see it in bars back then. You put up a quarter and played 8 ball only, by some ridicules rules. The time I am referring to is before the smaller cue balls and decent tables. The cue balls were bigger then billiard balls and usually filthy, tables were not maintained and were just a diversion for people that were out drinking. Most of the places put tables where ever often without even lights directly over the table and even then it was not adequate. Pool as a respected game was dead. It might as well been a pin ball machine. If you don't remember what it was like, or are not old enough, you can't imagine what it was like to be a pool player with no where to play.

Aboo
09-30-2003, 03:55 PM
That's fine sir. We won't debate it. I can't argue with the points you've made in the last post. I just argue with the fact that bar (I.E. smaller) tables somehow mean inferior, low-brow pool is being played. I just take exception to that inference. I was just clarifying it, that is all. No disrespect intended to an old-timer /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif


Aboo &lt;-- Loves playing straight pool on his bar table.

Popcorn
09-30-2003, 04:01 PM
My main reference was to the death of the pool room, not the size of the tables. In fact in the south you played more on 8 foot tables then you did 9 foot tables. Up north 9 footers and 10 footers were often refereed to rebel traps, because many southern players played only on the smaller tables and would get beat. I should add that back then most bar tables were 7 foot and even 6 foot, very few 8 footers.

Aboo
09-30-2003, 04:23 PM
Ok by me /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I'll keep my Yankee Trap for now! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I just honestly don't see the difference in the table size. Each size has their advantages and disadvantages. But a good player, given a little time to warm-up should perform equally well on any size table. Regardless.

Ross
09-30-2003, 04:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> There seems to be some disagreement on the web about our man,s performance at the Open.[ Well done K.M }.

What I am talking about is the question of sharking.

A lot of you guys were there in person. How did you see it?

Personally, If somebody wants to talk on THEIR shot, thats their buisness. As long as I get to play my shot , my way.


... Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

In the matches against Parica, I think Keith WAS doing some sharking, and I think Parica let it get to him. It started at the beginning when it was JP's turn to warm up before the match. Keith hovered close to the table and kept up a running commentary, and JP looked distracted by it. And several times thoughout the match as JP was getting up to shoot, Keith often said something to him. They were the "disguised sharking" kind of comments -- like making a big deal when your opponent makes a good shot, knowing that it will put more pressure on him for the next shot.

Jose tried to shut it all out but was unsuccessful as he got more and more irritated as the matches went on. That's why he exploded with expletives (even while he knew he was being filmed for TV) in reaction to Keith's soft break - he had let all of this irritation build up over the course of the match. IMO, JP would be have been more resistant to this kind of sharking if he had some kind of reaction when it was going on - make a joke out of it or assert himself with a complaint to Keith or Scott early on.

I'm with Chris and Fran in that I don't like this kind of behavior even if it does sell tickets. I do think it is fine (and good for audiences) for a player to be demonstrative but there is a difference between showing some emotion and saying things to get into your opponents head. If you can't beat them on skill it just cheapens the victory, I think.

That being said, I still enjoy Keith's one liners, congratulate him on his remarkable comeback, and wish him nothing but the best. Just would like to see him drop the little sharking moves.

Qtec
09-30-2003, 05:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, JP would be have been more resistant to this kind of sharking if he had some kind of reaction when it was going on - make a joke out of it or assert himself with a complaint to Keith or Scott early on.
<hr /></blockquote>

Complain , yes.
Dont you think the ref should have said something himself if he thought that a player was acting against the spirit of the game?

The problem with answering back with a smarta$$ remark of your own is that its a slippery slide. You end up playing his game. Your concentration should be on the table, not on what your opponent is doing.
eg, I have also read that JJ was not the only slow play offender.If one player is playing extra slow, the opponent will also slow down, just to have more time at the table. This leads to a boring game thats not pleasant to watch and not pleasant to play in.
I dont think it would be advantageous to pool if verbal immtimidation was accepted just because both players were doing it.


Personal remarks to your opponent during a match is a big no-no. IMO

Q

Fran Crimi
09-30-2003, 05:49 PM
Rich, judging by the responses, most here seem to be in agreement that it's not OK to talk while your opponent is shooting, but it is OK to do it when it's your turn at the table.

What about the players on the next table? Do they get the same courtesy or because they're 7 or 8 feet away, they don't count? Remember, if the spectators can hear the chatterbox, so do the players on the next table, and maybe even two tables down or more.


Fran

Tom_In_Cincy
09-30-2003, 07:53 PM
eg8r.

Sorry, that should have read 'only a true pool FAN' (my bad)

"True pool fan" def.,(IMO) a fan that has many years of experience watching the pros play and can appreciate the level of excellence that can be seen in a finals match at the US Open.

Tom_In_Cincy
09-30-2003, 08:03 PM
Fran, (Good point)
During the Efren-Bustemante macth, Keith was playing Alex P. on a nearby table. Keith's chatter did bother the TV match so much, it was delayed, not by the players, but by BCn/Accustats cameramen, turning their cameras to the Keith/Alex match.

It might have been a good move by the TV crew directors, but it sure didn't show much respect for Efren and Bustamante.

I was sitting within 6 feet from Keith's table and maybe 20 feet from the TV table. I got whip lash from jerking my head back and forth. I felt like I was at a tennis match.

Scott Smith should have said something to Keith, (IMO). Keith was way too loud, not to effect other players concentration at other tables.

CarolNYC
10-01-2003, 03:38 AM
[ QUOTE ]
but isn't it the personalities like Vivian V <hr /></blockquote>
I agree! Vivians flair and charisma definitely attracts the public and they love it!I think SOME interaction with the audience ,lessens the tension and maybe gives them a sense of appreciation for coming to watch!At the last event, I had to jump the cueball into a 2-9 combo-well, the 9 pocketed,but my cueball flew off the table and I just turned and looked at the crowd and said 'I hate when that happens"well, a straight-faced, serious crowd turned into a smiling,cheering crowd-I just thought that was cool!
[ QUOTE ]
some of this stuff may be distracting to some of the players, ignoring it will have to be part of the job, of a "Professional" Pool Player. <hr /></blockquote>
TAP!TAP!TAP!
Carol

Rich R.
10-01-2003, 05:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> What about the players on the next table? Do they get the same courtesy or because they're 7 or 8 feet away, they don't count? Remember, if the spectators can hear the chatterbox, so do the players on the next table, and maybe even two tables down or more.
<hr /></blockquote>
Fran, you have a valid point. Players on other tables do deserve respect and there does have to be limits. However, turning a tournament room into a library is not the answer.

After all, there is usually a constant hum from the talk in the crowd, that tends to cancel out a lot of talk at the tables. At times, it is hard to hear from 10 feet away. During the main part of a tournament, there is also noise from balls breaking and hard shots, as well as other players talking. The crowd near one table may applaud for a good shot, when some one is getting ready to shoot at another table. There is plenty of noise to go around.
The players have to block it all out. The "chatterbox" is just one more thing to block out.

I have to say, most pool rooms, that these players are in every day, have many more distractions, than any tournament room.

Voodoo Daddy
10-01-2003, 05:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> The "chatterbox" is just one more thing to block out. <hr /></blockquote>

Chatterbox's {in my opinion} have no place in a tournament. Just because a man/woman babbles between racks doesnt mean EVERYONE is between racks. Sigel was notorious for that and Earl does his share of crowd-chatter, I'm a believer of silent but deadly ala Varner, Reyes and the countless others that barely utter a word!!

eg8r
10-01-2003, 07:55 AM
[ QUOTE ]
"True pool fan" def.,(IMO) a fan that has many years of experience watching the pros play and can appreciate the level of excellence that can be seen in a finals match at the US Open. <hr /></blockquote> Your definition seems a bit narrow-minded. I would venture to say there is a good majority of the regular posters here that have been watching the pros play for years (myself included). We all also appreciate "the level of excellence" it takes to get to the finals and play well in the finals. What the heck does that have to do with the Professional, who has all this excellent skill, playing mind-numbingly slow all of a sudden. Surely they are used to playing under pressure by now.

I am sorry, but your definition is a poor excuse for your defense of one player playing slow in one tournament, and not another player in another tournament.

I am sure there are a bunch of "true" pool fans all over the world that would disagree with your narrow-minded definition of what it takes to be a true pool fan.

eg8r

Fran Crimi
10-01-2003, 08:22 AM
Rich, I've heard that expression "the pros should be able to block out distractions" a lot, and you're certainly not the first to say that. It kind of reminds me of the expression "You should never have to use more than one tip of English." Somewhere along the line, the truth got kind of blown out of perspective.

Sure, there are cerain distractions the pro player is trained to deal with, but I think you'd have to be a Tibetan monk to be able to block out constant talking. You're asking an awful lot of the pros there, Rich.

Your comment about dealing with the same distractions in a pool room isn't exactly the case either, because if two pros decided to match up in a pool room to play, the players around them would give them courtesy. In many cases, the room would keep the tables on either side empty and the crowd gathering around would stay pretty quiet. I imagine there are some players who don't mind matching up next to a table with other players carrying on and talking, but you'd be hard pressed to find top players doing that in any pool room.

Fran

Qtec
10-01-2003, 08:45 AM
I think Tom,s definition of a 'true'pool fan , is someone who can watch a mind numbingly boring match and still enjoy it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

we all have our own opinions on how players should conduct themselves. The fact is, in KM,s case, is that the opponent did not object,[ at least not straight away ] the referee's did not object, the other players on other tables did not object and the Tournament director did not object to how he was conducting himself.

I would have thought that a 'code of conduct'would be one of the first things the UPA would address when setting up an orginisation to promote Pro pool.

In snooker, the ref has power, he's not just their to rack the balls.

Q

Voodoo Daddy
10-01-2003, 08:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> I am sure there are a bunch of "true" pool fans all over the world that would disagree with your narrow-minded definition of what it takes to be a true pool fan.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Kinda hard on a guy that voices his opinion...

Tom_In_Cincy
10-01-2003, 09:01 AM
eg8r,
I appreciate your feedback and will keep it in mind in future posts.
If I am 'narrow minded' in my opinion about this subject, then it's because of the passion I have for pool and the respect I have for the excellence of how the pros play.

I deal with pool players on a daily basis and try to conduct myself in a manner that reflects my opinions. I try to stay as consistant as possible and not let emotions overtake my judgements. Sometimes I do get more passionate than I should and maybe this was one of those times.

I am sorry if I have failed to meet your standards of making a statement, I am not as eloquent as you in making 'arguments', all I do is try to get my point across.

Hopefully, some will understand what I am saying.

DoomCue
10-01-2003, 09:04 AM
Also, during the Alex/Keith match, Johnny Archer was playing Howard Vickery on the table next to Alex and Keith. Johnny was not too happy with Keith, and voiced his opinion. In fact, Johnny sat down and stopped playing for the last couple of racks of the Alex/Keith match so he wouldn't be distracted by Keith's shenanigans. Keith's actions must have really gotten under his skin, which I think is understandable. So I agree with you Tom, Scott should have stepped in and asked Keith to tone it down. However, the crowd was so into it, I'd be willing to bet Scott would've been booed heartily if he had. Still, Keith's antics had an effect not just on Alex, but on the Reyes/Bustamante match and the Archer/Vickery match. Also, I thought it was very amateurish and inconsiderate of the BCN TV director to halt the Reyes/Bustamante match and make them wait so BCN could film the final game of Alex/Keith. I thought that was very unnecessary, and it stopped the flow of the match on the TV table. Although I didn't see/hear Efren or Busty react negatively, I'd wager they weren't too happy with that either.

-djb

bolo
10-01-2003, 09:12 AM
It is common for a bar player to snap off a big table player, they are specialists. Given enough time the big table player would adapt but there is a lot to learn about the bar box to play your best game on it, they would be broke by then. It doesn't take much for one player to get an advantage over another and a different size table would be big. Even simple position play changes from the small table to the big table and visa versa. The generality that a good player should be able to play their game on any table is not true in the short run. The better the players the bigger any small edge is. I have seen top notch players, I am not kidding, Incardona, Sigal, Cook and many more, lose to what many would call short stops on funky equipment, which often defines the bar box. I don't mean a game or two, entire sessions of play, the cash. Talk to any road player they will tell you horror stories.

Aboo
10-01-2003, 09:22 AM
I can believe this actually. I just had two very good players spend a night of hell playing on my personal table. It's an old bar box, with VERY tight pockets. It's a little slow, compared to a normal bar box, because I take good care of the felt and don't let it get insanely thin.

These two gentleman normally kick my BUTT at the pool hall. But I held the table for the majority of a 6 hour session. Losing only 2-3 games to either of them until very late in the session when the sl7 began to get the feel of the table and started putting long runs together.

I'm going over to one of their houses this Friday and I expect the "tables to be turned", pun intended lol.

Qtec
10-01-2003, 09:23 AM
[ QUOTE ]
So I agree with you Tom, Scott should have stepped in and asked Keith to tone it down. However, the crowd was so into it, I'd be willing to bet Scott would've been booed heartily if he had. <hr /></blockquote>

I find this quite amazing.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I thought it was very amateurish and inconsiderate of the BCN TV director to halt the Reyes/Bustamante match and make them wait so BCN could film the final game of Alex/Keith. I thought that was very unnecessary, and it stopped the flow of the match on the TV table. Although I didn't see/hear Efren or Busty react negatively, I'd wager they weren't too happy with that either.
<hr /></blockquote>


Sounds to me that the crowd and the BCN were running the US Open tournament.


So many people who were there have different perceptions about what happened.


I dont know what to think anymore.

Come on people, we need to hear from others that were present.

Qtec

=k=
10-01-2003, 09:39 AM
Tom was Johnny ahead or behind in this match? I am just wondering. i hate rap imho (crap) but when it comes blaring out of the juke box. i don't hear it when i am shooting. granted i do not play at this level, but at the level i do play and just as important to me as these matches. There are ten times more distractions. chatter on Keith!

10-01-2003, 10:30 AM

bolo
10-01-2003, 10:32 AM
I can't even believe anyone would debate this. A player should conduct themselves properly at all times and that means not banging their cues talking when the other players are shooting or any other disruptive behavior. Like you said it is difficult to play next to all that, much less have to be playing the guy. I once was playing a world champion player in a match and he was schmoozing with the audience, signing autographs and so on. I went to the tournament director and asked him, "What it this the S**** M****** show? Tell him to sit down and be quiet". I ended up winning the match by the way. It just is not right and I doubt the audience thinks it is cool either.

bolo
10-01-2003, 10:43 AM
The Mosconi cup is contrived and almost choreographed. That is what they, the promoters want to happen. Big difference between that and driving 1000 miles and plunking down your money to play in a tournament. When I go to a tournament I expect a professional atmosphere, it is only fair. Don't use the Mosconi cup as any yard stick of how a tournament is to be run.

Qtec
10-01-2003, 10:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I can't even believe anyone would debate this <hr /></blockquote>

Bolo,its being debated because it happened at the US Open and no official did anything about it.

Any young future player who was there ,now thinks this kind of behaviour is acceptable, because it happened at the most prestegious pool tournament in America.

Q

bolo
10-01-2003, 10:49 AM
It just seems like Miss Crimi is having to defend the obvious.

eg8r
10-01-2003, 10:55 AM
Maybe I was, but in retrospect his def. seems to be some sort of slam. It came across to me, that he was the true pool fan, and somehow I was not because I found something I did not like about the actions of the players. I am not really sorry for having my own opinion of how they should act, and I don't think having that opinion removes me from the "true pool fan" club. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I also find it a bit hypocritical of a self-proclaimed "true pool fan" to stick up for the slow players at one tournament but not stick up for other slow players in another tournament. A true pool fan might think it right to stick up for "ALL" the slow players out there.

eg8r

Qtec
10-01-2003, 11:05 AM
Bolo, I dont think Fran is defending anything. She stated honestly her opinion, as I have done.
I think we all agree that there are boundaries that should not be crossed. Its just a matter of drawing the line and most importantly, that they be enforced.

When McEnroe argued with the umpire, I dont think he did it deliberatly to affect his opponents play, and the crowd loved it.
How his opponent felt about it tho ???

Q

eg8r
10-01-2003, 11:06 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry if I have failed to meet your standards of making a statement, I am not as eloquent as you in making 'arguments', all I do is try to get my point across.

Hopefully, some will understand what I am saying. <hr /></blockquote> This is not about being eloquent or not (God knows I have never been accused of being eloquent). What it is about is the fact that someone pointed out that the players in the finals sloooooooooooowed way down. That person questioned it, and I admitted that I did not like it. This somehow has removed me from being a pool fan. I don't think so...What it has done is prove I do not have a brown nose (was that eloquent?). I admire those guys skill and ability and nothing has changed any of that.

[ QUOTE ]
Viewing public? they may also think that this is a very wierd way to play 8 ball.. who cares about them? they don't pay any of Pool's bills. Not in our lifetime, anyway.
<hr /></blockquote> What a mouthful. Thank you for trying to shoot the future of pool in the foot. If pool is to grow, I believe the goal is to increase viewership of the game. Get more people interested in the game. In your quote you wonderfully state (in reference to the viewers) "who cares about them?" This is probably not the outlook the BCn are taking, but maybe they are not "true" pool fans. What do you think?

[ QUOTE ]
Why would anyone that doesn't know about pool watch or even PAY to watch it on TV? <hr /></blockquote> I am not sure, maybe something has piqued their interest. I will state, given your standpoint, you would offer them NOTHING to watch, since you don't care about them, and would gladly let a pro take a prolonged period of rest inbetween each shot if they so felt inclined to.

eg8r

Iowashark
10-01-2003, 11:09 AM
So what are we talking about here? Is it slow play, or sharking. I personally think that as long as it's not breaking any posted rules, let the players talk as much as they want and take as long as they want on a shot. Granted the second one won't be helping the fan base especially on a televised match. If the rules don't state contrary, then the player is in the right to do whatever he wants.


Dave~~~~~~believes a shot clock should be enforced.

Qtec
10-01-2003, 11:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
What it has done is prove I do not have a brown nose (was that eloquent?). <hr /></blockquote>

HaHaHa

Q
[ Ed, youre on a roll /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif]

RedHell
10-01-2003, 11:32 AM
The shot clock would be ideal, but it would require a lot of people to enforce a shot clock on every table.

I would probably enforce a tournement rule the same way that the VNEA league here enforce the rule of slowplay.

According to our rule, a player has one minute to execute a shot. If his opponent think he's guilty of slowplay, he can inform a ref of the complain and at this point both players gets a shot clock. If you break the one minute it's a foul and there is no extension.

9 Ball Girl
10-01-2003, 11:53 AM
I think it's more of a personal preference. Some might be able to better handle the "noise"makers and some prefer to be able to hear a pin drop. I myself can go either way depending on the kind of pressure or game or whatever I'm involved in. There may be times when I'm playing that I'm so zoned out that even a naked guy wouldn't distract me. There've been times where a single sneeze on the other table would bother me. I guess I adapt to whatever environment I happen to be in, know what I mean? I've seen players disturbed by the ruckus that's going on at another table all the way across the room on the opposite side! To each his own I guess. The safest bet, IMO, is to just be quiet I guess--when you're playing in tourneys and everyone around you is playing in the tourney as well. JMO

cheesemouse
10-01-2003, 12:10 PM
I think the true professionals, the true champions simply take care of business with what goes on between the rails and everything else is much to do about nothing to them.....if loud talk distracts you, you are distractable. If slow play bothers you, you are iceable...if both things bother you, you are not a true professional and you ain't gonna be around very long anyway. The big boys play good under all conditions that's why they are at the top.

Chris in NC
10-01-2003, 12:28 PM
Dave, you've just hit the nail on the head. It was/is obvious that there are no set rules at the U.S. Open in terms of slow play and/or opponents talking to themselves, their opponent or the crowd during a match.

A few years ago I witnessed a near 4 hour match at the US Open that was allowed to take place between Vickery and a Japanese player. It threw that entire bracket behind schedule for the rest of the night, and as a result matches didn't end until nearly 3am. To my recollection, the players were never warned by SS - just as KM was never warned by SS this year as to his antics.

Bottom line - if the players are allowed to get away with it by the tournament guidelines and by the TD, then I guess it's legal. We can debate this all we want, but the only thing that matters is whether Barry, Scott, the UPA or whoever might consider not only drawing up, but actually enforcing some rules regarding these issues at tournaments. - Chris in NC

Tom_In_Cincy
10-01-2003, 12:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
This somehow has removed me from being a pool fan.

<font color="blue">'removing you from being a pool fan' was not my intention, sorry if I hurt your feelings enough for you to respond this way, My fault </font color>
I don't think so...What it has done is prove I do not have a brown nose (was that eloquent?). <font color="blue"> Quite eloquent, Does this mean you think that I am a brown noser? </font color>

I admire those guys skill and ability and nothing has changed any of that.

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Viewing public? they may also think that this is a very wierd way to play 8 ball.. who cares about them? they don't pay any of Pool's bills. Not in our lifetime, anyway.
<hr /></blockquote> What a mouthful. Thank you for trying to shoot the future of pool in the foot.
<font color="blue">You give me too much credit for my actions. I don't have to do anything to help 'shoot' pool's future, Pool has been doing that for ages. </font color>
If pool is to grow, I believe the goal is to increase viewership of the game. Get more people interested in the game. In your quote you wonderfully state (in reference to the viewers) "who cares about them?" This is probably not the outlook the BCn are taking, but maybe they are not "true" pool fans. What do you think? <font color="blue">If you would take some time, you would find that I have never been an avocate of pool growing into a Major sport like the NFL, MLB or even soccer. </font color>

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Why would anyone that doesn't know about pool watch or even PAY to watch it on TV? <hr /></blockquote> I am not sure, maybe something has piqued their interest. I will state, given your standpoint, you would offer them NOTHING to watch, since you don't care about them, and would gladly let a pro take a prolonged period of rest inbetween each shot if they so felt inclined to.
<font color="blue"> You do understand how I feel. That's good. Nothing special for anyone that has $10 and a TV. Besides, it can always be edited. </font color>
eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

DoomCue
10-01-2003, 12:50 PM
Johnny was behind at the time. Alex and Keith finished well before Johnny and Howard, though. Actually, Vickery should have won that match. He got to the hill first, and had three chances to close it out, and blew them all. He played a safety in the hill-hill game which left an easy kick to a pretty much dead 2-9 combo. Of course, Johnny made it and won the set.

I think Johnny was right to be upset because he was distracted by a distraction that should not have been there. It's one thing to contend with crowd noise when you expect a crowd to be there. It's quite another to have somebody shouting things after every rack at the table next to you when you're trying to play. When Keith finished a rack, he always yelled out, "Rack 'em, Spike!" If he missed, he usually had something else to say. I can imagine being down on a shot and have somebody five feet from me yelling, "Rack 'em, Spike!" and losing my concentration. Number one, it's funny. Number two, it's unexpected, because no other player does that. So of course, it can be distracting. Here's a non-pool analogy. It's easy to tune out background noise, you do that when you're driving your car. You could be driving along, your mind completely on the road. However, if somebody pulls up next to you and honks at you, it grabs your attention in a hurry, sometimes enough so that you jerk the wheel. Now, imagine being down on the shot, hearing Keith yell, and then you jerk your cue, causing an unintended result. Would you be happy about it? I'm not saying that Johnny jerked his cue and played a bad shot, as far as I know he didn't. However, thinking that's going to happen can be just as bad. Your mental focus isn't on the task at hand, you're too busy wondering when the blowhard (not that I think Keith is a blowhard, this is simply a hypothetical) at the next table is going to shout something else. That's reason enough for me to think Scott should've stepped in and done something about it.

eg8r
10-01-2003, 12:55 PM
Brown noser, yes. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif However, there are no hard feelings. I love pool, and have my own ideas. Those ideas whether spoken or kept quiet do not change the fact that I am a pool fan. I see you were not implying that, so I am sorry for suggesting you were.

eg8r

bolo
10-01-2003, 01:00 PM
Since you like the word professional, what would you consider the person causing all the disruption? I would say, not very professional. The player that you say is taking care of business may hide whether he or she is being bothered by what is going on, but that does not change the right of wrong of the matter. It would be covered I guess, under good sportsmanship if you were forced to come up with a rule and that would be up the discretion of the tournament director. They don't seem to get involved unless the player complains though. In other words, if you complain you come off looking like the jerk many times, so you just put up with it, that does not make it OK.

Tom_In_Cincy
10-01-2003, 01:15 PM
eg8r,

you might enjoy some of these; (from a good friend in attendance at the US Open, he posted these on his site)

MCCREADY-ISMS

"Rack-em Spike" Spoken by Keith McCready to Alex Pagulyan @ the 2003 U S Open, (in reference to Alexs' hair)

"Uh-ohhh.......IIIIII see a run-out" Spoken by Keith after making a ball on the break, to Alex @ the 2003 U S Open.

"You can put this one on the inter-net" Spoken by Keith to the Pool &amp; Billiard, Billiards Digest, and Inside Pool reporters just before shooting the 9 ball against Alex. (2003 U S Open.)

"You can put this one on the other-net" Spoken by Alex to the same reporters after pocketing the 9 ball McCready missed in the previous quote. (2003 U S Open.)

"Uh- ohhhh, we can't let him get away with that now can we?" Spoken by Keith, while jumping out of his chair, to the crowd after Neils Feijen dropped the chalk and it hit the cue ball. (2003 U S Open)

"Hey Jose, I beat the line, I won one!" Spoken by Keith after being down to Parica, and winning his first game. (2003 U S Open)

"Ooops Jose, I hit the wrong polka-dot" Spoken by Keith, to Parica, after a mis-cue on the TV table. (The TV table used a Spotted cue ball so that viewers could pick up the spin on the ball.) (2003 U S Open)

"GIN BABYYYYYY" Shouted by McCready as a ball rolled SLOWLY towards a pocket after his break while he was on a roll. (2003 U S Open)

9 Ball Girl
10-01-2003, 01:17 PM
Just like to add:

"On the snap, Vincent!" spoken while he was getting ready to break while during his match with Buddy Hall @ the 2003 US Open

cheesemouse
10-01-2003, 01:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> Since you like the word professional, what would you consider the person causing all the disruption? I would say, not very professional. The player that you say is taking care of business may hide whether he or she is being bothered by what is going on, but that does not change the right of wrong of the matter. It would be covered I guess, under good sportsmanship if you were forced to come up with a rule and that would be up the discretion of the tournament director. They don't seem to get involved unless the player complains though. In other words, if you complain you come off looking like the jerk many times, so you just put up with it, that does not make it OK. <hr /></blockquote>

Bolo,
I'm just saying that in the case of KM and his play in the Open his opponents weren't new kids on the block. I'm sure each one of them said to themselves "Keiths act is not going to change my game in between the rails." Can you imagine JP being suprised by anything KM did during the televised match. I'll bet he took it all in stride and JUST TOOK CARE OF BUSINESS in a very professional manner. Keith is Keith and these guys are not surprised by his antics and if they are well...

I'm not defending unsportsmanlike conduct I'm just saying the pro's deal with it. The game is on and there is not much to be done about it outside of your opponent getting so out of hand that he is DQ'ed.

Keith McCready
10-01-2003, 01:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>Comments?<hr /></blockquote>

For anybody that knows me and knows who I am, I like to play pool and I like to have fun when I play. I was never trying to shark my opponents at the 2003 U.S. Open.

Sometimes when I compete in tournaments, depending on who is my opponent, a crowd will draw near. There were certain matches at the Open when audience members would call my name and then there would be applause and cheers after every shot I made successfully, even laughter when I missed, and when this crowd interaction occurs, you try to acknowledge them and keep the positive momentum going forward. What was I supposed to say to the crowd, "Could you guys please be quiet while I am shooting?" I probably enjoy the crowd almost as much as I do winning.

The only two things that I play for when I play is the crowd and the money, but that's just me. And for the ones who are offended by my style of play, I apologize.

BCn will televise the semi-final and final matches of the 2003 U.S. Open. The matches that I played on the televised table were with Buddy Hall, hill-hill game with Alex, me knocking Jose in the loser's bracket, Jeremy Jones knocking me in the loser's bracket, and Jose eliminating me from the tournament in the loser's bracket, with me finishing third.

Hopefully, some of you guys out there who were not able to attend this great event will get the chance to view these matches and come to your own conclusions. I can only offer you my thoughts on how I saw things. There's a couple of issues that I have not gone into because, as I have learned in my brief experience here on the Internet, what you say in print seems to be misinterpreted by a select few.

Check out the website of Billiard Club Television, www.billiardclub.net (http://www.billiardclub.net) and see for yourself. You will be able to find out the dates for ordering the 2003 U.S. Open semi-finals and finals, as well as other premier pool events in our country and around the world. I believe you will not be disappointed.

Earthquake

RedHell
10-01-2003, 02:11 PM
I think all these are quite acceptable. I don't see any sharking tactics by expressing your satisfaction, motivation or other.

OK, maybe I'm in the loud player group, but it is common for me to talk to the balls or make comments after I made a good or bad shot. The only thing I wouldn't do is announce that the game is over before it is, I'm not confident enough for that and way to superticious.

Being loud and make comments shouldn't disturb the players on the other tables. These guys have learned to play in bar/poolroom where noise is common. When we play our end of the year tournement on 40 bar box and close to 500 players in the arena, you can bet that there will be a team that will start yelling after clinching some unexpected victory.

My guess is a pro player should have learn to play in those conditions.

Aboo
10-01-2003, 02:16 PM
Honestly, all of these "isms" sound like something anyone of us here might say to their friends and/or opponents at the local pool-hall.
If that "detracts" from the game in any way, I fail to see how. Quite the opposite, I feel like it might draw the observer closer to the game, and help them identify with the pro's themselves.

"You can put this on the other-net" LOLOL That was a good one :P

It seems like everyone is so concerned with how KM's "antics" might have interfered with the other players at the tournament. What about what he needed to do for HIMSELF to win? That's why you enter a tourny. To win. Not to look good in a penguin suit.

The long and the short of it is this. If it's YOU OR I competing for the cash, then we have the right to make our feelings known. Until then, who gives a damn what WE think?? And what gives us the right to judge them? ANY of them?

RedHell
10-01-2003, 02:20 PM
Keith,

I'm glad you took time to explain and respond on this thread. I've read the mess that JAM was put in on RSB, and was very disapointed that they manage to push her away from the NG.

Please, let her know that CCB is able to behave and that we could make her feel welcome among us. Her road stories is a nice way to keep up with where you are and how you're doing.

BTW, congrat on that great finnish in the Open and you're recent 1st place finnish.

eg8r
10-01-2003, 02:32 PM
Keith, I will definitely be watching. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Congrats on your 3rd place finish.


Gotta love BCn. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
10-01-2003, 02:37 PM
Those quotes sound like Ken (rackmup). /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Sound familiar Kato????

eg8r &lt;~~~Not very quiet when I play either /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Keith Talent
10-01-2003, 02:55 PM
On the subject of distractions ... I haven't seen the matches yet, so I can't say anything about what went on, but I think the big question is: were these quick comments or extended banter?

I work in a newsroom with plenty of background noise ... at any given moment there are about 5 TVs blaring (quite often coverage of the same event, one on a tape delay a few seconds behind the other), a dozen people joking, a handful of loudmouths rooting for or against the Yankees, another 10 on the phone trying to get details on a story, frequent fire alarm tests ... all of it's white noise, UNTIL you get one person with a big voice making dinner reservations, or holding forth on how the Times covered whatever ...

That one voice cuts through the noise and will draw you in against your will and totally shatter your concentration. I'm sitting here, say, trying to write a headline 2 minutes before deadline, and nothing can derail me (or to judge from the cursing, those nearby, as well) quicker than some idle chatter that just won't stop.

So, the crashing of the balls, shouts from the crowd or players probably wouldn't make much difference to a lot of people ... but a drawn-out series of comments nearby really can paralyze your thought processes, I think.

Fred Agnir
10-01-2003, 03:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> So many people who were there have different perceptions about what happened.


I dont know what to think anymore.

Come on people, we need to hear from others that were present.

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>What else do you want to hear? Keith was loud in all of his matches. He distracted other tables, and obviously distracted his opponents. He's entertaining, but sometimes it goes a little to far, IMO. Unless there's a hard line rule on the board, then he has free reign to continue. That's not his fault, I guess.

JJ was slow, but IMO, he never crossed the lines of irritation. I didn't even think he approached it. Buddy and Nick aren't exactly fast players. Does anyone talk about their slow play?

Archer is brutal with his up and down and up and down. Delicious was also brutal with his near 30 strokes while down. JJ was nowhere near these two.

Fred

Kato
10-01-2003, 03:08 PM
Ken's pretty darn civil with me if you want to know the truth. I'm a weird player any way. Sometimes I'm very demonstrative (the CCB tournament) and sometimes I'll go hours without uttering a word to my opponent. I will talk to any ball that will listen to me and use the appropriate amount of body english to get proper position. These things I don't feel guilty about. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif The one thing I love about Ken is he makes me smile when he's playing. I don't know if I want to play Keith though, he'd make me rack too much /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Kato~~~doesn't really talk to many people in the pool room...................right guys? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Fred Agnir
10-01-2003, 03:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Aboo:</font><hr> The game is "destroyed" if it's played on a bar table!? It still has the same dignity, beauty and charm, just in a slightly more confined space /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote> I need to respond to this, because I think clarification is needed. I've said this some other year, but IMO, one of the reasons that pool can't go mainstream is because of bar tables. Bar tables make pool available to everyone. It becomes common, run of the mill, and ordinary. The vast majority of the 40MM+ people counted as "pool players" consider bar tables on Friday night as "real pool." That overall view point of bar pool on Friday nights as the game has watered down the general public's perception of championship pool.

Fred &lt;~~~ hope nobody jumps the gun before reading

BCn
10-01-2003, 03:10 PM
From our perspective, the more vocal and animated a player is, the more dynamic the programming will be and thus, the more entertaining.

This is why you'll see Keith in the pay-per-view matches, with highlights from his match versus Buddy Hall and versus Alex in Dish Network's Hill/Hill show #1 featuring Busty and Reyes, as well as his complete match against Parica, with even more highlights of his other matches.

Like Earl Strickland, love him or hate him, he's a TV icon in Europe on the Matchroom Sport programming. Not only because of his talent, but because of his behavior and presence. Matchroom demands that Earl participate in their events, at the dismay of the UPA. But Earl is Earl and he attracts a crowd and it makes for good TV. Remember the CBS Sports shows featuring Fats and Mosconi, same thing.

Keith McCready knows this and he proved it at the U S Open. Even when he was off his game, he was a fan favorite and he put on a good show and that, once again, makes for good TV.

As for halting the Reyes / Bustamante match to show the McCready / Pagulayan final games, that was our decision and it was made before the match started. We informed both Efren and Francisco of the possibility. Neither complained or had a problem with it. Besides, if you're fortunate to see the PPV, you'll be treated to that bonus coverage. The announcers had a bird's eye view as well as the monitors to call the finish.

We're trying to provide the most realistic and authentic view of the U S Open as possible. If you were unable to make the event or you just want to see the best Pool on TV available, get the PPV as see for yourself.



Rob Sykora
BCn
1-866-774-8770
www.billiardclub.net (http://www.billiardclub.net)

Fred Agnir
10-01-2003, 03:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr>
I'm glad you took time to explain and respond on this thread. I've read the mess that JAM was put in on RSB, and was very disapointed that they manage to push her away from the NG.<hr /></blockquote> Now I have to come to the defense of RSB posters. Jennie made her bed. She wasn't so innocent, and she'd admit to it. In her rush to defend Keith so much, she missed how many times those same people were praising Keith. Apparently, you must have missed that, too.

Fred &lt;~~~ praising Keith

Fred Agnir
10-01-2003, 03:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BCn:</font><hr> From our perspective, the more vocal and animated a player is, the more dynamic the programming will be and thus, the more entertaining. <hr /></blockquote> Does that mean we'll get to see "The Wave"?

Fred

9 Ball Girl
10-01-2003, 03:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BCn:</font><hr> From our perspective, the more vocal and animated a player is, the more dynamic the programming will be and thus, the more entertaining. <hr /></blockquote> Does that mean we'll get to see "The Wave"?

Fred <hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fred Agnir
10-01-2003, 03:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom:</font><hr>
"True pool fan" def.,(IMO) a fan that has many years of experience watching the pros play and can appreciate the level of excellence that can be seen in a finals match at the US Open. <hr /></blockquote> Your definition seems a bit narrow-minded. I would venture to say there is a good majority of the regular posters here that have been watching the pros play for years (myself included). <hr /></blockquote>


Is there anything in Tom in Cincy's previous posts that makes you think he was saying that you wouldn't have appreciated it if you were there? I don't see that.

Fred &lt;~~~ true pool fan

Aboo
10-01-2003, 03:33 PM
Why would I have to jump the gun before reading when you just called every guy that prefers a bar table a no talent banger?

Son of a... I'm going to try REAL hard to stay civil here. In respect for your status in this community.

What exactly is it that your trying to clarify? I can think of a few things you clarified for me, none of which are polite.

[ QUOTE ]
Bar tables make pool available to everyone. It becomes common, run of the mill, and ordinary. <hr /></blockquote>

Funny, but when I was six years old I picked up a baseball glove and started playing hard-ball. I was ecstatic to be emulating the likes of Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb and Willie Mays. My fathers and my grandfathers hero's. This in NO WAY "watered down" the sport of baseball for me. It DID however make it attainable, more enjoyable to watch and much easier to understand when I did watch and listen to the ball games.

[ QUOTE ]
The vast majority of the 40MM+ people counted as "pool players" consider bar tables on Friday night as "real pool." That overall view point of bar pool on Friday nights as the game has watered down the general public's perception of championship pool. <hr /></blockquote>

This I just don't understand. Your assuming that 40 million + people think the same thing about pool that you obviously do. Or are angry that they/we refuse to ONLY play on 9-foot, Simoinse (sp?) covered tables, there-by cheapening "your" game...... I'm going to stop here to refrain from using expletives and further personal attacks on your over-all attitude and mis-conceptions. Not to mention audacity in interpreting the general public's opinions and thoughts on ANY sport, pass-time or enjoyable hobbies.


Aboo &lt;-- Believes ANY table is a good table and enjoys playing on and watching the game played on them ALL.

Fred Agnir
10-01-2003, 03:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Aboo:</font><hr> Why would I have to jump the gun before reading when you just called every guy that prefers a bar table a no talent banger?
<hr /></blockquote> I know that's what you choose to read from my post. It's clear from your other responses. I said nothing of the sort, however. I think you jumped the gun before reading. I can't say that any other way.

I did discuss public perception, the public including the 40MM+ people counted as "pool players." You and I represent only about 1MM or less pool players who have any understanding of the game. I'm talking about the other 39MM who have no clue about real pool (and yet are counted as "pool players",} and are only exposed to bar tables on Friday Nights. It is they, not we, that end up forming the rest of the public's opinion on pool. My opinion on how bar tables have affected the public's perception on pool is an elegant viewpoint, IMO. I'd hope you would digest it a little more before jumping all over it. It might make a some sense, and you might find yourself agreeing. Others certainly have.

Fred &lt;~~~ wonders if anyone else doesn't realize that I'm a bar player?

Aboo
10-01-2003, 04:02 PM
I fired the gun, knowing exactly what you wrote. I read it three or four times before I hit the reply button. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I notice you chose to bypass my baseball analogy and I wonder why? The fact is, that bar tables make the game accessible to more people. We seem to agree on this fact. However, we don't agree on the effect this has on the general populance apparently.

I've said it before, and I'll definitely say it again. The equipment the game is played on, size of table especially, has little if any impact on the game as a whole. It is the perception and attitude of the players competing that sway public opinion one way or another.

Fred, the fact is, if your any good at all, you almost have to be a bar player. There's almost no where else to play unless your lucky enough to have the space and money to own a 9 foot + table.

Note, I said almost.

Fred Agnir
10-01-2003, 04:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Aboo:</font><hr> I fired the gun, knowing exactly what you wrote. I read it three or four times before I hit the reply button. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif<hr /></blockquote> I disagree. You very obviously did not understand what I wrote. I doubt you do now. I did not say, imply, or otherwise degrade any player who chooses to play on bar tables. But that's what you had on your mind to begin with, and it clouded your eyes to read something that just wasn't there, and you built an entire argument based on things that I never said. How nice of you.


[ QUOTE ]
I notice you chose to bypass my baseball analogy and I wonder why? <hr /></blockquote> Because it didn't apply. Simple as that. The vast majority of the general public understand the difference between little league and big league. Amateur ball vs. pro ball. Triple A vs. Major League.

The same simply cannot be said about bar pool on a Friday Night vs. championship pool. The vast majority of the general public thinks what they see on Friday Night at 11:30PM from the guy holding the table is what pool's about. Do you truly disagree with this statement? Does anyone?

Snip the rest of the completely irrelevant discussion. The discussion is not about pool players and their attitude toward bar tables, though you seem to keep trying to bring it back to that. It's about the perception of pool to the general public and the 39MM people they inexplicably count as "pool players." Notice I keep putting that in quotes.

Fred &lt;~~~ owns a tavern-sized table

Aboo
10-01-2003, 04:40 PM
Fred, your ego has obviously blinded you to the truth here. I quoted your post and responded to specific issues stated in it.

Your attempt here is to blow smoke and avoid the issue while passive-aggressively attacking my intelligence and reading comprehension skills. That's fine. I'll just continue stating, my opinion. (What we're both doing here actually.)

You continue to go on thinking that every point you make is relevent, but anything that comes out of anyone's keyboard that slightly disagree's with you just doesn't apply to the conversation at hand.

The fact is:
[ QUOTE ]
The discussion is not about pool players and their attitude toward bar tables... <hr /></blockquote>
is bull puckey.

Your first post, and let me quote it again here to remind you:
[ QUOTE ]
... one of the reasons that pool can't go mainstream is because of bar tables. Bar tables make pool available to everyone. It becomes common, run of the mill, and ordinary. The vast majority of the 40MM+ people counted as "pool players" consider bar tables on Friday night as "real pool." <hr /></blockquote>

That is your post, not mine. So, the general publics opinion on bar tables is EXACTLY what you made this argument about sir. That is what I responded to.
Angrily I admit, because I can't see how anyone, can look at your first post and see anything but negative attitude towards bar tables and bar pool in general.

Bar table = making pool available to general public.
Ball Glove = making baseball available to general public.
Football = making football available to general public.
Public Golf course = making golf available to general public.


I still fail to see how that argument "didn't apply."

Simple as that.

Fred Agnir
10-01-2003, 05:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Aboo:</font><hr>

You continue to go on thinking that every point you make is relevent, but anything that comes out of anyone's keyboard that slightly disagree's with you just doesn't apply to the conversation at hand.<hr /></blockquote> Strawman.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Aboo:</font><hr>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred:</font><hr>
The discussion is not about pool players and their attitude toward bar tables... <hr /></blockquote>


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred previously:</font><hr> The vast majority of the 40MM+ people counted as "pool players" consider bar tables on Friday night as "real pool." <hr /></blockquote>

That is your post, not mine. So, the general publics opinion on bar tables is EXACTLY what you made this argument about sir. That is what I responded to. <hr /></blockquote>

Uh... exactly. It's about the general public's perception of pool, not pool player's perception of bar tables. Isn't that exactly what my quoted posts say? See the quotation marks around "pool players"? Do you see the repeated mention of "Friday Night"? Do you not understand when I'm talking about the 39MM players who are counted as "pool players" but have no clue? They are part of the general public. Except, that somehow they get counted as "pool players" by virtue of the sports inquiry that allowed them to be labeled as such on the basis of their sniffing a pool table twice a year, or some such nonsense.

[ QUOTE ]
Angrily I admit, because I can't see how anyone, can look at your first post and see anything but negative attitude towards bar tables and bar pool in general.<hr /></blockquote>
Well, reading the words for what they are should prevent that. Please stop trying to argue against a point that I didn't make.

You continue to misread my posts. I love bar pool. I'm a bar pool player. I've most likely played in more bar table matches then 99.9% of the universe. As my posts quoted show, I wasn't talking about pool player's (real pool players) perception of bar tables. It was about the general publics perception of pool based on Friday Night bar table pool. Do I really need to keep repeating the same thing over and over?

Fred &lt;~~~ doesn't need to blow smoke, when the black and white words will do

Aboo
10-01-2003, 05:08 PM
ROFLMAO - You are just to much man.

Can I get ONE straight answer out of you? What was the "Strawman." comment about?


Aboo &lt;-- Trying to see through the smoke.

Fred Agnir
10-01-2003, 05:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Aboo:</font><hr> ROFLMAO - You are just to much man.<hr /></blockquote>
All this because you jumped the gun, which I explicitly warned against.

[ QUOTE ]
Can I get ONE straight answer out of you<hr /></blockquote> Funny. I've been 100% straight forward with all my answers. All in black in white. It always makes me wonder how anyone getd so offtrack, when the words are still there, still warm.

[ QUOTE ]
What was the "Strawman." comment about? <hr /></blockquote> It's a fallacy debate tactic. Most commonly, it's when one of the debators sets up and argues against a viewpoint that was never a viewpoint or stance of the opponent to begin with. The debator can then proclaim noble victory against the phantom viewpoint (defeating a strawman). It often is accompanied by mocking tones. You unsuccessfully used two or three strawmen.

The biggest of which is:

You put a lot of effort arguing against a point that never pertained to anything I said or believe in. No matter how many times you want to say it, I was never belittling pool players who choose to play bar pool. Your argument is fine. I agree with your argument. But, nobody was arguing against it. You were fighting with a strawman.


[ QUOTE ]
Aboo &lt;-- Trying to see through the smoke. <hr /></blockquote>The only smoke is the smoke you created in your rush to jump on anything that seemed anti-bar player. And in the end, you jumped on bar pool's number one fan.

Fred

Fred Agnir
10-01-2003, 05:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Aboo:</font><hr> Why would I have to jump the gun before reading when you just called every guy that prefers a bar table a no talent banger?

Son of a... I'm going to try REAL hard to stay civil here. In respect for your status in this community.

What exactly is it that your trying to clarify? I can think of a few things you clarified for me, none of which are polite.

Aboo &lt;-- Believes ANY table is a good table and enjoys playing on and watching the game played on them ALL.
<hr /></blockquote>

I invite you to read many of my posts over the past 7 years about bar pool. Tell me if you still think I said something against bar pool players.

Fred's Bar Pool Posts (http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=bar%20pool&amp;safe=images&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;as_uauthors=agnir&amp;lr=&amp;hl=en)

Fred

Qtec
10-01-2003, 08:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
JJ was slow, but IMO, he never crossed the lines of irritation <hr /></blockquote>

Fred, everybody has their own level of tolerance. There was a post on RSB by a guy that walked out on the final because he says it was so boring !
IMO, it must have been pretty bad for someone who has braved the hurricane and shelled out the cash for his seat at the final, to walk out.
There's only so much cue cleaning a guy can take.

Q

[ Anybody who strokes 30 times on every shot IS sharking,IMO ]

Fred Agnir
10-02-2003, 06:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
Fred, everybody has their own level of tolerance. There was a post on RSB by a guy that walked out on the final because he says it was so boring !<hr /></blockquote>

You're right. I'm guessing there's a little more to the story. I mean, if he had nothing else to do, then I can't understand why he would up and leave. I also think that if he had stayed to watch the rest of it, considering how many break and runs JJ had, I don't think he would have made the same post.

I think everyone who stayed would agree that the final match became more and more impressive to watch as the match continued on, with JJ completely dominating the last 8 or so games.

Fred

eg8r
10-02-2003, 06:52 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Archer is brutal with his up and down and up and down. Delicious was also brutal with his near 30 strokes while down. JJ was nowhere near these two.
<hr /></blockquote> Fred, thanks for the clarification.

eg8r

eg8r
10-02-2003, 07:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Is there anything in Tom in Cincy's previous posts that makes you think he was saying that you wouldn't have appreciated it if you were there? I don't see that.
<hr /></blockquote> Wow, Fred, you are on a rampage today. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Take your own advice and read everything before you fire away.

eg8r

eg8r
10-02-2003, 07:05 AM
Awww, you are missing all the fun. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif After watching Ken play the first time, I had to ask why he shoots so funny. He told me he shoots similar to Keith. I had never seen Keith play, so Ken loaned me his Accu-Stats tape of Keith. When I returned the tape, I told Ken he does most everything like Keith. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif He is constantly chatting, joking and prodding his opponent. None of which bothers me, and actually I enjoyed it every time (except when he was mean, and I posted that on the board once /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

eg8r

RedHell
10-02-2003, 07:30 AM
Fred,

The thread might have kept going on, Last time I read it, Jennie was saying goodbye. The way Jimbo went on the subject was nowhere near praises. It's easy to diminish someone's behaviour while trying to compliment some other side of their personality to say it wasn't rude. What I read was damn rude.

I will admit that many posters said they enjoyed her visit and wish she wouldn't leave. But at think at that point the bad was done. And as usual, it is always a minority that drive people away from a NG. How did it finnish, has she come back ?

Fred Agnir
10-02-2003, 07:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred:</font><hr>Is there anything in Tom in Cincy's previous posts that makes you think he was saying that you wouldn't have appreciated it if you were there? I don't see that.
<hr /></blockquote> Wow, Fred, you are on a rampage today. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Take your own advice and read everything before you fire away.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>Did I fire away? I did read everything. And I see how Tom was trying to explain to you what he said, even though IMO, what he said was already clear. IMO, you read him to say something that he didn't say. So, any of his explanation didn't really make sense to you, and mostly just made things worse. That's how the flavor of the follow-up posts read.

Again, I'm not firing away. I'm asking. Did you read something that in Tom's post that says or even implies anything about you or any other CCBer and the ability to appreciated JJ's tactics? As I said, I didn't read anything that suggested that, but it seems that you did. And it's obvious from the way Tom has responded, that he didn't suggest that notion either.

Take chess, amateur wrestling, bowling, and one-pocket. To an outsider or even a casual fan, all can be boring to the point of irritation to watch. It may be at the most boring times, only a true fan could appreciate the tactics involved. I certainly think that's a fair statement, and that's how I read Tom's post. There's no mention of anyone in particular, no singling out, and no narrow minded holier-than-though inclinations. Hell, even to a true fan, all of the above can be boring to the point of irritation at times. But, the tactics are still appreciated.

Fred

Fred Agnir
10-02-2003, 07:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> Fred,

The thread might have kept going on, Last time I read it, Jennie was saying goodbye. The way Jimbo went on the subject was nowhere near praises. It's easy to diminish someone's behaviour while trying to compliment some other side of their personality to say it wasn't rude. What I read was damn rude. <hr /></blockquote>In no way am I defending JimBo. But, if you read the entire posts, one of the posters jumped the gun with insults without really reading the post. It must be contagious. What happens is that if a post hints at negativity towards a person's hot button, that person will go wild on a post. Even though the black and white print says something different. In this case, the hot button was saying that a certain professional player often acts like a dickhead.

Anyway, if someone includes words like "monkey boy" and other third grade name-calling, while never once addressing the issue at hand (i.e., whether or not anyone on the newsgroups is truly sucker-punching professional pool players) then is it your belief that the person being called "monkey boy, bimbo, etc." should answer back in a nicey-nice way? Communication is a two-way street.

Fred

RedHell
10-02-2003, 07:54 AM
Now I'm going to have to go back and re-read all this. But in essence I agree with you. People get irritated to quickly and retaliate often to hard as well. This is somewhat part of the reason I stay away from RSB (that and the fact that google post takes 4 hours to appear), for some reason many thread turns into a pissing contest, after a while it gets boring.

I sure prefer the comfort of CCB. I know that not all RSBers are like this, but there's a certain crowd that stands out and stains the other valuable posters.

Fred Agnir
10-02-2003, 07:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> I sure prefer the comfort of CCB. I know that not all RSBers are like this, but there's a certain crowd that stands out and stains the other valuable posters. <hr /></blockquote> Of course, since this is the internet, every RSBer has access to the CCBoard. They lurk; they post.

Fred

RedHell
10-02-2003, 08:04 AM
What ? Are you saying we're getting only the good crowd here ? I never figured it why, but for some reason CCB is more civilised than RSB, maybe because it is moderated.

Tho I can only remember the Corey Duel's partner thread that required censorship !

Rich R.
10-02-2003, 08:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr>Chatterbox's {in my opinion} have no place in a tournament. Just because a man/woman babbles between racks doesnt mean EVERYONE is between racks. Sigel was notorious for that and Earl does his share of crowd-chatter, I'm a believer of silent but deadly ala Varner, Reyes and the countless others that barely utter a word!! <hr /></blockquote>
I find this response a little strange, since you have always voiced your support for Earl. IMHO, Earl is a much worse offender than Keith. Earl not only talks and gets loud, when his opponent is at the table, he get nasty and obnoxious.

Rich R.
10-02-2003, 08:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Your comment about dealing with the same distractions in a pool room isn't exactly the case either, because if two pros decided to match up in a pool room to play, the players around them would give them courtesy. In many cases, the room would keep the tables on either side empty and the crowd gathering around would stay pretty quiet. I imagine there are some players who don't mind matching up next to a table with other players carrying on and talking, but you'd be hard pressed to find top players doing that in any pool room.<hr /></blockquote>
Fran, this may be the case in your neighborhood, but not in mine. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif
The room owners try to fill tables. For the most part, they don't care who is playing and who is next to them. Two pros could be playing and the room owner would put groups of 6 bangers on both sides of them. In addition to that, the pros would have to deal with an extremely loud jukebox.
In this respect, you should be very happy with your neighborhood.
We don't all have the benefit of knowledgeable and caring room owners.

Fran Crimi
10-02-2003, 09:30 AM
Rich, the rooms you describe exist all over the country. But tell me this: Have you ever seen two top players match up for big money in a room with the juke box blaring and people carrying on on tables next to them?

My whole point is that the room either will accomodate them or they will go somewhere else. They will not play under those conditions, so why should they play under those conditions in a pro tournament?

I think the problem is that you guys think that the pros should be better at warding off distractions because they're pros. The problem with that line of thought is that the opposite is true. They're actually more sensitive to distractions because of the level of their play and the intensity that is needed to maintain that level.

Fran

eg8r
10-02-2003, 10:23 AM
Yup, I felt you were firing away (that is why I said it). However, in response to your question, here was my reply to Tom... [ QUOTE ]
Those ideas whether spoken or kept quiet do not change the fact that I am a pool fan. I see you were not implying that, so I am sorry for suggesting you were.
<hr /></blockquote>

I had misread his post and thought he was saying only a true fan would be someone with years of watching pros play (i am included here) and being able to watch the finals of the open (I am not included).

eg8r

9 Ball Girl
10-02-2003, 11:07 AM
Forgive me for my ignorance and although it is a different sport, I believe the same thing holds true for golf as well. Everyone is quiet while the Pro is taking his shot (I don't even know if that's what it's referred to) and you don't hear a word or see movement from the crowd.

RedHell
10-02-2003, 11:38 AM
True and false. When Tiger is putting in a 35 footers on the green next to your tee off, you have to cope with the crowd going balistic. Plus in your mind, if you're chasing him or being chase by him, you start thinking that he might have eagled the last one, or is it birdie ???? All that questionning will impair your game.

A pro golf player must learn to put those aside.

If you wanna see the mind power at its best. Look at Tiger Woods. If you watch him in tourney he's sourounded by crowd and cams. This guy can hold his swing after he as pulled the trigger if a sound distract him. What I mean by that is, his back swing is completed and his club has already started accelarating for the shot, a cam will click in the crowd and he manages to stop the swing.

Even if that would be a sign of weakness, because he gets disturbed by a click, I see it as a great mental power. He can stop when he realises he's been put off. The thing is after that, he will regroup and play the perfect shot.

So for a pool player getting distracted is normal. I wouldn't think that anyone can actually completely block those. But I believe the true pro performer will be able to regroup and not let those affect his game.

Fran Crimi
10-02-2003, 11:49 AM
I have to respectfully disagree. Tiger struggles with all that. There are times when he is able to stop his swing and there are times I've seen him not be able to stop his swing. But on both occasions he looks in the direction of the distraction with daggers in his eyes. He's pissed as hell. I've seen him go off on quite a few occasions when he was struggling with his game and trying to get his act together. That's the time the player really needs to focus the most and that's the time that distractions really affect the player. He's very affected by all of that.

Fran

wolfdancer
10-02-2003, 05:00 PM
"He who angers you, conquers you"...Elizabeth Kenny

Rich R.
10-02-2003, 06:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Rich, the rooms you describe exist all over the country. But tell me this: Have you ever seen two top players match up for big money in a room with the juke box blaring and people carrying on on tables next to them?
<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue">Fran I can't say that I have seen a big money match up, under those conditions. However, since I started playing again, a couple of years ago, I honestly don't spend a lot of time in the pool rooms, unless I'm playing or attending a tournament.
I can say that, on many occasions, I have been watching regional tournaments, with some very respected players, and the jukebox starts up and continues at very high levels. As soon as tables are no longer being used for the tournaments, the room managers start filling them on a first come, first served basis, sometimes right next to tournament tables. It is not a good situation.</font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
My whole point is that the room either will accomodate them or they will go somewhere else. They will not play under those conditions, so why should they play under those conditions in a pro tournament? <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue">Most of the room owners/managers, I have seen in this area, have no idea who the real players are and would just assume they were just done playing. There is a good chance, the players would run into the same conditions, at the next room up the road.</font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
I think the problem is that you guys think that the pros should be better at warding off distractions because they're pros. The problem with that line of thought is that the opposite is true. They're actually more sensitive to distractions because of the level of their play and the intensity that is needed to maintain that level.<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue"> I don't believe the pro players should be able to perform under the extreme conditions I have been talking about. However, I do believe any player, while in the chair, should be able to tolerate their opponent talking during their own time at the table. That was my original point and I have to stand by it. JMHO.</font color>

Fran Crimi
10-02-2003, 07:20 PM
OK, Rich. Let me tell you about the players sitting in the chair while their opponent is going on and on during his turn at the table. Did you know that I can't tell you how many of those players wanted to punch out the guy after the match was over? No, you don't know that because you aren't privy to that kind of stuff. I was privy to that for over 20 years that I've been in the arena with them. I know exactly what they were going through in the chair and how they felt about it afterwards, and I can tell you, it sharked them to the point of extreme anger. In fact, my friend Gene Nagy told me a story about a tournament years ago when the guy in the chair got up and punched his opponent for carrying on right in the middle of the match. If I remember correctly, I think he said it was Boston Shorty who got up and sucker punched his oppponent and said something like, "Maybe now you'll shut up and play." The ref cleaned up the blood and they eventually continued the match.

I'm trying to share a lot of years of experience here with you, but if you refuse to believe it, and you think you know more about this than I do, then more power to you!

Fran

Fran Crimi
10-02-2003, 07:33 PM
Jack, are you guys living in La-la land? I mean, really, those saying are great but give me a nickel for everyone who is capable of following that advice and I'll be in the poor house in no time.

Do you follow that advice?

OK getting serious for a minute: Did you know that according to sports psychologists, getting angry during a match can fire up a player to get them back in the match? The issue is how you manage your anger to use it to your advantage. Some people let it out, like McEnroe and Conners used to, others internalize it, like Steffi Graf, but it's there and they use it to their advantage.

Fran

wolfdancer
10-02-2003, 10:43 PM
Actually I had this mental image of Keith, being Keith, having a good time and playing to the crowd...and p.o. the other guy in the process...and the saying fit that.
I got a checkpoint list of about 200 things that irritate me during a match, and the list keeps growing.
Yeah, anger can get the juices flowing; and can be used to an advantage by some, but for some of us, we might as well unscrew out cues...

Ralph S.
10-02-2003, 11:45 PM
Fran, would you give us a definition of big money? I have seen top locals and roadies hook up for four and five hundred a set and also seen mega money matches at major pool events like DCC. To many people, fifty bucks is big money. I have witnessed this in all different types of environments from the corner bar to the local pool hall to the big ballrooms of these major events.

Ralph S.
10-03-2003, 12:03 AM
Now that I have finished reading all the posts in response to the initial one, I will give my view point. No, I have not personally seen the match{es} in question. However, from the description of the events in question from all sides, including the main participant in question, I dont see it as all bad.

Maybe it continued past a point that it should not have reached, but that is what rules are for. The bottom line IMO, is that there simply was not a rule in place to prevent this. Maybe there will be rule for a situation like this in the future.

As for KM, I personally like his banter and charisma he brings to the game. Also, there isnt anything wrong with doing what ever you can within the rules to gain an advantage. In this case there was no rule.

Jimmy B
10-03-2003, 03:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I'm not a big fan of talking during a match, even if the player is talking only on their shot. It's just not right.


Great post Fran, I wasn't going to post to this thread because I am somewhat to blame for the topic, but I find it funny that the person who plays in high-level tournaments agrees with my views. I love KM and I love his act, I just think it's not right and it's a lack of respect for the person he's playing and the game. I don't think the game needs to be played in a church, but I also don't think running your mouth needs to be part of the match. If we draw a parallel to golf like we do so often here. I'd say look at the jump in viewers golf gained with Tiger, and if you look at Tiger I doubt you'll find anyone who is more intense and quiet during his play, he's not running around talking trash and being outrageous. As a matter of fact getting Tiger to show any personality in an interview is close to impossible, the guy never says or does anything controversial, yet when he's not in an event the ratings drop in half. I don't think what pool needs is to promote bad manors or to change the game. Look at how big poker has become over the last 6 months, those guys hardly talk at all, some sit their hide their faces, wear hats, big dark glasses and even head phones. I don't have the answer for pool, but if playing in the dark with those stupid black lights and neon balls were it I wouldn't want the sport to go mainstream. Talking has always been sharking where I come from and it will always be, I like KM and glad he did so well, but I am 100% sure that his act is more then just him being him, he knows it's a move. I also think slow play is a move, but IMO it's a move that shows a bit more class and respect, and I'm sure some people need to do it to play their best. JB

Qtec
10-03-2003, 04:26 AM
Last night I played in a house tournament[ 8ball] and in the fisrt round[ Bo5]I was playing a good womens player. I think she plays for the Dutch ladies team. Any way, she was good. She had a run of 6, a run of 5 and a run-out but I am ahead 2-1. The next rack I scratched and she is down to the 8, straight shot using the rest.
I wasnt even looking, I had already taken for granted that she would pot it. She missed and left it 5 inches from the pocket, I cant miss.
Problem was , I didnt see it and got the triangle out to rack the balls.
"You have conceded the rack" she calls, with a huge grin on her face,"unlucky" .
I wasnt pleased about it, but I accepted it and fortunately ran out to win 3-2.

Ok, next match. This guy was something else. He is walking around when I am taking my shot. Next, he is hanging over the pocket, so much so that his head is almost directly above the white.
I had had enough , so I ask him not to stand in my line of shot.
What does he do? He stands to my immediate left [ I am right-handed] still in view. I play on, but I am starting to get mad.
Its 1-1 ,I am shooting on the long 8 and the guy gets the rack out and puts it on the table. I stand up and ask him if he is conceding. "No" he says "shoot".
I could have claimed the match but I didnt and hit the 8 so hard it came back out the pocket.

Now I was mad. LOL [ I can laugh about it now.]I won.3-1

This guy was sharking and I didnt like it.I let it get to me. So much so that it was only when I was 3-0 down in the quarters that I was able to calm down.

I dont see any of the other better players do this. They dont need to . Its the ones who cant play that try to put you off your game because thats the only way they can win.

I was more disappointed with the woman player. She should have conceded rather than claim a frame that she had really already lost.
I felt that she was unsporting. I dont believe in winning at all costs.

I was soooooooo determined to win that last rack. LOL

Q .&gt;needs to play more.

Rich R.
10-03-2003, 05:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I'm trying to share a lot of years of experience here with you, but if you refuse to believe it, and you think you know more about this than I do, then more power to you! <hr /></blockquote>
Fran, I do not dispute your years of experience and I believe every word you are saying. We all have experience, to different degrees and under different circumstances. I have not, and never will, say that I know more about this than you, or any one else.
I just happen to disagree with you, and some others. I thought the purpose of the forum was to discuss issues, like these, and get a variety of opinions and points of view. I don't believe we all have to agree all of the time.

I'm done with this issue. Have a nice day.

DoomCue
10-03-2003, 06:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph S.:</font><hr> *SNIP*
Maybe it continued past a point that it should not have reached, but that is what rules are for. The bottom line IMO, is that there simply was not a rule in place to prevent this. Maybe there will be rule for a situation like this in the future.

As for KM, I personally like his banter and charisma he brings to the game. Also, there isnt anything wrong with doing what ever you can within the rules to gain an advantage. In this case there was no rule. <hr /></blockquote>

I must admit, I enjoyed Keith's banter during the match; I was sitting there laughing and clapping right along with everyone else. I was so close I could've reached out and touched Alex when he missed that 2 ball in the hill-hill game. Upon retrospect, however, I can definitely see how Keith's banter could get under a player's skin. I don't think it's necessary for a rule to be enacted, however. Do we really need a rule to legislate respect for the other player? Do we have to define "Sportsmanship" in the rule book? Makes me think about those car commercials that have a tag line, "Professional driver on a closed course, do not attempt." Does that tag line REALLY need to be there? Don't we know not to race down a mountain at 100 mph? How 'bout the "Contents may be hot" label on styrofoam coffee cups? Establishments who serve hot drinks to go have to protect themselves from litigious individuals who use rules (in this case, lack of rules) to their advantage - to the detriment of those of who actually have common sense (cost gets passed to us). Why aren't those labels on regular coffee cups in restaurants? Because it's common sense there's something hot in that cup. Shouldn't that extend to styrofoam cups, too? Does the type of cup really matter? How far do we as a society need to degrade before integrity and honor come back to the forefront, instead of the "do whatever it takes to win money" mentality? There is an unwritten rule which says you don't talk to the other player during a match. Using that unwritten rule, I could walk up to the table, muttering various expletives, like, "That lucky MF, can't believe he left me this SH*T, I'd like to stuff a pool cue up his A$$," and suffer no consequences because I wasn't talking to the other player, only to myself. Does that mean it's ok to do it, even if the other player can hear me? By strict adherence to the unwritten rule, absolutely, it's ok. Does that mean it's RIGHT to do that? Hell no. I personally would never do something like that because it shows disrespect to the other player, and I wouldn't want to put myself in a position where someone could possibly think I was trying to shark another player, even if I wasn't trying to do so.

Sorry, I got off on a little rant there. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

It bothers me that something like this generates a response saying we need more rules in place, when there's already someone in place to take care of incidents like KM's matches at the Open: the Tournament Director. It was at Scott Smith's discretion whether or not to ask Keith to tone it down, and Scott chose not to do so. Do I disagree with that decision? Sure. But it was a judgment call on his part, and I'm not one to say that Scott Smith does a bad job (I think he does a fantastic job). I don't think we need to add more rules to take those kinds of decisions out of his hands. Fact is, the crowd LOVED Keith's antics, which probably influenced Scott's non-action. Plus, Alex didn't complain. However, Johnny did (remember, he was on the table next to them), so that's why I think Scott should have said something to Keith. His antics may not have affected Alex, but they did have an affect on others.

-djb

Fran Crimi
10-03-2003, 07:07 AM
Ralph, I consider big money anything that makes you sweat. For top players is usually means a few hundred and up. For lesser players it could mean less. Depends.

Fran

Fran Crimi
10-03-2003, 07:29 AM
Rich, just so you know, I'm not trying to make you angry or antagonize you. I'm just trying to dispel some of the rumors about how people think that pros are supposed to act and feel.

Efren Reyes never says a word when he plays, yet there's standing room only whenever he plays a match. I really hate to see the spectators get suckered in by someone acting out during their match and being deceived into thinking that it's okay to act that way. It's not.

You have a nice day too.

Fran

Fran Crimi
10-03-2003, 08:07 AM
Doom, I think what you're saying is true. Why do we have to have rules about the obvious? I think the occasions where players act up are rare and if they're addressed properly as unsportsmanlike conduct, there shouldn't have to be any more rules than that.

BTW, I'm sure you know that just because Alex didn't say anything, it doesn't mean he wasn't bothered by what was going on. When something like that happens, it puts the players in a very difficult position and sometimes it's better for them to try to stay quiet and hang in there rather than make it worse for themselves by drawing more attention to it. It's a tough call and one that none of the players likes to have to deal with, not to mention that it's something they shouldn't have to be facing in the first place.

Johnny,on the other hand, felt okay about saying something. I have to give him credit because it's tough to do and then be able to get back to your game and try to focus.

Fran

RedHell
10-03-2003, 08:08 AM
Fran, I think you are agreeing with me on this.

[ QUOTE ]
There are times when he is able to stop his swing and there are times I've seen him not be able to stop his swing. <hr /></blockquote>

We agree on this, but I was making reference to when he's able to stop his swing and play a great shot afterward. It's not always, hence the struggle, but in my oppinion that's the moment he's in the perfect state of mind (or in the zone) to master his game.

[ QUOTE ]
That's the time the player really needs to focus the most and that's the time that distractions really affect the player <hr /></blockquote>

I start to sound like the chicken and the egg, wich came first ? The distraction or the lost of focus wich allow a player to get distracted ?

In my case, if I'm out of focus I get easily distracted, but if I'm focus I think even and Earthquake couldn't disturb me (pun intended).

Fran Crimi
10-03-2003, 08:26 AM
True. I wholeheartedly agree that if you're struggling, you're going to feel the distractions more. But the nature of competition is that in between zoning out and feeling nothing but you and the table, there are pockets of nervousness and tension. That's a given, and what the pros are so good at, is mustering up the intensity needed to keep their level of play high through those pockets of tension. That mustering up of intensity under such competitive conditions requires tremendous concentration, and they are entitiled to a reasonable and fair environment in order to be able to accomplish that.

And believe it or not, a lot of the hardest mental work is done when the player is sitting in the chair, just like in golf as the player is walking to his shot. Same thing.

Fran

RedHell
10-03-2003, 08:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
they are entitiled to a reasonable and fair environment in order to be able to accomplish that.
<hr /></blockquote>

So the debate remains, what is reasonable and fair environment ?

The line is hard to draw, we can't based this judgement only on the fact that it disturs your opponent. Because it can than be used by your opponent against you, i.e. just complaining to the TD to get him to warn you and put you off. How do we draw the line ?

Fred Agnir
10-03-2003, 09:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> The line is hard to draw, we can't based this judgement only on the fact that it disturs your opponent. Because it can than be used by your opponent against you, i.e. just complaining to the TD to get him to warn you and put you off. How do we draw the line ? <hr /></blockquote>

If the action or actions result in an internet post that has over 1000 views and 100 replies, then the line has been crossed.

Hope this helps,

Fred

RedHell
10-03-2003, 09:36 AM
Ah c'mon Fred, this is like saying that because the news paper printed stuff about the Coby Brian court case that he's guilty !!!

The amount posts is related to the divergence of opinions and interest in the subject, not the event themselve !

Voodoo Daddy
10-03-2003, 10:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> I find this response a little strange, since you have always voiced your support for Earl.

I do/will always support Earl because I like him as a person and a player. That doesnt mean I condone his mouth, nor did I condone McEnroe, Trevino etc...The deal there is all of them back it up!!

IMHO, Earl is a much worse offender than Keith. Earl not only talks and gets loud, when his opponent is at the table, he get nasty and obnoxious.

Well Rich...you feed your horse and I'll feed mine /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

I do root for Earl...and will never apologize for that

NBC-BOB
10-03-2003, 11:00 AM
I don't think that a player that takes a long time at the table is sharking.Although I will say that over the year's I have found it annoying when it's happened to me, but then I feel it's my problem and not my opponent's.As long as my opponent is not talking, when I'm shooting then I don't have a problem, with him talking.I have played people over the year's that,have a particular style about them, that I find annoying, and generally, if that's the case I just don't play them anymore.

Danny D
10-03-2003, 11:41 AM
Dont your eyes hurt? This is what back room players do when they get out under the lights, the pressure is too much for them and they wilt, old story. Only true winners and champions play well, under the lights.

Qtec
10-03-2003, 12:31 PM
Bob,can you honestly say that a pro pool player NEEDS to take 2 or 3 minutes over evry shot? Does that not have an effect on the opponent?

Just because its his shot, doesnt mean he can take all day about it.

If you have sweaty hands, wear a glove.

There must always be a limit.

Qtec

plato 17
10-03-2003, 12:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Bob,can you honestly say that a pro pool player NEEDS to take 2 or 3 minutes over evry shot? Does that not have an effect on the opponent?

Just because its his shot, doesnt mean he can take all day about it.

If you have sweaty hands, wear a glove.

There must always be a limit.

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

There are slow players, Dave Matlock puts me to sleep, but that is his pace. Anyone taking 2 or 3 minutes per shot is doing nothing but sharking the opponent and trashing the pace of the event. That is why you must have a 60 second shot clock on every player, that only gets activated when a complaint is registered. Everytime he goes over 60 seconds, call a foul and give the opponent cue ball in hand, that will light a fire under him.

Frank Taberski was the first great pool champion and he could play fast like a cat if he had to but his normal style was more Buddy Hall like, slow and deliberate, but not too slow. When the young and hot tempered Ralph Greenleaf came on the scene and began to defeat him, he would take 5 minutes thinking about a shot, it would send Ralph either into a coma or he would go off half crazy. Either way, it worked and he beat him using this shark. It is too bad any one would stoop so low to employ such a method. Golf will put a stop watch on any player who is deemed playing at a pace less than the pack. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Alfie
10-03-2003, 01:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> Talking has always been sharking where I come from and it will always be, I like KM and glad he did so well, but I am 100% sure that his act is more then just him being him, he knows it's a move. <hr /></blockquote>Right on, brother.

Fred Agnir
10-03-2003, 01:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote plato 17:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Bob,can you honestly say that a pro pool player NEEDS to take 2 or 3 minutes over evry shot?
If you have sweaty hands, wear a glove.

There must always be a limit.

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

There are slow players, Dave Matlock puts me to sleep, but that is his pace. Anyone taking 2 or 3 minutes per shot is doing nothing but sharking the opponent and trashing the pace of the event. That is why you must have a 60 second shot clock on every player, that only gets activated when a complaint is registered. <hr /></blockquote>
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but as methodical as Jeremy was, I don't think he would have had any problem with a 60 second shot clock given his pace. Sweaty hands and all.

A 45 second clock on the other hand, he pushed that every time.

Fred

RedHell
10-03-2003, 01:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote plato 17:</font><hr>
That is why you must have a 60 second shot clock on every player, that only gets activated when a complaint is registered. Everytime he goes over 60 seconds, call a foul and give the opponent cue ball in hand, that will light a fire under him.

<font color="blue"> This is exactly what I advocate... </font color>

Golf will put a stop watch on any player who is deemed playing at a pace less than the pack. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <hr /></blockquote>

To be precise I believe the stop watch is put on the group itself, not a particular player... I could be wrong tho...

RedHell
10-03-2003, 01:43 PM
Fred,

I haven't seen the game, but if JJ was playing under the minute every time, it is slow, but definetely not sharking slow !

Kato
10-03-2003, 01:51 PM
Fred you are right. Sure Jeremy went to the towel and powder after almost every shot but once he got down on the ball he was firing.

Kato~~~just fires and then sits down.

Alfie
10-03-2003, 01:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Doom, I think what you're saying is true. Why do we have to have rules about the obvious? I think the occasions where players act up are rare and if they're addressed properly as unsportsmanlike conduct, there shouldn't have to be any more rules than that. <hr /></blockquote>I agree with Mr. DoomCue and Ms. Crimi.

Could it be KM (we're talking about KM, right?) was allowed to go on and on for the sake of "good television" (at the expense of good pool?)? Is pro pool on a slide to a biweekly "pool smackdown" in an attempt to gratify the mob?

What do you say, mob?

Whatever the mob says I hope everyone gets what he wants. As for me, I want no smackdown, no sharking.

9 Ball Road Pro
10-03-2003, 02:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> Talking has always been sharking where I come from and it will always be, I like KM and glad he did so well, but I am 100% sure that his act is more then just him being him, he knows it's a move. <hr /></blockquote>Right on, brother. <hr /></blockquote>

I'll be happy to comment on this, of course it is a move, any time you are yappin at your opponent, your aim is to distract him and to interrupt his concentration, that is sharking. A lot of people would only play or offer to Gamble with Minnesota Fats if he would play with his mouth shut, if he talked, he gave up the stake, Fats would never take the deal, because his mouth was his greatest weapon, never was it his cue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

RedHell
10-03-2003, 02:04 PM
Of all this, I'm still not convinced that it was sharking. To be sharking, one must do it to gain advantage in the game and do it to annoy his opponent and put him off.

Can anyone here be sure KM had the intent, specaily after coming here and explain it to us ?

Alfie
10-03-2003, 02:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote NBC-BOB:</font><hr> I have played people over the year's that,have a particular style about them, that I find annoying, and generally, if that's the case I just don't play them anymore. <hr /></blockquote>Players in tournaments don't have that luxury.

Alfie
10-03-2003, 02:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote plato 17:</font><hr>
Golf will put a stop watch on any player who is deemed playing at a pace less than the pack. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <hr /></blockquote>

To be precise I believe the stop watch is put on the group itself, not a particular player... I could be wrong tho... <hr /></blockquote>That's how it works, e.g., see rule 1.11 SLOW PLAY in the WPA rules.
http://www.wpa-pool.com/rules1.htm
Of course Behrman does not sanction with anyone, and he can use whatever rules he wants.

Jimmy B
10-03-2003, 02:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> I myself can go either way I'm so zoned out that even a naked guy wouldn't distract me.

Well, since you put it like this, would a naked girl distract you?? I wish I knew about the either way thing at the open, it might have made for a better weekend.;-) JB

RedHell
10-03-2003, 02:32 PM
Well considering the fact that she can go either way, I guess a naked girl could, but not when she's in the zone ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

9 Ball Girl
10-03-2003, 02:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> I myself can go either way I'm so zoned out that even a naked guy wouldn't distract me.

Well, since you put it like this, would a naked girl distract you?? I wish I knew about the either way thing at the open, it might have made for a better weekend.;-) JB <hr /></blockquote>A naked chick? I'd probably just give her a 9.5 /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Jimmy B
10-03-2003, 02:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Aboo:</font><hr> Honestly, all of these "isms" sound like something anyone of us here might say to their friends and/or opponents at the local pool-hall.

Are you serious?? You don't even get the Irony here? The fact is this wasn't you or I and it wasn't at the local pool hall, it's the US Open, things done at the local pool hall shouldn't be done at this event, no matter what. You can't compare the two. JB

Alfie
10-03-2003, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> I haven't seen the game, but if JJ was playing under the minute every time, it is slow, but definetely not sharking slow! <hr /></blockquote>Yes, but is it fast enough for "good television"?

What do you say, mob? A 30 second clock? 25 seconds? Less?

Don't want to put the TV audience to sleep.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

RedHell
10-03-2003, 02:52 PM
Women play under the 30 seconds shot clock, and I think it sometimes lower the quality of play. Having only one extension per game, if they get to 2 tough shots in the same game, they will rush the second one and often miss.

1 minute is enough, no extension... Slow game, so be it, edit the match.

Alfie
10-03-2003, 03:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> Women play under the 30 seconds shot clock, [...] <hr /></blockquote>It just ain't the same if ya gotta explain 'em.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Tom_In_Cincy
10-03-2003, 03:17 PM
"and what do you post by?"
JimboCT... Oh, I know you.. I've got you blocked..

8 ball ho
10-03-2003, 04:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> I myself can go either way I'm so zoned out that even a naked guy wouldn't distract me.

Well, since you put it like this, would a naked girl distract you?? I wish I knew about the either way thing at the open, it might have made for a better weekend.;-) JB <hr /></blockquote>

Jimmy Jimmy, the reason you boys can't play pool worth a flip is you only have two things on your dirty little minds, getting us chicks naked, then drinking a beer. When you boys make love to me it's over in 60 seconds, then why can't you get off a straight in shot on the 9 ball in 60 seconds as well, why does does that take longer than it takes you to make love, if you call these slam bam things making love. Jimmy, divers do it deeper. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran Crimi
10-04-2003, 07:43 AM
Well, that's a good question but the pros know where the line is. I think that for the most part, so do the pro tournament TD's. An occasional comment or animated response by a player isn't generally a problem. It's when it becomes continuous that it becomes sharking, and anyone who plays in the pro arena knows that, especially the player doing the sharking. Sure, the player can get caught up in that whole carrying on thing, but they still know better. The bottom line is that they just didn't care at the time. That's unacceptable in a professional event.

I have no idea why a TD wouldn't act in that situation. I hope that doesn't happen again.

Fran

Jimmy B
10-04-2003, 11:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 8 ball ho:</font><hr> When you boys make love to me it's over in 60 seconds,


I can't speak for anyone else, but when I make love I'm on a shot clock, I'd hate to have anyone walk out on me.

JB

plato 17
10-04-2003, 05:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> I myself can go either way I'm so zoned out that even a naked guy wouldn't distract me.

Well, since you put it like this, would a naked girl distract you?? I wish I knew about the either way thing at the open, it might have made for a better weekend.;-) JB <hr /></blockquote>A naked chick? I'd probably just give her a 9.5 /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>


Perhaps what might save pool and bring it back into prime time would be running a match right behind the new hit show queer eye, and feature Buddy Hall playing Jeanette Lee a race to 12 with both stark Naked. I can just see it now, buddy is bending over the table and the camera comes up behind him and yo baby, Lee streteched out on the table for a long shot, we would have to have 3 cameras on that one, over head, behind and in front. It would sweep all of the ratings. They have tried every thing else on earth and cannot draw flies, so I say, play naked. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jimmy B
10-05-2003, 02:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> [ <hr /></blockquote>A naked chick? I'd probably just give her a 9.5 /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

You always were a low scorerer, everyone knows the ring card girl was a 10 and when I got her to... O wait I don't want to be sensored here, but Fred knows what I got her to do and I'm still smilin over it :-))))))) JB /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

MikeM
10-05-2003, 06:49 AM
It's very entertaining though. And that's part of why the fans pay their money - to be entertained.

MM

MikeM
10-05-2003, 06:52 AM
Amen and well said Carol!

MM

MikeM
10-05-2003, 06:57 AM
Anyone who's been to Q Masters during US Open week knows that it's bull that top players don't hook up for big money in a noisy environment. Actually it's a downright rowdy environment.

MM

9 Ball Girl
10-05-2003, 08:24 AM
Well somebody had to hold the 9.5 card! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Fran Crimi
10-05-2003, 09:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MikeM:</font><hr> It's very entertaining though. And that's part of why the fans pay their money - to be entertained.

MM <hr /></blockquote>

Holy somokes. Do you have ANY idea what it takes to play great pool under the pressure of professional competition and in front of hundreds of people?

Any idea at all?

AND you want us to entertain you with side shows while we're doing it?

Anything else while you're at it? Maybe a little tap dance between racks?

Sheesh.

OK, I'm being a little sarcastic /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif but really, Mike, if you want to see great pool, you can't expect side shows to go along with it. It's a rarity and when it does happen it's very disrupting to the other players.

Can't you just settle for paying your money to see great pool?

Fran

rackmup
10-05-2003, 09:19 AM
Perhaps what might save pool and bring it back into prime time would be running a match right behind the new hit show queer eye, and feature "Fast" Larry Guninger playing Wonder Dog a race to 12 with Guninger having his mouth duct-taped shut and Max, The Wonder Dog, chewing on his ankle. I can just see it now, Larry is bending over, his mouth straining against the binding qualities of the tape, hoping to break free and boast of imaginative World Titles, just as the camera comes up behind him and yo baby, Max grabs him by his sagging butt. We would have to have 3 cameras on that one, over head, behind and in front. It would sweep all of the ratings. They have tried every thing else on earth and cannot draw flies, so I say, let an old man play a more talented beagle.

Sorry...couldn't resist.

Ken (can't keep quiet all of the time)

10-05-2003, 10:04 AM

Voodoo Daddy
10-05-2003, 10:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Anything else while you're at it? Maybe a little tap dance between racks? Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I'm partial to Salsa but I'll settle for a lil tap!!

Voodoo~~~would pay an extra fee to watch pool players Salsa!!

Alfie
10-05-2003, 12:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr> [...] <hr /></blockquote>Oh, obsessed one, don't YOU ever get tired of chewing on FL's ankle?

Get unstuck and move on, IMO.

plato 17
10-05-2003, 01:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr> Perhaps what might save pool and bring it back into prime time would be running a match right behind the new hit show queer eye, and feature "Fast" Larry Guninger playing Wonder Dog a race to 12 with Guninger having his mouth duct-taped shut and Max, The Wonder Dog, chewing on his ankle. I can just see it now, Larry is bending over, his mouth straining against the binding qualities of the tape, hoping to break free and boast of imaginative World Titles, just as the camera comes up behind him and yo baby, Max grabs him by his sagging butt. We would have to have 3 cameras on that one, over head, behind and in front. It would sweep all of the ratings. They have tried every thing else on earth and cannot draw flies, so I say, let an old man play a more talented beagle.

Sorry...couldn't resist.

Ken (can't keep quiet all of the time) <hr /></blockquote>


To Ken Kingman of Mansfiled, tx, like I just said, 1900 posts, examine them, this one is typical, what does it have to do with talking about pool. This is nothing but his typical attack on some one. Why is he permitted to do this and get by with it? FL is no longer posting on this board and this manaic is still attacking him. He must be now angy because his love affair between him and wally leaked out, or he is the one posting under all of those false wolf names. He is even creating new names and making false posts using fl's name and former sign off framing the guy on another board. You think it is fl making the post, it shows his name, but it's rack em up setting him up. He cuts and pastes, adds stuff in to frame people. People, this man is dangerous, sick, demented, twisted, evil and should be avoided. See him for what he is, nothing but a internet crazy and board stalker. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

rackmup
10-05-2003, 01:38 PM
Sorry...I will never tire.

Regards,

Ken

plato 17
10-05-2003, 01:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr> [...] <hr /></blockquote>Oh, obsessed one, don't YOU ever get tired of chewing on FL's ankle?

Get unstuck and move on, IMO. <hr /></blockquote>


Dear Alfie, no sir he does not, this guy is like the energizer bunny, he does not stop, stalkers do not stop, they must be stopped. Just ask your self this question, would any normal functioning person do this to another person or persons. What would posses him to do such a thing, to post non stop lies and slanders, criminal acts and sins against God. It would be a person who is one, not playing with a full deck obviously, but who is also seriously mentally deranged. That one is of course a given.
What we know about the guy is he is of couse a loser, has no life other than to sit behind his cpu all night long when he should be out playing pool. He can't run 3 balls and is nothing but a sl4. His wife kicks him out after 3 months, he was wearing her panties and bra. He gets kicked off of the police dept after 16 years, the rumor is framing people and having a good time with little boys. His attacks using the wolf handles has gotten him kicked off of 3 boards now, he plays fun nice guy on this board, good cop, then he uses his wolfs to attack others and get his cookies off hurting other people, bad cop. He does this because his life is trashed and worthless. You must accept, the man posts lies, lies he just makes up, lies intended to hurt, to destroy other peoples name, reputation and ability to work and to support their family. That in it self, is very great evil and a criminal act. Why this board continues to support his criminal acts is a mystery to all, if that does not deserve a total ban, then what does? The sickos, the crazy's, need to be driven off of these boards, people are sick of his non stop attacks, they don't want to hear it, they want to talk pool. The only answer is to be rid of the attacker, Rack em up, take him out, off of the board, and you have peace, it is that simple. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

rackmup
10-05-2003, 09:09 PM
Man Larry...you are truly way out there.

Regards,

Ken

Popcorn
10-05-2003, 09:38 PM
I was there many times and played in some tournaments. I don't remember it being anything like that. There was a back room where you played that was separate if I remember right where the players matched up. It was a public room and people went there and enjoyed themselves. Did you play there often or play in any of his tournaments? In your bio you say you only played for a few years and quit around 71 or 72. Then did not play again till the late 90's. When did you gain all this road experience you accuse Fran of not having? My guess is you are repeating stories you have heard here or there and have no real experience of your own at all. I read your account of your tournament experience this week and I get a pretty good picture of your speed. LOL. He had to let you take your shot over, and you took it?

CarolNYC
10-06-2003, 03:54 AM
Fran,
Im sure thats NOT what Mike meant!I've read a few of these posts and just want to say:
I've NEVER been in an arena thats TOTALLY silent!
I've NEVER played an opponent who was constantly or obnoxiously loud!
Im totally oblivious to whats going on at the next table cause I could care less!
And when I miss a 9-ball, I would rather yell "son-of-a-b#tch" then walk away smiling and there lies the MENTAL DISCIPLINE!
I dont know about anyone else, but I was brought up to express my feelings, when I hurt, I cry, when I love someone, I tell'em and when I DONT like someone, I tell'em ,too!As far as the men , I think some of them are just expressing the way they feel-the norm-but now its all about suppressing those feelings of disgust and frustration-the abnorm!Oh well!
Carol~has to suppress but would rather EXPRESS!ha ha ha

Fran Crimi
10-06-2003, 05:11 AM
Carol, I'm pretty sure I know what Mike meant.

Consider yourself lucky that you haven't yet come across the type of player we're talking about. You'll know it when you do. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran ~~ Total silence exists only in outer space and in coffins.

road runner 711
10-06-2003, 10:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr> Man Larry...you are truly way out there.

Regards,

Ken <hr /></blockquote>


When in the world are you going to wake up and smell the coffee. Give it up, give it a rest, nobody cares. Just do not attack or slander any one, that is all you have to do.
Why is that so hard for you to understand? Who on this board ever gave you permission to make fun of any one at their expense. Who on this board ever gave you permission to tell lies about others, or to ruin their names. It's quite simple, you just stop, and you of couse should apologize to all of those you hurt. Then you can go in peace. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

10-06-2003, 11:08 AM

Popcorn
10-06-2003, 11:53 AM
Quote
"Fran, but she keeps ignoring me LOL, as she ignores my post. Thus I like to take pot shots at her every once in a while, just to stir things up."

I don't know, she may be making the right choice.
For your other comment, you can tell from where someone is looking what they are doing. If their eyes go from diamond to diamond drawing imaginary lines on the table, they are not just guessing.

Popcorn
10-06-2003, 12:33 PM
Quote
"or if you were you were too old and deaf to hear all the noise or either during non busy times."

Since you choose to take a shot at me, I would say, again from your bio, when you were there, it was more like a Friday night with your date. You were so new to the game and knew so little of what was going on around you, you might as well have been in another dimension. Would you even know Beanie or Charlie if you saw them?
.

10-06-2003, 04:28 PM

10-06-2003, 05:26 PM

Popcorn
10-06-2003, 06:33 PM
Well at least we know where your old lady gets it from, the real you is sure coming out, what a jerk. I see now why you are such a fan of Larry.

plato 17
10-06-2003, 07:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Well at least we know where your old lady gets it from, the real you is sure coming out, what a jerk. I see now why you are such a fan of Larry. <hr /></blockquote>


Why do you guys blame everything on poor old fast? It does however sound like he is rubbing off on some one. popcorn, if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen, your corns will start popping. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

8 ball ho
10-06-2003, 07:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Quote

For your other comment, you can tell from where someone is looking what they are doing. If their eyes go from diamond to diamond drawing imaginary lines on the table, they are not just guessing. <hr /></blockquote>

Heh, plenty of people shoot that way. They follow the intended path of the cue ball. Its called shooting by feel. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are using the diamond system either. And conversely, you probably don't even know this because you probably don't even know what the diamond system is since I don't think you can add 1 + 1 anyway, but: At one time for instance I used the system outlined in Hoppe's book while I played billiards. I calculated where the balls were by counting on what diamonds they were on and how far off the rail they were, etc, and then with addition and subtraction I could tell which diamonds you must hit to go from point A to point B etc. This system was much more complicated compared to those I have been shown by Scott Lee, Tony Robles, and Mika Immonen to name a few. Go watch the Grady Matthews tape on using the diamond system. He can do this in his sleep, and can just look at a table and calculate which diamonds to hit without his eyes going from rail to rail. On 2 rail kick shots that Mr. Robles taught us, you notice where the object ball is (which diamond and how far up) and then you know from memorizing the system where to hit the first rail. And take careful note here, one's eyes again are not dancing around the cushions like little itsie bitsie calculators.

Old man, you are full of bull, and I really don't care if I call you out on this one.

Regards again, WW <hr /></blockquote>


Oh white wolf, this board is filled with whimps and pimps, but you sound like a real man, you are fogging up my dive mask. Divers do do it deeper. Come dive with me on your next vacation. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

8 ball ho
10-06-2003, 07:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote MikeM:</font><hr> It's very entertaining though. And that's part of why the fans pay their money - to be entertained.

MM <hr /></blockquote>


Fran, that is exactly why, what you do, does not draw flies.


Holy somokes. Do you have ANY idea what it takes to play great pool under the pressure of professional competition and in front of hundreds of people?

Any idea at all?

AND you want us to entertain you with side shows while we're doing it?

Anything else while you're at it? Maybe a little tap dance between racks?

Sheesh.

OK, I'm being a little sarcastic /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif but really, Mike, if you want to see great pool, you can't expect side shows to go along with it. It's a rarity and when it does happen it's very disrupting to the other players.

Can't you just settle for paying your money to see great pool?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

8 ball ho
10-06-2003, 07:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr> Perhaps what might save pool and bring it back into prime time would be running a match right behind the new hit show queer eye, and feature "Fast" Larry Guninger playing Wonder Dog a race to 12 with Guninger having his mouth duct-taped shut and Max, The Wonder Dog, chewing on his ankle. I can just see it now, Larry is bending over, his mouth straining against the binding qualities of the tape, hoping to break free and boast of imaginative World Titles, just as the camera comes up behind him and yo baby, Max grabs him by his sagging butt. We would have to have 3 cameras on that one, over head, behind and in front. It would sweep all of the ratings. They have tried every thing else on earth and cannot draw flies, so I say, let an old man play a more talented beagle.

Sorry...couldn't resist.

Ken (can't keep quiet all of the time) <hr /></blockquote>


Ken, are you really a peter puffer like they say?

Popcorn
10-06-2003, 08:25 PM
I should not have gone back and forth with him, I usually avoid the wack jobs.

plato 17
10-07-2003, 11:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I should not have gone back and forth with him, I usually avoid the wack jobs. <hr /></blockquote>

Well Popcorn, some never learn, jump in a pig pen, fight with a pig, you come out smelling like a pig, looking like a pig grunting like a pig. Live and learn. Fighting on the internet is like winning a race in the special Olympics, you are still retarded. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Eric.
10-07-2003, 12:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote plato 17:</font><hr> Fighting on the internet is like winning a race in the special Olympics, you are still retarded. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Larry,

Try: "Fighting on the Internet is like winning a race at the Special Olympics, even if you win, you're still Retarded." /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


Eric &gt;geez /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Rod
10-07-2003, 12:18 PM
Ok a reply, some think it is sharking and some dont. Wake me when it's my turn, this game is boring.

Rod

pooltchr
10-07-2003, 12:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote plato 17:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I should not have gone back and forth with him, I usually avoid the wack jobs. <hr /></blockquote>

Well Popcorn, some never learn, jump in a pig pen, fight with a pig, /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

It would appear that Plato is at least admitting what he really is!

8 ball ho
10-07-2003, 08:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote plato 17:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I should not have gone back and forth with him, I usually avoid the wack jobs. <hr /></blockquote>

Well Popcorn, some never learn, jump in a pig pen, fight with a pig, /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

It would appear that Plato is at least admitting what he really is! <hr /></blockquote>


Oh come on and tell me, I am just a damn dumb blond who can't figure this out, is he a pig, is he retarted, or did he give good advice you choose to make fun of instead. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

rackmup
10-08-2003, 03:32 AM
In case I wasn't clear:

"Man Larry...you are truly way out there."

Regards,

Ken

pooltchr
10-08-2003, 06:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 8 ball ho:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote plato 17:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I should not have gone back and forth with him, I usually avoid the wack jobs. <hr /></blockquote>

Well Popcorn, some never learn, jump in a pig pen, fight with a pig, /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

It would appear that Plato is at least admitting what he really is! <hr /></blockquote>


Oh come on and tell me, I am just a damn dumb blond who can't figure this out, is he a pig, is he retarted, or did he give good advice you choose to make fun of instead. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

did you mean "retarded"???????????

plato 17
10-08-2003, 08:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr> In case I wasn't clear:

"Man Larry...you are truly way out there."

Regards,


You rack em up are the one posting under at least 6 false names I can think of right now. You do that to attack people and to stir up things. You are the one using all of those wolf names. You play good guy on this board mostly, good cop, then you go after and trash people on other boards. You were one of the ones my mission was to expose, you and Yappin Wolf. Mission accomplished. Now every one knows who and what you really are. Has it not occured to you there is no fl on this board, and stop using my name to launch your attacks against him.

If you want to attack him, he posts under his own name, he does not hide under rocks like you do. Go to the chat board www.billiards-pool.net (http://www.billiards-pool.net), you will find him there, good hunting, stalk on, oh obsessed one.

Plato will be leaving this board very soon, I know that will be very distressing to you, but you will find a way to over come the blow I am sure. There is no need to stay, I only came in to drill you and yappin on your home turf under everyone noses. Be careful stalker, you can run, but you cannot hide from me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ken <hr /></blockquote>

ManlyShot
10-08-2003, 09:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote plato 17:</font><hr>You rack em up are the one posting under at least 6 false names I can think of right now. Now every one knows who and what you really are. Be careful stalker, you can run, but you cannot hide from me.<hr /></blockquote>

Plato_17, you just left AzB forum, and here you are. Didn't have enough fun on AzB?

ManlyShot